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Dark Primus
17-10-2008, 14:25
Do you take advantage of your opponent's misstake in the game when he forgets some special rules he could have used to save himself but forgot about it or do you help him fresh up his memory?

Exemple the armour value of tanks or the C'tan's abilities that removes all saves in close combat?

Octavius_Maximus
17-10-2008, 14:28
if your opponent forgets his own rules then he deserves to be punished for it.

Eryx_UK
17-10-2008, 14:29
I always remind my opponent if I notice he has missed or forgotten something, even if its detrimental to me.

Durandal
17-10-2008, 14:35
if your opponent forgets his own rules then he deserves to be punished for it.

What if he's a newb and unsure of the rules? (he asks out of self-interest)

Octavius_Maximus
17-10-2008, 14:42
Alright, sorry, i sounded too harsh (its 12:42 and im wired) I mean, if an opponent hits me with a Ctan and invites Invulnerables ill say thathe ignores them.

But if a player doesnt move a charge when he is supposed to, bad luck. If you forget, your troops suffer.

If its a newb, then he will learn from it, i hope.

Luckily i dont really face newbs ever.

totgeboren
17-10-2008, 14:50
I remind my opponent if he forgets something. I also tend to allow people to move models they forgot to move, even if they have begun shooting.

Dunno, I figure that if I do that, they will be more lenient towards me. Its more fun to play vs people who act relaxed and dont take it all to seriously, so its in my best interest to promote that kind of behaviour.

wolfspider
17-10-2008, 14:57
We under the guise of sportsmanship I can understand were if your opponent forgets something he should be reminded of that thing he forgot. But when you look at history wars are won or lost because one general had forgotten something or doesnt take advantage of something at the right time. As the general of your forces its your job to know what every unit can and cannot do and how to apply that to your battle. If you dont use your forces to the best of their abilitys then you should suffer the results of your failures. ;)

starlight
17-10-2008, 15:00
Depends...


Friendly/pickup game? A friendly nudge is in order.
New/inexperienced player? Ditto.
Tournament or other competitive environment (friendly cheesefests)? It would likely depend on my opponent. Good gamers would likely get a nudge, chowderheads might not...


I wouldn't ruin the game for a new player or spoil a quick game at the FLGS, but when the environment is specifically set up to be competitive, I'd expect my opponent to be prepared.

Helveticus
17-10-2008, 15:02
It depends. If they're a fun player instead of a WAAC player, absolutely. If they forgot something that's compulsory, i.e. Rolling for Reserves, I'll suggest backing the game up to that point if we're only a phase or so beyond it.

IJW
17-10-2008, 15:05
Friendly/pickup game? A friendly nudge is in order.
New/inexperienced player? Ditto.
Tournament or other competitive environment (friendly cheesefests)? It would likely depend on my opponent. Good gamers would likely get a nudge, chowderheads might not...
That pretty much covers it - entirely dependant on context and opponent.

Lord Damocles
17-10-2008, 15:08
If I notice that they've made a mistake I'll point it out (eg. Lictor has Flesh Hooks), but if they forget something and we move on I won't 'go back' to fix the error (eg. 'My Hive Tyrant had Flesh Hooks so he should have got to attack last turn...')

I'd expect an opponant to do the same too.

edward3h
17-10-2008, 15:09
If it's obvious my opponent intended to do something but forgot, then I'll generally let them. For example in my last 40k my opponent outflanked with some SM Scouts and was clearly within assault range of one of my squads, but forgot the assault move. I let him do it late because it was obvious.

On the flip side if I forget to make a move then I let it go - it was my mistake.

I tend not to remember the special rules of armies other than my own, so I would be unlikely to point those out, e.g. I wouldn't be any help when playing against Necrons.

Maynard
17-10-2008, 15:10
Yeah IJW and starlight that sounds like what I would do and it sounds fair.But it's true that noobs learn fast from mistakes like that some of which can be game winning,that's how I learned early on.

ehlijen
17-10-2008, 15:12
It depends:

Has he done so for me ever?
Do I actually know enough about his army to do that?
Is it a friendly game?

In general, I'd probably say yes, but circumstances might change that.

Redrivertears
17-10-2008, 15:12
Heya,

If an opponent makes a rules mistake (to his own disadvantage), I will always point it out to him.

If an opponent makes the mistake of forgetting to move or fire with a model, I will usually point it out to him, unless I feel he's been pushing the envelloppe a lot during the game. In that case I probably won't.

If an opponent makes a tactical mistake, I will sometimes point it out to him. Usually when I feel he's still new to the game and would benefit from the insight.

-Redrivertears-

Mr. Smuckles
17-10-2008, 15:13
Heck no!

But then again, we only play friendly games at my house.

Bookwrak
17-10-2008, 15:46
I always remind my opponent if I notice he has missed or forgotten something, even if its detrimental to me.
This, because I forget things too, like that one unit I meant to assault with, and it makes for a better atmosphere at the table when you're willing to be lenient on small oops.

Frankye
17-10-2008, 16:42
I usually donot point it out if he "forgets" to move something because mabe that's his strategy all along. But if he goes "oh, wait, I forgot, could I move this one" then I've no problems allowing it.

IAMNOTHERE
17-10-2008, 16:54
As many have already pointed out it's entirly situational.

If they make a rules mistake I always point it out - good or bad, rules are rules.

If they forget about wargear they bought then probably not as I have no idea if it's the model has it or not or if the player intends to use it.

If it's a movement mistake and it's a one off I'll allow.

If it's a tourny then all gloves are off apart from the rules. I don't expect my opponent to remind me in this situation either :)

Adra
17-10-2008, 16:55
This old chestnut of a thread? Yay!!!

When i read the thread title i thought you meant stealing from opponents when their back is turned...or flirting with them to distract them....

This, as in all things, context is king. If its a random person i belive to be good enough at the game then no mercy. if its a mate or a newb well maybe a little mercy...out of pitty.

AngryAngel
17-10-2008, 17:04
As I tend to run the games at my FLGS I would tend to always remind me opponent of his rules if I remember them as well. As well I will tell him possible good uses of his units to stimulate thought through out the game.

That said I want the players to play the game on their own so I won't remind them of charges or shooting at which targets. ( For if I do that who is really playing the game then ? ) I will however point out if I believe a mistake was made and why. Most times they'll agree and look out for it later. If they would ask to go back and redo it I normally allow it with good grace.

That said few of my players ever ask to go back. They just see it as a mistake and we're big on even if we make mistakes, remembering what it was and trying to pull out a victory in spite of it. I think the best players are forged not by the ones who never make mistakes, but by the ones who do and work around them to still win.

Waywatcher-
17-10-2008, 17:08
Depends if i like them or not, but then again if i dont ill take a double advantage with the help of my friend Mr. Rohip.......

Waywatcher

Plastic Parody
17-10-2008, 17:08
Depends...


Friendly/pickup game? A friendly nudge is in order.
New/inexperienced player? Ditto.
Tournament or other competitive environment (friendly cheesefests)? It would likely depend on my opponent. Good gamers would likely get a nudge, chowderheads might not...



yeh thats spot on

Ddraiglais
17-10-2008, 17:54
If it's a new guy, then I'll give him a heads up for a couple of games. If it's a new army for an older player, I'd probably do the same. If it's a new codex, then I'd remind my opponent of the new rules. If it's a vet with an army he's played for a while, he should know better and won't get any help from me.

Now if someone forgets to move a unit or makes a tactical error, that's they're fault (unless it's an extremely new guy). Tough luck in those situations.

Democratus
17-10-2008, 18:18
I let my opponent play his game in his way. During the game I always take notes and, afterward, I will be glad to share what mistakes were made by both of us.

This has proven to be the best way to learn for both noobs and vets. If you never suffer any consequences then it is much more difficult to learn.

Ubermensch Commander
17-10-2008, 18:53
I play with friends so usually we check each others mistakes.
In a tourny I do the same, so long as the guy/girl I am playing with is cool.
I will not usually correct anyones tactical mistake though I have from time to time, such as if the player CONSISTENTLY makes the same mistakes and doesnt seem to realize there are alternatives.
If someone forgets to charge,shoot, use a psychic power and remembers almost immediately thereafter, I will usually let them go through it so long as it doesnt require putting models/units back after casualties and such. If too much of the game has to be altered, I would say that no, we cannot rewind time.

So generally speaking, no problem helping another player out. As others have said, context matters.

Ammanas
17-10-2008, 18:59
My perspective on this like someone commented is based on who I am playing.
If I am playing a newbie I will remind them of things because that is the only way they are going to learn.. if they are anything like me they will go home from a loss and have a think about their army list again - at which point they would realise all the stuff they missed and spend all night thinking 'what if'.

If my opponent is a bad character, I'm not going to make a point of them forgetting something that doesn't benefit me.

zendral
17-10-2008, 19:22
Depends...


Friendly/pickup game? A friendly nudge is in order.
New/inexperienced player? Ditto.
Tournament or other competitive environment (friendly cheesefests)? It would likely depend on my opponent. Good gamers would likely get a nudge, chowderheads might not...


I wouldn't ruin the game for a new player or spoil a quick game at the FLGS, but when the environment is specifically set up to be competitive, I'd expect my opponent to be prepared.

Ditto. In freindly games I always tend to remind my opponent about a move or extra trick. Also don't mind letting them replay any big mistake like forgetting a reserve roll even though its the start of the shooting phase or end of movement.

avatar of kaine
17-10-2008, 19:25
I used to but not do much now

Isambard
17-10-2008, 19:39
I will always correct a rule/value mistake (nope, you have a higher initiative etc) but a tactical error is another matter. If it will make the game better I will often remind players (hey, remember that charge) but sometimes a will leave a tactical error un-mentioned, especially if the game might hang in the balance. Napoleon once said 'never point out to an enemy his mistakes', a good tactical mantra to follow.

the anti santa
17-10-2008, 20:28
Do you take advantage of your opponent's misstake in the game when he forgets some special rules he could have used to save himself but forgot about it or do you help him fresh up his memory?


If it was a tournament game I wouldn't remind my opponent about a unit he forgot to move, but would probably let him take the move back if not too much time had passed. If it was a friendly game i'd usually tell the other guy, and always tell him if he was not that up to date with the rules.



Exemple the armour value of tanks or the C'tan's abilities that removes all saves in close combat?

If you know that a C'tan ignores all saves then trying to claim your unit gets the save is cheating even if the C'tan player didn't realise that. I'd consider that very poor behaviour for anyone to do that.

The_Outsider
17-10-2008, 21:37
Only against inexperienced players will I remind them of things, but for anyone there can be no mercy - they shall pay for their mistakes in blood.

Dangersaurus
17-10-2008, 21:46
We play with a "Whoops" rule. If you forget something from a previous phase and you can go back and fix it with nothing changing (movement of troops that didn't shoot, throwing a blind grenade, storing cards in your force weapon, etc.), then do it. Otherwise "Whoops," your troops sat there for a turn, oiled their guns, dialed the wrong number for the barrage, whatever.

It also works both ways, so if it's my turn and I suddenly realize my opponent forgot to move a unit that was out-of-control, used a psychic power through a plasma template, or a guy was on fire but instead shot my ancestor lord... it burns, but "Whoops" it happened somehow.

totgeboren
17-10-2008, 22:23
Dangersaurus: Are you playing 2:ed? None of the examples you used are valid in 5:th. :D

ReveredChaplainDrake
17-10-2008, 22:35
As I've played a number of "My First 5th ed" games against new players, them I'll remind of stuff and explain in detail what I have, how it works, and so forth. But against experienced players who I usually play against, they should know better.

The exception to this is my universal thought on Reserves. If you forget to roll for Reserves and it's still your turn, roll immediately and see if they come on. Since you can't hold back your Reserves (unless you play Dark Eldar) then Reserves coming on early could be as much of a hindrance as it is a benefit. Were I not to, there would practically be a house rule for "tactical amnesia" if you don't want your Greater Daemon, Necron Warriors, Lictors, Vanguard, outflankers, or other Reserve units showing up before you want them.

Dangersaurus
17-10-2008, 22:35
Dangersaurus: Are you playing 2:ed? None of the examples you used are valid in 5:th. :D

Yah, I've only played one non-2nd edition game (it was a blast too). Still, in my garage the whoops rule tends to apply no matter what the game is. It gets a little... hazy in there sometimes.

the1stpip
18-10-2008, 00:14
If he forgets to make a move or to shoot, or if he forgets a special rule to his benefit, I will remind him and help him out.

Unless it is a tournament, in which case you should know your army.

If I forget to do something in a game (cos I am not infallible either) I refuse to go back and do it differently. I forgot. Hopefully I will learn not to forget.

judgey
18-10-2008, 00:42
My group is teaching the rules to a relatively new player.If he forgets something We tend to remind him once, then notify him of the mistake afterwards if he repeats it. If he fails to do it and it results in something bad, he tends to not forget again. That said, special rules and abilities, we all tend to watch out for each other.

Jester Boy
18-10-2008, 00:57
What would Jesus do?

Lord Inquisitor
18-10-2008, 01:12
I always point it out (yes, even in a tournament) if it's something that always applies. You really want to win just because your opponent has simply made a rules mistake or forgotten a special rule?

If it's something he needs to choose to do (Bladestorm, for example) then I wouldn't necessarily point it out unless he's a beginner.

weissengel86
18-10-2008, 02:31
Personally I remind them once or twice on identical or similar issues and then after that their on their own. New players i will usually always show their mistakes but i will warn them that if they keep repeating the mistake they are SOL.

As for what would jesus would do he would obviously not tell them to ensure victory for his forces (he plays the emperor and his personal retinue)

Chem-Dog
18-10-2008, 02:49
Not really something I do but then again, I'll let somebody move a unit if they suddenly realise they forgot to in the middle of the shooting phase.

Dark Primus
18-10-2008, 21:40
I do agree with the majority of people here, and that's how we have been played at my place.

Screw ups and forgotten moves, well the player or players can only blame himself/herself.

alphastealer
20-10-2008, 10:03
I am a veteran chess player so my take is a bit more stiff than most.

If a guy even picks up a model in a unit and simulates moving it, then the entire unit has moved, even if he tries to put it back and rather shoot heavy weapons...sorry too late!

I will point out illegalities, ie: things that would be cheating if they were not done, things like rolling saves or rolling for night fight, when applicable.

However I will not allow a player slack if they neglected an optional aspect of the game, ie: they do not charge with their khorne beserkers even though they are 4 away from my troops.

The best teachers in life are pain and loss. You will be surprised how quickly a person learns when they have something to lose, even if it is just a heightened perception of their intelligence.

Likewise a guy who is always given a break will always be a sloppy, indecisive player with sketchy rules knowledge.

Coasty
20-10-2008, 10:06
What would Jesus do?

He doesn't play wargames. He's too busy with wine and prostitutes, apparently.

Kahadras
20-10-2008, 10:22
Ususaly I'll inform a player of any mistakes. I'm not up to date with manu of the armies at the present moment so if he misses anything in his own rules then I probably won't spot it. In these circumstances though it's his own fault for not having read the codex. Sometimes I've had to stop games before to get my oponant to actualy sit down and read his codex all the way through.

Kahadras

Stingray_tm
20-10-2008, 10:49
I always remind my opponent if I notice he has missed or forgotten something, even if its detrimental to me.

Absolutely.

If he makes a tactical mistake, i talk about this after the game (heck, maybe it is not a mistake at all and i am making an tactical error here), but if i realize, that he clearly misread a rule or made another mistake like forgetting to move the unit he was about to move, before his cell phone rang, i will remind him right at the moment. No matter if it is a tournament game or a friendly game in my club.

Luisjoey
20-10-2008, 15:13
I remember everything i can! i want to win at the best of my opponent so my glory would be greater in the emperors eyes!

Geckilian
25-10-2008, 04:49
I freely admit I'm quite a beardy powergamer, but I still tend to remind my opponents if they forget something, or if they're underestimating what they can do. If they have a play style similar to mine and are a hard line player, then I'll tend not to as I would expect highly competitive players to remember what they can do. In a similar vein, if I forget something, then oh well, there's hopefully next turn to do it.

Essentially I'm kinder to casual players to try and offset my playing style, but beardmeisters are on their own.

Son of Makuta
25-10-2008, 11:42
If he's a git or plays Space Marines*, yes.
Otherwise, no.

Also, regardless of army choice I will always remind someone if they've forgotten to move, and let them do psychic powers late or move with Fleet if they forgot them (the first time, anyway). I'm a bit of a pedant though, so will pick up on small rules inconsistencies (like casting psychic powers at the wrong time and so on). It annoys me, and probably annoys my opponents, but I can't really help it...

Again though, if my opponent is being a git, I won't play nice with him, especially if he's doing the same thing (picking, or trying to pick, holes in my rules. It's fair enough if someone's right about it, but when they're wrong and rather aggressively insist that they're right, that drives me up the wall...).

*Space Marines have so many infuriating special rules, exceptions and nice stuff that nobody else gets**, and I'm not sure why but I find playing against loyalist marines no fun whatsoever. If my opponent forgets one of these silly rules, I'm not in a rush to remind him.

**So wait, none of *us* can assault out of our <AV13 transports, but your Land Raider is not only an AV14 hill with ridiculous firepower, your Assault Termies can charge out of it too? From any of the doors?

Ninja edit for this:


In these circumstances though it's his own fault for not having read the codex. Sometimes I've had to stop games before to get my oponant to actualy sit down and read his codex all the way through.

QFT. While not having actually forced someone to sit down and read the codex before, I know the feeling. :rolleyes:

A plea (or tip) to all 40K players out there. Buy the codex BEFORE the army. Read it cover to cover several times. Write up a few test lists and then go out and buy the miniatures when you know exactly what they do and what you want. It works an absolute treat.