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BigbyWolf
17-10-2008, 14:35
Does anyone else think that every now and then GW make a special character that looks great, but has really bad flaws?

A few I have in mind are:

Gorbad Ironclaw- 310 points for a boar mounted orc (so if you use him with boars he moves away from your main battle line...not the best for O&G). Yes, his Ld can be used by units 18" away to begin with, but when he's wounded it drops to 6"- and considering he doesn't have a ward save, and his normal save is 3+, thats fairly likely to happen...And the only magic item he has? Morgor the Mangler...ASF and allows no armour save...good...but not that good. Basically you end up paying 160 points for his ability, axe and an extra point of WS,I, and Ld.

Kurt Helborg- Yes, very impressive with Runefang and Laurels, but also very fragile against most hard Lords or a well placed spell. Better to spend a few extra points and go for Karl Franz...

Luthor Huss- Just in here for the wonderous Fiery Demagogue ability...or am I wrong, have GW clarified this?

Settra- 625 points, can only be taken in games 3000 points or more, but you can't take any Liches in the army, so get just 2DD...which considering how many PD most armies would have in 3000 points, is very bad. Yes the guy is very tough (unless you come up against fire...), and all Chariots, Tomb Guard and Heavy Cav get a free incantation each turn, but I just don't see the point of him!

Finally we come to Orion, "King of the Woodelves" ...575 points, and 6 St 7 attacks on the charge with 6 wounds is quite tempting...but when you realise that he has no basic save, and only a 5+ ward against non magical attacks, suddenly he doesn't look as fun...

Those are just a few that I could think of, I'm sure many of you can think of others, or maybe you disagree, maybe you think some of the ones I've listed are the best thing since sliced bread (or warpstone, if you're a Skaven)?

vinny t
17-10-2008, 14:47
I have to disagree with Kurt. He is VERY good against units. Sure it is easy to hurt him with a bloodthirster or a dragon. But you're EMPIRE man. You have cannons. Just shoot the threats. Also you have a Stubborn Knight unit that is Immune to psych. This unit is a bear to break and, having Kurt in it, is juite a damage-causer. And just for 300 odd points?!He may be fragile, but will most likley kill his opponent with 4 WS7 auto wounding, No Armor saves, atttacks.

But, yeah, I agree on the rest.

Lijacote
17-10-2008, 14:49
A listing of special characters with special traits

I'm reasonably certain none of those are useless.

I nominate the daemon character that gives everyone hatred to be the closest to useless in that book. Kurgath does compete.

Ixquic
17-10-2008, 14:55
Kurt Helborg- Yes, very impressive with Runefang and Laurels, but also very fragile against most hard Lords or a well placed spell. Better to spend a few extra points and go for Karl Franz...

Are you kidding?? He's WS7 so he hits most stuff on 3s then auto wounds and ignores armor and gets double combat res. He's statistically going to generate about 6 CR by himself (and can get up to 8), then you add in the knights he makes immune to psychology and he's still stubborn on a 9 if you do manage to beat him in combat. Sure he doesn't have a 4+ ward and d3 wounds but a 2+ armor save is nothing to sneeze at and most other characters don't want to risk getting creamed by him so that in itself is a form of protection.


Personally I think Vlad and Isabella are pointless. She has worse stats than a regular hero vampire and no armor. Her ability is only good if you are jamming all your Vampires into one unit and even then it's just one free Invocation cast. Vlad (one of the original Vampires) has the same stats as a regular Vampire Lord with one extra attack. His skills are decent but without Red Fury or any of the "Master of" skills he's not really configured for close combat or summoning. His weapon isn't useful in a non mounted unit, especially when compared to what other special characters get. He can have frenzy and hatred but Isabella has to die and then she counts for double victory points. His only saving grace is his 4+ ward with no stupidity and the Ring but I know that thing will fail when I need it so it's not worth the point cost.

hacksaaw
17-10-2008, 17:34
Which is the problem with all the VC special characters, they suck wind. you might take manfred and i would have to actually sit down and do the math to see, im guessing that hes close to what a regular vamp lord would cost with those abilities. but the rest are pittiful.

Especially after rendering Vamps very killable in the new edition, there is nothing that approaches the special characters in the recent books.

so pretty much all the vamp VCs are pointless.

Malorian
17-10-2008, 17:42
Well I think that if you look at a special character and it's not an obvious choice then GW have done their job right.

I can't think of any special characters that are pointless, although from a tactics point of view I HATE (with extreme passion) Konrad from the VC book!

Duke Georgal
17-10-2008, 17:53
OK, what are the best "no brainer" special characters?

I know Thorak must be because I never see a tournament Dwarf army without him.

Other than that, I can't think of a single special character that gets overused around here.

Lordsaradain
17-10-2008, 17:55
I can't think of any special characters that are pointless, although from a tactics point of view I HATE (with extreme passion) Konrad from the VC book!

Gotta love the model though! :)

Malorian
17-10-2008, 18:00
Best no brainer speacial characters? Well thorek and then the high elve ones for sure.

The deamons ones are harder because there isn't much to compare them with, but the high elve ones you can pretty much make the same thing your self but it's a lot more points.

Special characters to me should be about what you can make in the book, plus some ability which you then pay the points for. I also think the special character should be overcosted by about 10% just to cover the different tactical options it gives.

Ozorik
17-10-2008, 18:15
Most pointless special character? All of them.

Dont like them, dont need them and dont use them. I think I may have used Yarrick once in 2nd ed but thats it.

Konrad is very nasty in small point games

Malorian
17-10-2008, 18:25
Konrad is very nasty in small point games

That's where he is worst!!!

In these small games these people make him their general, throw him in a unit of infantry and then go off to kill things.

Then the opponent just moves up a unit 12 inches away and half the time konrad will be frenzied and run out of the unit (to be easily killed by the opponent next turn) and the other half of the time he has to test on stupidity on his poor leadership.

The only time I can see using him and it not being insane is in large games where you have enough other vampires to cover you magic wise and then use him to guard your general.

loveless
17-10-2008, 18:33
Agreed. Konrad is useless in small games as you NEED another Vampire with him.

A Vampire must be the general in a Vampire Counts army (it's right before the Army List, in the Army Composition section if anyone's wondering). Taking just Konrad gives you...ooh...Ld 6 for a General.

apbevan
17-10-2008, 18:52
Well Vlad is 5pts cheaper than a lord made the same way except vlad is using 125potins of powers and 115pts of magic items and gets the bonus 4+ ward save and 1 extra attack. Do you want to use vlad as your lord? well hes a very good all round lord so if your looking for something specific then he is not for you.

Count Manfred however comes to 365 for the stuff that can be calculated but then you him knowing all spells in 2 Vampires and death, unique armour giving him 5 wounds, A unique sword and the ability to take 2 additional arcane items. Manfred is a steal of a deal.

Gorbad Ironclaw sounds pretty good, ASF and ignores armour.

Settra sounds good if you design a list around it. I faced armies with only 2DD and few if no scrolls and they do just fine. Just like a list with no shooting can do just fine.

idiotproof dalek
17-10-2008, 18:55
Judging special characters by their 'pointlessness' rather goes against the reason they exist - which is not to help you win your beardy tournament games, but rather as a bit of colour for your games, to provide interest and background, and sometimes do crazy things. This is in order that you can say to people: 'Remember that game when Konrad ran out of his unit and got twotted by your treeman ancient? Wot a laugh!'

You're meant to be having fun people. Chess has no special characters either and both sides are evenly matched. Maybe you're all playing the wrong game......

Leogun_91
17-10-2008, 19:08
The deamon ones that are very hard to convert (these are pointless as no-one will use fitting models for them anyway), a great unclean one on a palaquin (imagine the number of nurgling boxes you will need), a wingless bloodthirster or a twoheaded Lord of change are at least not that hard to convert but there is no indication of how the changeling looks so that is really hard to make proper everyone probobly just uses a horror model as him.

Gamewise I canīt see a pointless special character, most seems to be usefull in their own ways, maybe the 30th anniversary whitedwarf as he is just unbalanced and doesnīt improve the game, that was however an anniversary character so heīs not supposed to work well in the game, just look cool.

Ixquic
17-10-2008, 19:27
That's where he is worst!!!

In these small games these people make him their general, throw him in a unit of infantry and then go off to kill things.

Then the opponent just moves up a unit 12 inches away and half the time konrad will be frenzied and run out of the unit (to be easily killed by the opponent next turn) and the other half of the time he has to test on stupidity on his poor leadership.

The only time I can see using him and it not being insane is in large games where you have enough other vampires to cover you magic wise and then use him to guard your general.

Yeah Konrad is pretty stupid. He would be awesome with movement 4 but at 6 it's like "did they have anyone with half a brain playing against this guy?" during play-testing since if you are smart you can get him to kill himself 50% of the time first turn.


Judging special characters by their 'pointlessness' rather goes against the reason they exist - which is not to help you win your beardy tournament games, but rather as a bit of colour for your games, to provide interest and background, and sometimes do crazy things. This is in order that you can say to people: 'Remember that game when Konrad ran out of his unit and got twotted by your treeman ancient? Wot a laugh!'

You're meant to be having fun people. Chess has no special characters either and both sides are evenly matched. Maybe you're all playing the wrong game......

This argument gets thrown out a lot here but really doesn't work for several reasons. One, if it was really "all about fun" certain special characters wouldn't be so ludicrously overpowered as to make their opponent have as un-fun a time as possible like in the case of the Masque or Thorek. Two, if it was really all about fun and no competitiveness at all, they would just give us a general guideline for how stuff is supposed to happen atnd let wacky stuff go on, not give up a 150 page rulebook and then more rules for every army and then hold official tournaments.


Well Vlad is 5pts cheaper than a lord made the same way except vlad is using 125potins of powers and 115pts of magic items and gets the bonus 4+ ward save and 1 extra attack. Do you want to use vlad as your lord? well hes a very good all round lord so if your looking for something specific then he is not for you.

Count Manfred however comes to 365 for the stuff that can be calculated but then you him knowing all spells in 2 Vampires and death, unique armour giving him 5 wounds, A unique sword and the ability to take 2 additional arcane items. Manfred is a steal of a deal.

Gorbad Ironclaw sounds pretty good, ASF and ignores armour.

Settra sounds good if you design a list around it. I faced armies with only 2DD and few if no scrolls and they do just fine. Just like a list with no shooting can do just fine.

Yeah Vlad is too vanilla to be any real use in my opinion but Mannfred is awesome as he should be.

sulla
17-10-2008, 19:30
I struggle to see a point in either Kouran or Tullaris in the DE books. Both are so expensive for one wound characters in infantry units with poor armour saves.

Having said that, I actually quite like the DE and VC special characters if all other special characters were of the same level, where taking them changed the flavour of your army, rather than the power level.

But with armies like HE and Daemons out there where there are special characters who are just discount versions of normal heroes but better (Skulltaker and Teclis, anyone?) or cheap utility characters like the scribes, Masque or Caradryel, the DE and VC ones seem so situational as to be quite overpriced.

BigbyWolf
17-10-2008, 19:31
Judging special characters by their 'pointlessness' rather goes against the reason they exist - which is not to help you win your beardy tournament games, but rather as a bit of colour for your games, to provide interest and background, and sometimes do crazy things. This is in order that you can say to people: 'Remember that game when Konrad ran out of his unit and got twotted by your treeman ancient? Wot a laugh!'

You're meant to be having fun people. Chess has no special characters either and both sides are evenly matched. Maybe you're all playing the wrong game......

I never said that I used special characters, as a rule I don't, unless we're playing themed/ historical games...which is what they seem best suited to. I definately don't take them to tournaments- I'd prefer to win something using a general of my own making...

All I'm doing here is talking about benefits and drawbacks of certain special characters.

Ozorik
17-10-2008, 19:42
That's where he is worst!!!

I played against him a couple of 500 point games and I just couldnt kill him, in both games he was the only undead model left standing though. Mind you I did forget about his 6' move.

W0lf
17-10-2008, 19:58
you realise alot of the time a frenzied konrad charge can and will win combat?

He did that against my chaos ogres (new book) and did 12 wounds (double wounds..) with average rolling.

When ive used him hes beaten clan rats with +5cr to the front and ive even seen him beat chaos knights AND Bloodknights in a charge.

Malorian
17-10-2008, 20:34
He 'can' do a lot of things, but usually he won't. Usually the baiting unit will either flee leaving Konrad to be shot/countercharged, or it will be a fully ranked unit where Konrad would need better than average rolls to beat.

idiotproof dalek
17-10-2008, 21:27
This argument gets thrown out a lot here but really doesn't work for several reasons. One, if it was really "all about fun" certain special characters wouldn't be so ludicrously overpowered as to make their opponent have as un-fun a time as possible like in the case of the Masque or Thorek. Two, if it was really all about fun and no competitiveness at all, they would just give us a general guideline for how stuff is supposed to happen atnd let wacky stuff go on, not give up a 150 page rulebook and then more rules for every army and then hold official tournaments.


Yeah, well I admit to being slightly biased, in that I hate the tournament scene and all that goes with 'competitive' play. How someone can get so serious about a game of fantasy soldiers, in which chance plays such a large part eludes me. Why not just agree to veto special characters with your opponent? The fact that the makers of warhammer clearly don't mean it to be 'balanced' in the slightest surely indicates you're bound to be facing an uphill struggle to make it so.

Most of the complaints about 'competitiveness' are like trying to fit a trapezoid peg into a clearly rhomboid hole.

And GW have said themselves that they want the tournaments are about having fun, and 'bringing gamers together'.

It's not the game, its the way you play it.

blackjack
17-10-2008, 21:31
The single greatest no brianer spechial char is The Masque, simply the best 90pt char in history followed closely by Kairos who costs less than a kitted out LOC and is easly twice as useful magic wise, and the blue scribes whom for 81pts simply rock.

The most ponitless spechial char is Skabrand who costs much more than a kitted Blood Thirster, can't fly, is stuck with frenzy and grants hatred to everyone friend and enemy alike!

Slaaneshi Ice Cream
17-10-2008, 22:01
I was sure this post would be about special characters that don't cost any points. :(

As for special characters that aren't worth taking, how about Galrauch?

An expensive dragon mage that attacks himself 1/3 of the time. Oh could I could I have 2 of them!!!! *face palm*

Storak
17-10-2008, 22:11
The single greatest no brianer spechial char is The Masque, simply the best 90pt char in history followed closely by Kairos who costs less than a kitted out LOC and is easly twice as useful magic wise, and the blue scribes whom for 81pts simply rock.

The most ponitless spechial char is Skabrand who costs much more than a kitted Blood Thirster, can't fly, is stuck with frenzy and grants hatred to everyone friend and enemy alike!

good post. i just came up with some use for Skabrand though:
in a big points nurgle list, he could accompany the tallyman, giving a 4+ poison reroll...

pretty evil, eh?

Kalec
18-10-2008, 00:41
Konrad does not run with infantry, he runs with a decent-sized unit of dire wolves.

Most pointless SC is Luthor Huss. So close to being a viable option, yet so far.
Ludwig Schwarzhelm is my runner-up, just because he precludes the Griffin banner.

ewar
18-10-2008, 00:47
dwarf high king thorgrim - 750pts for an indestructible combat monster.... with M3!? Can anyone say 'waste of points'. The only possible way to make him work is combine him with rune of challenge i.e. with another character, and even then most serious gribblies are ItP.

Mouldsta
18-10-2008, 01:03
6th edition Malekith had to rank up there as pretty much most pointless character; he used up a vast ammount of character slots (4 to be precise) so you could have no friendly wizards, he cost the earth, and he was immensely vunerable to magic.
He was awesome in combat, just that first turn panic of trying to get him there without a D6 str 4 fireball obliterating him.

Jakk
18-10-2008, 01:26
6th edition Malekith had to rank up there as pretty much most pointless character; he used up a vast ammount of character slots (4 to be precise) so you could have no friendly wizards, he cost the earth, and he was immensely vunerable to magic.
He was awesome in combat, just that first turn panic of trying to get him there without a D6 str 4 fireball obliterating him.

Isn't that how he dies in the fluff, by the way?

SuperArchMegalon
18-10-2008, 01:27
Nobody has said Greasus Goldtooth from the Ogre book yet. He's slow, he only has 3 attacks, and his special abilities suck. Also just LD 9, even though he's the OVER TYRANT OF ALL THE OGRE TRIBES!!! Oh well, I hear he makes a good paperweight.

loveless
18-10-2008, 02:39
Isn't that how he dies in the fluff, by the way?

...Malekith isn't dead...

Teclis cast a spell on him that made his 27th degree burns burst into flames again, but Malekith threw himself into the Chaos Wastes and then crawled back to Naggaroth, where Morathi nursed him back to health and sanity.

He's still ruling the Druchii and threatening the Asur (and the world).

hippyhunter5
18-10-2008, 03:43
Which is the problem with all the VC special characters, they suck wind. you might take manfred and i would have to actually sit down and do the math to see, im guessing that hes close to what a regular vamp lord would cost with those abilities. but the rest are pittiful.

Especially after rendering Vamps very killable in the new edition, there is nothing that approaches the special characters in the recent books.

so pretty much all the vamp VCs are pointless.

I disagree.

Vlad's ring is one of the best you can get, not to mention great stats for CC and decent magic.

Manfred is also a great character but more magic oriented.

Daemon characters are the best however.

teos40k
18-10-2008, 10:52
The most useless special character has to be the hippogryph riding old man....so many points for such a over priced character... Compare him with Mr. Acha from warriors of chaos...

Reinnon
18-10-2008, 11:55
The most useless special character has to be the hippogryph riding old man....so many points for such a over priced character... Compare him with Mr. Acha from warriors of chaos...

...which old man? I can think of three (bretonnian, high elf, empire) characters that would fit that description.

I personally don't like the champion level special chars from the dark elves. In the background they are both fairly hardcore characters - but in game turns they only have one wound and can't be your general. Kouran at the very least should have been a hero.

I find it odd that its possible to "build" a captain of the blackguard that outclasses Kouran in nearly every single way, makes me wonder how the guy has lasted 500 odd years.

Braad
18-10-2008, 12:07
Dunno about the rest, but regarding Gorbad Ironclaw...
I haven't tried him yet, but he doesn't seem overly powerfull, and I don't know if he is overpriced or something. But the leadership range going from 18 to 6 after suffering a wound indeed is weird. A normal warboss doesn't have that problem, so why should Gorbad only have a 6" leadership if he suffered a minor wound, and a normal boss still has 12" if he is severely damaged and down to his last wound.

Better would be something like this: 18" range, is reduced back to normal 12" after being broken once from combat.
Fleeing like a coward is a much better way to get the boyz to dislike you then being in the thick of combat and having a hand cut of or something.

Count Demandred
18-10-2008, 12:57
Well I think that if you look at a special character and it's not an obvious choice then GW have done their job right.

I can't think of any special characters that are pointless, although from a tactics point of view I HATE (with extreme passion) Konrad from the VC book!

YES. Me too.

How could one of the mightiest (albeit crazy/stupid) Vampires that there's been, who led a huge invasion into the heart of the Empire, be simply a HERO level character.

Absolute bollox.

Count Demandred
18-10-2008, 13:07
Well Vlad is 5pts cheaper than a lord made the same way except vlad is using 125potins of powers and 115pts of magic items and gets the bonus 4+ ward save and 1 extra attack. Do you want to use vlad as your lord? well hes a very good all round lord so if your looking for something specific then he is not for you.

Which is technically another 45 for the Ward Save, and 15 for the extra attack. So I suppose that means he's getting 75 points off.

And the fact he's allowed to have above 100 points worth of powers/items is also valuable in its own right.

EvC
18-10-2008, 13:31
Yeah but his items are selected without any real synergy. For example he has Blood Drinker, but is restricted to fighting on foot so is unlikely to ever be seen in a unit of Black or Blood Knights (Good thing too, seeing as the Blood Knights never fought for him).

As for Konrad, the idea is that you screen him (Whoa! It's like them tic-tac things!) until he's ready to be unleashed, and use him either near your general (Duh) or with a Wight King in the unit to boost his leadership. Easy-peasy. But yeah it's dumb that he's only a Hero, they really need a Lord-level version.

BigbyWolf
18-10-2008, 13:32
Had a game last night, and for a laugh, me and my opponent chose to use all the special characters from our books (Me O&G, him empire) along with other characters, just to see how they would work out...took most of the night, as it was a 6000 point game! The special characters did quite well, we took notes and stuff so if anyones interested I'll post the game in the battle report section..could take a while to type up so just want to see if it's worth me posting it?

Malorian
18-10-2008, 15:38
ALWAYS write a battle reports if you are willing to spend the time.

Jack Spratt
18-10-2008, 16:04
I kinda like SC, but was never a megafan of them. I use them now and then.

On my lame list you will find ...
Both OK characters, the overtyrant being the worst.
The Dwarf highking - people just go around him.
Lord Kroak - 1200+ and Teclis still kicks his butt!

Oh and even though i do see the problems with Konrad, i still think he is cool.

Waywatcher-
18-10-2008, 16:19
I think useless and pointless are the wrong words, mabye you could say there not cost affective points wise.

Waywatcher

BigbyWolf
19-10-2008, 02:09
Started the battle report- thread is http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167454

Can anyone suggest the best way for me to post a map of deployment on here?

StarFyre
19-10-2008, 02:55
I've used slann and kroak vs a battle with teclis...and i've kicked his ass *shrug*

it comes down to who gets a spell off first. I go a spell off at him, and it killed him (irresistable force)...and i got a ruination off twice that wasted a unit with him and killed him too...but for twice the cost...it's pretty brutal.

Sanjay

loveless
19-10-2008, 03:09
...which old man? I can think of three (bretonnian, high elf, empire) characters that would fit that description.


Actually, you're confusing hippogriffs and griffons.

The only hippogriff mounted character is the King of Bretonnia.

The High Elf and Empire characters are on griffons.

Ergo, the poster was talking about Leon.

Von Wibble
19-10-2008, 13:43
Konrad does not run with infantry, he runs with a decent-sized unit of dire wolves.

Most pointless SC is Luthor Huss. So close to being a viable option, yet so far.
Ludwig Schwarzhelm is my runner-up, just because he precludes the Griffin banner.

If you put Konrad with wolves you are providing the enemy with a lot of advantages. Wolves can't claim rank bonus as fast cav, and have no banner, so static cr goes against you. Also instead of fighting troops with 4+ save or T4 you are against troops with no armour. Cavalry charging such a unit will destroy it very quickly as a result (remember it now has M6 not 9). I think Konrad has his uses, but more in huge games where he can act as bodyguard to a character, or in games against armies with no shooting or magic on his own.

Disagree about Ludwig, he is one of the best.

Yes, he stops you taking the griffon standard. That's right, you can't have an item everyone knows you will take on a T4 2W model with 3+ save and therefore kills (I never mount characters and put with foot units - it looks stupid).

Instead you get (for about 40pts) killing blow, +1 to all cr within 12" and reroll to wounds. That's a pretty good deal.

Louen is not great, but the uberpowered enchantress makes up for it. I've always thought if you swapped their points costs it would be fairer - imo louen is 200ish overcosted and Fay enchantress imo 200 under.

Settra has a lot of restrictions especially magic defense (mr 2 on 1 unit, a few dispel dice and 1 "scroll"), whilst Khalidah is great!

Jack Spratt - I don't understand why you don't rate scragg - in 2000-2999 points he is the only way to get a slaughtermaster. Greasus with his M4 (because this makes his improved impact hits SO likely) is pretty poor though.

I don't like Orion - his crumble rule makes him far too vulnerable and a lot of his abiilties have negative synergies (eg good shooting but good charging also).

destroyerlord
20-10-2008, 09:21
Consider that Orion is basically a much better (6th ed) daemon prince, although he doesn't fly. Seriously DPs are pointless compared to a Chaos lord and while Orion does suffer from their main downfall, he can have hounds as ablative wounds (IIRC) to make up for it. The bolt thrower is just to use in the first two turns before he hits combat.

malisteen
21-10-2008, 01:05
Vamp Characters:

Vlad: Count von Carstwin has a slight points discount, but considering several of his upgrades aren't exactly sought after to begin with (beguile, terror, sword), that's not saying all that much. He lacks rather sorely as a caster, and his offensive melee is also pretty lackluster for a vamp lord. He also represents a pretty poor 'balanced' lord, since it's fairly easy to put together a generic vamp lord with superiour melee and magical offensive power, while maintaining a reasonable defence and a lower points total.

What Vlad really represents is a specialization in survivability. He can cast invocation on himself, he can heal himself by killing grunts in melee combat, he has a 4+ ward, and he has the ring, which can teleport him out of a losing situation into another combat where he can quickly heal himself by killing grunts. Sadly, this isn't really a great gimmick for him, and he's generally not worth the points investment. That said, he's cool, and looks cool, so I run with him anyway every once in a while. All in all, I'd rate the big guy as pretty bad though. Noticeably worse then what you'd get out of a generic vamp lord. Not quite bad enough to warrant a spot in the 'Useless Special Character Hall of Fame' (infamy?).


Old Man Manfred: This guy is 'the good one' of the Vamp special characters. He has most of the standard Casty-Lord kit, plus a couple nice bonus toys, and you can customize him with a mount and up to two arcane items of your choice. He's pricey, and has some options one might normally pass over on a casty lord, but he's far from bad, and is in fact arguably better then generic character equivalents.


Young Man Manfred: So-so. More expensive then generic caster equivalents and not exactly better. Not bad though, far from it, and has many of Old Man Manfred's options, letting you tool him to taste. Again, not good, but not terrible.


Konrad: So-so. Lots of offensive punch, especially against multi-wound models. The low leadership and lack of casting power means you won't want him to be your only vampire, and with stupidity, you probably won't want to run him outside the LD range of your lord. Frenzy is a hassle. Remember you can declair a bad charge with his unit if you think he's in charge range so he won't run off on his own. That won't stop the enemy from leading him around by the nose, though, so screening is important, as is getting rid of the enemy's faster units. While these drawbacks are annoying, he does come with a not inconsiderable points discount for it, which keeps him worth considering. Works well with or near a generic casty lord (or maybe with Old Man Manfred, though my time paradox inhibitors prevent me from trying it). Like Young Man Manfred, he's probably not as good as what you could get out of a generic character, but he's not aweful, either.


Isabella: The bottom of the bunch. Cheapest potential general in the VC army, but by far the worst character option. Poor stats, poor powers, poor equipment. The only reason to take her is to run her alongside Vlad, but even there her 'double victory points' penalty makes her terrible. I occasionally run a 'crazy SC Vamp army' with all of the Vamp SCs in it (excepting Old Man Manfred, for the aformentioned time paradox issue), and she's always the one I regret taking most. It would be very difficult to build a worse hero out of the generic options in the Army book, even if you were trying.


All in all, I'd rate Konrad and YMManfred at about where SCs should be - interesting options that are neither obviously good or bad for their points, and let you do things the generic heroes wouldn't while injecting a bit of narrative into your game. Vlad is close to this ideal, although he's a little too points inefficient to qualify, and is lacking slightly in offensive 'bite'. OMManfred is also close, but is probably a little too points efficient, having nothing but good options, at a slight discount, and having options for fine tuning instead of the normal pile of SC stuff that they don't quite want. He somewhat eclipses generic equivalents, which I don't think an SC should do.

Isabella is right off the deep end of terrible. Her rules serve only to punish those who want to run fluffy armies including her, and she's in my mind the only one of the Vampire Counts SCs who really warrants a place on the 'Pointless Special Characters" list.

eleveninches
21-10-2008, 14:41
Yeah. Konrad can actually do maximum of 100wounds (in a unit with the banner that makes all models in the unit have flaming attacks, fighting against a unit of flammable treekin) 3 attacks, +1HW, +1 frenzy
5 attacks with infinite hatred
max 5 wounds
double wounds from flaming
double wounds from magic sword
so max 20 wounds.
Now, +20 attacks with infinite hatred
max 20 wounds
double wounds from flaming
double wounds from magic sword
so max 80 wounds.
20+80=100
total wounds (maximum) = 100


Though vamp with forstblade can do maximum about 130+ wounds per turn (in unit that has the flaming attacks banner, against a unit of treekin, with red fury)




Got to disagree about settra and orion. They are both very useful.

Though i dont see the point of:
Khalida
Vlad (there are much better customised vamp kits out there)
Crom (he does virtually nothing special)
Galruach (too unreliable, and will die easily)
Kairos (can spam magic, but will die easily, and is too expensive for my tastes)
Ku'Gath (so hes a stone thrower? so what! normal GDoNurgles are better)
Valkia
Morathi (if she could be taken on foot, she would be so awesome, but the fact that you HAVE to use her flying mount means that she cant join units and will die easily. Though one idea is to give her the sacrificial dagger and black dragon egg for T6, and hope that her mount dies, then move her into a huge unit of warriors and watch her kick ass)

loveless
21-10-2008, 14:47
Valkia


Though I agree with the rest of your list (for the most part - I'm not quite as offended by Morathi), I'm curious as to your reasoning on Valkia the Bloody as a poor choice. Is she just too expensive?

eleveninches
21-10-2008, 14:50
shes just too vunerable IMO

BigbyWolf
21-10-2008, 14:51
I believe Khalida's main strength is being able to autocast the shooting spell once per magic phase as well as other incantations. I've used her before with a unit of 30 archers (on a double layer hill to allow 2 ranks of 15 to fire), and also used her ability to give them poisoned shots- that's quite nasty. 60 shots from one unit per turn, hitting on 5s, auto-wound on 6's...

EndlessBug
21-10-2008, 15:40
as for Dark Elves, Malus darkblade, 275 points for a T3 or T5 elf with a 3+ save. Sure he's nice in that hsi CoK unit now isn't stupid but as soon as you unleash the daemon and are out of combat you're losing 1 CoK per turn. Besides the warpsword has made him able to kill dozens of chaos marauders/warriors etc in a matter of seconds, how does this most viscious of blades only grant him 4 attacks? (that's none of the bonus' from the blade btw) IMO they need to give the blade +2 attacks as well to make him truely aggressive, if they did this they can leave the save as he is meant to be all about offence. ATM I can make a noble just as killy as he is with a better save. Think blood armour, pendant of Khaleth, great weapon, SDC in a unit of black guard with ASF = 3 Strength 6 attacks. 1+ and inverse ward save! and that only costs 140 points! (+ the unit, but then Malus will go in a unit of CoKs).

Crispian25
21-10-2008, 16:03
I don't know about Valkia, but I have to disgaree with Crom. 230 is roughly the cost of a lord, and it's cheap for a lord with a(n old) Runeshield (and Crom's rule is even better). His special rules are great, because as a character, his job is to go and fight things. He's a standard Lord that is good at Character Killing. The only rule I can see fault with is that he has to be the general, meaning that if he does get in over his head, then you can be out a bunch of VPs. We had a Lord-Off, and my Archaon got beat by Valten, but Valten, Teclis, and Grimgor were crushed by Crom. The only Lord he couldn't beat was the Green Knight, because he doesn't have a magic weapon.

weirdo2590
21-10-2008, 16:28
Lord Kroak - 1200+ and Teclis still kicks his butt!

You sir have clearly missed the point on Kroak, in a 2000 point game he's an insane points denial system. Think about it unless your opponent kills him they cant actualy win. Screen him with an insane number of skinks for screening and add in a couple priests (including a flying one) to cast from and you've got a winning formula.

Also I agree with orion, too weak for his points, his abilities dont realy match well with each other and his almost nonexistant save is the last straw.

g0ddy
21-10-2008, 19:45
shes just too vunerable IMO

vulnerable to what? T5 and a 3+ armour save that reduces the strength of hits by 1?

I see no mention of her being a demon prince (thus she isnt stubborn... but can join units as normal)... she is a heavily mutated chaos lord...

Her 6 S7 armour peircing killing blow attacks on the charge... will have something to say about anyone wishing to attack her back.

On the subject of redfury vampires...

Since treekin only have 3 wounds.. konrad can kill a total of 20 of them (60 wounds).

If I recall correctly .. the most wounds one could feasibly cause with a frost blade ... would involve a mounted vampire being charged on all sides by giants... 5? in total.. and then on the remaining edge being hit by a unit of Ogres or Minotaurs (possibly Dragon Ogres?).

With 4 attacks - slay the 4 giants for 24 more attacks.. slaying the 5th giant and 23 more ogres/minotaurs.. for a total of 99 wounds (or 122 for dragon ogres)

I guess you could be riding a zombie dragon and then get 7 giants and the ogre-type unit in base... for 105/126 wounds respectively.

~ zilla

Shamfrit
21-10-2008, 19:59
Valkia is a normal 25mm based lord, US1, and is possibly the best flying US1 creature out there. Not only does she have -1 to hit against shooting, but -1 strength from all the shots, and she's flying, fear causing, has an incredible leadership boosting ability and for the love of god she is a serious threat - -1 attacks to base contact models, IF there's anything left?

Think about that...then think about High Elves...

Then think about having a lone character who can reliably charge even swordmasters. (3 attacks at Str5 against T5, 5+ save, hitting 4's...wounding on 4's...not good.)

pkain762
21-10-2008, 23:06
Greasus Goldtooth from the ogre kingdom is complete garbage.... he has some cool abilities but he takes up 2 lord choices.... that alone is enough to turn me off... he doesn't do enough to validate taking up two lord choices.... he does d6 impact hits instead of one..... all units get +1 cr in his LoS makes enemy units stupid... strength ten.. only three attacks.... and is immune to phsychology and a 4+ ward save agains NON magical missle attacks.... he is not worth it.... oh and he only costs a measly 565 points.....

much better off taking skrag the slaughtermaster in an OK army

kain

eleveninches
24-10-2008, 14:41
vulnerable to what? Bolt throwers, cannonballs, magic, stonethrowers,

eleveninches
24-10-2008, 14:42
I cant see the point of korhil. The only good thing about him is that he can ride a white lion chariot and make it stubborn, so it doesnt have to worry about being charged.

Cant see the point of tullaris either.

The Clairvoyant
24-10-2008, 15:36
Though i dont see the point of:
Khalida

Khalida is the only special character i ever use.
Poisoned bowmen are great against things like rat ogres.
And sit her next to a skullchukka and cast righteous smiting on it for free. Yum.
Then add that to the fact she makes a great warmachine guardian to deter those flyers/burrowers from attacking without being dealt several poisoned attacks of killyness and the fact she causes terror.
And all for the loose-change of 420 pts.

I like the VC characters but tend to use my own killy lord and magic lord. Isabella makes me chuckle every time i read her rules. Double VPs :D All because in the old days, people like me would use her as a skirmish screen to die at the first available opportunity so vlad could get his frenzy (x2 A) and hatred!

On a side note, Vlad must be one of the most fickle characters when it comes to magic swords. I'm sure he gets a new sword every time his rules get re-done. And mannfred has vlads 4th ed sword "here ya go manny, i got me a new sword so you can have this old one. Its a bit battered but still works ok. And no, you can't have my magic ring"

EvC
24-10-2008, 16:44
I used Konrad again this week. Smart tactics: leave him in a unit, not on the corner, and expose the unit's flank to some nasty enemy. They charge in and damage your unit, but it survives anyway. Then you move Konrad into contact in your turn, and he'll probably strike first (Book or Cart him up if his initiative isn't enough!), and do loads of damage back. Killed me a Manticore, then with the 4 extra attacks took down the Master on top too!

Helveticus
24-10-2008, 17:17
All three of the Bretonian Special characters give me fits.

Leoun sounds great. But only at 3K or better. He makes the core choices you need to be able to afford him special. The Fey Enchantress... Meh. She's not that inspiring to me. A lord level wizard in a Bretonian army. Yeah. Sign me up to dump a ton of points in a phase I can't do anything with anyway. The Green Knight does have a lot of appeal, but its tough giving up Ld 9 on my general.

Condottiere
24-10-2008, 17:31
I used Konrad again this week. Smart tactics: leave him in a unit, not on the corner, and expose the unit's flank to some nasty enemy. They charge in and damage your unit, but it survives anyway. Then you move Konrad into contact in your turn, and he'll probably strike first (Book or Cart him up if his initiative isn't enough!), and do loads of damage back. Killed me a Manticore, then with the 4 extra attacks took down the Master on top too!
Konrad can move within the unit when it lost combat resolution?

Helveticus
24-10-2008, 17:32
Just about any and every character can, during the controlling player's next movement phase.

Von Wibble
24-10-2008, 19:59
Khalidah's bound spell is also very good - pretty much guarantees the enemy will save a couple of dispel dice for it. She is actually pretty good in combat against monsters too - poison and D3 wounds with lots of attacks. And as mentioned she is relatively cheap and only a lord choice.

Korhil can make a unit in your army that is not white lions stubborn, allowing a unit with such rules that is also cheap (by high elf standards). Spearmen with him in and lion banner are going nowhere against undead - add in a unit of phoenix guard and white lions with banner of balance for a very difficult centre to break through.

larabic
24-10-2008, 20:20
Can't stand special characters, never use them, don't enjoy playing against them... tend to look down on others that use them waaaay to much or in tourny's... but hey it's there choice.

GideonRavenor
24-10-2008, 22:57
In a little late for the subject, but Vlad and Isabella are far from pointless - Vlad's virtually indestructable when you consider Invocation and all the other Vampire jazz, whilst Isabella makes him more so, and is leaves a nasty surprise if killed.

Luthor Huss, though, he's pitiful these days...