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volair
17-10-2008, 14:58
I keep reading and hearing that Tau got the shaft in 5th and struggle to win competitive matches now. Doesn't the old strategy of 4-5 devilfishes full of fire warriors and 3 hammerheads with railguns still work?

senorcardgage
17-10-2008, 15:00
They have to change their tactics for sure. I see a trend going towards much more static lists. They don't have to worry about assaulters as much any more because the assaulters cannot move from combat to combat and you can obliterate the squad after they beat one of yours. Not to mention kroot rock now!

ehlijen
17-10-2008, 15:04
The only problem I can see is that single suit teams are a major liability in annihilation missions with the new LOS rules now. But that is hardly a reason to call the entire army bad. I don't know, maybe they're of the group that believe that CC is now inevitable and even deadlier and that there is (so the claim) no counterbalance such as easier gaining of LOS for shooting and the like.

The tau still work, and the army you suggested should work rather ok.

AfroCelt
17-10-2008, 15:51
I feel a tremendous difference with my Tau between 4th and 5th simply because it stole a ton of our mobile firepower away. Devilfish-mobile squads do still work, but you do it knowing that the lone squad is a sacrifice unit.

You can still compete, but it's very tough.

electricblooz
17-10-2008, 16:29
Absolutely not,

Tau, essentially, got all the advantages that were "applied" to shooting based armies (no consolidation into combat, slightly improved LOS, etc.) while retaining their superior mobility and shooting capacity. Furhtermore, with the exception of single suit units, the Tau do not unduly suffer in KP missions (unlike some other armies who cannot help but give away vast amounts of KP for little benefit otherwise).

In short - if anything - the only negative the Tau face in 5th is that they must now be more circumspect in the terrain they choose to hide behind while playing the inane JSJ tactic. (NOTE: lack of sufficent terrian that would truly hide a suit is not the fault of 5th ed. it is the fault of the players who fail to make such terrain.) Otherwise, the Tau really have nothing to complain about in 5th.

Vedar
17-10-2008, 17:22
One thing not mentioned yet is just about everything getting 4+ cover saves hurts a lot of heavy shooty armies. I tend to stay back and blast transports and suits or ignore suits and move in a charge troops. I'm pretty sure I've never lost to Tau but most of the Tau players are newer players. I like playing against Tau mostly because they are not space marines.

Brother Loki
17-10-2008, 17:38
Fish of Fury and JSJ are probably less effective than they were in 4th, but then the lack of consolidation into combat more than makes up for it.

@Afrocelt - lone firewarrior squad? Tau's all about concentrating firepower on one spot and moving on to the next target. 2-3 full FW squads rapid fire the hell out of a target (preferably at BS5 due to markerlight support) and then jump in their fish and move on.

Creeping Dementia
17-10-2008, 17:41
Short answer: No.


Long answer: While it's true we can't play in exactly the same way as we did in fourth, with a few small adaptations the good Tau players are still extremely competetive. I find that the biggest challenges do come from KP missions, but the rest of the games its not hard to easily slaughter opponents.

Our tanks are even harder to take down now, and all with a simple 5pt upgrade (disruption pods).

Our tanks are slower? Maybe a little if you still want to shoot everything, the Warfish is out (Devilfish with burst/SMS) and hammerheads are slower but the rail submunition shot makes up for it now. Tried a Skyray in fifth yet, they're great.

Markerlights are easier to take and are vastly more survivable and mobile now that our suits are relentless.

Free drones from Piranha and Devilfish can be mobile cover saves, jumping out of the way when we shoot you, jumping back in the way in the assault phase before you can shoot back. Good luck assaulting or getting rid of 4+ covers.

Hammerhead submunition against horde armies, lol game over.

Running lets your bait units actually have a chance to survive during a Kau'yon tactic (bait and flank).

I have noticed that there are always players that are unable to change tactics with new rule-sets, usually through because of being stubborn, but Tau are extremely far from being a "bad" army right now.

AfroCelt
17-10-2008, 18:43
@Afrocelt - lone firewarrior squad? Tau's all about concentrating firepower on one spot and moving on to the next target. 2-3 full FW squads rapid fire the hell out of a target (preferably at BS5 due to markerlight support) and then jump in their fish and move on.

Ah so that's why my Tau are suffering compared to my Marines and Orks :)

One more negative to add: those KP missions do hurt Tau, mainly because of:

-Low Ld. units can and will run on you, needing a 5 point upgrade to get a second chance at life.

-Low model count. Units, other than Kroot, are fairly low model count with decent but not unbeatable armor saves.

-Gun Drones off of vehicles add an extra kp. You need to adapt accordingly.

Tau can and will kick butt, and I've recently taken a break off my 'Ard Boyz Tourney Orks to have fun with them. I feel that they did indeed get weaker, but they're still great fun....and they suffer nothing compared to IG :P

neo1215
17-10-2008, 18:53
Having played Tau for nearly 2 years, I can reasonably conclude through a lot of playing experience that the army as a whole has not been nerfed, but it's been significantly toned down in the variety of strategies it can employ to defeat an opponent.

The free gun drones now offer KP's, this is important because I now have to pay points to reduce the # of KPs on vehicles. This is contrary to common sense and is very, very frustrating because paying that upgrade means my vehicles have to move less (Devilfish).

Most of the original Tau strategy back in 4th edition was designed around the idea of maneuver. This was not to literally out-flank the enemy, but to maneuver free units like gun drones and units like piranhas to force target priority checks to protect our vulnerable leadership 8 T3 infantry. Several of Tau upgrades deal explicitly with aiding target priority tests or manipulating them in some way. FoF can still work, but only en masse. A few other vehicle upgrades have become completely redundant and even our "free" landing gear is now redundant; you can't die from an immobilized shot as a skimmer because we can't move more than 12" in a turn now.

Kroot got rather interesting, but they die even harder in melee than they did before because they have no armor save and I3 T3 which means guardsman can beat them up in melee.

Vespid are as terrible as before due to their over-cost unit price tag.

Crisis suits got needlessly nerfed; a 62 point fireknife has only 3 shots most of the time and 1.5 of those will hit which are negated by ubiquitous 4+ cover saves on infantry and tanks. our ONLY heavy weapons platform can no longer realistically hide and makes JSJ kinda, well, odd. normal jump infantry rules would be better in 5th.

The only competitive way to play Tau right now is maybe a gun-line with shadowsun backed up by hammerheads, or a completely mech-list. Hybrid lists are much harder to pull off because those fought a war of target priority and harassment, which is no longer applicable.

Tau are strong by virtue of ubiquitous S5 weapons, but that's it. All their interesting strategies and tricks are gone and makes the army as a whole far more boring to play with and against.

Plastic Parody
17-10-2008, 20:10
Been playing 40K since 2nd ed but relatively new to the Tau. I cant say I have noticed a huge nerfing after 5th. The two best known 'tactics' are.

Fish o fury: nerfed as you can no longer use your devilfish (which now does block line of sight) to shield your fire warriors from being charged while leaving their shooting unaffected. This also allowed for larger squads than is now practical. Maybe its just me but that was always rather 'gamey' anyway so I think its fine. Concentration of fire is key, you just need to make sure that there is nothing left to charge you. Alternatively the drones supplied with the Devilfish can help.

JSJ doesnt work: chumps! stop moaning and go build some decent terrain. Nuf said. :D

IMHO the Tau are an amazing army which plays very differently to every other army out there. 5th has stopped or made the easy tactics tougher to pull off but I enjoy the challenge and love it when I have a perfectly sited broadside team able to blast virtually any vehicle on the board to bitz - true LOS works both ways remember.

Also, as a guard player since 3rd ed was I the only one creaming myself with the consolidation rules changes? No longer can assault based armies be utterly lazy, getting units in to combat when ever possible/convenient/safe which then just rolled up my IG lines with not much to threaten them. With the Tau is even better as any enemy unit that has charged me has either been wiped out in my following turn or left with nothing else to reach depending on how close it is to my firebase (If I have a static one).

Shas'o Zor'bas
18-10-2008, 11:07
They changed too much that's the problem, we just have to accept this and it will be OK, as there are rules that give the Tau more possibilities than ever.
An update wouldn't be bad though:)

Sidstyler
18-10-2008, 11:30
nerfed as you can no longer use your devilfish (which now does block line of sight)

Err, no it doesn't? You can still see under it, the enemy squad gets a cover save at best, but LOS isn't blocked completely.

Unless of course there's an invisible wall underneath the thing that blocks fire...

borithan
18-10-2008, 11:32
JSJ doesnt work: chumps! stop moaning and go build some decent terrain. Nuf said.While I am not terribly bothered by the loss of JSJ, I always dislike this argument (applies to terrain generally, not just for Tau). It is irritating that now things activly have to block LOS to block LOS. Frankly the few games I have played now seems to degenerate into everyone having a 4+ save, as terrain no longer blocks LOS automatically, meaning things can (often) be seen across the board if using old terrain collections (built using economy and usability in mind, rather than being solid blocks of whatever it is representing). Building terrain takes time, and skill, which not everyone has in great quantities, and it is irritating having your old collection invalidated (unles, as I said, you are fine with everyone acting as if the board was empty except they all receive a 4+ save).

Basically it has removed the variety from terrain (except if you have the time and money to make more terrain, but even then, you have to create terrain that is very difficult to move anything into it). Now, everything shouldn't be blocking terrain, but neither should everything be done using TLOS, which results in oddities (yay, my unit hiding in a building can be seen as models don't duck and press themselves against walls in a building and you can see some of their heads), and frankly makes no sense with other elements of the rules. Having TLOS and area terrain makes no sense, as either you have everything that is in that terrain modelled, and it is TLOS, or you have representations of what is there, and so don't need TLOS, but it seems to be somewhere in between now.



Err, no it doesn't? You can still see under it, the enemy squad gets a cover save at best, but LOS isn't blocked completely.

Unless of course there's an invisible wall underneath the thing that blocks fire...Well, if I remember correctly, it depends on how you have modeled it. With TLOS if it is low enough that the Tau cannot see through it from head height, it blocks LOS. The standard stands provided have it at a height that blocks LOS. Now, if you model it on a higher stand, then yes, you would be correct (and further demonstrates the weirdness of TLOS).

Sidstyler
18-10-2008, 12:43
...hmm, well I don't model them in any special way, I just use the longest stand that comes with it, so you might be right and I just never noticed.

I'll have to check next time I actually play a game, but I don't ever rely on FoF anyway. I usually park my fish sideways and have them all pile out of the back and side in plain sight. If they get too close for comfort I hop back in the fish and run away.

borithan
18-10-2008, 12:53
Not played much as tau, and dont think I would have used FoF anyway, but it is now partly nerfed (not that it invalidates mechanised Tau).

Plastic Parody
18-10-2008, 14:08
Err, no it doesn't? You can still see under it, the enemy squad gets a cover save at best, but LOS isn't blocked completely.

Unless of course there's an invisible wall underneath the thing that blocks fire...

Ok, well to explain a little more then it makes it more difficult than before or often grants a 4+ cover save which can reduce the effectiveness. According to a lot of people this counts as a nerf mate - not my opinion. As I said I dont agree with that view point.


While I am not terribly bothered by the loss of JSJ, I always dislike this argument (applies to terrain generally, not just for Tau). It is irritating that now things activly have to block LOS to block LOS.

Maybe its an age thing or something. Having started playing 2nd ed where it was TLOS area terrain always annoyed me though I appreciate why it was used and why people miss it. Its hardly the complete loss of the tactic though, as I said it makes it more difficult but its not impossible. Unless the terrain is all too small hence my comment, as I had to modify a few bits of my terrain to make them useful again. And no JSJ was not why I did that ;-p

Znail
18-10-2008, 15:57
...hmm, well I don't model them in any special way, I just use the longest stand that comes with it, so you might be right and I just never noticed.

I'll have to check next time I actually play a game, but I don't ever rely on FoF anyway. I usually park my fish sideways and have them all pile out of the back and side in plain sight. If they get too close for comfort I hop back in the fish and run away.

The longest stand is taller then a firewarrior so you havent done anything wrong. Most people just used the shortest or even had them standing directly on the ground.

borithan
18-10-2008, 18:28
Maybe its an age thing or something. Having started playing 2nd ed where it was TLOS area terrain always annoyed me though I appreciate why it was used and why people miss it. Even forests? I know in Rogue Trader most things were TLOS, but it was not true for forests (and hiding troops), even though in the case of rogue trader there is probably more reason for it to be TLOS (as it had an explicit ground scale of 1"=2 metres, and you could only see through 2" of forest... meaning very thick forests).

TheMav80
18-10-2008, 18:31
I've always used the shorter stands because the longer ones tended to snap.

I have not had a problem with Terrain in 5th either. All those CoD buildings that are built as just straight two level walls are blocking. We use any of the CoD buildings not built onto a footprint of some kind, as blocking not area terrain.

Vaktathi
18-10-2008, 19:06
I keep reading and hearing that Tau got the shaft in 5th and struggle to win competitive matches now. Doesn't the old strategy of 4-5 devilfishes full of fire warriors and 3 hammerheads with railguns still work?

Tau have a couple problems. First, the new defensive weapons rules make their expensive upgrades rather less effective. Second, with respect to Kill Points, those silly gun drones on devilfish count for Kill Points, making an army that is already above average on KP's into IG range for KPs often. Also, the ubiquitous 4+ cover saves make much of their firepower much less scary. TLoS also makes Crisis Suits much less survivable.


That said, Tau also have some pretty hefty advantages. They can always get 4+ cover saves on their tanks when being shot at from 12" or more, they are the only skimmers that can get an upgrade that allows them to enter terrain without danger, Markerlights become *really* useful against vehicles, and a few other things.


Overall, while Tau do get hurt by 5th in some ways, they also get some really cool benefits. They aren't quiet as good as they were before, but still don't have it anywhere near as bad as IG for instance.

Shas'o Zor'bas
19-10-2008, 11:28
WHAT??? IG are weakened by 5th Edition :p. Good joke. They have so many blast weapons that half their army doesn't need to roll for BS. I hate seeing my crisis suits being wiped out by a basilisk from the first turn or my fire warriors being killed one by one with grenade Launchers or mortars.

When I play with my friend in turn number three I just have my hammerheads and my commander thanks to shield drones and disruption pods.

Sidstyler
19-10-2008, 11:33
Your luck sounds a lot like mine. Sad thing is a lot of people insist that Tau are crazy overpowered and I just don't see it.

But then again, we're probably just incompetent/playing wrong. :p

the1stpip
19-10-2008, 15:19
They're not bad, but they do lack a decent counter attack force (which ios pretty much against their philiosophy) and Kroot dont really cut it.

I have been tempted by them, but I dont want to do a gunline.

Othiem
19-10-2008, 16:48
Actually I think the whole free gun drones counting for KPs makes sense, even if it does suck for us Tau. The free drones are some of the best anti assault speed bumps in the game, and that combined with no more consolidate into combat means that anybody who assaults the drones will eat a ton of rapid fire next round. Thus KPs reward the enemy for doing the smart thing and shooting down the drones. The situation before, drones were simply not worth the points to waste a whole round of shooting against, so the scoring system actually punished your opponent for making a tactically sound choice. As it stands now, I'd much rather have somebody charge the drones, lose that KP, and keep my FW squad opposed to paying more for an upgrade on a fish that I won't use, and losing the FW squad to an assault. Either way you give up the same number of KPs, however with the drones you come out ahead in useable units.

SinCollector
19-10-2008, 16:54
That said, Tau also have some pretty hefty advantages. They can always get 4+ cover saves on their tanks when being shot at from 12" or more, they are the only skimmers that can get an upgrade that allows them to enter terrain without danger, Markerlights become *really* useful against vehicles, and a few other things.


Those cover saves can be a big deal. They negated my fire for nearly an entire game this past Thursday. Sooo frustrating.

-Sin

Vaktathi
19-10-2008, 19:05
WHAT??? IG are weakened by 5th Edition :p. Good joke. They have so many blast weapons that half their army doesn't need to roll for BS. I hate seeing my crisis suits being wiped out by a basilisk from the first turn or my fire warriors being killed one by one with grenade Launchers or mortars. You forgot that the IG army will generally have more kill points than most other armies, their enemies can get into CC faster, their tanks lost much of their mobile firepower (and no, not every IG tank has a battlecannon, and even when it does, there are many situations where 3 HB's is better), etc....

With respect to all those blast weapons, just because they don't roll to hit with BS doesn't really mean much, they only land dead on 1/3rd of the time, and when firing indirectly they *don't* get to subtract their ballistic skill. Granted they can hurt en-masse, but then you should be aware of this and take steps to mitigate such damage such as spread troops out, cover, etc...

IG always had a ton of blast weapons, and Crisis Suits have *always* had a problem with basilisks, but many people forget it has a minimum 36" range as well, meaning even if stuck in a corner, it can't hit much of the board. Given that your Fire Warriors are roughly equivalent to IG stormtroopers (T3, 4+sv, S5 BS3 guns instead of BS4 S3, etc...) its not hard to see that they will die to massed S3/4 blast weapons. That said, Tau's many advantages over IG are pretty apparent (S5 30" basic guns, S5 4shot weapons that don't need LoS, etc)

That said, Tau tanks are better at just about everything than IG tanks with the exception of MEQ hunting, in addition to being more survivable on average (better armor on transports, and while the hammerhead is only AV13/12/10 vs the LR's 14/12/10, the LR can't get a constant 4+ cover save or fire after moving up to 12")

Tau also have the advantage in that they don't need the vast majority of their units to remain stationary to put out firepower like the Imperial Guard do.

Frostbane
27-10-2008, 12:27
OK, so I'm new to 40K and the tau are my first army. As most would suspect I have yet to win a game but i have come close, and im not sure of what i am doing wrong. I am trying to get help from local resources but most of them are used to the 4th ed rules and as it seems to be a universal truth the tau can not fight the same way as they have in the past. So does anyone have some tips and advice they are willing to share?

Shatter Cake
27-10-2008, 14:53
Tau are petty awesome right now. You can't run around with single suit units any more but a lot of the units did become stronger. There was a shift in gear on vehicles (from one 5pt for counting as a fast vehicle to a 5 point to always be obscurred at 12+ inches) but other than that little had to be changed.

The prevalence of Dawn of War also made the acute sense on suits really helpful, blacksun filter is even better.

itcamefromthedeep
27-10-2008, 16:04
always hitting on rear armor in close combat hurt Tau, because they don't fight enemy tanks in close combat.

Defensive weapons change reduced the firepower on their tanks a bit, but that hurts everyone who uses tanks. That puts Tyranids up, which hurts Tau by comparison.

Running hurts Tau, first because they don't use it as much as enemies do such that enemies get a benefit that Tau do not. Second, and more importantly, it means anyone trying to assault the Tau are far faster.

Improved cover hurts Tau a lot. 'Nuff said.

Tau are helped by the restriction against consolidating into enemies as stated by others. The more subtle advantage here is the change to combat resolution which means that a Fire Warrior team will very likely flee from competent combatants, meaning that the enemy will not be in combat during the Tau turn.

There are a number of other subtle changes in the mechanics of the game, but the scenarios are the big problem for Tau. In Annihilation, the Devilfish and lone Crisis suits provide a lot of kill points, forcing a change in the list away from mobility and flexibility in shooting. In objective based games, the Tau force will likely be asked to advance and take an objective from an opponent. This is, of course, precisely what Tau do not want to have to do. Tau armies everywhere need to shoot enemies off of objectives in cover, which is difficult.

The bad news for Tau can be summed up as follows:

The slower Tau force needs to get closer to the enemy and attack entrenched troops with Fire Warriors (or Kroot).

olmsted
27-10-2008, 16:42
Err, no it doesn't? You can still see under it, the enemy squad gets a cover save at best, but LOS isn't blocked completely.

Unless of course there's an invisible wall underneath the thing that blocks fire...

actually there is. page 71, moving skimmrs. note that a skimmer must be set down on the table and left in place at the end of its move. it cannot be left hovering in mid air.

SPYDER68
27-10-2008, 16:46
3x Hammerheads with decoy launchers (i think thats the ones) that make all hits that arent within 12" Obscuring ?... yes Please....

72 Fire warriors for 720 ish points with new assault and cover rules....

Tau Spanking a player that thinks they arent that good = priceless.

ReveredChaplainDrake
27-10-2008, 20:00
actually there is. page 71, moving skimmrs. note that a skimmer must be set down on the table and left in place at the end of its move. it cannot be left hovering in mid air.
I believe this is in reference to the fact that you have to set the flying stand down, not take the vehicle off the stand. In other words, no taking a Hammerhead and holding it two feet off the board and saying "let's just say it's hovering right about here", particularly if you're using it to deny cover saves when it shoots. The only time a vehicle is ever required to remove its flying stand is if it gets immobilized or wrecked (P71, Shooting at Vehicles, paragraph 3). For a somewhat off-the-wall (but RAW!) counterexample, look on page 84. There's a Hammerhead firing a submunition Railgun shot, but doing so from its flying stand.

However, Tau are special. They can remove their flying stand at will with their Landing Gears, allowing Tau skimmers to block LoS by choice. JSJ, anyone?


always hitting on rear armor in close combat hurt Tau, because they don't fight enemy tanks in close combat.
Well it doesn't necessarily hurt us. It just doesn't help. Although Kroot outflanking can actually cause damage to tanks now, but Tau never needed help dealing with enemy armor.


Defensive weapons change reduced the firepower on their tanks a bit, but that hurts everyone who uses tanks. That puts Tyranids up, which hurts Tau by comparison.
You don't have to shoot with tanks, y'know. Nor does anybody else. Though if you insist on it, Gun Drones that fire from a Tank may always fire in addition to any other tank's weapons. So a Devilfish w/ Multi-tracker moving 12" can shoot all its basic guns.


Running hurts Tau, first because they don't use it as much as enemies do such that enemies get a benefit that Tau do not. Second, and more importantly, it means anyone trying to assault the Tau are far faster.
Tau can run just as much as anybody else. In fact, I do it quite often, but only because I don't actually own a second Devilfish. Besides, it's not like enemies can run and then assault (unless they fleet *shudder*), so they have to use at least some intelligence, or they'll get stuck out to dry right in rapid firing range.


Improved cover hurts Tau a lot. 'Nuff said.
It also helps Kroot a lot. 3+ cover in woods is amazing for a model that cheap. Also, "improved" cover (TLoS) allows Markerlights to see through cover completely, and since Markerlights don't cause wounds, the enemy gets no cover save from the Markerlights themselves.

Tau can also make use of cover. In fact, with 4+ armor saves, why not? Marines often don't because of their 3+ armor saves often being superior to cover, but in practice, Fire Warriors are pretty tough to dislodge in cover from a range because their save will always be a 4+ when in cover.


Tau are helped by the restriction against consolidating into enemies as stated by others. The more subtle advantage here is the change to combat resolution which means that a Fire Warrior team will very likely flee from competent combatants, meaning that the enemy will not be in combat during the Tau turn.

Here's actually a problem with Tau. Their 4+ save could ignore a lot of wounds in CC, so unless facing an enemy with a power weapon (and even in those cases), there's always the chance that Tau can stick around in CC. I've played just 3 games with Tau and it's already happened to me twice!


There are a number of other subtle changes in the mechanics of the game, but the scenarios are the big problem for Tau. In Annihilation, the Devilfish and lone Crisis suits provide a lot of kill points, forcing a change in the list away from mobility and flexibility in shooting.

It's not as bad as you make it out to be. As mentioned before, Gun Drones rightfully give up Kill Points because it beats losing actual Fire Warriors. Monat Crisis teams are also pretty good because they can hide with far greater ease than other suits. Personally, as the BS3 is pretty annoying, I don't take elite suits at all, but instead I take two Shas'oes (or Shas'els w/ Targeting Array; same BS in the end) and give each Gun Drones to allocate wounds against. And sometimes I give one of the Shas'oes a Stim-Injector, so I can allocate AP4 and non-instagibbing AP3 stuff against the Shas'o (which I'd probably do anyway; 4 wounds is a lot!) and save the drones. This way, I have one suit with superb BS, lots of wounds and ablative Gun Drones to take care of those pesky instagibbing shots.


In objective based games, the Tau force will likely be asked to advance and take an objective from an opponent. This is, of course, precisely what Tau do not want to have to do. Tau armies everywhere need to shoot enemies off of objectives in cover, which is difficult.

Or, Tau can use Infiltrating Kroot to keep the enemy off or away from the objectives in the first place. Infiltrating Troops are not to be underestimated, which is why I will never tire of Kroot.

The trick to Objectives in missions with Tau is to keep the objectives as far away as possible from one another. This prevents the enemy from doubling up objectives with a super-stretched unit and will also mean that, in order to take the objective, the enemy will have to either isolate themselves, or deploy around the objective, in which case that'll be the only objective they take.

Most enemy commanders realize that Tau suck in fistfights, and so will likely deploy more liberally with the intent of taking the Tau objective, rather than safeguarding their own. This is a fatal mistake, as Tau are very good at objective denial, and outflanking Kroot can steal an objective right from under an enemy's nose if they're not careful.


The bad news for Tau can be summed up as follows:

The slower Tau force needs to get closer to the enemy and attack entrenched troops with Fire Warriors (or Kroot).

Which is why deployment with Tau is so critical.

Brother Loki
28-10-2008, 12:14
I'd also like to point out that Tau are one of the few armies that can deny cover saves at range - markerlight hits can remove those enemy tanks' cover saves, meaning your broadsides and hammerheads will almost certainly kill them. Same with shooting at troops in cover. Most armies need to get within flamer template range to do this sort of thing.

Sidstyler
28-10-2008, 12:46
For the love of God, SYPDER, don't poke the freaking bear.


actually there is. page 71, moving skimmrs. note that a skimmer must be set down on the table and left in place at the end of its move. it cannot be left hovering in mid air.

lmao

I know what you're talking about, and...no. You're wrong. This was shot down a while ago, what they mean is you can't physically hold the model in mid-air, you have to set it (the flying base) down on the table.

I mean really, think about it. What would the point of the flying base be then if the model itself has to sit flat on the ground? :rolleyes:

I really hope that was a joke, if it was then bravo, good show. If not...god damn.


However, Tau are special. They can remove their flying stand at will with their Landing Gears, allowing Tau skimmers to block LoS by choice. JSJ, anyone?

That landing gear is pretty cool, but hardly anyone uses it. Makes good cover when there is none...expensive cover, but nonetheless. :p

samiens
28-10-2008, 12:55
seriously, tau are pretty awesome- but the dull gunline that was never the best way to play them has been hurt. Otherwise, they have so much decent equipment and as 5th ed has lots of cover around its better to have a high number of high strength shots to kill things. Don't forget Tau are pretty good at pinning enemies and outflanking stealth suits with target locks are hilariously good, as are a huge number of kroot for skulking in woods/charging orks.

Crisis suits aren't the be all and end all any more and that's a bit much for most Tau players I know to handle. Incidentally, does anyone else find tau a right pain to paint- I've only seen 2 acceptably painted armies ever and only just found an ok way myself...

Sidstyler
28-10-2008, 13:17
I don't think my opinion matters since I've never been a good painter anyway...when it comes to single figures for D&D, sure, I can spend hours on a single mini and make it look pretty damn good (I'm particularly proud of my half-orc). But for an entire army? I've yet to find myself sitting down long enough to even finish a squad...and it doesn't help when I keep changing my mind about the paint scheme over and over.

I think I've finally settled for the desert T'au armor, but I want to try weathering since I don't like the real clean look so much.

Anyway, Tau models look freaking awesome when painted up right, I know that much.

itcamefromthedeep
01-11-2008, 17:14
Well it doesn't necessarily hurt us. It just doesn't help.An advantage that everyone can use but you is a loss for you. For example, if GW put out an errata saying "everyone but Tau gain +1 strength" the Tau would lose games more often, and be worse off. Do you see my point?


Tau can run just as much as anybody else. In fact, I do it quite often, but only because I don't actually own a second Devilfish. Besides, it's not like enemies can run and then assault (unless they fleet *shudder*), so they have to use at least some intelligence, or they'll get stuck out to dry right in rapid firing range.Faster enemy infantry are far more dangerous for Tau. You're not a fool. You have to see this.

Cover Saves
It also helps Kroot a lot. 3+ cover in woods is amazing for a model that cheap. Also, "improved" cover (TLoS) allows Markerlights to see through cover completely, and since Markerlights don't cause wounds, the enemy gets no cover save from the Markerlights themselves.I have never seen Kroot be effective. I have rarely even seen them fielded. That may very well change for the reasons you outline, but the die so very easily, particularly in close combat, that I have difficulty seeing them as a serious threat. Now, Markerlights do help the Tau deal with cover saves, but they had the same ability in 4th as well. Markerlights just have a bigger job in 5th.


Tau can use Infiltrating Kroot to keep the enemy off or away from the objectives in the first place. Infiltrating Troops are not to be underestimated, which is why I will never tire of Kroot.I know about infiltrating Troops, as I use Genestealers. I'm just not sure Kroot have the oomph it takes to steal objectives the way Genestealers do.


The trick to Objectives in missions with Tau is to keep the objectives as far away as possible from one another. This prevents the enemy from doubling up objectives with a super-stretched unit and will also mean that, in order to take the objective, the enemy will have to either isolate themselves, or deploy around the objective, in which case that'll be the only objective they take.

Most enemy commanders realize that Tau suck in fistfights, and so will likely deploy more liberally with the intent of taking the Tau objective, rather than safeguarding their own. This is a fatal mistake, as Tau are very good at objective denial, and outflanking Kroot can steal an objective right from under an enemy's nose if they're not careful.A Tactical squad is all it takes to keep an objective away from 10 Kroot who get the assault. even at 15 or 20 it gets iffy for the Kroot.

That "very good at objective denial" phrase has me confused. They aren't fast enough to tank shock at more then 12" like eldar do, they aren't resilient in assault (either in terms of toughness or leadership), and they tend to fade away from assault troops rather then hold ground. All of this suggests to me that they are quite bad at objective denial. Would you mind elaborating a bit?

Kroot are really the best way that I can see Tau threatening an enemy objective. You must see that without them it's daunting. In every objective game I've played against Tau, I've rammed my army down their throat and made the Tau play for a tie on his objective. Once again I haven't played against Kroot in a 5th ed objective game, but my 5th ed experience with them suggests they're still not exactly killing machines either with their guns or in close combat.

I want to think Tau took the 5th ed change well as an army, but I'm just not seeing it. Perhaps I just haven't them adapt enough.

Hicks
01-11-2008, 19:02
They lost JSJ really, or is it just that if you can see just a millimeter of a suit behind cover you can shoot it? My group has almost always played with stupidly big total LOS blocking terrain, but I reckon that actually losing the JSJ ability is quite a big nerf. If O'shova isn't untargetable in his retinue anymore too (not quite sure), I would agree that the Tau aren't just as good in 5th. I feel that they are a bit like nids, they can still win big, but their playstyle really changed with the new edition.

Shangrila
01-11-2008, 19:13
I play both IG and Tau, while my tau are of the Farsight enclave i still have the same if not more problems then normal tau. Even with 5th edition adding alot of hurt to both armies my battlesuit army is amazing effective against SM/CSM's.
I may only get one hammerhead but thats all i need to kill a landraider, and if he cant do it my 3 broadsides can. The only new SM unit that worrys my tau are vanguards with their heroic intervention... As for Kroot sucking, they can have a squad of like 32 if you add in kroot hounds... thats a preety big screen even if they only last 2 turns.
Any army without a new codex is probably hurt in one way or another by 5th ed. Devilfish give off kill points? if it worries you that much dont use them.

Adapt and overcome.

HsojVvad
01-11-2008, 19:16
What you mean Tau lost JSJ?

SonofUltramar
01-11-2008, 19:32
WHAT??? IG are weakened by 5th Edition :p. Good joke.

You are kidding right? While Tau have been hurt by a few things Codex IG is really starting to show its age and funnily enough those blast weapons aren't all powerful as the majority of them allow an armour save and are S3 or 4? Besides as said previously you know what to expect so spread out at the very least?


Your luck sounds a lot like mine. Sad thing is a lot of people insist that Tau are crazy overpowered and I just don't see it.

But then again, we're probably just incompetent/playing wrong. :p

Me too then, then again I do use an infantry stealth cadre:eek:


always hitting on rear armor in close combat hurt Tau, because they don't fight enemy tanks in close combat.

So didn't hurt you at all in attack and made you the same as everyone else, the odasity of Games Workshop, how dare they:wtf:

All said though I think I may dig out my Tau and give them a go in 5th, actually forgot I had them, lol

Thud
02-11-2008, 00:01
Played my first game of 5th edition today, with Tau, and I was a couple of millimetres away from winning. And that was my first game for almost two years (!).

Tau has certainly lost some of the abilities they possessed in 4th (vehicle mobility being the most obvious) but I wouldn't say they're bad in 5th. You'll just have to play differently from what you did in 4th, ie; FoF is no longer a no-brainer, and you'll need to be a bit more aggressive with movement and deployment. Also, Monats aren't as good as they were before kill points were introduced.

Personally I'll be remaking my army and going for a Farsight Enclave with lots of crisis suits and plenty of toys, few vehicles and I'll be running around a lot.

What's more, with the new cover rules, Markerlights are great!

march10k
02-11-2008, 09:21
One more negative to add: those KP missions do hurt Tau, mainly because of:

-Low Ld. units can and will run on you, needing a 5 point upgrade to get a second chance at life.

-Low model count. Units, other than Kroot, are fairly low model count with decent but not unbeatable armor saves.

-Gun Drones off of vehicles add an extra kp. You need to adapt accordingly.


Low LD....compared to who? 8 isn't half bad...and a 5 point upgrade per squad is hardly crippling...especially if you don't run around in 6 man squads.

Low model count...Uh...the only units with low model count that I can come up with are crisis suits, sniper drones, and broadsides. You realize that you can get 18 models into a stealth squad, don't you? Not that 6 stealth suits is what I'd consider low, anyway. Ten burst cannons would be a little over the top....

Gun drones...so upgrade and get some decent shooting out of your fish. I do that as a matter of course, so I don't see it as a 5th edition related "expense".



our ONLY heavy weapons platform can no longer realistically hide and makes JSJ kinda, well, odd.

The only competitive way to play Tau right now is maybe a gun-line with shadowsun backed up by hammerheads, or a completely mech-list. Hybrid lists are much harder to pull off because those fought a war of target priority and harassment, which is no longer applicable.

Tau are strong by virtue of ubiquitous S5 weapons, but that's it. All their interesting strategies and tricks are gone and makes the army as a whole far more boring to play with and against.


That's a bit dour. First, crisis suits are NOT the only heavy weapons. You have rail rifles, rail guns, ion cannons, missile pods, plasma rifles, seeker missiles. All on non-crisis suit platforms.

Second, your assessment of "the only way to successfully play tau" is needlessly negative. I haven't changed a thing about my list, which is very much hybrid. My two monat crisis suits might be a KP disadvantage, but they're a LOS advantage. My 3x12 FW with rifles (static) got a bonus in the consolidation changes, while the 3x6 with carbines (mobile) get to run. My stealth suits got nastier. My railhead got hurt slightly with the move/shoot rules, but got much harder to kill. My pathfinders get a 4+ cover save from the static FW, as do the sniper drones sharing the firebase with them. Hybrid works just fine in 5th.


TLoS also makes Crisis Suits much less survivable.

Overall, while Tau do get hurt by 5th in some ways, they also get some really cool benefits. They aren't quiet as good as they were before, but still don't have it anywhere near as bad as IG for instance.

TLOS makes crisis teams harder to JSJ with, but monats are just fine.

Did you say 5th nerfed IG? Pardon me while I roll around on the floor...

SonofUltramar
02-11-2008, 10:26
Did you say 5th nerfed IG? Pardon me while I roll around on the floor...

While I agree with your other points the last point I have to disagree with. IG are at a massive disadvantage in any KP game and at my local store I've seen a couple of Guard armies essetially lost the game by Turn 3 because they've had 5 or 6 units destroyed leaving them with an uphill battle just to gain parity let alone a victory? The other point is that with an infantry horde army they find it difficult to not allow the enemy a cover save due to either terrain or firing through your own units?

Ho hum, I think all armies have the ups and downs though and having played with most armies at one point I think IG are below Tau on the power totem pole but not by that much if the player knows what they are doing.

march10k
02-11-2008, 18:36
While I agree with your other points the last point I have to disagree with. IG are at a massive disadvantage in any KP game and at my local store I've seen a couple of Guard armies essetially lost the game by Turn 3 because they've had 5 or 6 units destroyed leaving them with an uphill battle just to gain parity let alone a victory? The other point is that with an infantry horde army they find it difficult to not allow the enemy a cover save due to either terrain or firing through your own units?


I'd say that the advantage is as overblown as the "JSJ is dead" argument. The only fix that IG need on KPs is that command squads need to be worth a single point. Two KP for five T3 5+ models is ridiculous.

That said, if you've given up 5-6 kill points by the third turn without harvesting any of your own, then IG ain't your cup of tea. If you've lost 5kp by turn 3, and your opponent has lost 3-4, the advantage is yours...he's only got a couple units left. Hard to harvest kill points if you don't have any models left. I fully understand the concept that if the enemy has 5kp, then taking 6 from you virtually guarantees a victory...but only having 5kp also means that you have a maximum of 5 units that can get after the business of harvesting those kill points. An army with few kill points can't afford to give them up, since it has a far greater impact on his ability to continue the fight than the loss of a unit in a 15kp army...and the inability to consolidate into a fresh assault more or less means that any time a KP is taken from the guard, the unit that did the killing dies to even the score. So any KP that the guard collect off of vehicles or before you crash into their lines...are the deciding factor.

Extreme example. 1000 point DW versus horde IG. Seventeen terminators versus 95 guardsmen (eight-nine las/plas squads and three naked command squads), or 11-12 kp to 5. I'd be shocked if the DW lived long enough to collect even two KP.

SonofUltramar
02-11-2008, 21:24
I didn't say that my Guard have ever been in that position, i've been playing Guard for 10 years and are very much so my cup of tea, lol.

As for your example, i'd like to see that game as I think it would be closer than you think;)

itcamefromthedeep
03-11-2008, 05:32
So didn't hurt you at all in attack and made you the same as everyone else, the odasity of Games Workshop, how dare they:wtf:What? You know I don't play Tau, right? I'm in this thread because my Tau opponents seem to have more difficulty winning.

How can I make sure my games with Tau are better.