PDA

View Full Version : Wood elf nerfs in 2008 GT and some other GT:



teos40k
18-10-2008, 10:31
A friend of mine is quite upset how wood elves were forbidden to bring an extra wood piece for the tournament. Does anybody now why GW made such decision to deny them of that special rule?

The related link to the GT rule is listed below:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?community=true&catId=&categoryId=300005&pIndex=4&aId=3400027&start=5

Lord Malorne
18-10-2008, 10:35
Because they would have to bring there own wood in most cases and the organisers found this a pain with the existing terrain.

teos40k
18-10-2008, 10:37
lol.. ok...
Seriously... Is THAT really the reason?

Lord Malorne
18-10-2008, 10:42
Its what I heard on a podcast, plus the bitches whine at GT's about the woods...the real bad thing is the 'fake' ward save tree spirits get...thats the bad thing IMO.

Von Wibble
18-10-2008, 10:56
So why can't the organisers just have more woods in the first place? If they know how many wood elf armies are going to turn up they give each wood elf player a wood marked as their free wood, to be returned at the end. Its not like finding a few model trees is so difficult compared to the other intricacies of organising a tournement.

Duke Georgal
18-10-2008, 11:40
Because they would have to bring there own wood in most cases and the organisers found this a pain with the existing terrain.

I heard somthing very similar.

I remember thinking how stupid that is. The cost of the extra wood is supposed to be included in the Wood Elves army points costs. Maybe every model should cost 1 point less because without the "free" wood they effectively reduced the size of your army.

If a WE player ends up on a mountain table with no woods, that could seriously cripple their battle plans.

If every table had 3-4 woods on it then it probably would not matter.

Orcboy_Phil
18-10-2008, 11:50
It gets even worse for the poor woodelves. As far as I can remember you can't move terrain.

EvC
18-10-2008, 13:19
It's because these are scenario games, and Wood Elves do not get their free wood in scenarios. Simple as that.

Any army can be crippled without terrain, Wood Elves don't become a bad army because they have no wood- though a couple of their magic items need one to work. But then every army has magic items that are situational.

Seth the Dark
18-10-2008, 13:26
I suffer from that rule too in local tournaments because the organizers have it in their heads to follow GT and not allow the extra woods.

Thommy H
18-10-2008, 15:15
. Maybe every model should cost 1 point less because without the "free" wood they effectively reduced the size of your army.

The free wood is not worth one point per model. And if by some miracle it was that huge an advantage, how would you ever work that out? If they took a Dragon, they'd have less models, so it wouldn't cost so much...a Forest Spirit army is smaller than one that's full of Glade Guard...etc. etc.

The free wood is a tiny, tiny, tiny advantage that I don't even think is taken into account in the army's points value. The only reason it exists is because Wood Elves need forests to make some of their spells and magic items work and unscrupulous opponents might exploit that by only playing games with no woods on the table. In my games (against my fiancée's Wood Elves) I almost always have two small woods on the table anyway, and we don't bother with the free wood.

theunwantedbeing
18-10-2008, 15:26
If you know beforehand....whats the problem?

The no free wood thing is the same as a points limit.
You get told to bring 2250points to the game if you bring 5k then your army is illegal and you'll have to alter things accordingly.

Seems to be a lot of complaining about nothing really.

W0lf
18-10-2008, 20:59
Because the free wood is an army special rule?

I tell you what at my tourny High elves dont get ASF, Dark elves hate no one, Dwarves get normal base dispel dice, Skaven forgot about stength in numbers and lizardmen find their blood suddenly getting very warm. Fair? I mean you'd be silly to argue that you should have your special rules.

Thommy H
18-10-2008, 21:16
That's such a ridiculous comparison. It even says in the Army Book that they only get it in a normal battle, so it's obviously not vital enough to the army to apply all the time.

theunwantedbeing
18-10-2008, 21:43
Because the free wood is an army special rule?

I tell you what at my tourny High elves dont get ASF, Dark elves hate no one, Dwarves get normal base dispel dice, Skaven forgot about stength in numbers and lizardmen find their blood suddenly getting very warm. Fair? I mean you'd be silly to argue that you should have your special rules.

See, pointless complaining for no reason, blowing it all out of proportion.

In say...an Orion centred army, yes, no free wood is problematic and a notable nerf.
Although that's about the only disadvantage I can see for not getting your free wood.

W0lf
18-10-2008, 22:00
Its got nothing to do with the disadvantage at all. Hell i fidn the free wood more of an effort then its worth when im playing my woodies.

The principle is what makes me angry; also i fail to see the diffrence, those above are all army special rules.

EvC
18-10-2008, 23:05
You fail to see the difference because you either didn't read my post, or chose to ignore it for the reasons outlined by TUB. Because the usual army special rules across all armies apply in all games. Wood Elves still get the rule about moving through woods for free. However, the condition of the free wood explicitly is that it is not for scenarios. At the UKGT every game is a scenario. One of the three involves placing objectives- anyone who thinks Wood Elves should be allowed their free wood in a game about capturing objectives is an idiot, end of story.

A regular tournament using pitched battles disallowing the free wood is somewhat unfair, but then only on the same level as a tournament that disallows special characters (Poor Daemons and Dwarfs, not allowed to use their broken characters).

Mr_Rose
18-10-2008, 23:22
Its got nothing to do with the disadvantage at all. Hell i fidn the free wood more of an effort then its worth when im playing my woodies.

The principle is what makes me angry; also i fail to see the diffrence, those above are all army special rules.

The principle being that the tournament organisers followed the wording of the special rule exactly and disallowed the free wood in non-pitched-battle games?
That principle?
You're right, it's atrocious what they get away with in tournaments...:rolleyes:

ZeroTwentythree
18-10-2008, 23:29
You fail to see the difference because you either didn't read my post, or chose to ignore it for the reasons outlined by TUB. Because the usual army special rules across all armies apply in all games. Wood Elves still get the rule about moving through woods for free. However, the condition of the free wood explicitly is that it is not for scenarios. At the UKGT every game is a scenario. One of the three involves placing objectives- anyone who thinks Wood Elves should be allowed their free wood in a game about capturing objectives is an idiot, end of story.


Or in other words, wood elves are still allowed their free wood in pitched battles, as per the rulebook. The GT organizers are just generous in stating that they will not be using any pitched battles as scenarios. ;)

Thommy H
18-10-2008, 23:34
The principle is what makes me angry

I can't believe anyone would seriously be "angry" about this.

Orcboy_Phil
18-10-2008, 23:40
The principle is what makes me angry; also i fail to see the diffrence, those above are all army special rules.

What the principal that the tournament organisers don't want to have the hassle of resetting their specifically desinged terrain deployments becuase one army book out of 13 has a special terrain rule.

Gazak Blacktoof
18-10-2008, 23:50
What happens when somebody uses tree singing? The terrain is going to get moved then.

++++++

I'm not going to take sides here, its up to the TOs to do what they want as far as I can see.

Thommy H
18-10-2008, 23:56
It's a dumb rule anyway, while we're talking about it. I know that Wood Elves need trees to use some of their stuff properly, but who doesn't use forests? I always liked Mike Walker's description of how the rule must work - a troupe of less fierce Treemen who specialise in synchronised planting walking behind the army, ready to get that 'free wood' on the battlefield in time.

"They only fight near their woodland homes" is such a weak justification.

xragg
19-10-2008, 00:42
Add to the "forest spirit" rule that units with this rule also count as a source of woods (and 2" around the unit) for such things as spells and magic items. Wood elf magic would instantly become very strong and I could brush the dust off all my spellweavers, lol.

Anyway, GTs use pitched battles, not scenarios. The ukGT may be different though, so I cant speak for it. You most certainly can move terrain at a GT, though I was much more happy using the damage version of treesinging as my opponents kept deploying units in the woods.

Famder
19-10-2008, 02:58
I was much more happy using the damage version of treesinging as my opponents kept deploying units in the woods.
Someone at a GT was really that stupid? I have my difficulties with WE, but I at least know how to avoid this.

SolarHammer
19-10-2008, 07:36
UKGTs use scenarios. Scenarios are not pitched battles.

TheMav80
19-10-2008, 08:53
I think my Lizardmen should get free water terrain.

Cuz as it stands now, I never get to use the fact that they are Aquatic.

W0lf
19-10-2008, 09:52
just re-read the rule in my book.

My mistake in ascenraios they dont get it. thou lots of tournys that use pitched battles dissalow the free wood 'cause GT do'.

Oh and angry was an over-exageration. I dont even use wood elves for tournys. I just think its silly.

Nicha11
19-10-2008, 10:46
If it is a pitched battle the WE should get their free wood,
end of story, its in their army book so they get it.

And to be honest the justification for it is flimsy but i've
heard worst (ASF for High Elves).

Cognitave
22-10-2008, 04:27
I would say that both sides have some valid arguments.
However, I think that removing this rule is like getting rid of High Elve's Valour of Ages. It doesn't break the army per-say, but impacts it in the situation. I mean, if they allow crazy game changing special characters in tournaments (not pointing out any lists), in terms of using the most of the book, wouldn't all the smallest situational advantages be available to that army?

But, I guess it's comparable to the Beasts of Chaos being utterly beaten with the hate stick from GW right now. One would imagine, if the book has to be changed drastically, something of considerable value should be put back. The way I figure it, the top general should be the one who can make the most of every little thing in his/her book, not the ones with a simply better set of rules.

((not to contradict myself, but even with the extra wood, do WE stand a chance against Daemons/VC?))

SolarHammer
22-10-2008, 04:32
The UK GT does NOT use Pitched Battles.

The Wood Elves only get their wood in Pitched Battles.

The Wood elves do NOT get their wood at the UKGT.

OldMaster
22-10-2008, 08:06
The UK GT does NOT use Pitched Battles.

The Wood Elves only get their wood in Pitched Battles.

The Wood elves do NOT get their wood at the UKGT.

All right, all right. At least that is a good explanation. And perfectly fair.
Somethign else would be unfair, though.

Vilicate
22-10-2008, 08:18
Just so you guys know, you're definitely allowed to move the terrain around on the GT tables. Not that there's more than two woods on any tables, and some of the desert tables don't have one at all...which sucks.

In fact, you're supposed to set it up according to the rules in the front of the BRB.

EvC
22-10-2008, 11:43
You talking about the UKGT? Last year, at least, terrain was set up by the organisers.

Finnigan2004
22-10-2008, 15:27
I think my Lizardmen should get free water terrain.

Cuz as it stands now, I never get to use the fact that they are Aquatic.

Since you brought it up, has any lizardmen player here ever gotten to use the aquatic rule in a tournament? I had a water feature once, and it was a fordable river. Then the gw organizers decided that it would have too much of an effect on the game and decided that it was all fordable, so it did not count as water. On the other hand, I've never been on a tournament table that I can remember did not include trees. It does not seem a huge problem to me.

swordbob
22-10-2008, 16:14
Because the free wood is an army special rule?

I tell you what at my tourny High elves dont get ASF, Dark elves hate no one, Dwarves get normal base dispel dice, Skaven forgot about stength in numbers and lizardmen find their blood suddenly getting very warm. Fair? I mean you'd be silly to argue that you should have your special rules.


I wish they'd make O&G lose Animosity!

narrativium
22-10-2008, 17:03
I don't suppose anyone here's actually read the House Rules document?

http://warhammerworld.typepad.com/warhammer_world_news/files/microsoft_word_house_rules_whtsgt_v1.3.pdf

Question 88: Wood Elves are allowed their free wood.

(Also, I've just looked through the pack twice and can't find the rule which prevents the Wood Elf player taking a free wood in the first place.)

SolarHammer
22-10-2008, 17:29
Haha.

So they're breaking the rules by allowing Wood Elves a free wood, and people are still complaining.

That's awesome.

EvC
22-10-2008, 17:38
People will probably be complaining that their wood needs to have trees in it though. I've never seen a Wood Elf player actually bring their own free wood with trees - a nice circular piece of green card that is the exact specification to fit in two Treemen and a BSB and keep them all more than 2" from the edge, sure - but never actual trees. Poor Wood Elf players, so hard done by :(

Griefbringer
22-10-2008, 18:30
A wood needs to have trees?

Next they require that cavalry models actually have some sort of mounts on their bases, instead of the player clapping coconut halves when moving the unit.

popisdead
29-10-2008, 04:12
Usually it's not Pitched Battle and the Army book clearly states Pitched Battles (which doesn't even exist any longer).

Emeraldw
29-10-2008, 04:44
People will probably be complaining that their wood needs to have trees in it though. I've never seen a Wood Elf player actually bring their own free wood with trees - a nice circular piece of green card that is the exact specification to fit in two Treemen and a BSB and keep them all more than 2" from the edge, sure - but never actual trees. Poor Wood Elf players, so hard done by :(

Well to be fair it's usually something we have to carry around and a piece of plastic card is a lot easier to carry around to shops than a full terrain piece.

Dark14
29-10-2008, 07:52
if you lose because you didn't have a tree you have issues wood elf players.

DarkstarSabre
29-10-2008, 10:05
I think my Lizardmen should get free water terrain.

Cuz as it stands now, I never get to use the fact that they are Aquatic.

With my Lizards I must've played over 200+ games in the last two editions, if not more.

I can count the number of times I've gotten to make use of the Aquatic rules on a single hand.

And we're still paying the points for that as well.

So to all the Wood Elf players out there who are outraged that they cannot bring along their free trees....

Welcome to my world.

Bregalad
29-10-2008, 10:35
It would be stupid not to allow Wood Elf players all of the special army rules of their army and half of their spells. They should say "Wood elves forbidden, only Desert Elves allowed".

How about allowing Ogre armies with miniature height maximum 28mm or Bretonnian "No horses allowed" or ...

EvC
29-10-2008, 12:54
Well to be fair it's usually something we have to carry around and a piece of plastic card is a lot easier to carry around to shops than a full terrain piece.

Yep, and it's also easier to just grab a twig from outside, attach it to a 50mm base and say "This is my Treeman" but I'd call anyone doing that a complete fracking *****. Same with Wood Elf riders, I've played so many armies where it's just a bunch of horses, because they're easier that way. Borrowing a shop's trees is fine for that purpose to be honest, but at a tournament, can't be bothered to bring the forest- no forest for you.

logan054
29-10-2008, 13:16
A wood needs to have trees?

Next they require that cavalry models actually have some sort of mounts on their bases, instead of the player clapping coconut halves when moving the unit.

worked in the holy grail :D I do see why woodies are upset, no longer can they just hide their army in a wood, magic it across the board and then charge out when in a perfect position, damn, thats a real shame really. I guess maybe they might actually have to start using some new tactics!

Anyways i thought the scenery was fix at the GT's (im sure it was when i last went but that was a few years ago now).

Lord Malorne
29-10-2008, 13:24
Very rarely can we do that, more often than not it gets in our way :cries:.

Most players (well me at least) just move it in the way of an enemy unit...if I can cast it like 3 times in a row...D3+1 is not that fast :p.

logan054
29-10-2008, 13:28
I remember in my local GW thats how the staff taught a new WE player to use his army, to be honest i dont see many WE armies, the ones i have played have been people who dont know the rules of the army/game so i just discount these experiences.

Lord Malorne
29-10-2008, 13:32
I have tried to do that but whenever the wood did get close enough the unit inside was eother shot or magic deathed...

Stupid wood!

Though one game I managed to get two wood in the middle of the board and block my enemy from any realistic moving...serves the DE player right...bloody bolt throwers...

Wintertooth
29-10-2008, 13:47
Because the free wood is an army special rule?

For Pitched Battles. The GT scenarios are not Pitched Battle.

EvC
29-10-2008, 14:05
I have tried to do that but whenever the wood did get close enough the unit inside was eother shot or magic deathed...

Stupid wood!

That's why you keep everything in the wood more than 2" from the edge until the turn before the wood will be close enough for you to burst out from :)

Lord Malorne
29-10-2008, 15:44
Then I can't charge out as I can't see out :), then when I can see out the enemy is waiting to get me ;).

EvC
29-10-2008, 17:35
The ideal is three turns of safe movement across the table as your Glade Guard whittle down the enemy, then one turn where you're exposed, but will never take enough damage to wipe out two Treemen and loads of Dryads in one go. Easier said than done, mind :)

Odin
29-10-2008, 18:04
With my Lizards I must've played over 200+ games in the last two editions, if not more.

I can count the number of times I've gotten to make use of the Aquatic rules on a single hand.

And we're still paying the points for that as well.

So to all the Wood Elf players out there who are outraged that they cannot bring along their free trees....

Welcome to my world.

Yeah, those Skinks are well overpriced aren't they? :rolleyes:

How many points do you think you're paying for aquatic? I suspect you aren't paying any points at all for it - GW know that most of the time it won't be used.

Also, your army does not include a rule that says you get a free lake. Nor do half your spells and magic items rely on having woods on the battlefield. The WE army book does, rightly or wrongly, rely on woods, which is why it is built in to the army book. The Lizardmen army does not rely on water features to operate effectively.

narrativium
29-10-2008, 18:38
For Pitched Battles. The GT scenarios are not Pitched Battle.What phrasing would satisfy you, in order to modify the Pitched Battle scenario so as to include the free wood? Does the wood have to be explicitly mentioned?

The GT scenarios do not use the same victory conditions as Pitched Battle, and are therefore not Pitched Battle. They do, however, specify "Setup: see rules for Pitched Battle", and the Wood Elf free wood is placed on the table during the set-up of terrain. Not to mention, the House Rules FAQ document has specified the wood rule is valid in these scenarios.

I don't think it's wrong that tourney organisers in general should clarify the issue, which is why the question's in the FAQ... but it seems odd to me that more people seemed to have leaned against the rule rather than for it in this case.

Gaftra
29-10-2008, 19:12
It would be stupid not to allow Wood Elf players all of the special army rules of their army and half of their spells. They should say "Wood elves forbidden, only Desert Elves allowed".

How about allowing Ogre armies with miniature height maximum 28mm or Bretonnian "No horses allowed" or ...

this is what i agree with. in theory one six inch tree base isnt a game changer, its only one piece of terrain and has to placed in you table half. but if youve played wood elves and been on a board with no trees before you know how pivotal you can make that one tree be. a savvy wood elf player can use that single piece to stop a charge block LoS and a myriad of other examples.

You also have the issue WE magic, which is hardly a powerful lore to begin with, is largely based around there being a wood on the table along with MANY of the magic items and even certain builds like an orion list or especially a drycha tree spirit army. the difference from 1 to 2 woods is huge for things like moonstone of the hidden ways and a long list im not going to get into.

And the answer of "its too much work we dont want to deal with it" isnt exactly what i call satisfying justification.

Tokamak
29-10-2008, 19:19
For Pitched Battles. The GT scenarios are not Pitched Battle.

And that concludes the thread.

Gaftra
29-10-2008, 19:29
And that concludes the thread.

except that the thread isnt disputing weather or not its allowed but rather a discussion of the consequences of that ruling and how damaging they are or are not to WE players.

Wintertooth
29-10-2008, 19:52
What would *satisfy* me? What? I couldn't care less what they put in their rules packs or how they interpret what they wrote. I'm not playing in it.

The point is, Wood Elf players have no reason to expect a free wood in any game that is not using the standard Pitched Battle scenario, which apparently this event isn't. They haven't been "nerfed" in the slightest. It's not a change, it's what their rules say.

If the event organisers wanted Wood Elves to get a free wood in their modified scenarios, they would have to specify that that happens. All that FAQ does is confirm that the normal Wood Elf rules are in effect. Exactly as if they were playing a Flank Attack or Breakthrough in 6th edition.

Matthias Thulmann
29-10-2008, 23:35
I have played wood elves since the latest book has come out. I can honestly say I have probably played over 200 games with them and have never used the free wood. I do just fine. Sometimes it just gets in the way!

cobthelob
30-10-2008, 01:00
The extra wood can be very annoying on some heavily terrained boards-I've seen one with 4 woods, a building 2 hills and a water feature before the free wood was placed! 40k game anyone??

cobthelob
30-10-2008, 01:01
That was at a UKGT I might add.

Talonz
31-10-2008, 18:55
I hate that rule anyways. No sympathy from me.