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Setez
18-10-2008, 00:49
I was just looking through the upcoming titles on BL, and I noticed this:

http://blacklibrary.com/product.asp?prod=60100181094&type=Book

Does anyone know if this is a sequel to Descent of Angels, or if it's a completely new story? Judging by the title I would say we will at least get to know what really happend at Caliban and if it is the Lion or Luther who is the real traitor. I hope Astelan will make an appearance, that would be sweet :p

What do you think? And what are your expectations for this book?

grissom2006
18-10-2008, 09:52
i like you am hoping this is the sequal finally the title certainly suggests that it is only time will tell i guess.

The Judge
18-10-2008, 10:53
The rumour forum said it was a sequel to Descent, written by Mike Lee. I am very happy.

aad
18-10-2008, 10:55
my guess is that this is the sequel indeed.
descent of angels leaves a gap at the end that makes the grand canyon look like a crack in a cupcake.:D

i got pretty much figured it out and my suspicions about them came true..

the dark angels of today are real losers,tormentors and bully,s.
only clouded and shrouded in mystery and never trusthing each other.only care-ing for their own agenda,s, egocentric and arrogant pigs :D
but what can you do when your geneseed is from a primarch that is a superstitios weakling and a heretic.
if he was a true heretic at least he would have been something but no not even that. he,s not warm and he,s not cold he is halfwarm/halfcold only siding by the ones who wins.

ive finished reading angels of darknes yesterday and it got me all mad :p
and its just a book, but its a great book.

my own chapter is a third founding chapter from the dark angels.
my geneseed came from them, only survivors of that time are my coremaster librarian and my coremaster chaplain and of course my corechaptermaster and his retinue.
they do not hunt for the fallen, for they only know what truely happened.
they want nothing to do with the dark angels for what they now are.
aware of the current hunt on the fallen,but not interferring and too busy strengthening their forces after the giant blows the tyranids,chaos and tau brought to them.
(still shaping my chapter fluff:D)

abasio
18-10-2008, 12:31
I hope it is & it sure looks like it from the cover (HH style). My expectations from the book is nothing in terms of story as long as it focuses more on The Lion & Luther rather than fringe characters. Not that I thought that was a bad thing in the first book but if it continues like that I might be a wee bit disappointed.

Maidel
18-10-2008, 13:15
Most of the books 'focus' on the minor character. Sure, in the earlier books you see a fair bit from horus' perspective, but the 'heroes' the main characters were his loyal captains.

abasio
18-10-2008, 15:38
I don't really think, Loken, Tarvitz & Garro were fringe characters like Zahariel was. Maybe Zahariel will turn out to play a big part but so far he's seemed like looking at the Lion from afar with a young aspirant in the way.

Maidel
18-10-2008, 15:55
I don't really think, Loken, Tarvitz & Garro were fringe characters like Zahariel was. Maybe Zahariel will turn out to play a big part but so far he's seemed like looking at the Lion from afar with a young aspirant in the way.


Well, in the greater scheme of things, they WERE fringe characters.


What i mean by that, is that none of them were primarches and none of them directly affected the over riding story (unlike, say, that world bearers chaplain whoes name escapes me who corrupted horus).

I think we may well find that zahariel is a VERY important figure. (im putting money on it right now that he is cypher.)


EDIT - to make myself clear, those characters were very important to the story and did make it back to warn the imperium that the heresy was comming etc etc. But without them, the horus heresy would have still happened and the loyalists may well have still won. So although they played a very important part, they werent intrinsic to the whole 'HH' events. Also I think it is very unfair to judge zahariel from his part played in one book, compared to the 5 book storyline the other character had. Until the last book where they come back to terra, they also had bugger all impact on the story as a whole.

aad
18-10-2008, 23:42
indeed.

zahariel must be cypher.
zahariel is a ''normal dude'' but has a very strong body and a very strong mind and soul.
he killed a calibanite lion alone just like lion el johnson. nobody else did that, than those two.

lion,el was suspicious and soon became yealous at that ''normal'' human being
doing the same thing as he did, when it turned out that zahariel has psyker capabilities and would become a librarian(something the lion had no hand in, because the emperor himself ordered his chieflibrarian to make him that).
the lion became even more suspicious and feared that zahariel would found him out.

that must be exactly the reason why cypher has never been caught.
cypher must have great librarian capabilities(probably greater than any other librarian has).
zahariel knew about the bomb, he just saw it and he knew the plans just by looking at the terrorist.
(that would be handy if they hunted for you to know what is coming to you.)
zahariel is a librarian so he would know very much about the warp and the void. (also very handy if the come for you).

and what if someone would try to catch him:?? what if some chaplain would arrest him and he resisted after all he,s a powerfull spacemarine?? a librarian is then needed to make him paralyse so they could cuff him.
but you can,t psyke out another librarian who is much stronger than you.
zahariel/cypher would probably do the same in return.

they never get cypher. even if he walked right in front of them.

come to think of it, i feel more for the ''justified rightiouss fallen'' than for the so called dark angels. :D:p

Setez
19-10-2008, 00:29
indeed.zahariel must be cypher.
zahariel is a ''normal dude'' but has a very strong body and a very strong mind and soul.
he killed a calibanite lion alone just like lion el johnson. nobody else did that, than those two.

Well, to be fair, nobody else ever got the chance (except for Amadis) since there only were two lions. But Zahariel is indeed a powerful character and I hope we will see more of him in the upcoming book. :)

I also hope we will see more of the Watchers in the Dark. I wonder what role they might play in the upcoming events, especially if it turns out that the guys stationed on Caliban is the good guys.

abasio
19-10-2008, 13:21
Well, in the greater scheme of things, they WERE fringe characters.


What i mean by that, is that none of them were primarches and none of them directly affected the over riding story (unlike, say, that world bearers chaplain whoes name escapes me who corrupted horus).

I think we may well find that zahariel is a VERY important figure. (im putting money on it right now that he is cypher.)


EDIT - to make myself clear, those characters were very important to the story and did make it back to warn the imperium that the heresy was comming etc etc. But without them, the horus heresy would have still happened and the loyalists may well have still won. So although they played a very important part, they werent intrinsic to the whole 'HH' events. Also I think it is very unfair to judge zahariel from his part played in one book, compared to the 5 book storyline the other character had. Until the last book where they come back to terra, they also had bugger all impact on the story as a whole.

well if so then I'd like the next book to see that his importance to the story is a little more than just a random Marine. So far that is all he has been so it would be great to either see him develop in to a key character or for the next book to focus on whoever is.

The events of the HH would happen anyway no matter who you omit bar Horus himself. Take away the traitor primarches & replace them with the loyalist ones, daemons, xenos etc & it could still have gone ahead. Not in the way it did but it could still have gone ahead. Who is really important in the Human race when Chaos is destined to win in the end anyway?
:evilgrin:

reds8n
19-10-2008, 13:41
I was just looking through the upcoming titles on BL, and I noticed this:

http://blacklibrary.com/product.asp?prod=60100181094&type=Book

Does anyone know if this is a sequel to Descent of Angels, or if it's a completely new story? Judging by the title I would say we will at least get to know what really happend at Caliban and if it is the Lion or Luther who is the real traitor. I hope Astelan will make an appearance, that would be sweet :p

What do you think? And what are your expectations for this book?

It is a sequel :




Horus Heresy: Fallen Angels, by Mike Lee. Yes, he's better known for his work on Darkblade and Nagash, but Mike Lee is also a damn fine science fiction writer! You asked for a sequel to Descent of Angels, and here it is. Both on their homeworld and out on the Great Crusade, the Dark Angels are facing challenges. On Caliban, civil unrest flares into outright rebellion. Which cause is more important to the Calibanites and the Astartes - their own planet, or the Emperor? Out in space, Lion'el Jonson is tasked with bringing the Gehinnom star system under control. The forge worlds and hive worlds it comprises are vital to the Imperial war effort, in particular supplying and refitting Horus's own fleet. The military force necessary to bring this star system back into compliance tax even the Dark Angels' might - why is the primarch so determined to win, whatever the cost?

Setez
19-10-2008, 16:18
The forge worlds and hive worlds it comprises are vital to the Imperial war effort, in particular supplying and refitting Horus's own fleet. The military force necessary to bring this star system back into compliance tax even the Dark Angels' might - why is the primarch so determined to win, whatever the cost?

Sounds like somebody is doing Horus dirty work :D

Maidel
19-10-2008, 16:22
Sounds like somebody is doing Horus dirty work :D

I am waiting with bated breath for the PROOF that all those nasty dark angel players are horrible traitors.

OR at least, that they are so tainted that they should all be shot.

Setez
19-10-2008, 17:01
You might find that proof as soon as this book is released :p

But no matter how this story turns out, I will be thrilled to read it.

different13
19-10-2008, 17:27
I'm torn on this - on the one hand, I'm very fond of Lee's Darkblade books.
On the other, I haven't read any of his sci-fi work, so I've no idea how that's going to play out.

We already know he can write some groovy (though somewhat drawn-out) fight seqences, and several of his Darkblade books display plot elements that are somewhat more convoluted (and political in nature) than many other BL books, something that should feature heavily in a Dark Angels book. (please note I'm not saying he writes such things better than other authors, simply that he DOES write them)

It would perhaps have been good to see Scanlion finish the story he started, I'm never really fond of various authors covering one story. In this case I'll make an exception, as
A) I wasn't that impressed by his writing in DoA (it wasn't bad, I just didn't care for it)
B) I like Mike Lee.

This book essentially makes or breaks Descent of Angels, which desperately needs a sequel (as it simply doesn't stand on its own very well).

Phoebus
19-10-2008, 22:34
The poor Dark Angels always get such a bad rap... :D

Personally, I think that if you look at things with a detached perspective their actions make a chilling sort of sense. The Heresy saw fully have the Astartes legions fall to Chaos; some of the greatest heroes of humanity succumbed to evil and were subsequently branded as the worst kind of traitors. Of course, not all of the Marines in those legions foreswore his oaths (see Istvaan III, for example), but it seems that the Dark Angels were the only loyal legion to be divided that way.

Things get worse. After the Emperor is put unto the Golden Throne and the remaining Primarchs disappear or go into their personal exiles, the powers that come to rule the Imperium become increasingly tyrannical, paranoid and ruthless. What likely started as a quest by the Dark Angels to keep their shame hidden evolved into a mission for survival. Their Codex makes it clear that one of their greatest fears is for a Fallen scattered through time and space to start blabbing about the rebellion at Caliban. Can you imagine what today's Imperium would do the Dark Angels if they found all this out?

Personally, I think the problem with the Dark Angels is that they are described poorly as well. Case in point? The overwhelming majority of the Dark Angels know virtually nothing about Luther's mutiny, the Fallen, etc. In fact, the newest Codex states that only members of the Inner Circle even know why the Dark Angels and their Successor Chapters are called the Unforgiven. Everything that they learn about their history prior to the end of the Heresy is steeped in myth and allegory. Nonetheless, Dark Angels are described as being secretive, mysterious and suspicious of outsiders--even though more than 99% of them don't have a plausible reason to be that way.

It is, in my humble opinion, poor idea-crafting by the otherwise good folks at the Games Workshop. If I had this horrible secret to keep... and wanted no one to know about it... the last think I would do would be to indoctrinate my group's membership to act precisely in the sort of secretive, paranoid way that advertises you have a secret and then adopt a nickname that screams "I DID SOMETHING BAD!"

I mean, seriously. You don't have to be a genius or a grand inquisitor to figure out that the Dark Angels have something going on. "Well, let's see, they call themselves 'the Unforgiven' and they teach nothing to their Aspirants, Neophytes or even trained battle brothers about their past prior to days following the end of the Heresy. Also, we have no idea where their Primarch is. Gee, I wonder what they would be trying to hide during a time when half our Space Marines went Chaos".

At least it's not just the Dark Angels, though. I mean, look at the Blood Angels and their Successors: thousands of Astartes who are slowly going murderously insane, and/or turning into vampires or cannibals. What is their brilliant masquerade? Coming up with Chapter names like "Blood Drinkers", or "Flesh Tearers". Using that logic, Huron Blackheart should have renamed his Astral Claws to "Future Chaos Pirates" at least a century prior to the Badab War, so as to give the Imperium fair warning.

One final thing. I personally like Cypher. I think he adds a nice flavor to the game. On the other hand, little that has been written so far about the Fallen makes them seem sympathetic in my eyes. Astellan, by his own admission, was a quasi-genocidal tyrant. His compatriots, those who rejected Chaos, are described as mercenaries, pirates, etc. They are hardly heroic figures deserving our sympathy. Cypher might redeem them, and some might already be on that road... But the available information doesn't make them seem so great.

Maidel
19-10-2008, 22:41
The poor Dark Angels always get such a bad rap... :D

The overwhelming majority of the Dark Angels know virtually nothing about Luther's mutiny, the Fallen, etc.

I think you missed the even more vital point that GW have yet to clear up (but may do so in the new book)

Which side went to chaos?

Was it luther or the lion?

Drakon
19-10-2008, 23:05
TBH i dont think youll even find out which side went to chaos in the book.

Why would GW ruin one of the biggest questions in the game. Plus i like the not knowing as i can torment my bro when I play his DA especially now that im doing a DA Fallen :D

Phoebus
19-10-2008, 23:08
Maidel,

To me, that's largely irrelevant. The important fact is that the Dark Angels following the Heresy have been loyal.

To answer your question, there is virtually no evidence that couldn't be misconstrued as propaganda for either side. The fact of the matter is that Luther was found alone by Dark Angels who went down to the site of his duel with the Lion after it was completed. That is, there were no surviving eyewitnesses to their duel. Even more importantly, no Dark Angel outside of the Inner Circle knows that this duel was fought to begin with.

Having said that, the members of the Inner Circle, who have no reason to lie to one another (in fact, they don't so much lie to their other brethren so much as they withhold information) claim that Luther kept repeating that the Lion would return to forgive him for his (Luther's) sins. If this is true, then that's fairly damning evidence against Luther.

Bottom line, Lion's character flaws aside, the most damning evidence against him are the insinuations Astellan delivers in "Angels of Darkness". Astellan claimed Lion was traveling slowly to Terra to see out who would win, but what a lot of people forget is that Jonson and the Dark Angels were travelling with the Space Wolves. Was Russ a traitor too?

Drakon,

I don't know... So far, the Horus Heresy novels haven't been holding back on revealing old twists, putting forth new concepts, etc. ;)

Maidel
19-10-2008, 23:21
Maidel,

To me, that's largely irrelevant. The important fact is that the Dark Angels following the Heresy have been loyal.


I mostly agree with everything that you said, but im not entirely sure that statement is 100% true.

There are numerous reports that the dark angels do 'their own thing' when they feel like it. They run away from battles to chase after a single 'fallen'.

To me, its either a total and utter over reaction to the chance that a fallen might tell, but to me, its more likely that its that the fallen were the GOOD guys and the dark angels are covering that up.


Does that make the current chapter loyal? Who knows. Maybe they are and they are trying to cover for the failings of the lion, maybe they are tidying up old loose ends (fallen) and waiting for the time when the lion returns to lead them. Who knows.

As for the stuff about travelling slowly and with the space wolves. Dont know, its older fluff so its going to be re-written with the later HH books, so i reserve judgment.

Drakon
19-10-2008, 23:30
that fact that they were travelling together doesnt mean anything really. Lion could have been slowing down russ's boyz and then have a plan to turn on them.

Phoebus
19-10-2008, 23:39
Maidel,

The travel from the Shield Worlds to Terra undertaken by Jonson and Russ is detailed in the Dark Angels codex currently advertised in the Games Workshop website. As such, though it might be old, it is certainly not outdated.

Where the Dark Angels covering up after the Fallen because they may have been the good guys... that is flatly refuted even in Fallen-friendly works such as "Angels of Darkness". If what you say were the case, then Boreas (and, in fact, every Interrogator-Chaplain) would have been engaging in a very odd bout of self-delusion. Quite clearly, the Dark Angels, right or wrong, believe that the Fallen were bad.

Now, whether they are justified or not in ignoring their duty to chase after the Fallen is another matter altogether. Personally, I feel this is a failure of the Chapter... and further evidence of the poor writing the Dark Angels suffer from. I mean, consider this: if only the Inner Circle know of the Fallen, then technically only the Deathwing, the Ravenwing, Company commanders and a very few either individuals can actually hunt the Fallen. Again, "Angels of Darkness" illustrates exactly how highly unusual it was for standard Marines to be involved in such a hunt. What that means is that the idea that entire forces of Dark Angels would drop their campaigns to hunt after a Fallen is just plain bunk. Unless said force is the Deathwing or the Ravenwing, then the whole concept is just an ill-conceived idea aimed at artificially reinforcing the concept of the "mysterious, secretive" Dark Angels.

A much more logical concept would have been for adhoc hunting parties composed of members of the Inner Circle (who, don't forget, also include certain veterans from the other Companies of the Chapter) led by an officer or Chaplain from their Company. But no, that would make a little too much sense now, wouldn't it? ;)

Drakon,

Russ and Jonson's legendary rivalry started over a petty argument centered on Jonson taking a fortress Russ wanted to take to satisfy his personal honor. Given this context, do you really think that Russ would just hang out and let Jonson slow him down while knowing that Terra itself was under attack?

Maidel
19-10-2008, 23:47
The travel from the Shield Worlds to Terra undertaken by Jonson and Russ is detailed in the Dark Angels codex currently advertised in the Games Workshop website. As such, though it might be old, it is certainly not outdated.

That will teach me to not read things ive bought!


Where the Dark Angels covering up after the Fallen because they may have been the good guys... that is flatly refuted even in Fallen-friendly works such as "Angels of Darkness". If what you say were the case, then Boreas (and, in fact, every Interrogator-Chaplain) would have been engaging in a very odd bout of self-delusion. Quite clearly, the Dark Angels, right or wrong, believe that the Fallen were bad.

Not at all. Infact, you even made my point for me. They BELIEVE the fallen were bad. I dont disagree, but belief and fact are two very different things. Horus didnt believe he was wrong. Truth is written by the victor.


A much more logical concept would have been for adhoc hunting parties composed of members of the Inner Circle (who, don't forget, also include certain veterans from the other Companies of the Chapter) led by an officer or Chaplain from their Company. But no, that would make a little too much sense now, wouldn't it? ;)

hehe - dont apply logic to the imperium.

It give serious migranes :D


Russ and Jonson's legendary rivalry started over a petty argument centered on Jonson taking a fortress Russ wanted to take to satisfy his personal honor. Given this context, do you really think that Russ would just hang out and let Jonson slow him down while knowing that Terra itself was under attack?

Depends on who had the map... :angel:

Phoebus
19-10-2008, 23:56
Maidel,

Please re-read my post. Your earlier post suggested that the Dark Angels might have been trying to cover up the fact the Fallen were "good guys." I clearly stated that the Dark Angels believed the Fallen were bad, plain and simple, and offered evidence in support. I'm not sure how that makes your point. ;)

At any rate, I do not claim to know what category all the Fallen fall under. Personally, I believe the available background, fluff and novelizations make it abundantly clear that at least some of them fell to Chaos (e.g., Cadmus from the Space Wolf omnibus) and at least some of them sought to make new lives of their own (e.g., Astellan from "Angels of Darkness" and mercenaries, pirates and leaders of small communities mentioned in virtually every Dark Angels Codex).

Regarding maps and such... Come on, that's a reach. :D

Maidel
20-10-2008, 00:01
At no point did I claim to know what category all the Fallen fall under. Personally, I believe the available background, fluff and novelizations make it abundantly clear that at least some of them fell to Chaos

No, fair point, you didnt. However all Loyal chapters have had members fall to chaos (Accept the grey knights) so chaotic members are not proof that all were.


However, I do realise that my side of the arguement is most likely to be the wrong side, but until GW state categorically who did what and when, ill support my ideas.

Although it doesnt look like it will be too long to wait, cos that book is comming out soon, and if it doesnt state it, then im going to be force to burn down GW HQ in frustration.


Regarding maps and such... Come on, that's a reach. :D

Not at all. I mean, come on, do you honestly think that Russ can READ? :D

GAh - dont edit after ive started replying, it confuses me.


Please re-read my post. Your earlier post suggested that the Dark Angels might have been trying to cover up the fact the Fallen were "good guys." I clearly stated that the Dark Angels believed the Fallen were bad, plain and simple, and offered evidence in support. I'm not sure how that makes your point.

Hmm - i see where you are comming from, however it doesnt completely negate what i mean.

Assume BOTH think they are right, from their own perspective the other is wrong. Now assume that luther was not corrupt, but the lion was.

Now the chapter is covering up that the fallen were loyal, but they thought they werent. The lion isnt around to refute this anymore, so his corruption could have 'died' with him.

Now luthers rantings that the lion is comming to forgive him could be that at the last moment the lion converted him to chaos and thus he could still want forgiveness for betraying his primarch, although he was stil loyal to the imperium.


Now im sure none of that made sense, but its late and i know what im on about so thats all that matter, right? :D

Phoebus
20-10-2008, 00:20
Maidel,

By all means, I'm not trying to claim that I know the "right answers" to this stuff. Everyone is entitled to their opinions where fiction is concerned. :)

It's certainly likely--in fact, it's almost certain--that the worst crime many Fallen committed was just being duped. Regarding Luther, though, it kind of falls apart when you consider that he specifically is looking to the Lion for forgiveness. This cannot be reconciled if Jonson is the one who corrupted him to begin with.

Believe me, though, I'm not dismissing this idea out of hand! I too thought that, given the absence of any eyewitnesses to their duel, it could very well be Lion who was the bad guy and Luther the one who was going to take the fall. I don't think this is plausible, though, for reasons I've already listed.

Lion's problem is that he's just not a likeable guy. The more BL writes him up that way, though, the more I am convinced he is loyal. This is compounded by the fact that "Descent of Angels" took pains to make Luther look sympathetic--along the same lines that authors of earlier novels worked hard to make Horus look sympathetic as well.

Alessander
20-10-2008, 00:33
I don't have my HH artbooks with me at the moment, but isn't that Astelan on the new cover with the odd helmet? Like he appeared in the 3rd HH artbook?

PotatoLegs
20-10-2008, 01:11
As an aside, who illustrates the covers for these books? The guy rules and I'd like to use his stuff as reference material for my own illustration

Grindgodgrind
20-10-2008, 02:29
Wouldn't it be entertaining if it turns out that the Dark Angels are the Loyalist Traitors, and the Alpha Legion are the Traitor Loyalists?

MajorWesJanson
20-10-2008, 08:17
I mean, consider this: if only the Inner Circle know of the Fallen, then technically only the Deathwing, the Ravenwing, Company commanders and a very few either individuals can actually hunt the Fallen. Again, "Angels of Darkness" illustrates exactly how highly unusual it was for standard Marines to be involved in such a hunt. What that means is that the idea that entire forces of Dark Angels would drop their campaigns to hunt after a Fallen is just plain bunk. Unless said force is the Deathwing or the Ravenwing, then the whole concept is just an ill-conceived idea aimed at artificially reinforcing the concept of the "mysterious, secretive" Dark Angels.

It seems very rare for line troops to be aware of the hunt. But in some of the short stories that come to mind from the anthologies, the line troops of the Dark Angels are told to assist in the capture of some heretic leader, and turn him over to the interregator chaplain, No questions asked. Of course, in the story it doesn't go to plan, but the point stands. For a hunt of the Fallen, how much to the line troops really need to know? A task force comes across the rumors of a Fallen somewhere. Task Force commander knows about the Fallen hunt, but that is it. So he says "important heretic, go get him." The whole task force has then changed missions, and only one or two people know the true reasons.

Trekari
20-10-2008, 08:37
As a new 40k owner, is there a proper place to start for the history of the DA? I love reading, so a good lineup of books would be awesome information to have.

LexxBomb
20-10-2008, 09:41
If those are ment to be Dark Angels on the cover why are they grey and not BLACK as they should be.

if you can convince someone on the net or ebay to loan/sell you a copy of Angels of Death army book 2nd Ed that would be your best shot.

Maidel
20-10-2008, 18:47
Lion's problem is that he's just not a likeable guy. The more BL writes him up that way, though, the more I am convinced he is loyal. This is compounded by the fact that "Descent of Angels" took pains to make Luther look sympathetic--along the same lines that authors of earlier novels worked hard to make Horus look sympathetic as well.

That is far and away the best thing you have said so far. It might have a great deal to do with the fact that i really dont like the lion and thus, want him to be the bad guy. IF so, its a great bit of writing.



Wouldn't it be entertaining if it turns out that the Dark Angels are the Loyalist Traitors, and the Alpha Legion are the Traitor Loyalists?

IT would absolutely make my year.

MadDoc
21-10-2008, 01:00
When it turns out that Luther is the bad guy I'm going to dance a little jig, because all of the DA haters will have to eat crow... :evilgrin:

Although they'll likely just turn around and say, "Its Black Library so it doesn't really count... *grumble* *grumble*". Inspite of having tried to throw AoD at Dark Angels players as proof the DAs are the bad guys (inspite of the fact that what they cite in AoD as proof, is, by its very context thrown into question)... :rolleyes:

:p

aad
21-10-2008, 12:35
little spoiler warning
read: angels of darkness.

than you will see what the dark angels have become.
even the chaplain had more than enough from all the secrets,mysteries and other lies.
he also archived the words in his last hour of life: walk along the cell in the lowest part of the rock and say: YOU WHERE RIGHT.(he,s referring to astelan)

-the lion is an evil primarch, jealous,supersticious,backstabbing etc etc.
totally and utterly not capable for his work, he waited for the outcome of the heresy and THEN choose a side.
-luther may be wrong for standing up against his boss,
-but astelan opened fire first when the lion came in caliban,s orbit.
that,s why astelan was also taken into eternal captivity just like luther.
to repend their sins forever, and not to be releaved by death.
-zahariel is likely to be cypher, always right and good in his life, incredible strong of mind, resilient to evil, and capable to do practically anything.

Phoebus
21-10-2008, 21:32
aad,

Regarding the Lion, I don't see where there is evidence for any of the traits you ascribed to him. The closest I see as being valid is "backstabbing", and then only in the sense that one might say that he sucker-punched Russ in one of their fights.

We certainly have not determined that he is evil; he doesn't demonstrate jealousy that I can recall, and I'm not sure that there are any instances of him being superstitious, either. The Lion does have some negative traits; one might assert that he is not trusting of others, that he is too aloof and withdrawn, and perhaps even that he is paranoid of those he cannot trust--reference his decision to leave his Terran Legionnaires on Caliban.

El Jonson did not wait for the Heresy to end before choosing aside; Astelan is merely guessing there. If anything, the fluff specifically states that both the Lion AND Russ of the Space Wolves were journeying to Terra together to face Horus.

When it comes to this fluff, you really need to read between the lines and understand when the source is telling you what the people of 40k THINK happened and how LIKELY it is that it happened this way. Case in point? We really know next to nothing about Luther's activities after Astelan opened fire on the Lion's fleet. The fluff states that Luther succumbed to Chaos and wielded their powers against the Lion, but it also says that when the Lion's men arrived at the scene of the battle, only LUTHER was there--meaning, no other survivors. Luther would only mumble that the Lion would return to forgive his sins, and nothing else. So who exactly described this duel?

About the only plausible thing from this account would be the psychic cry of pain Luther let out when he realized what he had done--the Librarians would have been able to sense that. But the actual duel? El Jonson's moment of doubt? The way it ended? I fail to see how all those descriptions are anything more than creative extrapolation to fill in the gaps.

Where Cypher is concerned, his stats have never included psyker powers (that I know of). Zahariel, though, was a librarian. I would be very surprised if the two are connected.

Maidel
21-10-2008, 21:41
aad,
Where Cypher is concerned, his stats have never included psyker powers (that I know of). Zahariel, though, was a librarian. I would be very surprised if the two are connected.

They rule the first rules for cypher what, 10 years before DoA? Maybe 15.

A little retcon here would not be unexpected.

GabrielEvander
21-10-2008, 21:53
i don't know if this has already been covered but chaos would have corrupted the Lion when he was younger and weaker and the emperor, being such an accoplished Psyhker, would have noticed this corruption so by that fact it would have been very unlikely that The Lion would have been corrupted.

also the Lion wasn't superstisious or backstabbing the only bit that comes near backstabbing his K.Oing Russ but that was satisfing his houner since Russ was the backstabber there and yes he was jealous because he was routed from his rightful place as Warmaster :D

Maidel
21-10-2008, 21:59
i don't know if this has already been covered but chaos would have corrupted the Lion when he was younger and weaker and the emperor, being such an accoplished Psyhker, would have noticed this corruption so by that fact it would have been very unlikely that The Lion would have been corrupted.

How does that work?

Surely by the same token the emperor would have been able to see that Horus was going to be corrupted before he made him warmaster.

GabrielEvander
21-10-2008, 22:28
no he would have seen that The Lion was corrupted i.e not pure of soul

while Horus was corrupted he wasn't when the Emperor was near him

i'm just saying that the Lion, having battled chaos since he landed on Caliban would be unlikely to be corrupted when he had battled it for years and had grown strong against it

Maidel
21-10-2008, 22:39
no he would have seen that The Lion was corrupted i.e not pure of soul

while Horus was corrupted he wasn't when the Emperor was near him

i'm just saying that the Lion, having battled chaos since he landed on Caliban would be unlikely to be corrupted when he had battled it for years and had grown strong against it

I still dont get it - whats to have stopped him being corrupted later on like horus was?

Most of the earlier fluff had it implied that the primarches were all 'tainted' while in the warp before they landed on their 'home' planets. And it was this taint that caused some of them to turn.

GabrielEvander
21-10-2008, 22:45
i'm just putting the idea forward that he would have been very resistaint to his taint since he landed on a planet near enough covered by taint lasting years by him self then battling the rest against this taint while no other Primarch to my knowladge had any contact with Chaos before they met the Emperor apart from Magnus who the Emperor was always wary of

Maidel
21-10-2008, 22:53
i'm just putting the idea forward that he would have been very resistaint to his taint since he landed on a planet near enough covered by taint lasting years by him self then battling the rest against this taint while no other Primarch to my knowladge had any contact with Chaos before they met the Emperor apart from Magnus who the Emperor was always wary of

Im pretty sure that mortarion was found on a world infected by chaos.

MadDoc
22-10-2008, 03:36
Lorgar's homeworld of Colchis was almost certainly tainted as well (afterall the native religion was laced with Chaos worship). But that doesn't really make alot of difference either way, as from what we know the Lion wasn't corrupted, but Luther was, its pretty clear (Luther talks about the Lion returning to forgive him... he needs forgiveness why if he wasn't the traitor?). And to all of those prattling on about the Lion holding him and Russ up on their way to Terra, you clearly aren't familiar with the actual story, it was Russ who insisted on stopping at every planet on the way, Jonson wanted to go straight to Terra.

DantesInferno
22-10-2008, 04:34
And to all of those prattling on about the Lion holding him and Russ up on their way to Terra, you clearly aren't familiar with the actual story, it was Russ who insisted on stopping at every planet on the way, Jonson wanted to go straight to Terra.

I wouldn't be surprised if they re-wrote that particular aspect of the Heresy when the time comes. Even back in 2nd ed, it never made a great deal of sense. It conflicted with the basic elements of Russ' and Jonson's characters, and completely reversed the Dulan incident with no explanation.

Think about it: the headstrong, impetuous and impatient Russ wants to frequently stop at planets along their route while their 'father' is besieged by their traitor brothers, while the pragmatic, calculating and taciturn Jonson wanted to hurry back with all speed? Never really rang true for me.

MadDoc
22-10-2008, 09:09
I wouldn't be surprised if they re-wrote that particular aspect of the Heresy when the time comes. Even back in 2nd ed, it never made a great deal of sense. It conflicted with the basic elements of Russ' and Jonson's characters, and completely reversed the Dulan incident with no explanation.

Think about it: the headstrong, impetuous and impatient Russ wants to frequently stop at planets along their route while their 'father' is besieged by their traitor brothers, while the pragmatic, calculating and taciturn Jonson wanted to hurry back with all speed? Never really rang true for me.

Yes but you're forgetting something, one of the main reasons given for Russ wanting to stop was so that he could punish those who'd turned from the Emperor(Imperial Truth) and betrayed the Imperium (Russ was furious and wanted to cut a few Blood Eagles into any Traitor he could get his hands on, even if they were just rogue Governor's and Generals), Jonson knew that their father needed them and that they would be of more use heading straight for Terra, hence his insistance that they should make haste, Russ wouldn't be swayed though. It makes perfect sense, and shows their characters quite well, you just need to bare in mind the nuances of the story.

DantesInferno
22-10-2008, 13:26
Yes but you're forgetting something, one of the main reasons given for Russ wanting to stop was so that he could punish those who'd turned from the Emperor(Imperial Truth) and betrayed the Imperium (Russ was furious and wanted to cut a few Blood Eagles into any Traitor he could get his hands on, even if they were just rogue Governor's and Generals), Jonson knew that their father needed them and that they would be of more use heading straight for Terra, hence his insistance that they should make haste, Russ wouldn't be swayed though. It makes perfect sense, and shows their characters quite well, you just need to bare in mind the nuances of the story.

The plausibility of Jonson being so absolutely keen to rush to Terra obviously hinges upon just how pragmatic and calculating you take Jonson to be: back in 2nd edition, it was entirely appropriate that he would be in a hurry to get back to Terra. Given the much darker turn that the Dark Angels and their Primarch have taken (largely in Black Library novels, but also in their behaviour in subsequent Codices), it's much more likely that a contemporary revision of the 2nd ed story would have Jonson less likely to be charging headlong into the possible deathtrap of a Traitor-held Sol system.

However, the main problem with that particular story has always been Russ' behaviour. There's absolutely no way that the headstrong, impetuous Russ would have wanted to delay at all in the dash back to Terra to save their 'father'. And certainly not merely to slake his bloodlust by killing some minor traitor Governors. If I remember correctly, Russ' justification for stopping along their way back to Terra was not at all because he wanted somebody to fight, but because he reasoned it would be necessary to prevent future fighting to recapture more worlds (I don't have the sources on me at the moment to check). That sounds a lot more like Jonson's reasoning to me...

aad
22-10-2008, 19:18
aad,

Regarding the Lion, I don't see where there is evidence for any of the traits you ascribed to him. The closest I see as being valid is "backstabbing", and then only in the sense that one might say that he sucker-punched Russ in one of their fights.

We certainly have not determined that he is evil; he doesn't demonstrate jealousy that I can recall, and I'm not sure that there are any instances of him being superstitious, either. The Lion does have some negative traits; one might assert that he is not trusting of others, that he is too aloof and withdrawn, and perhaps even that he is paranoid of those he cannot trust--reference his decision to leave his Terran Legionnaires on Caliban.

El Jonson did not wait for the Heresy to end before choosing aside; Astelan is merely guessing there. If anything, the fluff specifically states that both the Lion AND Russ of the Space Wolves were journeying to Terra together to face Horus.

When it comes to this fluff, you really need to read between the lines and understand when the source is telling you what the people of 40k THINK happened and how LIKELY it is that it happened this way. Case in point? We really know next to nothing about Luther's activities after Astelan opened fire on the Lion's fleet. The fluff states that Luther succumbed to Chaos and wielded their powers against the Lion, but it also says that when the Lion's men arrived at the scene of the battle, only LUTHER was there--meaning, no other survivors. Luther would only mumble that the Lion would return to forgive his sins, and nothing else. So who exactly described this duel?

About the only plausible thing from this account would be the psychic cry of pain Luther let out when he realized what he had done--the Librarians would have been able to sense that. But the actual duel? El Jonson's moment of doubt? The way it ended? I fail to see how all those descriptions are anything more than creative extrapolation to fill in the gaps.

Where Cypher is concerned, his stats have never included psyker powers (that I know of). Zahariel, though, was a librarian. I would be very surprised if the two are connected.

astelan told a story about that his entire chapter where send to a sector where there was a very small uprising, when they where their they saw another fleet coming in close, he almost give the order to annihilate that fleet. till he found out that it was another entire dark angels chapter.
neither astelan nor the other chaptermaster knew why?? to control astelan
and that astelan controlled his fellow chaptermaster, as the lion didn,t trust them both
SUPERSTICIOUS!!!

the lion suddenly wanted to go fighting along astelans chapter
the dark angels are made (like any other legion) to protect humanity right??
well astelan told a story about the lion,
the lion would rather save the life of 100 marines than 500.000 people in the city they had to protect. how about backstabbing against humanity.???
astelan didn,t gave the order to fall back and 100 marines died but the city survived. the lion was so mad that he sended astelans chapter to caliban.
maybe astelan was insubordinate but the lion was betraying the human race and his own father the emperor.
BACKSTABBING!!!

he sended zahariel and the chieflibrarian(was that before the emperor came to caliban)home together with all the rest of the chapter,fully unnecessary as they where succesfull in battle.
-zahariel killed a calibanite lion just like the lion himself(nobody else dared),
-zahariel saved the emperor from a terrorist attack(yeah a mere boy instead of the superior primarch)
-zahariel was to be made librarian by order of the emperor himself(without the ok from the lion)
-zahariel saved the lion from another attack with a nuclear bomb device(on another planet).
after the last fight a lot of marines where killed but they where succesfull, difference was that starting librarian zahariel and his chieflibrarian killed the monster and not the lion himself who was ducking.
the lion was not trusting him anymore, (you don,t have to read that in the lines you can read them clearly between the lines.)
the chapter zahariel fought in did nothing wrong,and they where send home anyway..
JEALOUS !!!

its not new for a primarch to be jealous, fulgrim was that also.(even far before he became a deamon).

Phoebus
22-10-2008, 21:51
aad,

I think you're using the wrong words. "Superstitious" denotes someone showing ignorance of the natural law, demonstrating faith or belief in chance, magic or the supernatural, instead. Astelan offers conjecture and supposition based on what he observed. I personally don't doubt that the Lion was suspicious by nature. Growing up on your own in a death world environment isn't conducive to a normal mindset. That doesn't make him evil, though.

Your second example is, IMHO, even more flawed. Astelan tries to justify the fact that he wiped out hundreds of millions of the population of the planet he controlled. His reasoning was that, as an agent of the Emperor, he was entitled to such decisions. Are you seriously going to ignore this and support his completely hypocritical example of the Lion doing the same thing, but at a fraction of the cost? ;)

Time will tell why the Lion sent back Sar Zahariel, Luther, and company back to Caliban. As of right now, nothing has been concretely revealed. If we're going to dabble with guessing, though, I find it very odd that you don't even bother considering that the Lion discovered that Luther attempted to assassinate him and that Zahariel knew this but failed to mention it. There's a number of ways this could have happened; someone could have witnessed their talk, or a security system could have recorded it. If this was the case, clearly El'Jonson would no longer be able to trust them. In fact, for an individual with the Lion, who was so alienated from humanity to begin with, such a betrayal would be incredibly deveastating--Luther was like a brother to him. If he couldn't trust him, how could he trust anyone? In that context, sending Luther and those Marines he didn't trust home makes sense in an odd way.

Again, I don't try to pretend that the Lion didn't have negative character flaws. Russ was violent and beligerent to the point of compromising his judgement. Magnus and Lorgar refused to obey orders. Angron was a psychopathic killer. Horus suffered from hubris. Perturabo allowed jealousy to rule him on a much greater level. Konrad Kurze and Corax had a whole gamut of issues between the two of them. The list goes on; clearly the majority of the Primarchs were deeply flawed beings.

On the other hand, Astelan by his own admission murdered people on a massive, global scale, instigated the war between the Dark Angels and the destruction of Caliban on a hunch, and was at the very least subjected to direct contact with the raw forces of Chaos when he was hurled through time and space.

I seriously doubt his words can be taken at face value.

DantesInferno,

Where the old fluff is concerned, El'Jonson is also the same man who had no problem engaging in impromptu duels and brawls or in quick assaults that he knew might lead to said fights with fellow Primarchs.

Where the new fluff is concerned, it concerns the Chapter after El'Jonson died. Being suspicious of people doesn't make on incapable of being a dynamic leader. The most recent published fluff on Lion El'Jonson, courtesy of "Descent of Angels", shows a battlefield commander who is not afraid to take a dynamic approach to things.

Obviously, things could be completely reversed when the next Dark Angels/Horus Heresy novel is released. Having said that, it's going to take a *very* creative approach to explain how Luther is awaiting forgiveness from the Lion while turning the latter into a villain.

Maidel
22-10-2008, 21:58
Obviously, things could be completely reversed when the next Dark Angels/Horus Heresy novel is released. Having said that, it's going to take a *very* creative approach to explain how Luther is awaiting forgiveness from the Lion while turning the latter into a villain.

Because if he 'betrayed' his primarch by staying loyal to the emperor he could still want his primarches forgiveness.

Phoebus
22-10-2008, 22:02
Eeeeh... Sorry, but I still think that's a reach. Agree to disagree, I suppose.

Maidel
22-10-2008, 22:03
Eeeeh... Sorry, but I still think that's a reach. Agree to disagree, I suppose.

yup.





......

Ephorx
23-10-2008, 04:30
This is all well and good theorizing, but can someone explain how Luthor could even stand 10 seconds against a Primarch in the duel itself? Chaos infused would be the answer. Also as someone above stated, the Lion had trained himself in his early years, to listen to his instincts, and sniff out Chaos, even if it wasn't fully manifested. The Lion knew(from instinct, not paranoia) that Luthor would do some sort of betrayal, but to the extent of it was unknown.

aad
23-10-2008, 21:30
if zahariel would hold something back about any terrorist attack then why did the emperor say that he (the investigator librarian)was telling the truth(that he said that zahariel was telling the truth)?? .
in other words the emperor told them that zahariel was telling the truth,
and that he wanted him for the librarian role.

you can not have an answer to that question. or you must say that the emperor was not capable enough.

my further believes are:
-luther was rather weak in mind,not in body he got altered too but not by a marine degree, and could indeed be chaos possesed.
-the lion is what he is in my book. got also possesed by some degree and weak for not recognizing it.
-astelan could have been a hypocrite but what happened before the heresy what the thing he was talking about , that wipe out a city instead of 100 marines was BEFORE the heresy. and BEFORE astelan did bad things with shooting lion out of orbit and killing almost a planet of people.
-zahariel is the most brave of them all (my idea about it that is):)

Dominus_Serui
23-10-2008, 22:34
Why does the whole thing require either of them to be corrupted - even if you decide to take the whole 'Johnson wanted to sit out the Heresy and side with the winner thing, and Luther and (what became) the Fallen were those that opposed him' as a pack of lies - it needn't be that it was the manipulations of Chaos, we've never really seen any evidence to show us that Fallen are truely worshipers of Chaos or at least, those alligned with Cypher...

Marines are ultimatley fallible, and while stories might become exaggerated over time, its quite possible that the Dark Angels engadged in a chapter war, with neither side beeing used by chaos - just plain and simple disagreement at hear causing a schism within the Chapter - just by default the Johnson faction came out ontop of it and, as we all know, history is always written by the victors, so the Fallen became more than just Marines with opposing views, but true heretics devoted to this new Chaos thing...a handy little tool one could throw around post heresy to get those Dark Angels that might not have had part in either side of the war to keep firmly behind the Lion to keep the chapters remains united.

Phoebus
23-10-2008, 22:58
Dominus_Serui,

Good words. The only thing keeping me from dismissing the entire account of the duel as a myth is the reference to Luther's "psychic cry of pain" after he realizes what he's done. That is the one instance from their fight that can be regarded as both tangible and recordable--from a Librarian's perspective.

aad,

Astelan specifically defends his actions on that planet on the basis that he possessed that sort of mandate before the destruction of Caliban. He repeatedly points to the fact that, as an agent of the Emperor, he used to have that kind of power--and he questioned Boreas' right to deny him the authority to wield it once more.

Even if this wasn't the case, Astelan's timeline from the attack on Lion's fleet and on does not allow for a plausible change in mindset or justifying his actions when he ruled his planet. Astelan went from Caliban being destroyed to the "modern" era and went from a "frontier" planet to a pirate colony and finally to the planet where he committed his crimes in a rather short time. It's not like he had spent so much time wondering about, exposing himself to this new, crueller Imperium to get "corrupted" and act as he did.

Dominus_Serui
24-10-2008, 00:26
Not necissarily true, a psyker can claim allot of things, and a non-psyker cannot...in general refute such things because they can't quite percieve things as anyone warp-touched can. Not to mention the foundation of Dark Angels fluff is conspiracy...so...the Librarians could kinda be 'in' on it, to protect the chapter and those who don't could have then swiftly been introduced to the Spanish Inquisiton newley-formed Interrogator-Chaplains and their fine comfy chairs collection of nasty bladed things.

As for Astelan, one has to take the words of a man under torture with a little pinch of salt, given, but theres nothing to stop him embelishing his character in a light that defends his actions to people who are...in essence...judging him...even if he doesn't realise quite that he's ultimatley screwed.

aad
26-10-2008, 15:59
@phoebus:and indeed you have no answer for the question why the emperor told everyone that zahariel spoke the truth.:D(just kiddin):p

astelan was kinda bad boy, but not more or less than the other dark angels, fallen or not fallen.

another theory: (i wanna have the new hh book NOW :D )
every dark angel has fallen, and the only difference is that half of them are trying to cover it up by exterminating the other half.

LexxBomb
27-10-2008, 12:27
Why does the whole thing require either of them to be corrupted - even if you decide to take the whole 'Johnson wanted to sit out the Heresy and side with the winner thing, and Luther and (what became) the Fallen were those that opposed him' as a pack of lies - it needn't be that it was the manipulations of Chaos, we've never really seen any evidence to show us that Fallen are truely worshipers of Chaos or at least, those alligned with Cypher...
.

well we dont know exactly what side Cypher stands on.
1. his actions benefit the Imperium
2. He is on first name terms with Abaddon and has planned strategic missions for him and carried said missions out (such as being the 'Voice of the Emperor')
3. We do know for fact that some of the Fallen worship chaos and this has strongly been documented: Into the Maelstorm has a Fallen DA Chaplain worship Tzeench, The shorst Story Black Peal deals with the DA's reclaiming the Luthor Sword (a now deamonicly possessed sword given to Luthor by Johnson) the same story also has a fallen Dreadnaught that is deamonicly possessed (called the Angel of Blades).

Emperor's Grace
27-10-2008, 19:17
My personal take on the DA/Fallen:




Personally, I kind of like the idea that they were all loyal but their paranoia got to them. The loyalists on planet thinking the returning DA were corrupted, the loyalists in the fleet thinking that the planetbound had turned. Might explain the secrecy and guilt. It's a hell of a thing to realize that you initiated a full out civil war over an error or a single rebel's las-bolts. Maybe they're secretly trying to get the truth they wish because they can't handle the real truth that they're faced with?

What if Luther was the ONLY heretic? He could have fired the defenses (or ordered the firing with a cover story). The fallen would then be loyalists following their commander when they got "attacked" by the fleet (which wouldn't attack them unless the fleet had turned, right?)

Think of it as two really paranoid deaf people with pistols in a dark room. A bullet of unknown origin grazes the arm of one. Does he "return" fire at the other person? Or try to ask the other guy what happened (possibly exposing himself to a killshot)? What happens when the fellow who doesn't even know the other guy got grazed starts seeing him running in and shooting?


I think his behavior in "Descent of Angels" (hangar bay scene) would be indicative as well.

Still doesn't preclude him being the only traitor and essentially getting the good guys to follow him with pretty oratory.

<snip>

We can’t use the fact that the fallen were taken into the warp after the Battle of Caliban as proof of heresy. The Primarchs were taken (at “birth”) long before any of them turned and only a portion that were whisked away did turn.

<snip>

I was advancing a theory that both the DA and the Fallen were loyalists, tricked into civil war by a heretic (Luther). This was possible due to a lack of communication with the outside world (hence the deafness in the analogy). The fallen only heard what Luther told them and Luther was undeniably turned.

<snip>

I'm saying that it's possible they suffered a terrible misunderstanding and that they have yet to forgive themselves for it. So for the DA to "prove" that they were right in their actions (and therefore not guilty of the terrible mistake of fratricide on the innocent), they seek to collect and torture the fallen into admitting that they were Chaos.

Now they are trapped in the idea that they "must" prove the Fallen guilty or the torture itself is a further sin.

(and, to stregthen the DA's false belief, some may have actually turned to Chaos in their exile or break and falsely confess under torture)



IIRC, the central theme in HPD is revenge, not redemption.

That, in my scenario, would make Cypher a planetbound loyalist that is seeking vengeance upon the guilty loyalists of the fleet for the sin of fratricide. Perhaps by it's revelation to the one that could truly set their punishment?

I'm also fond of my DoA arguments on pg 4 of:

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2851260