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View Full Version : How much of Fantasy is "Herohammer"?



shakespear
17-10-2008, 03:33
Long story short a few of us want to start Fantasy (or start back) but a few vets are not so keen.

They say tooled up characters/heros really wreck the game.

What say you?

Concilliator
17-10-2008, 03:36
just limit them among yourselves plenty of tourney limit special characters and tooled up power builds

shakespear
17-10-2008, 03:38
just limit them among yourselves plenty of tourney limit special characters and tooled up power builds



Really? What limits do they set? Are they limited in RTT?

Ward.
17-10-2008, 03:44
I say few tooled up heroes are capable of breaking the game these days.

Ginger_Dwarf
17-10-2008, 03:49
vets should know better!

you tool up a character he becomes a mighty attractive target to most if not all armys and will rarely make it past turn 3...death by:
a) by himself - cannonball to the face
or
b) in a unit - rear charged + comabt res + hacked down

a tooled up character is far to easy to avoid and will rarely have an effect in a game other than limited other choices and weakening the rest of your army and allowing the selection of sacrificial units an easier choice for your oponent

Used Car Salesman
17-10-2008, 03:52
Yeahh Fantasy is nothing like Herohammer. Herohammer was ridiculous. Especially mage lords on dragons. But enough about that. Yes some lords and sc's can really make the game less fun but if you are just going to be playing with your friends just make sure you all are clear on not taking extreme cheese and/or special characters.

orks2134
17-10-2008, 03:54
It's been nearly a decade since a character was so powerful as to run rampant over the Warhammer field of battle.

Herohammer is long, long gone. If anything, characters are maybe even a bit underpowered now.

Used Car Salesman
17-10-2008, 03:58
If anything, characters are maybe even a bit underpowered now.

Some heroes are underpowered, but some lords are also pretty ridiculous, and others can be made to be pretty cheesy. Examples are the bloodthirster, DE lord with the reverse 2+ ward.

orks2134
17-10-2008, 05:12
Some heroes are ...



Ok, some then.

Nedar
17-10-2008, 06:17
Herohammer is by NO means a part of Fantasy anymore. Most powerful heroes are Bloodthirsters (greater daemons in general are tough but BTs are godlike), the new Chaos Lords...even the Hero ones are beasts, Vampire Lords aren't bad, Special Characters of course, and certain Lords with special equipment sets.

Fantasy is how it should be: A tactical game where a better play can beat a more powerful list any day of the week if he knows how to play. Hope to see you in the Fantasy ranks and hopefully abandoning the epicly fail world of 40k :D

Morph
17-10-2008, 09:29
But GW are putting an emphasis on Special Characters nowadays, making them part of the army list rather than relying on opponent's permission, and giving each army about 10 of the things. And most of the recent books have at least one SC able to take on units by themselves, or have overpowering magic or some special rule that screws over the opponent.

So GW themselves seem to be trying to take us back to the days of Herohammer, which seems like rather a big mistake.

(Shakespear - I should say though that if you are just playing friendly games you can just ban special characters)

kramplarv
17-10-2008, 09:36
avoid named characters and you should be fine. :)

other than that, dragonlords and bloodthirster are the only megakicklords.
and they are killable. :) but if a lord/hero is not on a dragon he is not so powerful so he can dictate the game.

Phoenix Blaze
17-10-2008, 09:44
Characters now tend to be boosters for combat, rather than the thing you use to munch through units. Like, a Wargor in a unit of Bestigor will allow that units to put out a further three strength six attacks. Hardly game breaking.

But old Chaos Lords with a Khornate Daemon Weapon (gives him the fighting stats of a bloodthirster) on a mount in a unit of chosen khorne knights, now that'll just roll right across the field.

Generally it's over-powered units rather than characters than win games in Fantasy. But, then again, if I ever had to face Archaon, I'd make sure to flank and rear that guy as much as possible. Hopefully I'll get 8CR just from a combo of ranks, outnumbering, flank, rear and a standard.

silashand
17-10-2008, 09:46
Some heroes are underpowered, but some lords are also pretty ridiculous, and others can be made to be pretty cheesy. Examples are the bloodthirster, DE lord with the reverse 2+ ward.

And opinions vary on what constitutes overpowered anyway as they work well vs some armies and not at all vs others. For instance, the DE lord mentioned above works great vs high strength characters, but against average strength ones with an armour ignoring sword they are hardly overpowering at all. Depends on the situations really.

As to the OP's question, IMO herohammer is dead and gone. Its last whimpers were at the end of 5th edition thankfully and 7th is a much different game.

Cheers, Gary

The Red Scourge
17-10-2008, 10:06
... if I ever had to face Archaon, I'd make sure to flank and rear that guy as much as possible. Hopefully I'll get 8CR just from a combo of ranks, outnumbering, flank, rear and a standard.

Except that he'd outmaneuver a ranked regiment anytime and the old archaon didn't need a unit and his horse had T5 and two 5+ wards (one Archaon and one Daemonic). The new one will be even worse, as you won't be able to target his only weakness, the horse :p

I had a lot of fun learning the game and using Archie while learning, but sooner or later you grow bored with these SCs and like to see the rest of the army do something else but cheer the SC on :)

Gorbad Ironclaw
17-10-2008, 10:29
But GW are putting an emphasis on Special Characters nowadays, making them part of the army list rather than relying on opponent's permission

It's been that way for the past many years. Special Characters were not any more opponents permission than anything else in the army was in any of the 6th edition books. The special characters online was, but none of the characters in the books was. All that have changed is that GW moved them from the back of the army list to the front, that's it. And are making more of them, but that's it.

You are still free to use them or not just as you always have been.

As far as herohammer goes, doesn't really exist. There are some beastly characters out there, but if you know what you are doing they are not winning the game all by themselves anymore. Nor will a mage lord annihilate the opponents army in turn one or things like that.

Nedar
17-10-2008, 10:54
There is one instance I can think of that is reminiscent of herohammer...my Vampire Lord (Red Fury, Infinite Hatred and Blood Drinker) took on an entire unit of witch elves and black guard with ASF by himself.

I know that this character can take on entire ranked up units by himself, but they have to be squishy...and a string of really bad rolls can kill my entire army. Though getting 8 kills out of a possible 8 against goblins is always fun :)

Urgat
17-10-2008, 11:17
Long story short a few of us want to start Fantasy (or start back) but a few vets are not so keen.

They say tooled up characters/heros really wreck the game.

What say you?

I say it's nothing like it used to be in 4th/5th edition. Sure, there's still crazy special characters, but I don't see heroes easily cleaving their way through entire units, on their own, anymore.

Arkturas
17-10-2008, 11:29
Firstly the cap on number of characters is much lower than "Herohammer" edition. Then there's the magic item points limit. You really can't build a unit destroying character and make them unkillable any more. All the most powerful magic items cost too much to have the strongest attack and defense items on a single character. The SC's are usually stronger and of course large flying monsters are dangerous but you've got to be brave to even consider a single character charge against a ranked unit head on (even on a dragon).

Duke Georgal
17-10-2008, 12:32
Long story short a few of us want to start Fantasy (or start back) but a few vets are not so keen.

They say tooled up characters/heros really wreck the game.

What say you?

Some of them do.

Just try to find players that feel the same as you do.

Lordsaradain
17-10-2008, 12:45
7th edition is definetly alot more herohammer than 6th.

EvC
17-10-2008, 12:56
I think HeroHammer can exist, but only if players REALLY make their list in that manner. I once had a game where my Vampire Lord killed 8 Night Goblins in one round of combat, and broke my opponent's unit with Shaman Lord, Shaman and BSB as a result. My opponent was very miffed that a single character could do that by himself, but if we were to look at it objectively, it was his fault for putting all his eggs in one basket, plus my Lord had suffered 2 wounds due to crumble the turn before. And, let's face it, they were Goblins. If there's anything a millenia-old 445 point Vampire Lord should be good at killing en masse, it's Goblins. So I don't see that as a problem.

But I've faced some Dark Elf lists where I really do get the impression it's too much; a friend of mine is going to a comped tournament, they told him his dragunline wasn't acceptable, so he added more infantry instead, but used Assassins to ensure they all had an ASF bomb in them- so no matter if they were flank or rear-charged he'd still be able to do massive damage. Then he had to lose the Dragon entirely... so rather than just loading up on more troops, he replaced it with more token infantry and an Assassin in each unit. Each Assassin geared to make 5-7 ASF Hatred S+1 attacks per turn, for a total of 8 mostly-uberkilly character models in a game at just under 3000 points. That is HeroHammer, and I think it's quite lame, to be honest.

Ixquic
17-10-2008, 13:10
I think HeroHammer can exist, but only if players REALLY make their list in that manner. I once had a game where my Vampire Lord killed 8 Night Goblins in one round of combat, and broke my opponent's unit with Shaman Lord, Shaman and BSB as a result. My opponent was very miffed that a single character could do that by himself, but if we were to look at it objectively, it was his fault for putting all his eggs in one basket, plus my Lord had suffered 2 wounds due to crumble the turn before. And, let's face it, they were Goblins. If there's anything a millenia-old 445 point Vampire Lord should be good at killing en masse, it's Goblins. So I don't see that as a problem.

But I've faced some Dark Elf lists where I really do get the impression it's too much; a friend of mine is going to a comped tournament, they told him his dragunline wasn't acceptable, so he added more infantry instead, but used Assassins to ensure they all had an ASF bomb in them- so no matter if they were flank or rear-charged he'd still be able to do massive damage. Then he had to lose the Dragon entirely... so rather than just loading up on more troops, he replaced it with more token infantry and an Assassin in each unit. Each Assassin geared to make 5-7 ASF Hatred S+1 attacks per turn, for a total of 8 mostly-uberkilly character models in a game at just under 3000 points. That is HeroHammer, and I think it's quite lame, to be honest.

Yeah I think making characters unit upgrades was a bad idea since it requires the player to police himself. Add in the unkillable Dreadlord with an extra d3 attacks at +3 strength in an ASF ItP unit and it gets even sillier.

We aren't at the point where hero-hammer was the entire game but there are times when I think we're getting close...

EvC
17-10-2008, 13:28
It depends on your opponent, really. The one in question has very little concept of restraint, but at least he's fairly original with his stupid armies.

Ixquic
17-10-2008, 14:03
It depends on your opponent, really. The one in question has very little concept of restraint, but at least he's fairly original with his stupid armies.

I have to admit his answer to a bad comp score was to take out everything they didn't like and replace it with assassins is pretty hilarious.

Concilliator
17-10-2008, 14:05
hmmmm I was hoping that since I returned the rules would reflect more dependence on the units :(

deep sadness

again though--- special characters can be limited in local games, you can even limit the amount of gear or use -- like those assassins , only allow one.--- there is any number of mitigation one can do to fix the herohammer problem.

theunwantedbeing
17-10-2008, 14:28
Vampire lords with certain setups are generally the closest you get to hero-hammer these days.
A bloodthirster well.....he's a greater daemon, he's supposed to be insanely powerful and he also has a rather high starting cost to back it up....so he's allowed rather more lee-way than other things that could be considered hero-hammer.

I do see rather too much emphasis on taking 4 character's a 2k which could feasably be classed a "hero-hammer".

vinny t
17-10-2008, 14:28
I was not here for the "Herohammer" era. But I believe that heroes are pivotal to winning but can no means wipe out a fully ranked infintry unit by themselves in one turn. A bloodthirster could do an adverage of 6 casulities, enough to win by one if in a fully-ranked infintry unit's front. THen, if you can get a BSB's unit, or a Walking Dead warbannered up unit, or a Palaidn BSB virtue of +1 combat res unit into him as a countercharge, poof bye bye bloodthirster. In this edition it mostly takes charachtars and warmachines to kill the "flying gribblies" but it is easilly possible.

Gazak Blacktoof
17-10-2008, 14:30
If you want to point fingers at elements that are unbalanced its unwise to lay the blame at character choices as a whole. There are certainly characters that can make the game less interesting but there are whole units that can also do this.


However you choose to play its important to find people that choose to play in a style that complements your own i order to that it results in fun games for all.

BigbyWolf
17-10-2008, 15:37
I was around for the original HeroHammer days...enjoyed it just as much then as I do playing by todays rules.

*sniffs...wipes a nostalgic tear away* I do every now and then miss having a Black Orc Warlord with Silver Seal(Empire), Armour of Brilliance(Brettonian) and Hydra Blade (Dark Elves I believe...)...nothing like having a general who's -3 to hit, 2+ Save on foot, 4+dispel against all magic directed at him or his unit, and a sword that does d6 wounds per each wound caused...but times change, and I'm equally happy using the one I have now...

Ixquic
17-10-2008, 15:52
What was the item that you put on a cheap hero then challenged another hero and then you were warped into a stasis forever?

Ammanas
17-10-2008, 19:09
Heros and Lords are an essential part of the game and everything is balanced around their existence.
The fact is though - you can both have tooled up characters, you can both pound eachother with a lot of very very funny rules - that is where the fun comes in.

The only reason I have a lord in my dwarfs is to kill other lords!! The only reason I have thanes is because my warriors can't kill some things.

BigbyWolf
17-10-2008, 19:27
What was the item that you put on a cheap hero then challenged another hero and then you were warped into a stasis forever?

I think I may be wrong, but is it a Chaos Dwarf one?

Von Wibble
17-10-2008, 19:27
What was the item that you put on a cheap hero then challenged another hero and then you were warped into a stasis forever?

Black Gem of Gnar. Still available to chaos dwarfs using RH list. It ideally goes on a champion rather than hero, and wasn't forever, just until a 6 was rolled at the start of the turn.

4 characters in 2k herohammer?? Not with empire where my characters are cheap. Or goblins. I personally play 2500 mostly, and set a mental budget of 750 on characters. When facing daemons this goes up a bit though. I feel the game punishes you if you focus too much on characters at the moment , as it should be.

EvC - assassins are placed in the front rank when revealed so a rear charge would nullify this ASF bomb - as would a heavy cav + chariot charge (or even decent heavy infantry). Also a unit containing such a character is over 300pts so an army is very restricted in how many it can have if it wants to have any realistic mobility. I think the disadvantages make this perfectly fine.

BigbyWolf
17-10-2008, 19:34
Heros and Lords are an essential part of the game and everything is balanced around their existence.
The fact is though - you can both have tooled up characters, you can both pound eachother with a lot of very very funny rules - that is where the fun comes in.

That's exactly what happened, for every rock-hard general you could take yourself, there was always going to be someone with a Khorne General with Executioners Axe (that, boys and girls, was when frenzy meant DOUBLE attacks...leaving you with a general boasting 10 attacks with killing blow on a 4+!!!).

Von Wibble
18-10-2008, 11:18
Such a general did strike last though, even on charge. Any character capable of doing 3 wounds to a T5 model, albeit with 2+ save and 4+ ward (still not too hard with so many weapons available, potion of strength + frostblade could do it for example) had the beating of such a character. But they weren't as good against enemy RNF.

Herohammer was more like scissors/paper/stone in this sense.

logan054
18-10-2008, 12:13
Hero hammer is very much alive, when looking back at the older army books i have kicking about i think people forget that you could only spend 50% of you points on characters, exactly how hard is that to do with 7th ed? I think most armies can do that with relative ease (even without a dragon).

Khorne lords on juggers with a enchanted shield and daemon sword are very very hero hammer, -1+ armour save, 6+D6 attacks at strength 5+D3 (its also nearly half your points).

W0lf
18-10-2008, 12:47
Hero hammer can exist but you can beat a list with 1,000 pts of heros just as you can beat one with a 150 pt general as the only character.

EvC
18-10-2008, 13:16
EvC - assassins are placed in the front rank when revealed so a rear charge would nullify this ASF bomb - as would a heavy cav + chariot charge (or even decent heavy infantry). Also a unit containing such a character is over 300pts so an army is very restricted in how many it can have if it wants to have any realistic mobility. I think the disadvantages make this perfectly fine.

Oh well, I suppose I can cheer that I can feasibly avoid the Assassin if I get a rear charge! Unfortunately, that is not especially likely to happen very often. A unit with such a character may be 300 points, but we're talking very competitively priced troops and a bargain-basement character here. It's not an expensive unit, and if the opponent has more of these units than you have units of cavalry and chariots then you are really limited. A challenge is nice, though. At just under 3000 points I don't think there really are any disadvantages, except that my opponent could be spending all the points on annoying Harpies and Shades instead I guess...

BigbyWolf
18-10-2008, 13:22
I don't think you can "Herohammer" with O&G any more, you can only really make your general uber defensive(Armour of Gork- +1T, Best Boss At 5+ward and enchanted shield, for a total 3+save on foot) , or extra hitty (ie axe of Ragnarork- adds rank bonus to A and S- 100pts, or the Orcy Runefang -same cost)...but you cant have one who's both...just one in the middle who's kinda tough and packs a fair punch...which seems fair to me.

Tokamak
18-10-2008, 13:25
I've stopped bothering with tooling up my O&G characters at all. They get some light or heavy armour and if they're lucky a shield, but that's it.

BigbyWolf
18-10-2008, 13:31
What!?! Not even giving them the Basha or the Kicking Boots? Poor defenseless Orcs ;-)...

The boyz
18-10-2008, 13:49
I would just advoid some of the named character's in the army book's and some of the Greater Deamon's of Chaos and you should be fine, Shakespear.

Generally the day's of 'Herohammer' are long gone.

logan054
18-10-2008, 21:04
I don't think you can "Herohammer" with O&G any more, you can only really make your general uber defensive(Armour of Gork- +1T, Best Boss At 5+ward and enchanted shield, for a total 3+save on foot) , or extra hitty (ie axe of Ragnarork- adds rank bonus to A and S- 100pts, or the Orcy Runefang -same cost)...but you cant have one who's both...just one in the middle who's kinda tough and packs a fair punch...which seems fair to me.


It would be hard but im sure you could have a pretty good crack at it


I would just advoid some of the named character's in the army book's and some of the Greater Deamon's of Chaos and you should be fine, Shakespear.

Generally the day's of 'Herohammer' are long gone.

Or not, i think most of the armies i see in my local GW store have arounf 800-900pts of characters, hell even the ogre guy with skragg has around 800pts of characters, again the max character you could have was 50%, im pretty sure you can manage more than in 7th ed, while wolf is right you can bet those armies unless your lacking in static combat res of course or its magic heavy army then it just bowls down to a game Yahtzee and some token model movement.

BigbyWolf
19-10-2008, 02:26
[QUOTE=logan054;3020882]It would be hard but im sure you could have a pretty good crack at it

Don't get me wrong, you can come up with some pretty decent all round characters still, I was just making the comparison to the old days, because if you still used those rules you could get a character with S8, T6, 7 attacks and a 5+ ward....now that's what I call Herohammer!

logan054
19-10-2008, 10:07
Hero hammer is a game dominated by characters, the exact stats having nothing to do with this, at the end of the day if half your points are going on characters they certainly are going overshadow you troops, be it with a level 4 and 3 level 2's or a dragon lord with some cronies.

I have seen some very disgusting characters in my time, i think the vampire lord with reroll hits and +1 attack per wound is again very close to hero hammer.

Von Wibble
19-10-2008, 13:24
I usually face that vampire. He has no ward save so my KB assassin is a scary proposition for him. He also doesn't have that high a potential for magic (by VC standards), and has to join a small or expensive unit, so if charged is in big trouble.

EVC - I was thinking in terms of 2000pts - an army with 3 of these units is already half made and will need to spend probably another 600 on units to protect flanks/rear (say a hydra, crossbowmen, dark riders, harpies) Leaving 500ish for characters and other nasties. An army with limited mobility, very low shooting, and probably very little magic, unless there are no fighty characters, in which case those warrior units have to house sorceresses and go up to nearly 500 pts.

At 3000 this of course changes because you can shore up those weaknesses. But not so much at 2000.