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View Full Version : Imperial Guard are going to rock



volair
17-10-2008, 14:52
if the rumors are true. Imagine the possiblities:

You deploy 6-9 leman russes and put all of your platoons in reserve. Your opponent has only AV14 to fire at. Blast him for a couple of turns and then platoons start coming down via deepstrike, unleashing hundreds of lasgun shots. I can't wait.

Shas'o Zor'bas
17-10-2008, 15:01
Seriously. Do you think this will ever happen. I leally want to see a powerfull IG codex but not something like this.

Nero
17-10-2008, 15:03
Pfah, to hell with the tanks, if I can have my stalingrad-style infantry-waves why bother with expenses like cannon shells and tank fuel? Men are cheap and easily replaced!

Seriously, 4-5pt guardsmen and I'll be happy. I don't care if I ever win, it'll be too much fun watching my soldiers die enmasse.

senorcardgage
17-10-2008, 15:03
Yeah, I don't really know what could stand much of a chance against all those russes. The last thing I want to see is people russ spamming like they did with carnifexes...

ehlijen
17-10-2008, 15:09
I highly doubt that free deepstrike will remain. Meaning that after you've shelled out for the 9 russes there is little in points left for much in the way of deepstrikers. At the current cost that would be at the least 1395 points. Ie not even enough for the 2 compulsory troop choices in a standard game. And I do not see them going down in points far enough to change that.

And do not forget that those 9 russes will be in 3 squadrons and therefore limited to firing at 3 targets per turn.

leo_neil316
17-10-2008, 15:09
if the rumors are true. Imagine the possiblities:

You deploy 6-9 leman russes and put all of your platoons in reserve. Your opponent has only AV14 to fire at. Blast him for a couple of turns and then platoons start coming down via deepstrike, unleashing hundreds of lasgun shots. I can't wait.

Actually yes I know a guy who never gets games because he's a cheesy git.

6-9 leman russes? Leman russes that, might i remind you (deep breath) WOULD DIE TO 6'S ON GLANCING HITS.

I want my infantry platoons, my sentinels, my ogryns, my advisors and my stormtroopers fixed please. My tanks are fine, just a tad too expensive.

volair
17-10-2008, 15:10
It's only fair that they can use lots of tanks, its not like they have infantry that can stand toe to toe with necron warriors, shoota boyz, etc...

Unclejo
17-10-2008, 15:11
What, are IG not using a force organisation chart anymore?

Maynard
17-10-2008, 15:12
Actually yes I know a guy who never gets games because he's a cheesy git.

6-9 leman russes? Leman russes that, might i remind you (deep breath) WOULD DIE TO 6'S ON GLANCING HITS.

I want my infantry platoons, my sentinels, my ogryns, my advisors and my stormtroopers fixed please. My tanks are fine, just a tad too expensive.


How do they die to 6's on glancing hits exactly?

jason_sation
17-10-2008, 15:14
What, are IG not using a force organisation chart anymore?

I think the rumor is that Tanks can be fielded in squadrons of three, like Sentinels.

ehlijen
17-10-2008, 15:17
As Jason said, russ squadrons.

Squadrons are hurt worse by immobilised results but in turn get free extra armour, basically.

MrBigMr
17-10-2008, 16:12
I don't really even want turbo tank formations. All I need are my carapace drop troops. Hopefully with valkyries and new toys.

x-esiv-4c
17-10-2008, 16:19
If IG can field squadrons of Leman russ tanks then they will nerf the hell out of the battlecannon, probably make AP4 so that all the marines will have an armor save.

Ubermensch Commander
17-10-2008, 16:37
*snickers a little* Oh no! The big scary armor 14 tanks! My Dark Lances and I are trembling in our flying cardboard boxes(also know as Dark Eldar Raiders). Seriously though, it would be obnoxious to see them spammed but I do not think it would be a game winning strategy. Their sheer points cost, an inability to hold objectives, combined with the new vehicle rules regarding moving, firing, and secondary weapons means that they are unlikely to be in and all that devastating. You would essentially have a moving wall. Scary sure, and it would have to be dealth with, but not game winning....just really really annoying.

*edit* of course, assuming these rumours are true that is, with squadrons of Russes being avaliabe.

IAMNOTHERE
17-10-2008, 17:01
Hmm lets think about this one a bit...

A pretty obvious list that youd expect to meet as oftem as Nidzilla so as I've said with those...

Multimeltas are your friend, deep striking twin linked multimeltas on dreads, attack bikes and speeders would make a mockery of this.

totgeboren
17-10-2008, 17:22
Im really looking forward to the new codex. Im even re-painting all my tanks and stuff to look super-awesome.

Still, I dont think I will be fielding more than 2 Leman Russes, even if I get to squadron them.

I just want cheaper infantry, and Ogres for about 20 pts per model. Max.

Oh, and the Griffon! Gief Itam plz! I love Griffons, they rock! And they look really good too. (Damn you Forgeworld!)

Lord Cook
17-10-2008, 17:37
if the rumors are true. Imagine the possiblities:

You deploy 6-9 leman russes and put all of your platoons in reserve. Your opponent has only AV14 to fire at. Blast him for a couple of turns and then platoons start coming down via deepstrike, unleashing hundreds of lasgun shots. I can't wait.

You're living in a fantasy. Not only would that cost at least 2000 points, the army would still be very poor with so many vehicles making easy prey without the necessary support.

senorcardgage
17-10-2008, 17:39
Hmm lets think about this one a bit...

A pretty obvious list that youd expect to meet as oftem as Nidzilla so as I've said with those...

Multimeltas are your friend, deep striking twin linked multimeltas on dreads, attack bikes and speeders would make a mockery of this.

I hate it when people write stuff like this. Not everyone can get these things, right? Just because you can come up with a list that can beat the Russ spam list doesn't mean that the russ spam list isn't bad.

In your regular list you won't be expecting to face it, and hence you won't come equipped with all the things mentioned above, and will hence get smoked. Yes, the russ list will still get beaten by some, but it totally overpowers 95% of the other lists.

eek107
17-10-2008, 18:00
If IG can field squadrons of Leman russ tanks then they will nerf the hell out of the battlecannon, probably make AP4 so that all the marines will have an armor save.

Why? The Russ is hardly unbalanced as it is. 6-9 will get prohibitively expensive if they keep the current points value (which I'd say is pretty okay at the moment).

Devil Tree
17-10-2008, 18:55
Iím in general agreement with the naysayers here. Guard players should be able to bring a mixed force, a mechanized force with lots of chimeras and Somme style all infantry. I donít, however, think having 6-9 Russes is such a good idea. Itís a one trick pony, costs a ton of points and is way too rock-scissors-paper for me.

I personally want to use wave after wave of cheaper infantry with a Russ or two.

senorcardgage
17-10-2008, 19:19
How is it prohibitively expensive? You can rock a leman russ for 145 points, meaning that 6 will run you just shy of 870 points and that leaves you with plenty of room in 1500/1700 points, and you can easily rock 9 of them in 2000.

avatar of kaine
17-10-2008, 19:32
you will have to have wit to know what i'm on about but about the russ's "for tanith for the emporor"

MrBigMr
17-10-2008, 19:39
Wonder if a Russ squad can have different types of tanks. Two Russes with a Vanquisher leader.

Lord Solar Plexus
17-10-2008, 19:42
You guys can have my Russes when I get a couple of Valkyries.

Oh, the Guard is rocking already!

Plastic Parody
17-10-2008, 20:37
while I doubt I will be fielding 9 tanks I truely hope they give the guard a lot of much need loving. For me allowing Leman Russ in squadrons is not going to cut it.

MrBigMr
17-10-2008, 20:52
while I doubt I will be fielding 9 tanks I truely hope they give the guard a lot of much need loving. For me allowing Leman Russ in squadrons is not going to cut it.
But isn't it the IG mentality? More is better.

Plastic Parody
17-10-2008, 21:21
But isn't it the IG mentality? More is better.

Absolutely yes it is, but there is a lot more to the IG than tanks. As already said above a lot of people play infantry horde lists so a squadron of tanks is a non event.

volair
17-10-2008, 21:31
Actually their isn't a lot more than tanks. Tanks are a defining feature of Imperial Guard. I look forward to a codex that lets me go half and half, tanks and infantry, like I have always wanted.

Ddraiglais
17-10-2008, 21:37
I hate it when people write stuff like this. Not everyone can get these things, right? Just because you can come up with a list that can beat the Russ spam list doesn't mean that the russ spam list isn't bad.

In your regular list you won't be expecting to face it, and hence you won't come equipped with all the things mentioned above, and will hence get smoked. Yes, the russ list will still get beaten by some, but it totally overpowers 95% of the other lists.

Almost everyone has something to take out armor in their list. If the 9 russes becomes a problem, then people will include more antitank weaponry.

If I were to play a normal game of 40K (I only play Apocalypse right now), I would definately include at least one squad of deep striking termies (possibly two) and a squad of oblits, and that's for all comers. That should be enough to at least hurt that list. Consider the fact that I almost always max out HS and keep some heavy/special weapons with my troops, that list doesn't scare me at all. As a matter of fact, I'd love to see my opponent sink so many points into so few units.

Dangersaurus
17-10-2008, 21:37
Absolutely yes it is, but there is a lot more to the IG than tanks. As already said above a lot of people play infantry horde lists so a squadron of tanks is a non event.

What about 2-5 squadrons with a command tank? Elite tank aces? Tank HQs?

What if it was a troops selection?

Plastic Parody
17-10-2008, 21:46
What about 2-5 squadrons with a command tank? Elite tank aces? Tank HQs?

What if it was a troops selection?

Those would be excellent additions to the dex, but I would rather play an infantry heavy army and so will be looking for extra bling in this department, not just a points reduction. Additional tank stuff I will use in APOC or scenario type games but thats it.

The Base
17-10-2008, 22:43
Why would this even make sense.

Seriously.... an average group of 3 would cost upwards of 500 points.

volair
17-10-2008, 23:07
I think with the half and half idea I would use 6 tanks for 870 points and spend the rest on deep striking platoons for a 1750 army. Deep strike may not be free anymore but it will probably be reasonably costed. Drop Pods are only 35 points per space marine unit and provide unrivaled safety to the deep striking unit, among other advantages, so plain old deep strike for imperial guard units will likely be considerably cheaper.

Walls
17-10-2008, 23:15
uh... 6 is like 1200pts. Where are you gonna fit a command squad and 2 troop choices in?

Bjornin
17-10-2008, 23:25
nah, volair's right about the 870 for 6, but they're all battle tanks with heavy bolter in the hull and no sponsons or extras. Way too many tanks for my taste. I like a balanced army, lots of points in guardsmen (33% of the army or more) and then split the rest amongst the rest of the force. But then again, i play for fun, and not necessarily to win.

edit: I usually play between 1000 and 1500 pts.

Caiphas Cain
17-10-2008, 23:29
Sorry to through this out there, but what are the current rumers? Ive been got for a month or so (Damn WoW) so whats new? and whats confermed (if anything)?
but if the old rumers are true guard will be the new SM becasue of there cheese

Vaktathi
17-10-2008, 23:36
In all honesty, the LR Squadrons aren't a huge thing for me. Personally, I would like to see the infantry made decent again, the Chimera made useful and much cheaper, Stormtroopers as actual decent troops instead of overpriced crap (as well as remain a possible *troops* choice), the Sentinel made much cheaper, and I'd like to see more of the FW IG stuff included and properly costed downward for most of it.

the1stpip
18-10-2008, 00:10
End of the day, doing that will result in you either a) not getting games, or b) people coming tooled up just to face you.

You will get a bad rep, all Guard players will get a bad rep, and we will be facing a horde of people complaining how guard are broken.

Personally, I don't understand why people complain about Guard as much as they do. Yes, the troops and heavy weapons are a little over priced, and free drop troops are wrong, but I have no problems running with my standard list, with 75 basic troop models.

It makes me wonder why these people spend their time dreaming up killer lists that have no place in the background. It is a game, between two people who want to enjoy themselves, not a chance to exercise your ego.

Vaktathi
18-10-2008, 00:14
Personally, I don't understand why people complain about Guard as much as they do. Yes, the troops and heavy weapons are a little over priced, and free drop troops are wrong, but I have no problems running with my standard list, with 75 basic troop models.

It makes me wonder why these people spend their time dreaming up killer lists that have no place in the background. It is a game, between two people who want to enjoy themselves, not a chance to exercise your ego.

My last game would be a good example. 3 hellhounds, 2 russ tanks, a demolisher, and 60 stormtroopers on the field, I manage to kill a grand total of 4 CSM's turn 1. By turn 5 the majority of my army was killed off by 3 CSM units :(


Granted there was a lot of *terrible* rolling in there, but the cost disadvantages really make for some terribly stilted matchups.

keatsmeister
18-10-2008, 00:37
Guard tanks are what won me over to getting Guard as my first army way back when, but I just can't see myself or any of my regular opponents Russ spamming like that. Previous replies have covered it well enough, you'd limit what you can actually aim at, and you'd have no real staying power against a balanced opponent.

I think this would be one force I'd love to field my White Scars against, all those Attack Bike multimeltas, assault cannons strafing the armour 12 flanks, and for once I might not be so badly outnumbered! :D

A squadron of Demolishers used in close support of Platoons might come in handy, or even a squadron of Conquerors if they appear in the new 'dex, but that many Russes? Save it for Apocalypse games :)

McPherson
18-10-2008, 00:41
Personally what i'm waiting to see is if I can take squadrons of Hellhounds.

9 hellhounds in an army is enough to make me happy - Forget russes and basilisks, let me have some hot toasty fireloving.

- McPherson

ehlijen
18-10-2008, 00:55
Keep in mind the squadroning rules will severly reduce the overall power of 9 russes:

You're limited to 3 targets per turn. Just as if you'd bought 3 russes singly. Sure, those targets will die more, but it means you can't even touch the rest of the enemy army.

Weapon destroyed results will quickly cripple such a squadron. How do 3 tanks with only 1 BC and 3 HB sound? Or shakens? Having the tanks in a squadron makes them far easier to suppress as surplus damage results spill over into the squadron memebers instead of being discarded.

Tanks in squadrons die more easily, but are more mobile in the face of incoming fire. Not a trade off in favour of the russ.

3 Basic russes cost as much as 10 termies with 2 ACs (about), ie a lot of points. about 30% of a standard size game in fact, in one unit, that can be supressed with a semi decently lucky AT attack.

Squadrons are something funky to play with for those who don't want every vehicle to give up a KP, not something that will actually let you spam successfully.

Volker
18-10-2008, 01:15
I am really looking forward to being able to match the cheesiness of cheese that other armies have like chaos and 'nids have. I play a cheesy guard army (well as cheesy as it goes for guard which isn't saying much) which in 1000 points features 127 men including 10 plasma guns and 10 melta guns. Oh and they all deep strike. Yet I have faced "balanced" army's and get wiped off the board. It would be really nice if I could do something against daemon princes and other horribly under priced monsters.

Shangrila
18-10-2008, 02:30
While I love the guard, and i Do believe in the leman Russ squadron as one heavy choice i feel 0-1 would also be appropriate. Leaving 2 slots open for say a basilisk and a heavy weapons platoon. As Doctrines are sure to be taken away I would like the ability to improve my 350 guardsmen by making them cheaper.Since orks are 6 points per model guardsmen should be 5 or 7 with a free vox caster and special weapon, or just the ability to carry 2 special weapons instead of a heavy one. There are many things that would make Guard better, i just hope we get some so we can continue to compete.

And if i did my math right i can run 115 infantry models with special weapon and vox caster plus 2 leman russes for 1500. Not bad IMO.

Chem-Dog
18-10-2008, 03:23
How do they die to 6's on glancing hits exactly?

Simplicity itself, 4 on the damage chart (ie 6 minus 2 for the glancing hit) is "Immobilised" and squadron vehicles are counted as destroyed if immobilised.

I think , personally, that the squadron of Russes is MOST valuable not for the spam factor (if the squadron was a possibility I'm sure it'd be 0-1) but for the two HS slots it leaves open for other stuff, Basilisks and HW platoons are currently the only ones but I can imagine a few more getting a look in.

And for those who think a Russ heavy army is a good idea, think again, an immobilised or destroyed tank can block LoS or more importantly it can block routes of access, you can have whole columns of tanks sat around with nowhere to go because the lead vehicle is immobilised, I've seen tanks get stuck on the remains of the tank in front (3 times in a row in the same game).
Also having a majority of your army's firepower capable of a 12" scatter every turn can REALLY reduce their effectiveness.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
18-10-2008, 03:31
This tank squadron rumour leaves me underwhelmed. If it's something that is thrown on top of a well-balanced, combined-arms IG army list, given a Codex: Orks style renaissance, then fine I'm sure somebody will enjoy losing all their gaming buddies by spamming Leman Russ tanks. But as it stands this rumour in no way goes to solving the various shortcomings of the army. When it comes to gaming, only armoured company players like armoured companies.

Copella
18-10-2008, 03:58
A Russ squadron would be one hell of a kill point to get. :p
Yes, I am trying to be funny.

TheOverlord
18-10-2008, 03:58
6-9 leman russes is nearly your entire army, with no upgrades at 1500 points.

I'd like to see those 2 squads of men drop down to die once those armor 14s die from powerfists in close combat O_o

volair
18-10-2008, 04:21
6-9 leman russes is nearly your entire army, with no upgrades at 1500 points.

I'd like to see those 2 squads of men drop down to die once those armor 14s die from powerfists in close combat O_o

I would go with about 5 tanks in 1500, which is slightly less than half of the army.

BTW, I doubt that leman russes are going to be actual vehicle squadrons. They will most likely be tank platoons, just liek guardsmen platoons. You can take 3 tanks per platoon and they deploy independently. This is far more likely. Vehicle squadrons of big, ordnance firing tanks is clunky and doesn;t really work. The vehicle squadron rules only make sense for walkers and light skimmers.

Chem-Dog
18-10-2008, 04:45
6-9 leman russes is nearly your entire army, with no upgrades at 1500 points.

I'd like to see those 2 squads of men drop down to die once those armor 14s die from powerfists in close combat O_o

Or see them die as the tank they're desperately trying to hide behind explodes taking them with it :evilgrin:

jason_sation
18-10-2008, 05:01
I do wonder if this ends up being true, if this is GW's way to make a "legal" armored company. Maybe you will have to take a special character that "unlocks" this many tanks and allows some of them to be troop choices. I'm not familiar with Space Marines, but isn't there a character in the new Marine Codex that allows for bikes to be taken as troop choices? I could be wrong.

Anyways, if they do something like this, I hope they make a Drop Troop special character and a Grenadier special character to "unlock" those troop organizations, if they end up doing away with doctrines. (Which according to the rumors is likely).

stevester79
18-10-2008, 06:13
I think being able to put 3 LR's in one heavy slot would be nice so you can fit some other things in your army with those LR's like basilisk and heavy weapon platoons in the other two slots. and if the rumours are true griffons as well. I miss the griffon.

I have an armoured company I play with often and that 14 front armour means nothing when your outflanked and assaulted. 12 on the side and 10 armour in the back. I don't think 9 LR's is overpowering

Damocles8
18-10-2008, 06:32
I can't really see squadrons of Russ's using the Squadron rules....I would think it'd be something similar to Lictors (bought as 3 but operate individually)

Lord Solar Plexus
18-10-2008, 08:15
Almost everyone has something to take out armor in their list. If the 9 russes becomes a problem, then people will include more antitank weaponry.


Almost everyone has some tools in his codex, yes, but whether they have included sufficient numbers of lascannon etc. to deal with 9 Russes is a completely different question. Surely a balanced all-comers list will suffer, yes? After all, the fact that it can possibly be beaten if you tailor for it is a non sequitur because it applies to everything so accordingly there can be no strong list.


End of the day, doing that will result in you either a) not getting games, or b) people coming tooled up just to face you.

You will get a bad rep, all Guard players will get a bad rep, and we will be facing a horde of people complaining how guard are broken.

And who precisely cares? If Nids can take Nidzilla - mind you, an MC is much tougher than any tank - and Chaos had/have their Oblits and Orks have 170 boyz etc. then I see no reason why the Guard should get a bad rep for doing it exactly this way.


My last game would be a good example. 3 hellhounds, 2 russ tanks, a demolisher, and 60 stormtroopers on the field, I manage to kill a grand total of 4 CSM's turn 1. By turn 5 the majority of my army was killed off by 3 CSM units :(

I don't think that was a pre-determined outcome.

Brother Caine
29-10-2008, 13:42
I hate it when people write stuff like this. Not everyone can get these things, right? Just because you can come up with a list that can beat the Russ spam list doesn't mean that the russ spam list isn't bad.

In your regular list you won't be expecting to face it, and hence you won't come equipped with all the things mentioned above, and will hence get smoked. Yes, the russ list will still get beaten by some, but it totally overpowers 95% of the other lists.

I just wanted to say that in my standard Dark Angels list I field 3 plasma cannons, 2 multi-meltas, 2 lascannons, 2 meltas, 3 plasmaguns and quite a few missle launchers. Add to this the fact that I usually use my Ravenwing and Scout units to outflank and that my Deathwing unit lead by a chaplain would hit ground on the first turn! Im pretty confident that I could beat the proposed list. On the other hand who knows? We may both be cursed by the dice gods and bad lines of site untill your troops show up and then I may have a problem. If I where an armor hound (and I am when playing my IG) I would still go for the good old method of pointing my HQ and Troops first. Remember without those units you don't even get to play!:confused: Then focus on bringing the big guns to bear. I don't think your concept list is a horrible idea. I just think it may need a little tweaking to be both lethal & legal. Good luck. In the mean time I may have to proxy up a few Russes here at home so I can play a game aganst your concept list just to see the outcome! Thanks for the inspiration!

Brother Caine
29-10-2008, 13:47
I do wonder if this ends up being true, if this is GW's way to make a "legal" armored company. Maybe you will have to take a special character that "unlocks" this many tanks and allows some of them to be troop choices. I'm not familiar with Space Marines, but isn't there a character in the new Marine Codex that allows for bikes to be taken as troop choices? I could be wrong.

Anyways, if they do something like this, I hope they make a Drop Troop special character and a Grenadier special character to "unlock" those troop organizations, if they end up doing away with doctrines. (Which according to the rumors is likely).

I agree. I love drop troops! I also worry about losing options when the doctrines are discarded, But we may be pleasantly suprised with how GW Handles the issue as well.

Brother Caine
29-10-2008, 13:50
Oh, and the deal with the new marines codex is you can field a White Scars list that is very bike heavy similar to my Ravenwing.

Ensis Ferrae
29-10-2008, 14:44
am i reading too much into this thread in thinking that its about being able to squadron all vehicles under the 5th ed. codex for IG?? if so, what would keep people from fielding a full squadron of basilisks??

Brucopeloso
29-10-2008, 15:52
I'd love to face a 6-9 russ army! It's a list guaranteed to loose in 4/6 games (little or no troops to claim objectives). With little or no infantry protection it will be massacred by infantry in CC (all CC is now against rear armour), will suffer unspeakably against deep strikers (especially with bare bones russ with no sponsons) and against decent gunlines.

What can I say? Bring it on! Is the balanced army I fear.

:evilgrin:

the1stpip
29-10-2008, 19:43
There is no need to go with uber lists.

Once people figure out you are taking them, and how to handle them, you will get owned.

A balanced list is always the way to go.

The other problem is, of course, is trying to take objectives with your two 10 man squads. You complain about kill points now, how much worse would it be taking objectives?

I have to admit, the idea of taking more Hellhounds is very appealing (at 1500 pts, all three of my FA choices are taken) but I would only squeeze one more in.

And do you have to lower yourselves to the level of xenos and heretics? Have faith in the Emperor, trust your lasgun and overwhelm the enemy with your righteous fury.

This is a game people, to be enjoyed, not to decimate your ooponent with not a hint of effort.