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Deus Mechanicus
17-10-2008, 18:09
Ok im a 40K player, don't currently have a fantasy army and have only played fantasy say twice in my life or so (6th edition) and while skimming the forums here i get the impression that Daemons of Chaos is considered quite the power army in Fantasy. The thing is the same army in 40k isn't at all considered all that powerful.

So elaborate for me as a non-fantasy player what makes fantasy Daemons such a powerful army?

Malorian
17-10-2008, 18:14
I think the mods need to setup a macro that auto-locks any threads with the words 'deamons' plus 'powerful', 'cheese', and so on...

Just read the main threads on this silly subject.

Short answer: Go out, fight a deamon, tell me who wins...

Archaon
17-10-2008, 18:21
It comes down to being very good in all phases of the game.

Their combat characters and close combat troops (especially Khorne) are at the top of the food chain (you pay through the nose for them but they are worth it).

They all cause fear throughout the entire army.. not much of a thing against other fear causing units (undead especially) or units with high morale but even then you run the risk of failing that crucial charge which leaves you wide open to counterattack (or in the case of big deamon blocks an autorout if they outnumber you and you lose the combat).

Their magic is very strong.. potentially devastating if your magic defence is not up to par or nonexistent.

Their shooting, i.e. the Flames of Tzeentch are insanely powerful but severely undercosted (they can rip up entire units per turn with shooting, you can't charge them with normal troops as they'll stand and shoot you to death and even if you make it into combat they can dish it out well).

Additionally they have some really powerful gifts like the Siren Song which can put your main unit in a position to be annihilated and there's little if anything at all you can do about it.

What makes them really powerful is a good mixed build.. close combat troops for the nasty business, magic heavy characters and Flamers to shoot up a unit per turn.

All this together makes it very hard to deal with in a tournament environment where people tend to either focus on a single aspect of their army which may mean they get steamrolled by Demons in other phases or they spread out to cover all bases which makes them average in all phases with the result that Demons outclass them.

In private games with people designing their armies as counter-demon forces (it can be done by many armies) it is less of a problem but then those games tend to be boring. Either your build works well and you destroy the demons or it fizzles out and you are occupied to manage a draw at least.

Deus Mechanicus
17-10-2008, 18:26
I think the mods need to setup a macro that auto-locks any threads with the words 'deamons' plus 'powerful', 'cheese', and so on...

Just read the main threads on this silly subject.

Short answer: Go out, fight a deamon, tell me who wins...

[Dr Evil]Riiiiiiiight[/Dr Evil]

well my apologies i dont often patron these forums and whilst my question was related to the difference between the fantasy daemons and their 40k counterparts in regards to power level the thread was mostly an attempt to clarify something that most people seem to agree on for a non-fantasy player.

Lupinbell
17-10-2008, 18:40
I really need to stop replying to these:angel:


It comes down to being very good in all phases of the game.

Their combat characters and close combat troops (especially Khorne) are at the top of the food chain (you pay through the nose for them but they are worth it).
Very True


They all cause fear throughout the entire army.. not much of a thing against other fear causing units (undead especially) or units with high morale but even then you run the risk of failing that crucial charge which leaves you wide open to counterattack (or in the case of big deamon blocks an autorout if they outnumber you and you lose the combat).
As long you remember you cause fear...:o


Their magic is very strong.. potentially devastating if your magic defence is not up to par or nonexistent.
Only for Tzeentch heavy builds. A list without the big T will be lucky to get more than two level 2s under 2000 points


Their shooting, i.e. the Flames of Tzeentch are insanely powerful but severely undercosted (they can rip up entire units per turn with shooting, you can't charge them with normal troops as they'll stand and shoot you to death and even if you make it into combat they can dish it out well).
Dish it out with WS2:p Also my full unit of 6 lost to a unit of Corsairs. But yes, they are VERY VERY points effective


Additionally they have some really powerful gifts like the Siren Song which can put your main unit in a position to be annihilated and there's little if anything at all you can do about it.
True as well.

These and army wide 5+ ward save are the main complaints

loveless
17-10-2008, 18:40
The main problem with 40K Daemons is supposed to be a benefit: All Deep-striking, all the time. It makes it a bit too random to really be powerful, but it can definitely be fun. A normally-deployed Daemon army in 40K (which I've fought before in a freakish no DS EVER scenario), is a bit tougher of a cookie than a "by-the-book" 40K Daemon army.

In Fantasy, all the daemons are there at once, and ALL of them are a serious threat in their own special way. You have to pick and choose a bit more when it comes to dealing with Fantasy daemons than when it comes to 40K daemons - due to the Deepstrike thing.

40K Daemons have a bit of an uphill battle since you never know when they'll arrive.
Fantasy Daemons are all there, with (imo) better abilities than their 40K counterparts, presenting a far larger threat than in 40K.

theunwantedbeing
17-10-2008, 18:48
Deamons arent overpowered.
They're just difficult to beat as nobody seems willing to bother exploiting their weaknesses as they're all too hung up on the strengths that may or may not have been taken by the guy your actually playing.

"Oh no his magic is too powerful."
"he's not got any magic...it's a khorne army"
"but it would be if he'de taken a horror army"
"but he hasnt.......a horror army would suck in combat anyway"
"but he'de take loads of flesh hounds and not suck at combat then"
"the horrors still suck in combat, regardless of what else is taken in the list"

And it just gets sillier and sillier.
Long story short, there are different ways to beat daemons, some work vs some deamons but dont work at all vs others.

If your opponent is passing 5 out of 6, 5+ ward saves, a 5+ ward save is not too good, you need to make your opponent roll properly.

Lord Dan
17-10-2008, 18:57
I'd say Malorian has a point...

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165567

http://http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165905

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164081

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162544

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162127

Those are just the ones I could find since mid-september. I didn't even want to go back to around the time Daemons were actually released.

Ammanas
17-10-2008, 19:03
Every time I have fought a Daemon in a character bash or something it has gotten creamed.

Daemons from what I can tell are specialists - the close combat ones are made for combat, long range for long range etc. This means in that role you will always be beaten... however if you catch them outside of that role they are easy.

Urgat
17-10-2008, 19:08
Only for Tzeentch heavy builds. A list without the big T will be lucky to get more than two level 2s under 2000 points


I'm just going to point out that this is true for most armies, bare VC, no?

Ixquic
17-10-2008, 19:12
Deamons arent overpowered.
They're just difficult to beat as nobody seems willing to bother exploiting their weaknesses as they're all too hung up on the strengths that may or may not have been taken by the guy your actually playing.

"Oh no his magic is too powerful."
"he's not got any magic...it's a khorne army"
"but it would be if he'de taken a horror army"
"but he hasnt.......a horror army would suck in combat anyway"
"but he'de take loads of flesh hounds and not suck at combat then"
"the horrors still suck in combat, regardless of what else is taken in the list"

And it just gets sillier and sillier.
Long story short, there are different ways to beat daemons, some work vs some deamons but dont work at all vs others.

If your opponent is passing 5 out of 6, 5+ ward saves, a 5+ ward save is not too good, you need to make your opponent roll properly.

The only time demons won't have any magic is when they are running an entirely Khorne army. That's like saying you don't have to worry about Dark Elf magic since he could run a Cult of Khaine themed list and use the Hag Queen and 3 regular hags. You can't base that sort of argument around one themed list that if it does get used is still an army that will charge and decimate your line on the second turn.

Additionally saying Horrors "suck in combat" is totally untrue. They have average stats, cause fear, can be upgraded with a full command, unbreakable and have access to a 4+ ward save and a champion with Von Horstmann's Speculum. Yes it's expensive for the last two options but that choice is there and even without them they are still much more difficult to deal with than most core choices and even specials of other armies. Even if they did suck in combat that doesn't take away from their units that are excellent in combat so I'm not sure what that matters when they are sitting back contributing dispel and power dice while Khorne dogs and greater demons are ripping up the combat line.

Also no one with any sense complains about people passing 5 out of 6 ward saves. The problem is that no matter what demons are hit with: dragons, ward machines, tooled out heroes, the entire army is taking 2/3 of the wounds they should be. That sort of damage mitigation is much better than most armor saves.

But yeah there are already a ton of demon threads so really one of those could be bumped since this kind of stuff is already tread ground.


I'm just going to point out that this is true for most armies, bare VC, no?

Pretty much every demon army I see locally uses a level 4 greater demon, heralds with magical ability and at least two units of horrors.

Shamfrit
17-10-2008, 19:14
Too Good In Combat

On the charge only. The diminished strengths in the subsequent rounds of combat, not so least the lack of armour (yes, they get a 5+ ward permantly, but 33% of saving is not enough to sustain mass hits and every wound on a Daemon unit is consdirably bad for them.) Flesh Hounds are abysmal against ASF troops, can't take on RNF units to the front without support (unless they're rolling exceptional, and they're charge Humans or Skaven) and Bloodcrushers are 70 a piece, take up a rare slot, and are very slow, and then Bloodletters - I mean great, Str 5, WS5...T3...5+ ward...expensive as hell.

Even with a herald providing Locus or ASF there are units in other armies that outperform and undercost anything the best of Daemon Units can.

Insane Magic

Right. This is the most amusing claim against Daemons. Firstly, in a mono-Khorne army, there is no magic, and no shooting. In a Nurgle army, your Heralds are Lvl. 1...at the cost of 50 points! And your Greater Daemon at Lvl. 4 costs upwards of 600+ points. So magic is not points effective in any daemon list which does not include Tzeentch...

Horrors, 1pd, 1dd for 120 points. 18" range on the basic spell, unless you buy a huge unit of horrors, which loses it's casting capability in combat unless it's the lvl. 3 (300+ point) unit...great. Lord of Change, very good, but again, 600+, Heralds of Tzeentch, random spells from Lore fo Tzeentch which could result in an unusuable 200 Hero character. (Boon of Tzeentch and Flickering Fire is SO useful!!! Investing in Master of Sorcery is great, but then you're limiting power dice, and you can only then have 2-3 dispel scrolls...if you're going fully Tzeentch..in which case, you've no combat support.

6DD average...BROKEN! No...a 10 DD + 1 to all rolls Lizardmen army which still outshoots, moves and fights you...that's broken. Dwarves? Auto-broken of course, Skaven can manage 10-16 Power dice and 6 Dispel Dice, no moans there (much.)

An entirely Tzeentchian List can die, turn one, due to a miscast, due to the range of the spells and losing casting capability in combat. Just won't work. If you've turned up to a tournament with a lvl. 1 caddy and you whinge about an all magic army? It's as much your fault as your opponent's for losing.

CAUSES FEAR!

Ermmm. So do Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts, a large proportion of other armies and Forest Spirit lists of Asrai...what's your point? If you're outnumbering and autobreaking as a daemon player, you've just been charged by a Jaguar Charm Scar Veteran or your opponent is playing a 5 model chaos list. It might be for free, but this is the current army book trend - why shouldn't Daemons get an army wide set of rules, every one else is.

THE WARD SAVE!!!

This is such a competant argument throughout. I mean, who'd have thought that people would be complaining about a majority T3 army having an unbeatable, life saving ward save...wood elves might lose this against magic, but Daemons arn't wood elves. They're Daemons...DAEMONS.

Consistant In Every Phase

This is the complaint against Daemons that really, really narks me off. Firstly, there is only one...yes, one ranged unit, in the entire army list. They are incredibly easy to counter-balance.

It's an age, AGE old computer/rpg method that is so blatantly simple it hurts:

Combat > Magic (Flesh Hounds, Bloodletters are great at killing weaker troops, magic users, flyers, light cavalary.)

Magic > Combat/Range (Hitting targets you can't get to, slowing them down, weakening them, blowing up smaller units, knights and the like especially. Picking off archers at range.)

Ranged > Combat (Shoot bloodletters, strip ranks, easy to crack.)

There are a thousand ways to do this, and unless you've built a perfectly balanced Daemon list with a bit of every unit, you're going to be weak in one or more of these phases. If your opponent brings 12 flamers, magic them. If he brings no GD and big blocks, shoot and flank them. If your opponent brings lots of magic, kill his mages!

The cycle is endless, and theunwantedbeing (as much as we clash) is absolutely right. Daemons rely on fear and speed, if you see past that and think about what you're doing (and if you've brought a balanced list yourself) they are not the hardest list there is, or the hardest army.

I could go on about Black Guard for example.

W0lf
17-10-2008, 19:33
Bloodthirster
3x 10 horrors
2x 6 flamers
flesh hounds as points permit.

done. dont mess about and you wont beat me. draw? more then possibly.

And im not bigging myself up. I couldnt beat any of my gaming buddies who can actually play well using that list.

Lijacote
17-10-2008, 19:36
Yes, I misread. I AM SO SO SO SO SORRY FOR BEING A HUMAN. Flame me.

Lordsaradain
17-10-2008, 20:07
Yay! Another daemon bashing thread! Rant on...

Storak
17-10-2008, 20:28
That sort of damage mitigation exists only for Heralds of Tzeentch and units of Horrors with said Herald in it

2/3 * 2 = 4/6 = 4+ ward which is not 5+

Know the numbers. This sort of damage mitigation is good, but armour saves are good too. I wouldn't know which one is better, given that armour saves can be much "lower".

Of course, you can go on and call me biased and totally ignore everything I say. That's fine too.

call me biased, but your multiplication doesn t look good to me....

Mireadur
17-10-2008, 20:46
lol for real, what the hell were those numbers?

On the topic: nice post Archaon.

Lazarus15
18-10-2008, 04:47
Daemons are just like all the other recent books, just a little more forgiving. The idea is that the sum is greater than the parts of the whole. This goes for High Elves, Dark Elves, Vampires, Daemons, and the new Warriors of Chaos book. That is just the trend that GW is on, and I for one am a huge fan!

People daemon bash because they can't adapt to the new books, or don't have their armies set up properly. My tomb kings chariot army has done fine against daemons, and my friends lizardmen have repeatedly given my daemons a run for their money.

I am not sure about your "Insane Magic" part of your reply. I play a themed Tzeentch list and I can tell you that it is not overpowered, but it is certainly not underpowered. It is respectable. I can also tell you that one bad magic phase doesn't spell doom for a tzeentch army. Heralds aren't 200 points, they are 115. Boon of tzeentch and flickering fire work fine, as that way you don't take up power dice from the pool. You just have to work with what you get.

Shamfrit
18-10-2008, 08:04
Boon of Tzeentch and Flickering fire = one spell herald, unless you fancied casting Boon on 4 dice?

Latro
18-10-2008, 08:18
[B] The cycle is endless, and theunwantedbeing (as much as we clash) is absolutely right. Daemons rely on fear and speed, if you see past that and think about what you're doing (and if you've brought a balanced list yourself) they are not the hardest list there is, or the hardest army.

I could go on about Black Guard for example.

Ooooooh ... well, I'm glad you cleared that up for me. So Daemons suck. Now if you could only tell that to the tournament Daemon players so they would start losing more and everything will be back to normal again.


:angel:

(PS No, not to be taken too seriously and definately not meant as flame-bait.)

isidril93
18-10-2008, 08:31
That sort of damage mitigation exists only for Heralds of Tzeentch and units of Horrors with said Herald in it

2/3 * 2 = 4/6 = 4+ ward which is not 5+

Know the numbers. This sort of damage mitigation is good, but armour saves are good too. I wouldn't know which one is better, given that armour saves can be much "lower".

Of course, you can go on and call me biased and totally ignore everything I say. That's fine too.

erm...you do know that 2/3 X 2 does not equal 4/6
it equals 4/3 or 1 1/3.

Gorog Irongut
18-10-2008, 09:20
Bloodthirster
3x 10 horrors
2x 6 flamers
flesh hounds as points permit.

done. dont mess about and you wont beat me. draw? more then possibly.

And im not bigging myself up. I couldnt beat any of my gaming buddies who can actually play well using that list.

No offense W0lf but I'd like to play this list any day of the week. My dwarfs would and have trashed lists very similar.

There are things to ignore (horrors), there are things to shoot and stall (Thirster and flamers) and there are things to march block and send the infantry units after (Fleshhounds). Nothing in this list is overly powerful. But then, Nothing in the daemon list is overly powerful. It just requires adaptation.

Shamfrit
18-10-2008, 10:30
Tournament players want to win, that's the point of a tournament, is it not? If you wanted fun and frollics play in the 'core selections only but come dressed as a woman' Fun Time High Time Event.

The Composition Restrictions in Europe at the minute weaken Daemons enough of the cheese to make them competative yet less deadly. I think the UK should follow, altering and FAQ'ing the list till kingdom come is not the answer. Restricting the blatant power gaming lists with too many hounds, horrors and 13 power dice will reduce the Daemon threat.

And I never take things too seriously :skull:

Unless it's about Care Bears, Cheesecake or how the new Warriors of Chaos Nurgle lore is awesome.

Von Wibble
18-10-2008, 11:12
Shamfrit - What are these competition restrictions you mention?

The word for Daemons isn't overpowered, its abusable. Simple god restrictions would have prevented this, such as treating each unit of lesser daemons as a mainstay unit (like clanrats) for their god. So 1 unit of flesh hounds per bloodletters. 1 unit of flamers per horrors. And so on.

That or a return of Daemon animosity - all daemons within 6" of a unit or lone character not of their god have -1Ld per unit.

A daemon list taken by a reasonable player will provide a good, entertaining game. My last game against daemons saw me facing the plaguebearer plus herald of doom, nurglings, beasts, a bloodthirster, 3 units of bloodletters, bloodcrushers with herald, and flesh hounds. It ended in a draw and a very tight game throughout. Although this list contained 2 things considered brutal to face (plaguebearers and bloodthirster) it combined them with a fair selection of other units and stuck to a theme. It had no magic and 2 dd in defense. It had no shooting.

It is only when the player goes all out to make a horrible list that things change. Daemons aren't the problem, players out to maximise their list are.

Archaon
18-10-2008, 12:09
Exactly and this is the main problem. GW is either uncapable or unwilling to close the holes and some give in to temptation and produce crap lists that are only fun for them because they win comparatively easy.

From time to time i attend unrestricted tournaments and you can forget bringing in a nice list or even a themed list which has weakness (unless your theme is to maximise potential).

Just last weekend i attended a huge german tournament and out of the Top 10 7 Demon armies were placed with the tournament winner being a demon player (and the tournament had some restrictions concerning magic and other stuff).

However i can't shake the feeling GW knows about this but doesn't care or even does it intentionally. You see.. out of all the demon armies i guess about 2/3 were newly purchased because people saw their power potential and used it (and because the army ranks among the cheaper armies moneywise).
No one can convince me that GW designers are that incompetent to not spot the abusable parts or the effect some undercosted/overpowered units may have in games. If they are indeed that incompetent then it spells doom for GW that they are in the state they're in.

As i already said.. in an unrestricted tournament environment Demons as they are will rule the day.. always and this is proven when i see big tournament results nowadays. Even Vampire Counts weren't that successful and there's only a few new armies that can make it to the top 10 and i consider this either as lucky games where the dice were favorable throughout the tournament or that the player is really that good.
In private games i have beaten my friends Demons.. they were tight games and i must say that my friend severely underestimated the potential of my DE assassins (he won't make the same mistake twice :D:p) and he's not the type to maximise his armies in friendly games (we play hard but we understand not to cross certain lines).

logan054
18-10-2008, 12:21
of course GW knows about this, imbalanced means they can have a degree of control over sales, GW wants to sell greater daemons, sure they makes them ridiculously cheap, i wonder how many chaos players have bought greater daemons since the new book came out.

I would love to see the return of Daemon animosity, that was one of the great things about the older book, sadly i dont think that will ever happen, makes the army to complex, i think its meant to be a serious army for those who like winning, if you want a fun army then you have orcs.

W0lf
18-10-2008, 12:46
There are things to ignore (horrors), there are things to shoot and stall (Thirster and flamers) and there are things to march block and send the infantry units after (Fleshhounds). Nothing in this list is overly powerful. But then, Nothing in the daemon list is overly powerful. It just requires adaptation.

fraid i know how to play the game mate.

Itd all be on the back line out of LOS all game and the best ud get is a draw for kill some horrors.

Only a idiot can lose with that list. Its very easy to play for a draw. Why would i ever open my thirster up to dwarven artilary? And have fun shooting my flamers with boltthrower and cannons with possible stone throwers. Theyll only sit in terrain and shrug most of it off.

Lupinbell
18-10-2008, 12:47
I'm just going to point out that this is true for most armies, bare VC, no?

I think I meant to put Level 1.

EvC
18-10-2008, 13:25
Well either way it's a bit of a tautology. Tzeentch is where you go for the level 2s, so of course if you exclude them then it's hard to go magic heavy. You might as well be saying "any army without wizards will struggle to get more than two level 1s at 2K", which is true for every army except Daemons. All they need is a Greater Daemon (Non-Khorne) and one level 1 and they've already got more than what you say is a struggle to get.

Shamfrit
18-10-2008, 15:48
It's in Poland/Europe, the restrictions, if I find a link I'll post.

Frankly
18-10-2008, 16:37
Heralds are the only thing that makes me sit up and take notice of a core unit.

Other than that the usual B.thirster could be a problem.



Yeah, like I said before maybe I'm on the receiving end of the soft edge of the DoC bashing stick, since I really haven't come up against a list that comes me pee my parts and/or to many solid opponents playing DoC(which I think will change in the future). I just don't find DoC any harder to fight than another army types.

@W0lf, is your armylist meant to be an example of a hard or soft armylist? I don't get it.

Shamfrit
18-10-2008, 17:03
Having just seen the Warriors Of Chaos Book...

Daemons Suck.

logan054
18-10-2008, 18:33
You honestly think Warriors of chaos are better than daemons, i guess you must have seen a special version of the book.

Orcboy_Phil
18-10-2008, 19:04
I wouldn't go as for as saying Deamons suck compared to Warriors of Chaos. However its still a fairly solid list that will hopefully do well on the tournament scene. Sure the magic items aren't that good, same with gifts. And at first it seems slow, but with cheap (moneywise) access to knights and Horsemen, its going to be a lot fater than evetybody seems to suppose.

Shamfrit
18-10-2008, 19:43
All I know is Vilitch just became my character of the moment :D

logan054
18-10-2008, 20:05
special characters hardly make a book, i feel sorry for you if thats the way you gauge you armies, problem with him is that he is only T4 and has no wardsave.

Shamfrit
18-10-2008, 20:20
I don't want to go into a long and protracted debate about how good or not Warriors of Chaos are; I've played with the new list a few times, I like very much what I see; and have great hopes for the Skaven book when it's finally released.

I'm hoping I'll managed to pull off the Black Tongue/Puppet trick soon though.

Gorog Irongut
18-10-2008, 20:38
fraid i know how to play the game mate.

Itd all be on the back line out of LOS all game and the best ud get is a draw for kill some horrors.

Only a idiot can lose with that list. Its very easy to play for a draw. Why would i ever open my thirster up to dwarven artilary? And have fun shooting my flamers with boltthrower and cannons with possible stone throwers. Theyll only sit in terrain and shrug most of it off.

W0lf, I never said you didn't know how to play. I just don't see the strengths of that particular list. Why not atleast include some furies? Even if you sat at the back of the table and hid all game, how would that be any different from any other army? Anyone can hide.

And to be precise, I believe in offensive dwarfs. Eventually I'd get over there. While I was tramping my way over, my Anvil would be killing some of the more tedious units that were hiding.

The reality is that daemons appear powerful because they have so many bells and whistles. But all of those bells and all of those whistles are expensive. Odds are your opponent can only bring half to a quarter of the things you expect him to have. This leaves him with the ultimate weakness of an elite army. He will have no redundancy... No backup plans.

When that Bloodthirster dies horribly, there will be little he can do to recover. When his flesh hounds get cut down to 4 by shooting, they will be massively weakened and unable to do more than be a support unit. When you set him up by fleeing from a charge, he won't have a backup unit to pull his **** out of the fire when he gets flanked the next turn. When those screamers are grounded do to any of the anti-flying items/abilities he will be down a major, unmissable part of his army.

Sure they have great toys. Some of them are downright disgusting. The way they can mix or match them doesn't help. But without those boosts they fall flat on their face. There isn't a core unit that operates well without being pumped by a herald. How many points are spent on the general and three core units that will be fairly lackluster? How many points does he have left over to make an actual army and buy those bells and whistles that we all fear? Not many. This is by definition elite.

There have been many elite armys before daemons and I'm certain there will be many more. They all have certain strengths and certain weakness'. Perhaps the daemons are a little more well-rounded but it still doesn't change the fact that they're elite and suffer from many easily exploited weakness' for being elite.

Latro
18-10-2008, 21:11
Judging on these comments it's surprising those poor Daemons manage to win anything at all. It really makes me feel sorry for them ... always fighting such un uphill struggle.


:cool:

(PS @Shamfrit: I'll see your Dark Tongue + Infernal Puppet and raise you a double Hellcanon + Infernal Puppet ... simply because eventually I will roll that misfire result I so much desire :evilgrin:)

logan054
18-10-2008, 21:15
I don't want to go into a long and protracted debate about how good or not Warriors of Chaos are; I've played with the new list a few times, I like very much what I see; and have great hopes for the Skaven book when it's finally released.

I'm hoping I'll managed to pull off the Black Tongue/Puppet trick soon though.

neither did i hence why i made my answer rather short ;)

Mr_Rose
18-10-2008, 22:00
I don't want to go into a long and protracted debate about how good or not Warriors of Chaos are; I've played with the new list a few times, I like very much what I see; and have great hopes for the Skaven book when it's finally released.

I'm hoping I'll managed to pull off the Black Tongue/Puppet trick soon though.
I'm glad someone else saw that combo...I thought I was hallucinating there for a moment. I mean, obvious synergy between items and they aren't stupidly priced or anything? Rock on. Pity it only works once though....
On the other hand, Infernal Puppet/Pandaemonium works as many times as you're lucky with your spell rolls. :D

W0lf
18-10-2008, 22:02
The combos alright but tbh its kinda expensive.

I dont tailor lists and im not sure without a lvl 4 thats even really a good combo.

Shamfrit
18-10-2008, 22:56
Ermm, why do you need a Lvl 4?

Pandemonium is an 8 cost spell, hardly lucrative.

Mr_Rose
18-10-2008, 23:02
Ermm, why do you need a Lvl 4?

Pandemonium is an 8 cost spell, hardly lucrative.
You'd need a Lord-level sorcerer if you wanted to put both items on the same character and I guess no-one does level three any more or something.

Anyway, the trouble with the Pandaemonium version is that it relies on getting the spell (easier if you have more levels to roll for) and then subsequently casing it (easier of you have more dice and other spells to distract your opponent's dispel dice with). Aekhold's foul-mouthed tongue is far less random and so about fifty points more reliable.

Shamfrit
18-10-2008, 23:29
Level 2, cast with 3 dice, +1 to cast from Mark of Tzeentch - even if you don't achieve that, you can have the Tongue on one Sorcerer, and the Puppet on another?

But enough!

Let's start a Warrior thread :D

Mr_Rose
18-10-2008, 23:49
Level 2, cast with 3 dice, +1 to cast from Mark of Tzeentch - even if you don't achieve that, you can have the Tongue on one Sorcerer, and the Puppet on another?

But enough!

Let's start a Warrior thread :D
Why have the tongue on a sorcerer? it's not an arcane Item... and, yes, splitting them up is possible, but as I said, the statistics make a level 4 much more likely to actually have Pandaemonium than any given level 2. Even if it is a waste of effort for a remains in play spell.

I mean, for a lvl 4 sorcerer I would tend to prefer the Book of Secrets, the Infernal Puppet, the Golden Eye of Tzeench and The Bronze Armour of Zhrakk, plus maybe a Conjoined Homunculus and possibly a Third Eye of Tzeench. This combination is ridiculous whatever Lore you take, but works quite nicely with Tzeenchi magic.

Shamfrit
19-10-2008, 00:06
A true argument as any, you could fit the Tongue in on any lord character to be fair, and the Puppet on a support Lvl.2 - it works much better with a Lvl. 4 by all means - and let's not begin to consider Vilitch!

Storak
19-10-2008, 14:29
When talking about saves, yes, my "maths" are just fine, I just didn't want to make a bloody massive paragraph of text explaining what I meant, I assumed people were conscious enough to see things through my text

2 times 2 is 4, 3 times 2 is 6. You can't say daemons save 2/3 wounds since they only have a bloody 5+ save

A die has six sides.

no body spoke about them "saving" 2/3 wounds. the original claim (http://warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3018268&postcount=14) was about them TAKING only 2/3 wounds. and that is (of course) right.

ps: calculations are either right or wrong. yours was obviously false. it doesn t make sense to discuss this...

Mr_Rose
19-10-2008, 16:32
When talking about saves, yes, my "maths" are just fine, I just didn't want to make a bloody massive paragraph of text explaining what I meant, I assumed people were conscious enough to see things through my text

2 times 2 is 4, 3 times 2 is 6. You can't say daemons save 2/3 wounds since they only have a bloody 5+ save

A die has six sides.
But why are you multiplying the denominator by 2?

2*(2/3)≍(2/1)*(2/3)≍(2*2)/(1*3)=4/3

What you did was:

2*(2/3)⇝(2/2)*(2/3)≍(2*2)/(2*3)=4/6

Which is patently incorrect in the first step. By the way, 4/6 is equivalent to 2/3 - you actually multiplied by one rather than two.

Mr_Rose
19-10-2008, 19:58
Oh wow. Why are you bringing real maths into that? I DID put quote marks around the bloody word didn't I? I did say 4/6 is equivalant to 2/3. What the hell are you on about? And I didn't really give a damn about the slash separating these two. 2 times 2 is still 4 no matter how badly you give me the ugly.

If it was just taking 2/3 wounds, then nevermind everything I've said. Anyone else to quote something I've said and be anal about some detail? I am aware of the slight irony there.



Oh you (and the rest of you awesome people) can stay there thinking that I did some fancy calculation (no, I didn't, just some 2*2 and 3*2) and be high and mighty and not even consider I god damn bloody misread the damn thing. Which I have to check now*. Good job for reading everything literally.

*Yes, I misread. Now lynch me.
However, previously in the post everyone is actually mocking you for, you tried to claim that 4/6 was equal to a 4+ ward save, when the number you were actually looking for was 1/2. Or maybe 3/6 since you like sixths.

P.S. No-one has actually brought real numbers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_number#Definition) into it yet.

Lijacote
19-10-2008, 20:00
However, previously in the post everyone is actually mocking you for, you tried to claim that 4/6 was equal to a 4+ ward save, when the number you were actually looking for was 1/2. Or maybe 3/6 since you like sixths.

P.S. No-one has actually brought real numbers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_number#Definition) into it yet.

Now I see my mistake. I apologize for being such a terrible person. Please proceed to mock me more (and pick some random word, turn it into a noun and give me a Wiki link)

I could swear however that there's logic behind my numbers. They just don't match the the common one. I'll see that I find it so it will be my turn to laugh and post slander.

EDIT: I'll never find it. I forgot the mechanics behind saves. My leaky, leaky mind.

EDIT 2: YES! There is logic. It was about saving 4 out of 6 times, and you can not deny that. HA! But that doesn't apply either. I'll be right in my own delusional world. Or rather, within the context that I had misread.