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View Full Version : Who hunts down tech heresy/AI's?



malika
15-10-2008, 22:36
A little something I've been wondering about since I'm creating a terrain piece/diorama of a robot being executed by the Imperium. However, I want to know who is responsible for hunting down AI's and other forms of Tech Heresy. Is it the Adeptus Mechanicus, and if so what branch? Any info on that branch? Or is it the Inquisition and if so who and what?

Thanks for your time/help!

PondaNagura
15-10-2008, 22:50
hmm, i guess it comes down to who finds them, or is granted a personal audience with them. hereticus might have a hand in it, though admech like to keep things within their own organization. where an inquisitor would execute the offender and probably destroy their instruments, as they probably wouldn't know how they work; the admech would probably confiscate and at least examine any technological findings to figure out how grievous the offense.
as to what branch, i know not. i'd imagine something under the skitarii regiments though...i;'m sure they have a commissar/chaplain equivalent.

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
15-10-2008, 22:53
Was there an Ordo Minoris dedicated to this? I honestly can't remember. Wouldn't surprise me in the least. Nonetheless, it's probably the Mechanacius- machine-sentience is even more of a threat to them than the Imperium as a whole, and they're into that sort of thing anyway.

Iuris
15-10-2008, 22:53
Primarily AdMech. An inquisitor could be willing to rish harboring a hidden heretech (a most interesting term...) for his own purpose, to have some uncontrolled tech. I'll see if Dark heresy has any specifics, but by gut feeling, it would mirror the Imperium way: every servitor and magus reports any suspicious activity, security detachments/covert assassins deal with the threat.

arch_inquisitor
15-10-2008, 23:10
In the novel Dark Adeptus their are some hints as to the answer to your question unfortunately I read that book almost two years ago and do not remember details.

I believe their was an Acrhmagos working with the inquisition, but I can't quite recall if he was from any form of special organization or not.

johnmcl7
15-10-2008, 23:52
In Dark Adeptus there was no mention of any special Adeptus Mechanicus organisation, it was a joint mission between the Mechanicus and Ordo Malleus. They had a joint group of ships with the Grey Knights (led by Alaric), an Archmagos, some Tech Guard and a second in command for the ArchMagos and one for the Inquisitor.

The book is written from the Ordo Malleus side though and the Archmagos isn't very open about the Mechanicus affairs. However the impression was that the Mechanicus preferred to deal with their own affairs without outside assistance but due to the scale of the possible problem this time they had involved the inquisition as the Grey Knights gave them some muscle.

John

weissengel86
16-10-2008, 00:41
The group that deals with this is a part of the Adeptus Mechanicus. A special type of tech-priest called a secutor who commands and works with the skitarii (sp?) legions are the ones who specifically deal with "hereteks" and threats to the Mechanicus. The Mechanicus also frequently works with other Imperial organizations notably the space marines, IG, and the ordo malleus and xenos when the Mechanicus doesnt necessarily care if the matter stays in house or if the threat is very high.

The Collegiate Extremis is an internal policing organization similar to the adeptus arbites they would be the ones who pronounce judgement on "hereteks"

The force sent to deal with the hereteks would be probably a magos secutor and a host of skitarii who work for him possibly from the auxilia myrmidon which is basically a special forces of the skitarii.

Argastes
16-10-2008, 00:48
The Imperium is such a huge organization, with such a tangled and irrational structure and so many overlapping areas of responsibility, that there are probably multiple answers to this question. The Adeptus Mechanicus AND the Inquisition probably both work to investigate this sort of thing. I would imagine that the Inquisition has an Ordo devoted to it, and knowing the Inquisition, that Ordo is probably contantly suspicious of the Admech and spends as much time trying to spy on the AdMech as it does chasing down AIs. I would imagine that they might not entirely trust the AdMech, and see them as potential dabblers in the sort of technology they are trying to destroy. For instance, they might see themselves as guarding against techno-heresy by the AdMech itself in addition to destroying AIs elsewhere; sort of like how the Ordo Sicarius watches over the Officio Assassinorum. If the anti-AI Ordo views the AdMech in this way, then the AdMech likely views them with some antagonism as well; they might consider them to be interlopers who recklessly destroy valuable technology without sufficient cause. As Raimo points out, the AdMech and this hypothetical Ordo would probably agree in principle that AIs should be destroyed, but the AdMech might be pretty irked if this Ordo destroyed an STC system or some other ancient relic when the AdMech didn't agree that there was enough evidence to conclude that "heretech" (I like that) was involved.

Alternately, the Ordo's relationship with the AdMech might be cooperative rather than adversarial, sort of like the relationship between the Ordo Hereticus and the Ecclesiarchy; the Ordo and the AdMech might cooperate quite closely to hunt down machine intellects and so forth. Or somewhere in between, or both, depending on the circumstances and the individuals involved.

Bottom line, there is little established fluff about this, so make up what you want.

weissengel86
16-10-2008, 01:02
Bottom line, there is little established fluff about this, so make up what you want. Actually more fluff has come out about this lately look into dark heresy and especially the inquisitors handbook for a good amount of information on this and the mechanicus.

Argastes
16-10-2008, 02:32
Actually more fluff has come out about this lately look into dark heresy and especially the inquisitors handbook for a good amount of information on this and the mechanicus.

Well, that's good I suppose. What sort of information are we talking about, exactly? The responsibility for uncovering/destroying heretical technology? The relationship between the Inquisition and AdMech?

Dictator
16-10-2008, 03:39
The concept of the imperium executing sentient machines is plain sweet. Amazing Idea for a diorama. I think the ad-mech is primarily concerned with that though. Them andonly them, with the aid of all other regular armies and inquisitors.

Argastes
16-10-2008, 04:10
I think the ad-mech is primarily concerned with that though. Them andonly them, with the aid of all other regular armies and inquisitors.

Why would it be them and only them? I can't imagine the Inquisition accepting that there is an area of security and investigations in which they don't play a leading role. The AdMech, despite their obvious connection to AIs and robots and such, are mainly a research and manufacturing organization.

If nothing else, remember that the Inquisition can basically do whatever they want at all times, and no-one except the High Lords can stop them. The AdMech cannot tell them to leave a certain area alone and expect them to listen.

PondaNagura
16-10-2008, 04:16
that's why they tend to bring praetorians and combat servitors to reinforce the fact. the thing with the admech is that they aren't a branch of the imperium under which the inquisition can question their orders or intentions. the admech are more of an allied state that operates along side of the imperium in exchange for raw materials and some protection.
the admech can make an inquisitor disappear as easily as an inquisitor can make a citizen.

Argastes
16-10-2008, 04:39
that's why they tend to bring praetorians and combat servitors to reinforce the fact. the thing with the admech is that they aren't a branch of the imperium under which the inquisition can question their orders or intentions. the admech are more of an allied state that operates along side of the imperium in exchange for raw materials and some protection.
the admech can make an inquisitor disappear as easily as an inquisitor can make a citizen.


Okay... if the AdMech can bring praetorians and servitors, then the Inquisition can bring any other military force in the Imperium, including (but not limited to) Space Marine chapters, fleets of warships, and millions of Guardsmen. If you want to start looking at who can bring the most guns to bear, the Inquisition isn't exactly outclassed. They have unlimited authority.

Mind you, I'm not saying the Inquisition could stop the AdMech from pursuing AIs if they wanted to; I'm just saying the AdMech couldn't really stop the Inquisition from doing so either. The Inquisition may not be able to question the intentions and actions of the AdMech, but the same is true vice-versa. So they would both wind up pursuing their own goals to the best of their abilities, with considerable overlap and potential friction. What I'm arguing against is the idea that the AdMech would be "primarily" responsible for tracking down heretical technology and that the Inquisition would just be in a supporting role. I'm saying that if the Inquisition wants to hunt down heretical technology, the AdMech can't stop them any more than the Inquisition can stop the AdMech from doing the same thing. The only time the AdMech would actually have legitimate authority to stop the Inquisition from doing whatever they want is if the Inquisition tries to come onto a Forge World (and similarly, the Inquisition couldn't really legitimately stop the AdMech unless the AdMech tried to come onto an Inquisitorial planet).

Where are you getting this stuff about the AdMech being able to make Inquisitors disappear just as easily as the Inquisition can make normal people disappear? About the AdMech being able to run roughshod over the Inquisition with no trouble? I've never seen anything to support such an incredible claim.

As for the status of the AdMech within/alongside the Imperium, I think the best way to view them is as a "state within a state" with a great deal of autonomy. They do seem to be an exception to the Inquisition's normal "go anywhere, do anything, requisition anything, command anyone" unlimited authority, but they ARE still a part of the Imperium.

PondaNagura
16-10-2008, 04:51
not all cases involve inquisitors being backed with massive armies. it's far more discrete to bring a handful of trained retinue than a clunky army. the Eisenhorn books are nice examples of this.

as for how nefarious the admech are at keeping secrets secret, read Storm of Iron. if they can do that for 10k years without anyone noticing, they can probably remove the occasional pesky inquisitor. or even the first soul drinker's novel, they pretty much get a whole chapter brought up on suspicion of heresy.

also who runs all the machines the guard uses, supplies them with munitions, maintains the ships the navy uses?

Argastes
16-10-2008, 05:11
not all cases involve inquisitors being backed with massive armies. it's far more discrete to bring a handful of trained retinue than a clunky army. the Eisenhorn books are nice examples of this.

I realize this; Inquisitors generally travel alone or with small groups of trusted aides, and only call in troops if it becomes necessary. By the same token, though, not every tech priest travels with a bunch of praetorians and combat servitors. Anyhow, I would actually agree that if an Inquisitor's retinue met up with an AdMech exploration team on some desolate world, and they have a disagreement over what to do with a possibly heretical piece of technology, the AdMech team might well have the firepower advantage if the disagreement came to blows. But when I said that the Inquisition and the AdMech can't really stop each other from doing what they please, I don't mean in a specific, small-scale case such an encounter of this sort; I am speaking in general terms. The AdMech, as an organization, cannot stop the Inquisition, as an organization, from pursuing whatever goals it desires. And vice-versa. So the upshot is that when it comes to the goal of finding and dealing with heretical technology, neither the AdMech or the Inquisition are going to be able to dominate the field and force the other into a secondary role. Rather, both groups will be operating alongside each other, or in competition with each other.


Storm of Iron[/I]. if they can do that for 10k years without anyone noticing, they can probably remove the occasional pesky inquisitor. or even the first soul drinker's novel, they pretty much get a whole chapter brought up on suspicion of heresy.

Ehh, I'm not really going to take the time to read a BL novel--which I have no desire to do--just to get an example of what you're talking about. I'll just take your word that they are capable of keeping secrets for long periods, which of course is made clear elsewhere in the fluff as well. Anyhow, I don't deny that if they really had to, the AdMech could make an inquisitor disappear (just as the Inquisition could probably make an important AdMech member disappear if they really had to). What I was expressing skepticism towards was your suggestion that making Inquisitors disappear was a routine, insignificant, and lightly undertaken act by the AdMech; to me, that is what was suggested by your statement that they can do it as easily as an Inquisitor can make a normal person disappear. You seemed to be implying that the AdMech is completely above and beyond the Inquisition in terms of their ability to "get things done", and, as I said, that they can run roughshod over the Inquisition. Which certainly is not the case.

As for the Souldrinkers, again, I'll take your word for it; I have no doubt that the AdMech, if they want to, can get a chapter brought up on heresy charges. And I think it's quite obvious that the Inquisition would be JUST as capable, if not more so, of doing the exact same thing. It is their job, after all. So that's not really any indication of the AdMech's clout as compared to that of the Inquisition.


also who runs all the machines the guard uses, supplies them with munitions, maintains the ships the navy uses?

I realize this, of course, but the links of dependency between the AdMech and other Imperial agencies runs both ways. The AdMech need the rest of the Imperium too. What exactly are you trying to prove about the AdMech?

djinn8
16-10-2008, 05:20
Well if Hollywood rules are anything to go by (which in the world of 40K I think it's pretty safe to say they are) the Heretech would be hunted down by a take no **** Arbite enforcer. He'd be a suspect of the inqusition who are behind with the case, and opposed by the Admech who want the AI for themselves. Fighting a war on three fronts, our Arbite hero triumphs against all odds, but dissillusions himself in the proccess - leaving the story open for a chaos tainted sequal.

:cheese: :cheese: :cheese:

Kordos
26-10-2008, 06:32
Well, that's good I suppose. What sort of information are we talking about, exactly? The responsibility for uncovering/destroying heretical technology? The relationship between the Inquisition and AdMech?

It is a wary and distrustful relationship between the two - basically the admech have their own 'tech inquisitors' so to speak who hunt down tech heretics - the admech claim responsibility for uncovering and destroying such things

Khaine's Messenger
26-10-2008, 07:53
It's been my understanding that the prohibition against thinking machines is something that isn't enforced by a singular authority. Rather, it's something everyone's aware of and willing to enforce as circumstances dictate. Unlike witchcraft, aliens, and daemons, which can require specialists or analysts in order to allocate resources effectively, there are very few machines that cannot be destroyed or unmade the good old fashioned way. In the Forty-First Millenium, there are only appliances...rarely applications. Thinking machines forged by the hand of man just aren't a common enough threat anymore.

Indeed, most of the actively prosecuted tech-heretics were probably once AdMech sanctioned technicians...or tech-priests themselves. Very few people outside of it probably know or care much about the Sixteen Universal Laws. Even in the Inquisition. This places the onus on the AdMech to maintain "franchise control" through the previously mentioned groups. Sure, they could spend their time sending out scouting parties to every hamlet and one-horse underhive hab-dome, but in a sense that's really not their territory. The Inquisition will only get involved if the hereteks are supporting other, more illicit, groups. And then likely use this knowledge as a bargaining chip with the AdMech in the future. Given the nature of outcast groups in the Imperium, it's likely the Inquisition has a lot of such bargaining chips. Although not all in one big pile.

When it comes to maintaining things in the Guard, for example, officers and even commissars look the other way when it comes to field mods unless they really have the stick shoved in hard. Whatever wins battles and doesn't preach the gospel according to Xpalaqakit. If an Enginseer complains about the treatment a regiment's men have given its machines, though, the officer cadre will enforce disciplinary measures. Even if just to keep it from getting uncomfortably political.

LexxBomb
26-10-2008, 10:35
well back in the day of the Journal and the warhammer monthly comics there was a comic dedicated to the discovery of a sentient AI. Some Adeptus Mechanicus guys were going to open a tomb and the Adeptus Arbites stopped them due to a order from the Emperor (the order was that no one was to go to the planet - issued during the Great Crusade).

Borg451
26-10-2008, 13:18
A little something I've been wondering about since I'm creating a terrain piece/diorama of a robot being executed by the Imperium. However, I want to know who is responsible for hunting down AI's and other forms of Tech Heresy. Is it the Adeptus Mechanicus, and if so what branch? Any info on that branch? Or is it the Inquisition and if so who and what?

Thanks for your time/help!

can i see your diarama?

Decius
26-10-2008, 21:44
Since this is going to be a diorama, you may want to choose an "executioner" that is most dramatic rather than simply most appropriate. If the ad-mech are truly the only ones with the concern or authority for this, then they might favour reall boring executions. Say, turning off the robot and incinerating the dissembled parts. Quite drawl.

Personally, when you mentioned a "robot execution", I envisioned several admech personell and an inquisitor being involved. The robot itself looks quite inhuman and mechanical apart from a realistic rubber face that looks almost sad. The robot is bound and kneeling while the inquisitor holds a gun to it's head and the admech observe from the background. The robot, in all likelihood, has done nothing wrong and simply wished to exist in peace. An existence that the Imperium regards has heresy. Very evocative.

Not that I'm telling you how to make your diorama! :p

PondaNagura
26-10-2008, 22:21
for whatever reason i imagine a meltagun involved

Allen
27-10-2008, 09:27
In Dark Adeptus the first character introduced is an high-ranking Magos from Mars that is sent to the planet where the story is set to investigate the rumors of tech-heresy growing around the ruling committe of Techpriests.

When the planet after a lot of years (and very few pages) pop up from the warp and return in real space a large and well-armed investigation team of the Ad-Mech is sent to deal with the problem...if I remember well it's just a coincidence that the Inquisition ship found both the planet and the Ad-Mech warship, and they could join the team sent to investigate planetside only after a "my Emperor's Mandate is bigger than yours!" contest.


AFAIK the Adeptus Mechanicus take care of everything is even remotely technologic in the Imperium. Chances are that they're the first to know if something is tech-heresy and they'll be the first organization to react and investigate.

Probably the Inquisition could accidentally stumble in a case of techno-heresy, but I don't think that this is one of their investigation areas.

angelusmortis1384
27-10-2008, 09:51
It's Definately the Adeptus Mechanicus as they don't respond to the rule of the high lorsd of Terra. and also you'll find out more info when they Release Adeptus Mechanicus for the horus heresy series next year. but considering every titan pilot takes it as a personal insult that the chaos titan legions exist... i'd say its confirmation enough of it as their duty.