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Grand Master Raziel
18-10-2008, 15:42
Howdy folks! GMR here. Been a while since I've been on with much frequency. In that time, the new edition of Codex: Space Marines finally arrived! I haven't seen too many threads discussing that book specifically (quite a few regarding Chaos or DA, though), so I thought I would offer my thoughts, in sort of an informal review of the book.

Let me start by saying that I am a huge Space Marines fan. I have been ever since I was introduced to 40K, some 6 years ago or so. I've been playing since 3rd edition, and have seen some highs and lows with SM armies over the years. Nonetheless, I've stuck with them, and consider myself to be reasonably good with them.

So, it may come as some surprise to you when I state that the new Codex: Space Marine bothers me somewhat. You'd think that someone who is a fan of the army would be drooling all over the new dex, with it's huge array of new stuff, but this one doesn't do it for me. It's taken me some time to puzzle out why I'm reacting to it this way, but I've come up with some ideas on that topic.

For starters, there's the whole comparison between Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Dark Angels. I know this is a well-aired topic, and I'm not looking to delve deeply into it here. What I will say is that, after an initial bad reaction to it, I bought into the design philosophy behind Codex: Dark Angels, which is part of the reason why I'm so taken aback by Codex: Space Marines. GW seemed to have been adopting a more streamlined and balanced approach to new dexes, starting with Codex: Eldar. This book seems to be a shift in design philosophy - not so much a total reversal, but definately a different course than what we've seen in the past (excepting perhaps Codex: Orks, but Orks needed the boost).

I suppose it's commendable that GW is trying to get the balance of certain things right, which is at least one way of interpreting why certain things are cheaper in Codex: Space Marines than in their identical equivalents in Codex: Dark Angels. Perhaps the designers felt that SM players were paying too many points for certain things, hence the downward tweaks. I'm a tad irked by that (I play a DA successor chapter), but not especially bent out of shape about it. I try to avoid SM-vs-SM battles by playing my antagonist army against SM players, so it's not like I'm going to be facing SM armies with my Night Angels with any kind of regularity. However, it's a niggle.

More than the DA thing, I think what bothers me about Codex: Space Marines is the sheer profusion of new units. I've played 40K in general and Space Marines in particular since 3rd edition. I cut my teeth with the 3rd ed dex and played the 4th ed dex until I decided to start using Codex: Dark Angels about a year after it came out. Those two books set my expectations as to what belongs in Codex: Space Marines. The 4th edition dex did not introduce a bunch of units that hadn't been in the 3rd ed book. Units were improved as needed, but the precedent was maintained. Now, this book comes out with a whole slew of new units, which I'm a little off-put by.

Take SM Veterans, for example. In the 3rd edition dex, all Vets were was a unit of Marines that cost +3 points per model more than Tac Marines for the privelege of all being Ld9 and being able to take pistol-ccw. I'm actually kind of surprised that they weren't a more popular unit back then, considering that Rhino Rush was such a heavily favored army style, but still not a very sexy unit overall.

Come 4th edition, Veterans saw a lot of improvement - Veteran Skills and upgraded CCW options. Still basically an assault unit, but a good one. My feeling is that their only downfall was that their abilities overlapped those of Command Squads quite a bit, and I, for one, tended to take Command Squads instead, if only as a vehicle to give Vet Skills to my ICs.

Codex: Dark Angels got Veterans just about right, IMO. DA Company Veterans can be made into a kickass assault unit, generally much better than 4th edition SM Veterans. However, they could also be made into a pretty shooty unit as well, by taking combi bolters instead of upgraded CCWs. This plus the fact that even with bolters they pack as many attacks as a SM Assault Squad made them seem very interesting to me. It made it seem as if there was a continuation to the career path that went from Scout to Tac to Devestator, where previously that seemed like a dead end, as veteran units tended to be assault units. IMO, if Company Veterans could substitute a second special weapon in their heavy weapon slot, and had a sergeant with upgrade options seperate from those of the squad, they'd be perfect.

This makes me look askance at the split between Sternguards and Vanguards in the new Codex: Space Marines. Admittedly, minus the magic bullets, Sternies are exactly what I would like to see in a shooty veteran SM unit. The magic bullets, however, seem a little over the top. The precedent for them was the Deathwatch Kill Team from way back when, but DKTs paid the same price as Sternies for guys who were basically the same (True Grit instead of 2 attacks base, had meltabombs), but with only ONE type of special round that was bought as an upgrade. That, I think, was too expensive, but being able to have them all seems a little OTT to me. Also, it's kind of a problem from a thematic standpoint. One might argue that if Sternies have magic bullets, why shouldn't Terminators have them as well? They're both members of their chapter's 1rst Company, and you'd think that if a warrior rates TDA, he also rates magic bullets if they're available. Note: I'm not saying that Termies should get magic bullets, I'm just saying it opens up thematic problems.

As for Vanguards, they sort of leave me cold, too. I'd have rather had Codex: Space Marines have one Elites unit patterned after DA Company Vets than have the two different kinds of veterans that they have. Veterans served a different purpose than jump pack squads. Plus, I think a whole unit with power weapons is kind of silly.

On other matters, I don't think that Venerable Dreadnoughts required their own unit entry. "Venerable" could have simply remained a Dreadnought upgrade - the boosted stats aren't really enough to rate an individual entry, and they certainly don't rate the vast increase in points.

And then there's the Thunderfire Cannon. I don't care what the guy who wrote the book says, that thing is a fixed artillery piece, and as such Space Marines would not touch the thing. If it can't be mounted on a Rhino chassis, it doesn't belong in a SM chapter's inventory - as it happens, I think it'd look great mounted on a Rhino, but it isn't. The designer's statement that they need it for fire support where they can't get tanks doesn't hold water, either. That's what they have things like Dreadnoughts, Land Speeders, and Devastators for.

I also don't think the book does a particularly good job portraying differences between First Founding chapters. Not that there should be radical differences in the first place - you could honestly just state that X chapter has a propensity for Y thing that can be had through the vanilla list, and be done with it for the most part. However, if you're going to do it, then the First Founding chapters ought to have a small set of chapter-specific rules that can be taken regardless of who you lead your force with. They could have made a couple of pages worth of room for it by having a little less of the "ZOMG Ultramarinezzz R teh R0XX0RZZZ!!!11!!11!!" fluff, and maybe abbrieviated the entries for the FF-chapter specific special characters. Most of the FF chapters wouldn't even need that much in the way of unique rules, anyway. For instance, Salamanders could have simply been handled by giving them the option of having their Tac Squads take heavy flamers in their heavy weapon slots. Raven Guard armies could have gotten rerolls on DS scatter dice if they have Scouts on the table (that was their original schtick, back in the day). White Scars: Bikes as Troops, maybe give them Veteran Bike Squads with Skilled Riders. This is not rocket science, and needn't have taken up much space.

So, what I guess it boils down to is that Codex: Space Marines tries to do too much. It kills the SM gunline once and for all, but the bucketloads of new units seem to have distracted the Warseer community from this fact - which, perhaps, was the intent (not Warseer, but SM players in general). It tries to boost Ultramarines armies while at the same time providing outlets for players of FF chapters that will never get their own dex (this would not be a problem if GW wasn't so allergic to online supplements). It stretches the boundaries of what should and shouldn't be in a SM army. It presents a different design philosophy than what we've seen in the immediate past. Unfortunately, I think GW expected too much of this one book, and even though it's huge, they tried to get it to do too much, and wound up with a book that doesn't do well any of the things they appear to have wanted it to do. However, that's just one fellow's opinion.

Lionsbane
18-10-2008, 16:11
I like all of your points save one. Where and how did it kill the marine gunline? Tac squads are pretty much as they always have been, Devs are still good. Not saying you are wrong just want to hear the thoughts behind it.

Lord Malorne
18-10-2008, 16:15
I duuno, the new codex has drwan me to do a SM army after 8 years as the army I have been wanting to do has the reresentation now and I beleive the force will work, it does try to do too much...but I think it does it well.

Don't get me wrong alot of things are overpowered but overall it is easy to do a fluffy balanced army...if you try ;).

leonmallett
18-10-2008, 16:18
Well thought out comments.

I have to agree that maybe the Chapter Tactics should have been an option available outside of selecting an SC, maybe as an addendum for Chapter Masters or somesuch, but then again I wonder how well conceived they are. The Salamander option seems overpowered to me, but then I haven't seen it in action. The point is how often will the default ability to fail a morale check be used vs an army spammed to the hilt with flamers and meltas?

I have to agree that there is perhaps too much in the book. I realy cannot see a Thunderfire as an obvious choice, especially as it competes with so many simply better choices or combinations. For example many players adopt the approach of taking multiple tanks to build redundancy into their lists to compensate for lucky shots taking out a lone tank. That said the Master of the Forge was a good step I feel, and with the Captain bike option allows for a couple of diversified army constructions - but why not have included a jump pack option for the Captain also? The same warriors take to the field on bikes or as jump pack specialists, so to exclude the latter as a Troop choice seems odd, given that using the BA codex allows such an option.

I was glad to see the Legion of the Damned make an official return, but as with Harlequins in Codex: Eldar feel it is a bit of a tease as so many gamers would love armies of either I am sure.

Overall I feel this was a better book than its predecessor, but I feel that there should have been greater emphasis on some of the other high-profile codex-orthodox chapters.

leonmallett
18-10-2008, 16:19
I like all of your points save one. Where and how did it kill the marine gunline? Tac squads are pretty much as they always have been, Devs are still good. Not saying you are wrong just want to hear the thoughts behind it.

The 6-man las-plas squad has gone from being a ubiquitous Troops option.

Noserenda
18-10-2008, 17:03
Pretty much the same kind of things I was thinking tbh, a whole boatload of chozzy options instead of things people wanted to see really. I was sold on the new streamlined codexes too, and now a giant leap backwards :(

Plus, Thunderfire Cannons dont even seem that useful given how easy thee are to kill (Plus they are a ludicrous £30) :skull:

Warforger
18-10-2008, 19:03
I hhhhhhhaaaaaatttteeeee 3+ invul storm shields, whoever did that deserves to recieve a bolter round to the face, that is the most retarded thing in the codex.

/spillin

anyway, this codex is awsome although it seems a couple of things where overlooked or where done at the last minute, Ironclad costs waayy to little, Nenerable costs too much compared to Ironclad, LoTD cost too much compared to Sternguard, Sternguard cost too little compared to LoTD.

Although I like combat tactics though, makes losing a assault not as bad. I also like the special ammunuitions and assaulting from deepstrike, it has alot of goodies but some are pointless and tainted.

Helveticus
18-10-2008, 19:15
The 3+ is probably too high, but it was designed to make TH/SS as attractive as 2LC. Probably should have made TH/SS 4+ all the time, and done something else to make them more attractive.

Sternguard should probably be slightly more, Vanguard should have come with jump packs standard, and a little more. It drives me batty that Sternguard can use their special-ness base, and in fact are designed to, while Vanguard have to pay their points again more-or-less to use their special-ness to full effect.

EmperorEternalXIX
18-10-2008, 19:18
Well said. I will comment on the new units bit, however.

It is my belief that the new units are a way of advancing the fluff timeline more towards the grim resolution of the Imperium's ultimate fate. We have seen this with many things, particularly the daemon codex, whose entire existence is predicated on the idea that things are getting worse and so these hordes of daemons are appearing with increasing frequency.

Overall I am very happy with the Space Marine codex, not for it's power but for it's logic. I feel like most of the things in there are signs of the times:
1.) More veteran marines makes a lot of sense if they have been fighting desperately on all fronts even more than before
2.) Sternguard ammo shows that the marines are developing new ways to fight old foes out of desperation
3.) Ironclad Dreadnought really shows the veneration given to a dreadnought warrior by creating a more powerful chassis for him to inhabit, also reflects the very real tabletop truth that their counterparts were not viable in battle all the time
4.) The presence of traitor rounds for sternguard reinforce the increased chaos presence in Imperium space reinforced in other books

I don't feel anything in it is overpowered or miscosted really. The thing is, I always felt marines were underpowered or balanced poorly since the dawn of my joining the game in 4th ed. It always seemed my opponents had some nasty sledgehammer units or very strong firepower or super fast flanking squads to throw at me, and the most I ever had was a DA Command Squad with a Banner -- which is mauled by most things with a power weapon with ease. Now I feel the space marines have comparably powerful options to say Eldar or Orks or Chaos (Chaos has been able to field a 75+ model army with some of the most potent offense in the game throughout, but is largely ignored in favor of cult stuff in my area).

Honestly I am a bit upset by the uproar over the codex. The Orks, for example, have just as much insane stuff -- look at Ghazgkull, or old Zoggie's curse move, or the burna boyz+truck combo (tons of flamers all at one from open topped vehicle = DEVASTATING). But heard no outcry over them. I think a lot of it is just the macho space marine hate that courses through so much of the gaming community.

I feel that this new dex has put the marines on par and made them a very viable and varied interesting force without the abusability of the traits system, and overall I think they have done a good job, personally.

Vaktathi
18-10-2008, 21:29
With respect to the new SM codex, there are a lot of things I like about it, and a lot of things where they went overboard.

It seems that just about everything in the SM army that can be found in other books is either cheaper, better, or both (Vindicator is cheaper than in other books, but auto-passes terrain tests for instance, the Predator is identical to the CSM/DA one, but cheaper, etc...)

the 3++ save on Stormshields I don't think was warranted, had they simply made the 4+ work against shooting attacks, that would have been sufficient. As-is, I really don't see how they are balanced in any way for 40pts. I think buffing the Thunderhammer would have been a much better way of doing it.

The increased transport capacities I'm mixed on. While from a game perspective they work a little better, its odd that after 15 years they change this, but then *refuse* to do so for any other army with the exact same units. Also that their cost didn't change is also...odd. Power of the Machine Spirit's buff was in no way justifiable that I can see, especially for *no* increase in cost.

The Characters are simply over the top. I honestly don't see how GW thought most of these guys were in any way balanced for their cost, given the abilities they bestow on their army just for being included in the list. Honestly, do we really need 2+/3+ save termi's with MC'd thunderhammers for 40pts with an already tought as nails MC leading them that also makes all melta/flamer weapons TL'd, really, that is in any way balanced? I think not. Not only that, but not it makes it seem mandatory to take such characters in order to have a fluffy chapter list, but at the same time they aren't *restricted* in any way so an Ultramarines army could have Cantor and Vulkan in the same army while neither are actually Ultramarines. If all that makes a list "fluffy" or "Salamanders" is that it has Vulkan, well then that's even worse than the much berated 3.5 Chaos Space Marine codex.


Some of the things I really like. The dreads and thunderfire cannons I think are awesome, as well as the Techmarine rules and the Master of the Forge. The new LR variant is kinda interesting too, although I'm not really sure that AP3 is justified on it, especially considering its 10pts cheaper than the other LR's.

The Razorback options are cool, I like that they brought back the old Lascannon/Plasma combo.

Sternguard vets are cool, but seem very abuseable. They can take the place of a Devestator squad in many instances and are able to instantly change their effectiveness profile, they almost seem more suited to HS than Elites. Bolters that ignore cover saves I think is unwarranted in any capacity, especially against armies that rely on cover for any sort of survival, two units of Sternguard would have no trouble making a mess of an IG flank by themselves.

As to the writing in codex itself, while some of the fluff is cool, too much of it reads like a purple prose bad fanfic unfortunately. This codex sadly only increases the "Spehse Mahreens HURR!" stereotype when they really could have been done much better I think.

Another thing that really irks me about the book was the almost sychophantic focus on Ultramarines. They have done these guys to death, and quite frankly made them out to be ridiculous, the typical "HURR DURR!" space marines. That and half the characters are Ultramarines is kinda silly. What's worse is that these guys are supposed to be useable in any list (which I think is stupid, but oh well), yet their models all have those silly gigantic Omega symbols on them.

Given that SM's in 4th really never had trouble staying competitive through the whole thing (given that they could do just about everything but a dedicated CC list and do it well, I mean, a 2000pt list would net you 80 marines with 6 dev squads, 3 of which could infiltrate or have Tank Hunters, and more heavy weapons than the vast majority of IG armies with an ld10 Master giving everyone Ld10) I don't see why they needed an update so badly. While they lost or had much of their more abuseable 4th ed aspects toned down, I don't think SM players are really going to mourn it. They've got the 2nd 5th ed book released and not only do they get new toys, all of their stuff is better than everyone else's identical stuff.


Overall, they could have done a much better job with this codex, and SM's weren't in any way underpowered before, why they needed the boost is beyond me, and their fluff needs some work to be be less "HURR! defeat anything with a single mahreen HURR!"

Elios Harg
18-10-2008, 21:59
I generally like the push away from the gunline and toward more aggressive tactics. I also, like many of the new units and rules, though many are also over the top. I dislike the treatment of Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Black Templars that share options.

Grand Master Raziel
19-10-2008, 04:48
Sternguard vets are cool, but seem very abuseable. They can take the place of a Devestator squad in many instances and are able to instantly change their effectiveness profile, they almost seem more suited to HS than Elites. Bolters that ignore cover saves I think is unwarranted in any capacity, especially against armies that rely on cover for any sort of survival, two units of Sternguard would have no trouble making a mess of an IG flank by themselves.

Yeah. One of the things I particularly don't like about Sternies is that the magic bullets pretty much make the unit one that you don't have to put any thought into how to use, except for getting them into rapid fire range. You can pretty much just use whichever flavor of magic bullet best fits the situation.


What's worse is that these guys are supposed to be useable in any list (which I think is stupid, but oh well), yet their models all have those silly gigantic Omega symbols on them.

One thing I'd suggest to GW is that any army-specific sigils or symbols should be kept off the main body of any models they sell, and instead be placed in places where individual players can easily leave them off if they so desire - in the case of SM figures, that would be the shoulder pads and backpacks. Case in point: the old UM Tyrranic War Vets. Great looking figures that I would have used if they weren't plastered all over with UM symbols in places that would be extremely hard to remove.

Sidstyler
19-10-2008, 05:24
Honestly I am a bit upset by the uproar over the codex. The Orks, for example, have just as much insane stuff -- look at Ghazgkull, or old Zoggie's curse move, or the burna boyz+truck combo (tons of flamers all at one from open topped vehicle = DEVASTATING). But heard no outcry over them. I think a lot of it is just the macho space marine hate that courses through so much of the gaming community.

Well, personally I kinda agree with you, but I think one of the main reasons why the Orks haven't seen many complaints is simply how long it took GW to do anything with them. For the most part Ork players were very patient and I didn't see hardly any whining at all since the time I had started 40k, so maybe a lot of people just felt like they deserved the boost?

Though like I said, I agree with you, the Ork codex has some scary things in it and I'm afraid to fight them. I don't have enough flamers...:p

Anyway, I just want to say that is a very good, well thought-out, honest review.

Malphax
19-10-2008, 06:41
From a company that claims to encourage friendly play and a non-competitive environment, we get an army list that seems awfully prone to powergaming. I find this odd.

==Me==
19-10-2008, 06:51
Thanks for taking the time to post that, GMR, I agree with a lot of what you put up there.

I think the marine codex is great. It's flexible, has lots of potential army builds, a ton of options, new units and blasts from the past, and a ton of theming opportunities. I think every Codex should be done with this level of dedication. If that were to happen I think 40k would be just about perfect as it is.

==My== biggest gripe is the no brainer special characters and the treatment DA/BA/BT/Chaos got in comparison. There's virtually no point to take certain characters when SCs are only a few points more and totally remake the army. A normal mech force becomes ridiculous with Khan and outflanking, free flamers are silly with Vulkan, and Sicarius is easily the most tactically flexible and useful one of the bunch.

If GW keeps up this latest trend in Codex design I'll be ok with it, as it shows that they can stick to a direction instead of just buffing their flagship army. If IG or SW don't end up this good I will be disappointed.

Unclejo
19-10-2008, 09:15
Worst things about Codex Space Marines are hands down the fluff and the Special Characters.

I get the impression that most of the background was typed up one-handed in a dark room...

I do not agree that Special characters must be taken to have a themed list (But Ive vented about that elsewhere, so I'll shut up.). However, they are in many cases a no-brainer choice. Why take a generic Captain on a bike when Khan isnt that much more expensive? Why take a generic Chaplain when you can get Cassius, who is so much better? Why, given the same equipment, is Kantor so stupidly cheap compared to a generic Chapter Master?

I think you should pay a premium for special characters. In this book you seem to get free points.

EmperorEternalXIX
19-10-2008, 09:21
I actually do not use any of the special characters, to be honest. They are all pretty cool and all, but none of them is quite what I'm looking for. I have always wanted a Librarian-led army...

I agree that the SCs can be abused a bit. But I have faith in GW and their planning ahead -- as I pointed out in another thread, models compatible with this codex were out as long ago as the Apocalypse release -- and so I imagine that the Marine's power level is just the gauge by which all others will be buffed.

I am sure, for example, that the Imperial Guard will be TERRIFYING when their codex gets redone...what I truly look forward to is the late-edition codex releases of unconfirmed possibilities like Tyranids, Necrons, and Chaos. I feel that those three armies in particular, under the 5th Ed mythos of "power balanced by flexibility in options," will become incredibly powerful. After seeing things like Sternguard, the Toughness 6 Necron Warrior or the 9-attack Daemon Prince do not seem like so distant a possibility...

hiveminion
19-10-2008, 10:41
Also, it's kind of a problem from a thematic standpoint. One might argue that if Sternies have magic bullets, why shouldn't Terminators have them as well?


Well, the ammunition types aren't compatible with storm bolters, and as most Terminators are armed with these, I think it's justified from a thematic viewpoint that they don't have them.

All in all the only thing about the Codex I don't like is the fluff (although I think some of the artwork is poor as well), as has already been mentioned. It's simply poorly written, most of it doesn't read like a story but more like a manual.

Regarding the list, I like all the new options and am happy I can still kit out my sergeants pretty much how I want.
I'm not sure what the problem is with Sternguard, they pack quite a punch but cost a lot of points, and they die as easily as a normal tactical squad.

The thing with Special Characters is that while yes they seem cheap for what they have, they are handicapped by their lack of wargear options. Yes you can take Cassius for a few points more than a regular Chaplain but you don't get a Jump Pack, which I'd personally rather have than an increased Toughness. You can take Pedro Kantor but while he's excellent as a supporting character, his power fist limits his own close combat potential. Even with his 4+ Invulnerable striking at Initiative 1 is a major gamble. In most cases I'd rather have a Master with a relic blade. Korsarro Khan sacrifices the Combat Tactics special rule which I would think is quite handy for Bike armies to avoid getting stuck in close combat.

As for Salamanders, White Scars etc. not getting special rules without having to take a special character, I wonder why people need extra options to make their armies fluffy? Why not restrict yourself to achieve that? Isn't that the way it's usually done? Salamanders, Raven Guard and White Scars all have fluffy builds for them in the new codex without having to take their respective characters.

All in all I think it's a great codex for gameplay but not one for fluff.

tarrin
19-10-2008, 11:00
To be honest i am disappointed overall. Most of the points have been covered here, but i think the overall point is that in no way did they need this boost, especially as other codices needed changes first.

Because the slow release of codices, this codice simply puts them ahead, even without the special characters. Outflanking scouts with powerfists,combi flamer on a multimelta speeder storm. My tau have been on the end of this several times recently. Flies in 12" , goodbye hammerhead, The scouts get out then assault pathfinders, stealth etc. And their is nothing i can do about it. 3 squads of this and my army is gone. There is no other force that can do this, even with outflank, becuase of the potential 20" range.

Thankfully i find the best way to deal with termies is massed small arms (pathfinder guided stealth), rather than plasma but the 3++ is ridiculous.

simply have gone too far.

Shas'o Zor'bas
19-10-2008, 11:17
The Marines are more powerful than ever before, everyone must agree with this. But in my opinion that's how it should be. They are the champions of mankind born by the genes of the god Emperor himself.

I play Tau but I really like the fact that I fear facing a space marine army while in 4th Edition they where my prefered enemy.

I agree with Tarrin though. Dark Eldar, Necrons and IG should have been updated before them

Archangel_Ruined
19-10-2008, 12:15
I disagree somewhat. Thunderfire guns are fine, they're from back in RT and 2nd Ed, alongside Tarrantula platforms. Marines also have to be able to defend ground so heavy weapons are fine. As for the split in veterans, I'd say it's good, it's better than trying to give one veteran squad all those possible upgrades, and it better represents the tactical depth and flexibility of a true codex chapter. The only new units I can see in there are the land speeder transports, the rest are just tweaks and upgrades on existing units or older units brought back into the fray. I think it's a very good list, it's just a bit of a shock to the system after the last few lists. I've been playing since the end of RT and my marines, which I am very fond of, have been through a lot of changes, this new list isn't a massive one, but it is if I want to get the best out of them and I like that. I can try and carry on with the army builds from the last list and wonder why they don't work properly or I can rebuild into a more orthodox structure and resume spreading the word of the emperor on the tip of a big whirring blade.

Leo
19-10-2008, 12:44
From a company that claims to encourage friendly play and a non-competitive environment, we get an army list that seems awfully prone to powergaming. I find this odd.

yeah, who´d have thought after Codex: Tyranids, Codex: Eldar, Codex: Chaos (both) and Codex: Orks? such a radical change of pace ^^

some of the OP points are valid, there is a thematic problem with Terminators not getting super ammo, but the possibility to change weapons to a specific purpose ingame? Hardly a new concept. Obliterators and to a lesser degree Noise Marines have had this option for quite some time.

As for the new Codex being claimed to make marines too strong: It´s a new Codex, and so prone to be whined about, nothing new here.
Besides, they are Space Marines. People have been whining and bitching about them being too powerful (while also claiming that they beat them all the time) for about as long as message boards existed. I wont start taking them seriously all of a sudden.

The inconsistency with the equipment is strange but hardly new, I as a Demonhunter player have been knowing this problem for some time and I am confident that, had all this shiny new stuff been available to Dark Angels* instead of the 'stoopit nilla smurfs' we would not hear so much as a bleep from them. Instead it would say that of course the special chapter gets special stuff because they are so 'firsterested and besterested'.

After reading the background parts of the Marine Codex, especially the Ultramarines stuff, I can pass the bitching about it as the usual omnipresent background noise of Warseers vast hatez-Marinez crew.
In all the other Codexes you get Demonprinces butchering the first company of a full chapter on a weekend trip, Abbaddon tearing down huge castles with his demonic toothpick, Arihman tracking down Inquisitors just like that, Orks destroying Titans with their Waaghbikes, Eldrad changing the fate of whole sectors from his wheelchair at home, Iryel killing unkillable Tyranids with a flic of his hands and Tau commanders generally solving every problem with their usual ease. But oh my, when Calgar has the audacity to face down an Avatar, being injured in the process, all hell breaks loose.
Thus I am confident that, had Calgar only featured modestly in the stories, Warseer would bitch about that just as well, had he not been mentioned at all, all Warseer would ring with laughter about that, too. Ultramarines could not have done it right, no matter what.


The problems I have with this Codex, other than it´s not for my army, are only minor and show up in every Codex I have ever read.

So nothing new, really, although I would like if all new Codexes were 120 page monsters.

(* substitute any other special Marine chapter)

Archangel_Ruined
19-10-2008, 12:54
Bravo, sir.

Doomseer
19-10-2008, 13:06
Nice review OP you make some fair points.

The codex has some good ideas, (LOTD), and some bad ideas, (Thunderfire gun, seemingly arbitrary wargear and price tweaks), and a few new units all of a sudden when compared to the transition through previous editions.

For all its supposed diversity I find it amusing that all of my regular marine opponents found it impossible to look beyond Vulkan and Sicarius to lead their lists. Its like they were told they should be using them! "Oh, but I've changed his name and given him my Chapters colours" seems to be their only part in the decision!

I have seen nothing in C:SM that has made me think I should ditch the Blood Angels and start a new list with it, not that I had any plans to anyway!

This is not an attack, I'm just finding it all quite amusing at the moment!

Vaktathi
19-10-2008, 18:30
The Marines are more powerful than ever before, everyone must agree with this. But in my opinion that's how it should be. They are the champions of mankind born by the genes of the god Emperor himself.
Just because something is horrendously powerful doesn't mean it should be overpowered as an army. It means that the individual units should be very powerful, but also very expensive. It doesn't mean they should be more powerful as an army. 2000pts of army X should be equal to 2000pts of army Y, even if each individual dude in army X can easily kill 10 in Y, Y may just have a hell of a lot more people.

Blacula
19-10-2008, 18:37
i really like the new codex as it is sooo close to the fluff with their playing style, ROCK ON MARINES! btw 10 auxilary grenade launchers are stupidly good againt nids lol 10 marines 32 genestealers dead 1 turn

HsojVvad
19-10-2008, 18:54
As for Salamanders, White Scars etc. not getting special rules without having to take a special character, I wonder why people need extra options to make their armies fluffy? Why not restrict yourself to achieve that? Isn't that the way it's usually done? Salamanders, Raven Guard and White Scars all have fluffy builds for them in the new codex without having to take their respective characters.

All in all I think it's a great codex for gameplay but not one for fluff.

There has to be special rules for Salamanders, RG and WS for people like me. I have no idea what they should be like. So I don't know what to restrict myself with.

I have to strongly disagree with you when you say we have to restrict ourselves. In other words, I believe you are saying GW can't do a good job at making a product and we have to do their job for them?

Or how about this? Maybe you are going up against a WS force. The person tells you he is doing White Scars, and when you see him deploy his force, it's all Termies and no Bikes. How is that for somone restricting themselves?

Archangel_Ruined
19-10-2008, 19:22
If you have no idea what they should be like why don't you do some research before trying to make a themed, fluffy list? That isn't an attack, just an opinion. It isn't GW's job to make actual rules for any concievable themed army, just to make the rules flexible enough to allow you to field such an army if you wish. The book would be twice as thick and half as good if they included enough special rules for that, and people would just abuse them like the trait system. If you want to do a themed army with those rules find a copy of the index astartes and ask your opponents permission, I've never refused to play any such army even though the rules can be a little biased after so many years, codeces and editions have passed.

Helveticus
19-10-2008, 19:31
No, actually the all other codex chapters don't have fluffy builds available to them. Shrike lost his wing. Command Squads can't take jump packs.

While I don't want to see Jump Infantry counting as troops, Some customisation would be nice... Be free upgrades and attendant restrictions, or whatever.

Strix
19-10-2008, 19:46
I like the new marine codex. To be honest, I think its good to see them bringing out a lot of new units, I only hope they carry on doing it for the rest of the codexes (before some idiot tells me I've got it wrong, I dont care) and if the rumours about the 21 tanks in the IG codex are true, it seems like it could be the way forward.

The units themselves I have mixed feelings about:

Sternguard are rock hard, but I think the ability to go bolter-plasma on all men is a bit much.
Masters of the forge are something I've felt has been missing for a long time, and its always nice to see the conversion beamer back. If only they'd also done the rules for some other older bits of kit as well.
Vanguard rule. why they didn't think of this earlier is beyond me.
Land speeder storms: This bothered me, why are they a dedicated fast attack option and not a dedicated transport?
Thunderfires: Very cool, but their metal and multipart, therefore their difficult to build and I'll be making plastic ones.

As far as the special characters go, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say they should have been limited to 0-1 per army except in apocalypse, otherwise it gets out of hand, fast.

The only thing thats put me off the book is that I look at the economy at the moment, and I see GW re-releasing its two biggest sellers: 40k and marines. Although I love my marines, other armies needed doing first.

ernest101
19-10-2008, 20:23
to be honest and totally in my opinion, i feel the marine codex isn't a marine codex anymore (except for the combat tactics and removal of termie honors, i like it), i see it as a codex to buff up space marines so that they have an edge/fighting chance against codex orks and chaos. and no i am not complaining, i just feel a few things inside there is a lil too much like the changeable whirlwind missile? whats up with that. changeable special rounds in sternguards is also another gift i feel is a lil too much, scouts being able to rig buildings with 2d6 str 4... and there are somethings aren't called for like chaplains initiative is 4? and in my opinion any scouts who takes a sniper rifle shall get a +1 to their bs... 4+ to hit for a sniper rifle really unacceptable to me...

keatsmeister
19-10-2008, 20:38
Some cogent points GMR, and replies too.

My bugbears:-

Sternguard and Vanguard Vets, I can see the point, and certainly the blueshirt at my local store was quite excited about these (you are all familiar with feigned excitement intended to guarantee a sale...). It does make sense to have Vets in the key areas of a Marine army, but I don't know that they needed to be that special. I was quite happy with Vets as they appeared in 4th edition, maybe a tweak here or there on weapon options would have been fine.

Regular Marine units, I do feel that requiring ten Marines just to get access to a single Flamer is a bit too restrictive. Fair enough it stops the 6 man Las/Plas squads, but this could have been done without leaving Razorback mounted tac squads with just their bolters. I'd have preferred allowing Tactical squads one choice from either the special or heavy weapons, and then only allowing the alternative weapon once they have ten men. That'd make more sense to me.

Honour Guard. Is it just me, or is that the single most tempting target you've ever fired your Demolisher cannon at? :D

Finally, Khan. What is the point of giving him the choice of NOT riding Moondrakkan? Moonfang is good, but not enough to justify a 40pt difference. You still have to pay another 45pts to get access to his Chapter tactics rule :rolleyes: Personally, I'm sticking with my trusted White Scars Khan on a regular bike :)

Some key issues have been redressed, especially the cost of transports, but I'm still to be convinced either way as to whether this version is a genuine stepforward for Marines

P.S. - Captains on a bike allow a biker force. Chapter Masters can't?!? :wtf:

Archangel_Ruined
19-10-2008, 20:43
Snipers hit on a 2+ regardless. Anyhow, I think the Storms not being transport options is a good idea, they'd be too good in large numbers in my humble opinion. My only concern there is that they compete with scout bikers in FA so making a varied 10th company list can become tricky, but then again so few people do that and I'm sure they'll still manage anyway since they haven't actually lost anything but instead have gained a choice.

Vaktathi
19-10-2008, 20:51
Snipers hit on a 2+ regardless. Snipers hit on normal Ballistic skill in 5th ed.

Helveticus
19-10-2008, 20:53
Can you give me a page number for that? They used to hit on a 2+ in 4th Ed, but now, that part of the sniper rule is gone from the sniper section of the BRB...

Blacula
19-10-2008, 21:12
i like the new sternguard, also the bloster defences rule for 50 pts is brilliant with a big terrain piece

keatsmeister
19-10-2008, 21:14
Can you give me a page number for that? They used to hit on a 2+ in 4th Ed, but now, that part of the sniper rule is gone from the sniper section of the BRB...

It was always a weapon specific rule before, but it no longer appears anywhere in the BRB (much to my horror first time I played my Snipers in 5th ed :rolleyes:), so it's gone I'm afraid.

Getting back to topic, just a thought in regards to the direction of the Codex. Much as I like the restrained nature of previous Codices like what I feel is a decent Codex Dark Angels, it would be unsustainable as an approach for every 5th edition Codex. There are some that need a good boost in such a manner (Dark Eldar I'm thinking here), and if every codex was like COdex Dark Angels, I could go into a random club and have a very strong chance of predicting the composition of any given force there. There are plenty who'd do everything to avoid that, and from the bottom of my heart, BRAVO! However, I think that really wouldn't be the step forward many people are looking for

Cypher, the Emperor
19-10-2008, 21:22
I agree that the Thundefire doesn't make alot of sense fluff wise, but usually in the fluff the marines have the IG or PDF providing long range support and that doesn't in regular 40k games.

I too noticed the lack of info on the FF's in the new book, which lead me to suspect that GW might be thinking about published a new version of Index Astares to expand on the rather vanilla list options covered by the new C:SM and C:CSM. Its not like it wouldn't sell, anything SM sells and I would gladly pay for a 30 dollar book with expanded rules and fluff and I suspect alot of other gamers would too.

Archangel_Ruined
19-10-2008, 21:26
Bloody hell, you're right. That's a bit of a faux par on my part, I've been playing my ratlings á la 4th but with rending... Ah, teething issues with new rules, this is the 5th ruleset, therefore 4th change I've dealt with, and I've still not perfected the art of graceful transition... Ah well, I always field my scouts with BP and CCW for hacky slashy work and thankfully I've clocked the drop in WS and BS. As for being able to predict the composition of most DA armies, that's quite a good thing really, just as I can predict the general theme in most whitescars lists. There's really only 3 distinct elements of any DA force, so the possible flavours of an army are at first glance initially limited. However, I think the real success of the DA list is to take those 3 elements and make the interactions between them so important, so that there are different ways to play what at first glance are similar lists. I don't think other lists lend themselves to this rigid style of combined arms which is why I don't think we'll see more lists in the style of the DA, they're unique in that respect and should remain so.

Archangel_Ruined
19-10-2008, 21:31
Also, the thunderfire is one of the fluffiest things in the codex, it's old-skool, with a k and everything. Just because most people are too young to remember the days of tarrantulas and thud guns doesn't mean marines don't have static support weapons. The fluff for marines is rooted to their tactical flexibility, eg. their ability to defend ground as well as attack it.

hiveminion
19-10-2008, 22:03
I have to strongly disagree with you when you say we have to restrict ourselves. In other words, I believe you are saying GW can't do a good job at making a product and we have to do their job for them?

That's not what I'm saying, I'm saying I think it's unnecessary for GW to publish rules for using Raven Guard/White Scars/Salamanders when those chapters are perfectly representable by the current codex, even without having to use the special characters. Raven Guard can have Scout Bikers with Locator Beacons, Vanguard Vets, Assault Marines, Tactical Squads in Drop Pods/Razorbacks. Salamanders have a Redeemer, Multi-Melta Dreads/Speeders/Devastators, Ironclads, Assault Terminators. White Scars can field a Command Squad on Bikes, and mount their entire army on them as well, as well as Rhinos.



Or how about this? Maybe you are going up against a WS force. The person tells you he is doing White Scars, and when you see him deploy his force, it's all Termies and no Bikes. How is that for somone restricting themselves?

Well I never said you must restrict yourself when playing White Scars. However when you want to field a fluffy White Scars army, then you can do so using the current list. You don't get any special rules changes unless you take Korsarro, but that is not the point of a themed list anyway.


No, actually the all other codex chapters don't have fluffy builds available to them. Shrike lost his wing. Command Squads can't take jump packs.

Well, Vanguard veterans with lightning claws can be used as Shrike's Wing. I'm not sure if Jump Pack Command Squads are Raven Guard, I thought that was a Blood Angels thing?

Archangel_Ruined
19-10-2008, 22:41
Actually, come to think of it, what is remotely unfluffy about a white scars terminator heavy army? They have a first company and they aren't just for show, so why not? I wholeheartedly agree with Hive Minions' above post.

Grand Master Raziel
20-10-2008, 02:33
Well, the ammunition types aren't compatible with storm bolters, and as most Terminators are armed with these, I think it's justified from a thematic viewpoint that they don't have them.

Even if that were the case, Terminators could just carry bolters instead of storm bolters. With the special ammo types, bolters would be far more advantageous than storm bolters.


I disagree somewhat. Thunderfire guns are fine, they're from back in RT and 2nd Ed, alongside Tarrantula platforms.

I'd actually be happier to see Tarantula guns. Those things are completely automated, so they're a far more logical option for a SM army. It gives them something they can drop in an area that rates defending but doesn't rate tying down valuable Space Marines to defend.


As for the split in veterans, I'd say it's good, it's better than trying to give one veteran squad all those possible upgrades, and it better represents the tactical depth and flexibility of a true codex chapter.

I disagree. Dark Angels Company Veterans show that one unit can be given that degree of tactical flexibility without being stupidly overpowered. DA Company Vets were the single best power armor-wearing SM Elite choice GW has ever put in print, IMO, even including Sternies. I'd be just embarrassed to use Sternies.


There has to be special rules for Salamanders, RG and WS for people like me. I have no idea what they should be like. So I don't know what to restrict myself with.


There really doesn't have to be special rules for the First Founding chapters, with the exception of the Space Wolves. All players need is a good background article on the chapter in question, along with a core list flexible enough to allow players to build thematically. The core list in Codex: Space Marines certainly qualifies there.


Also, the thunderfire is one of the fluffiest things in the codex, it's old-skool, with a k and everything. Just because most people are too young to remember the days of tarrantulas and thud guns doesn't mean marines don't have static support weapons. The fluff for marines is rooted to their tactical flexibility, eg. their ability to defend ground as well as attack it.

Just because there is a RT or 2nd edition precedent doesn't mean that the item in question belongs in a 5th edition codex. The fluff has changed a bit since then, and in many ways been tightened up and become more coherent. Static artillery is more of an IG thing than a SM thing, so the Thunderfire isn't thematically appropriate, IMO.


That's not what I'm saying, I'm saying I think it's unnecessary for GW to publish rules for using Raven Guard/White Scars/Salamanders when those chapters are perfectly representable by the current codex, even without having to use the special characters.

I'm inclined to agree. It's the same principle as to why the Chaos Legions don't require their own dexes, either. The core list is flexible enough to allow players to play thematically appropriate armies for their chosen Chapter or Legion. That said, if the developers are going to take a crack at providing those rules, they should do it right, with their own dexes (or at least WD/onlinle army lists), not in the half-assed fashion that this dex and the last one did. FF-chapter players would have been better served without the special characters, instead having a page or so of background material to let them know what a thematically-appropriate FF-chapter army list should look like.

Darkstar2586
20-10-2008, 10:43
Can you imagine a terminator changing his ammo clip with a power fist every time he wanted to swap his "magic ammo" ? Id say its safe to assume the Termies are too busy training and homing their termy skills. The sternguard are practicing their shooting and vanguard Hand to hand. It says that SM's are skilled in the majority of fields but doesn't say they excel in it as others mite.

Would be advantageous to have anyone trained in the bolter to a high skill to carry on using it instead of donning on termy armour and using a storm bolter.

Hrafn
20-10-2008, 11:32
First, let me say that you made a nice review. I don't agree on all points, but hey, that's what make a review ;)

Overall, I think it is an excellent Codex. In many ways what Codeci should be in the future. Good rules and an increased amount of background. My main gripe has nothing to do with the Codex itself, but rather with the comparison to other recent Codeci, ie. the design strategy. Despite the fact that I love th SM Codex, I must admit that it does stand out compared to the other 5th ed Codeci. There is simply much more of everything, which does fuel the marine hatez. I hope that this is a sign of things to come rather than a one-off special treatment for the poster boys.

As to the rampant critisicism of the over the top ability of SM in the Codex, I am somewhat amused. I attribute it to the usual stance towards SM on Warseer, since I for the love of God can't see what's different here compared to other Codeci, where the protagonists are always teh uber :confused:


I'm inclined to agree. It's the same principle as to why the Chaos Legions don't require their own dexes, either. The core list is flexible enough to allow players to play thematically appropriate armies for their chosen Chapter or Legion. That said, if the developers are going to take a crack at providing those rules, they should do it right, with their own dexes (or at least WD/onlinle army lists), not in the half-assed fashion that this dex and the last one did. FF-chapter players would have been better served without the special characters, instead having a page or so of background material to let them know what a thematically-appropriate FF-chapter army list should look like.

Interesting thought. I don't disagree that a page of fluff would be better. However, after reading through tons of posts here, I'd say that a great many players don't want fluff - they want rules! Just look at the vast amount of CSM Codex threads about missing specific rules for Chaos Legions and even for Legion-specific individual wargear.

I'm also a little bemused at the sheer protests at the lack of FF information in THIS Codex. :wtf: Did anyone check the last Codex? THAT was a true travesty in this aspect. Have people already forgot the outcry then by White Scar, Salamanders and Raven Guard players?! In fact, IMHO opinion, the 4th ed. Codex was very much an inferior Codex in all aspects.

Furthermore, did any of the posters complaining about lack of sublists check the other recent Codeci? Where are the specific rules for the Craftworlds, Legions and the Ork Clans? That lack is a design philosophy. You may like or not, but singling out that aspect of the SM Codex is rather silly IMHO. For the record, I do like this philosophy, since it removes much cheese while still very much allowing for thematic armies (and I play Eldar and Space Marines, so I should know!).

That being said, I do wonder what Iron Hands has done to GW...Strangely no one has mentioned it yet, but didn't anyone wonder why the IH of all FF Chapters did not even get a blurb for themselves, let alone a special character? I do understand if IH players feel robbed - why the heck did GW not eliminate one of the multitude of UM specials to at least give all FF Chapters one :mad:

IJW
20-10-2008, 11:33
Static artillery is more of an IG thing than a SM thing, so the Thunderfire isn't thematically appropriate, IMO.
I don't really see a problem with the Thunderfire Cannon as it's self-propelled artillery rather than static artillery. Also, as others have mentioned, it's a nice reference to past equipment such as Thudd Guns.

Brucopeloso
20-10-2008, 11:44
Here is my 2 pence worth.
Disclaimer: I own and play several different armies including SM

1) I do not like the idea of SC to alter the force organization chart. Actually I do not like the idea of SCs in general and having so many of them in a single codex and being able to mix and match them regardless of any fluff seems a bit too much.

2) I found the fluff really irritating. To clarify: having Marneus Calgar killing an avatar or marines doing heroic stuff is ok and typical of any codex. What bothered me is the quality (or lack thereof) of the writing and the excessive focus on Ultramarines. "The Ultramarines are what any other chapter aspires to be" went a bit too far IMHO.

3) From a gaming point of view the codex was not needed: SW, DE, Guard, Inquisition etc. all badly needed a codex, SM didn't. Ok I understand the financial need but I found it irritating nonetheless.

Archangel_Ruined
20-10-2008, 18:08
They perhaps needed one for balance purposes, the old list combined with 5th could be used to devastating effect in the hands of power gamers, but I agree that other armies needed one far more. I still can't see what the problem with thud guns is, it's a weapon platform that allows one techmarine to deny large areas of ground to on coming troops, so neither a resource drain or a liability in a defensive role. I see it as being perfectly fluffy, akin to the SAS and so forth using mortars to defend their extraction points, it allows one person to lay down massive amounts of fire power and funnel oncoming attackers into the weapon arcs of their comrades. Sounds pretty marine like to me.

Blacula
20-10-2008, 18:10
yeh screw the smurfs! the imperial fists are the most loyal chapter and come from terra! Any point of digatal weapons against nid swarms xD.

I think the fluff is good but unclear on scouts, i think it should be a promotion to tactical marine from a scout, they wouldnt take away his armour!

Archangel_Ruined
20-10-2008, 18:29
I think the explanation of a marines progression was one of the best parts of the book, it made sense in that weird fictional way GW are so good at when they're on form.

x-esiv-4c
20-10-2008, 18:32
I have many issues with the codex. I will echo that all the Ultramarine propaganda is fairly tiring along with the needless fluff injections of a handful of marines downing a craftworld etc etc.

What bugs me the most however, are the new units. I love seeing new things added to the game but the sternguard and vanguard seem pointless to me.

Spacemarines are spearhead specialists, each marines is meant to be an elite "tankmotron of Deth!" (well...according to the fluff). Now we have the sternguard show up and they take the role of "The SupAR ElITE!". Following this trend, I will promise you that in the 6th edition codex, marines will have "Uberguard Terminators" and a single one of them can destroy entire planets!

Archangel_Ruined
20-10-2008, 18:37
They had those anyway, until 5th toned down assault cannon wielding turbo nutters...

hiveminion
20-10-2008, 18:50
Spacemarines are spearhead specialists, each marines is meant to be an elite "tankmotron of Deth!" (well...according to the fluff). Now we have the sternguard show up and they take the role of "The SupAR ElITE!". Following this trend, I will promise you that in the 6th edition codex, marines will have "Uberguard Terminators" and a single one of them can destroy entire planets!

There have always been Space Marine Veterans, the only thing that's changed is that they now have more defined roles in the game.

I'm not discounting your prediction of the Uberguard Terminators though, I'd love to see rules for Honour Guard in Terminator Armour myself.:cool:

Kaihlik
20-10-2008, 19:03
If it can't be mounted on a Rhino chassis, it doesn't belong in a SM chapter's inventory - as it happens, I think it'd look great mounted on a Rhino, but it isn't. Just as a side note it does look really good mounted on a Rhino. One of the staff at my local GW has put one on a Razorback and it looks awsome, he plans on using it as a counts as Vindicator in normal games and he is considering writing an Datasheet for Apocalypse.

Archangel_Ruined
20-10-2008, 19:10
You could always just hitch it to the back of a rhino, it's perfectly mobile. I can imagine that it would look the mutts nuts on top of one though.

Blacula
20-10-2008, 20:08
We are talking about a thunderfire cannon right?

malisteen
21-10-2008, 01:32
Overall, I like the codex. Yes, several things are pretty poorly balanced, but that's the case for all GW material, and will continue to be the case until they make playtesting a serious part of their development process (compare the testing that goes into MtG). Until that time, it doesn't matter if GW codeces are streamlined to the point of emaciated skeletons like Eldar or Chaos or bloated to bursting like the new Orks or Space Marines, they're all going to be poorly balanced messes in terms of game design. I mean, consider Eldar: super streamlined, yet for years the terror of the tournament scene as unkillable falcons dansed over everyone and their dog delivering pinpoint strikes of harlies and fire dragons. Or Chaos: Super streamlined, yet still full of broken options, whether far too good (lash) or just outright terrible (possessed). If the trade was "options and special rules" for "a well tuned game balanced for competetive play" then I might be down for that. But that's not what those streamlined codeces gave us.

In my mind, if the rules of the game are going to be horribly unbalanced anyway, to the point that the competetive player might as well look elsewhere, then at least give me a boatload of options to play with, so I can have some fun putting my army together and playing with it. I've all but dropped 40k entirely since the new Chaos Marine book came out, and it's not because my army isn't competetive anymore - I can make a plenty competetive list. It's because the book, and each of the units and options in it, is just painfully dull.

I'm not upset about the new Ork and SM codeces. Why should I begrudge those players for having codeces that I like better then mine? The new Ork and SM codeces (along with the recent Army Books in Fantasy), instead have me hopeful. Not that I'll win any games in the near future (I probably won't, those lists are hard, even when they aren't being cheesed out, and I don't run the lash), but rather that when the next Chaos Marine codex is released somewhere down the line, that at least I'll be able to have fun playing 40k again.

Who knows, maybe they'll throw some mutants and cultists in there. Maybe chosen will be cooler. The next lead designer for Chaos Marines would be starting in the right place is they took the current Marine Codex and the new Warriors of Chaos Army Book as their primary inspiration, and left all the old chaos Codeces, including the current one, in the dust of the past.

cailus
21-10-2008, 02:25
I don't really see a problem with the Thunderfire Cannon as it's self-propelled artillery rather than static artillery. Also, as others have mentioned, it's a nice reference to past equipment such as Thudd Guns.

Erm, I would not call the Thinderfire Cannon a self-propelled artillery piece. I mean what is that top speed of it? Also it still requires someone to lug ammunition and its crew isn't mounted on it.

You see, self propelled artillery can move quickly and redeploy quickly. That's its big advantage. The Basilisk and Whirlwind are self-propelled artillery.

The rationale behind the Thunderfire is that is meant to be used for rough terrain where traditional SP Artie can't get to. It's actually a poor rationale because Marine Devastators are a lot more mobile, a lot less vulnerable and can field considerable man-packed firepower (e.g. heavy bolters, plasma cannons).

The Thunderfire Cannon doesn't really make any thematic sense for Marines who are meant to be a quick strike force.

I also think that Broadside Battlesuits are not inline with Ta tactical doctrines (i.e. mobile warfare).

However GW's knowledge of military matters is extremely limited - it's basically a bunch of nerds who have seen Star Wars and read Dune and made a game out of it. The game is also developing into less of a wargame and more a Dice Rolling Game With Miniatures.

SniperDan84
21-10-2008, 03:15
That's not what I'm saying, I'm saying I think it's unnecessary for GW to publish rules for using Raven Guard/White Scars/Salamanders when those chapters are perfectly representable by the current codex, even without having to use the special characters...

I'm sorry but I have to disagree. I have always been against a "1 codex to make all variations". There are plenty of people who play to simply win, and in doing so, will always mix and match the best of all the sub armies to find the best list regardless of whether it is fluffy or not.

To take you're philosophy to the extreme, why doesn't GW just come out with 1 codex to rule them all. It has every army they ever make, all of their units with their special rules, all of their fluff, all of their modelling tips, etc. It still meets you're statement above. You can make all the lists given that one codex, are you against this philosophy? Like I said, it's taking it to the extreme, but you have to ask yourself, did they draw their line at the right place?

Yes you can make a salamander or white scars army from the list, but absolutely nothing is stopping you from making a force of both of them too. Ultimately this is what will happen. My best example is the latest Eldar codex. Pathfinders are supposed to be a rare Alaitoc only thing, but since everyone can get them, they do. On forum lists, in tourneys, at a GW hobby center, and in LGS, it has been rare to see a non-Alaitoc list containing rangers, without a pathfinder selection. I find it disheartening when I spend a lot of time putting together a thoughtful fluffy list, only to be facing the same army, comprised of every option in the book, yet ripping through any sort of basic fluff. I know some people are going to say, well just play with different people. Sadly, I don't have many people around me who play, and thus in the position to play whomever I can find.

A lot of what I'm hoping for is wishful thinking, as it is quite hard to make all of these sublists, while maintaining balance (and a fair amount of options). But isn't that the point of a lot of these discussions, to find out how to make the game even better, and to get our desires out there, so over time it might make progress towards those goals?

Imperialis_Dominatus
21-10-2008, 03:38
Way I see it, you can have your dozens of sublists, variation, and three-edition-long-development cycle, or you can have a tourney-style, balanced game with a (hopefully) shorter development cycle. You can't have it both ways.

TechnoBarbarian
21-10-2008, 04:03
To take you're philosophy to the extreme, why doesn't GW just come out with 1 codex to rule them all. It has every army they ever make, all of their units with their special rules, all of their Fluff, all of their modelling tips, etc. It still meets you're statement above. You can make all the lists given that one codex, are you against this philosophy? Like I said, it's taking it to the extreme, but you have to ask yourself, did they draw their line at the right place?
Why not include all the rules in one book? :D I hate to say it, but having all rules available in one place and accessible to all gamers would cut through a lot of the garbage I see with local gamers squabbling over rules and who has the right to see them for their respective armies. :eek: But then again, I wouldn't have this lovely, but nearly useless, collection of codices spanning many armies and several editions.

Warforger
21-10-2008, 04:19
Ahhhh but then GW would make less money :)

EmperorEternalXIX
21-10-2008, 04:43
Yeah...shame on companies that try to make money...

==Me==
21-10-2008, 05:01
Way I see it, you can have your dozens of sublists, variation, and three-edition-long-development cycle, or you can have a tourney-style, balanced game with a (hopefully) shorter development cycle. You can't have it both ways.

Ideally we could. I'd love to see GW release the basic game and Codices, a well balanced and simple tourney-friendly system while at the same time releasing supplemental books (similar to Index Astartes and Imperial Armor) with all the lovely variation and fluff to be used for friendly games. That way we get a tight ruleset that appeals to tourney gamers and a cuddly, warm, fuzzy hugs tiem nao ruleset for the people more interested in fluff, crazy combinations, and a lot of variety between lists (at the expense of overall balance).

SniperDan84
21-10-2008, 05:16
Ahhhh but then GW would make less money :)

Lol, not necessarily. They could simply charge more for the Uber-codex. It could be the same price as 6 codexes. They'd be making money on all the people own less than 6 armies, and less on those who have more than 6...which i think there are more of the former than the latter, thus more money!...OR even worse yet, they could combine this book with the rulebook, make an epic rulebook which they charge somewhere like $200 for... :eek:

To ==me==:
I think even more ideal would be a merger of those two. A ruleset that is both tourney friendly by its intuitiveness, but yet provides the near limitless possibilities for different armies. Obviously though, your ideal solution is a hell of a lot more likely to come about than my fantasy of one...

Archangel_Ruined
21-10-2008, 22:39
If it cost that much you'd never get new starters to the hobby and it would stagnate and die within a decade. That's before you get to the reprints required throughout the cyclical army developments. I know it's a little condescending, but you really don't understand business models if you think an idea like that is anything other than corporate suicide. Anyway, this is wandering off topic.

malisteen
22-10-2008, 04:30
Way I see it, you can have your dozens of sublists, variation, and three-edition-long-development cycle, or you can have a tourney-style, balanced game with a (hopefully) shorter development cycle. You can't have it both ways.

You can't have it the latter way, regardless. Lest you forget, the 'streamlined' codeces weren't any better balanced (falcon, quins, lash, or for underpowered posessed). 'Streamlined' didn't even mean a faster realease schedule.

Shas'o Zor'bas
22-10-2008, 13:03
Just because something is horrendously powerful doesn't mean it should be overpowered as an army. It means that the individual units should be very powerful, but also very expensive. It doesn't mean they should be more powerful as an army. 2000pts of army X should be equal to 2000pts of army Y, even if each individual dude in army X can easily kill 10 in Y, Y may just have a hell of a lot more people.

Yes, I agree with this but that's where the new codex focuses. We see 5 marines with a cost of 90 pts and +16 for every additional model but every marine is well armed with both a bolter and a bolt pistol as well as frags and kraks.

Haven't played against them with the new codex though. I think it'll be fun;)

Lord Solar Plexus
22-10-2008, 14:02
I completely agree with 99 percent of what Grand Master Raziel has said.


yeah, who´d have thought after Codex: Tyranids, Codex: Eldar, Codex: Chaos (both) and Codex: Orks? such a radical change of pace ^^


You mean the Nids which are defeated in two turns by wiping out what fragile troops they have?

You mean the Eldar whose SMF has been taken away?

You mean the Orks who run away at the first sight of a Hellhound or Redeemer?

Now I'm not saying any of these is a weak race, far from it. However, whatever they have going for them, the Marines can top.



Hardly a new concept. Obliterators and to a lesser degree Noise Marines have had this option for quite some time.


That's exactly the point. Perhaps you remember how much Oblits were hated, how little tactics and thinking they required, and how they dominated the tourney scene. No list was complete without Oblits. Then they got toned down to some extent, and now we have the exact same situation with Sternguard. Again.



As for the new Codex being claimed to make marines too strong: It´s a new Codex, and so prone to be whined about, nothing new here.


While there is a grain of truth to this, I don't think you can ignore the concrete aspects that have been critiziced by so general a statement. Stormshields, magic bullets, magic flamers, and special characters that are not so special are all the kind of "one tool to rule them all" items.



After reading the background parts of the Marine Codex, especially the Ultramarines stuff, I can pass the bitching about it as the usual omnipresent background noise of Warseers vast hatez-Marinez crew.


Nothing could be farther from the truth. I cannot fathom how you could come to such a conclusion other than by voluntarily ignoring what has been written here, especially since you do not address the substantial and well-argued points that have been raised. Grand Master Raziel a marine-hater (I do play marines from time to time as well)? Please read the OP and say that again, will you?

Btw, brushing these considerations aside and attributing them to "marine hate" is just as fair as calling you a biased SM fanboi. Not that I would ever resort to such low behaviour...

EmperorEternalXIX
22-10-2008, 21:37
That's ridiculous, Plexus. Those three armies you mentioned are probably the three most capable of dealing with the new marines. Regardlessthe Space Marines are the first codex for the new edition, TRULY -- this is so with every edition. So, here is a thought...hmm...maybe, just maybe, this is going to be a trend for ALL the armies, eh?

My favorite gripe about the new marine codex is that they win too much in the fluff. Refresh my memory: how many codex releases have detailed stories of innumerable losses and failures in their fluff?

Acting like armies like Nids, Orks, and Eldar can't deal with these new marines is hilarious. The new marines can't do anything that anyone else can't do:

Infiltrating units out the wazoo? Nids and guard can do it with twice the model count, probably

Deep striking units that can assault? Chaos has a monstrous creature that can do it, and actually NEVER scatters. He's also an eternal warrior with 4 wounds and T6, if I recall.

High T models with good armor saves? Necrons are the same thing with better guns, and can fly around the boad and come back to life.

Complaints about free weapons? The entire Tau army gets free str5 guns by default.

The Storm Shield thing? That's a joke in and of itself. A five man squad with 3+ saves? Oh no, what ever will we do? You know, when I take any OTHER five man footslogger squad with 3+ saves, they die pretty easily to volume of fire...

Sternguard? Sheesh, people act like they never had to kill a squad of marines with no invuls and 1 wound per model before...


After reading the background parts of the Marine Codex, especially the Ultramarines stuff, I can pass the bitching about it as the usual omnipresent background noise of Warseers vast hatez-Marinez crew. This is absolutely 100% true for most complaints I read. This entire place either hates marines or ignores them. When I first joined I had many an argument about the "Fairness" of the assault cannon...and how, since you could get cover saves from it, it was "fairer" than CC rending attacks. All anybody wanted to do was talk about how I and anyone else on that side of the argument was a retarded 12 year old subscribing to GW's alleged "BS."

Subsequently I have noticed that I am one of very few vocal marine players on this forum. I can see why. Every other day someone makes a thread of why they hate us. By the end of the 5th ed codex cycle I'm sure there will be much scarier things to worry about then a 400 point vanguard squad or Kayvaan Shrike's rules. I can't believe that this codex release, which shows the game will move in a positive and powerful direction overall, is being met with such disdain.

That being said, I have always loved a challenge. I guess people who are hating on this codex would just prefer to win.

Kalec
22-10-2008, 22:23
You mean the Nids which are defeated in two turns by wiping out what fragile troops they have?

You mean the Eldar whose SMF has been taken away?

You mean the Orks who run away at the first sight of a Hellhound or Redeemer?

Now I'm not saying any of these is a weak race, far from it. However, whatever they have going for them, the Marines can top.


Nid troops are easily defeated? They seem to last a lot longer when half a dozen monstrous creatures are standing in front of them.

Eldar losing SMF? True, the rule is gone, but now they get cover saves, which can be fortuned. Thats right: falcons with rerollable 4++ saves! If 3++ saves are unstoppable, then what can be done about a rerollable 4++ save? Forfeit, perhaps?

Orks running from a hellhound? After 20 casualties, maybe. Orks running from a redeemer? Nah, they'll run closer, so the power claw can go to work.

I wish marines could top rerollable 4++ saves, 6 MC's in a single list, and powerfists with 30 ablative wounds.Then they might be as powerful as you seem to think they are.

Archangel_Ruined
22-10-2008, 22:39
Marines are that powerful, I'll take 1500pts of them against 1500pts of anything else, but that's because it is a vaguely balanced game. I'm not going to lie and say it's perfect, it isn't, but it's not bad and it's the best Warhammer 40,000 game GW sell at the moment... Also, comparing marines to cherry picked units from other armies is problematic, I can pick a 1500pt list from any codex to massacre a standard marine army, but then I can pick 1500pts of marines to do the same to any other standard army. Tailored examples are just too easy.

It's a good list, but it isn't overpowered. I don't think it's as scary as the ork list, and I wouldn't say that's broken either, I think GW have actually done rather a good job on this one.

Vaktathi
22-10-2008, 22:45
Deep striking units that can assault? Chaos has a monstrous creature that can do it, and actually NEVER scatters. He's also an eternal warrior with 4 wounds and T6, if I recall.to be fair, it kills off a model, often a rather important one, when it arrives.



Complaints about free weapons? The entire Tau army gets free str5 guns by default. Umm...I fail to see how that is correlated in any way, but when you compare a Fire Warrior to an SM, sure it has an S5 gun, they also are T3, S3, I2, WS2, BS3, 4+sv, and can't take anything but that single weapon so they don't have the flexibility of an SM squad either. Not to mention that even with S5 guns, basic space marines are still outkilling Tau in a shooting war at 12-25" 2-1, and lets be honest that extra 6" on the pulse rifle isn't all that huge or used all that often.



The Storm Shield thing? That's a joke in and of itself. A five man squad with 3+ saves? Oh no, what ever will we do? You know, when I take any OTHER five man footslogger squad with 3+ saves, they die pretty easily to volume of fire... Yeah, but they usually don't have a 2+ armor save on top of that and are dropped by plasma guns and AP2 ordnance rather quickly, they aren't getting a normal SM save against anti-tank and heavy ordnance weapons. 3+inv termi's are walking through double the AP2 fire of normal termi's, for 40pts with a thunderhammer, keeping the 4+ but making it usable against shooting was probably more reasonable in all honesty.



Sternguard? Sheesh, people act like they never had to kill a squad of marines with no invuls and 1 wound per model before... To be fair, you have to admit they are...very good. Being able to counter anything that isn't a vehicle in any situation is very powerful, and may perhaps be a little too so, although I personally am still on the fence here, I'm hoping to see them around a little longer before making a real judgement, the ability to ignore cover saves is really the big concern for me. And they can be taken as Scoring units with a not too terribly expensive HQ (relative to its abilities and benefits)



When I first joined I had many an argument about the "Fairness" of the assault cannon...and how, since you could get cover saves from it, it was "fairer" than CC rending attacks. The old assault cannon had a lot of problems, cover saves alone on a weapon that could move and fire on every platform it could be taken on isn't much of a compensation, especially against vehicles where it was more effective than lascannons against heavy armor. Now its much more reasonable.


I can't believe that this codex release, which shows the game will move in a positive and powerful direction overall, is being met with such disdain.
besides the terrible writing in the book (and you have to admit, much of it reads like a bad fanfic), it's not all necessarily about the codex itself, but about the treatment relative to other armies. DA generally had their costs on just about everything except Rhino's increased, Chaos...well, yeah Chaos, after those two and then doing a complete 180* with an army that many players felt was over-supported relative to other armies, especially when other armies were still waiting for much more needed updates, can irritate people obviously.




That being said, I have always loved a challenge. I guess people who are hating on this codex would just prefer to win. That's totally not an overgeneralized and baseless viewpoint:rolleyes:



In any case, if one can't see why some people would feel irritated by this codex given the previous two Marine books released and the reaction to them, or realize that there are some very valid balance concerns with this book, even if some of it is overhyped, and that SM's have gotten a disproportionate amount of attention when other armies really do need it more, then you may want to take a step back and take a good long look at some of the other codex's. If you honestly believe that there is nothing wrong at all with the SM book, in any way, then you may need more experience with other armies. Even as a huge fan of the 3.5 ed Chaos codex, I can realize it had huge flaws and issues, especially relative to other armies released around the same time.

Fixer
23-10-2008, 00:06
I've seen sternguard used in a couple of games now. Sure, they're a versatile unit but their cost/survivability is really low. It only takes one AP3 template to wipe out a unit costing nearly 300 points.

For just a couple more points you could get a full squad of chaos terminators with combi bolters.

It's possible that they could be overpowered with Kantor backing them up (3 attacks each basic? Ouch) but having seen one Ork Vs Crimson Fists game where the Orks walked over the Sternguard after Kantor took a powerclaw to the face, I'm still going to reserve judgement on that.

They really do seem quite well priced for what they do. Elite close range anti infantry fire in a single point at the cost of suvivability. If you asked someone to pay just a couple more points each for them you'd probably never see them on the tabletop.

Imperialis_Dominatus
23-10-2008, 00:19
You can't have it the latter way, regardless. Lest you forget, the 'streamlined' codeces weren't any better balanced (falcon, quins, lash, or for underpowered posessed). 'Streamlined' didn't even mean a faster realease schedule.

Well, just because GW can't do it properly doesn't mean it can't be done. But I concede the point for now.

Leo
23-10-2008, 01:12
You mean the Nids which are defeated in two turns by wiping out what fragile troops they have?

You mean the Eldar whose SMF has been taken away?

You mean the Orks who run away at the first sight of a Hellhound or Redeemer?

Now I'm not saying any of these is a weak race, far from it. However, whatever they have going for them, the Marines can top.


yes ,yes, all those poor armies that now are easily swept aside by the new Space Marines really make me shed tears of sadness. I was however referring to someone who was apparently irritated that GW releases a Codex that is perceived as too strong by himself.
Surely one with a postcount as high as yours should notice how the release of Codexes that apparently shatter the whole metagame is not really new or surprising, right?
When Tyranids, Eldar etc were released there was no fifth Edition and no new Marines, Monstrous Critters were still scoring, skimmers were still getting their fabulous rule and there was no Redeemer Land Raider to totally annihilate entire Orc squads, thus this stuff was still pretty good.

Not agreeing that Marines are evil incarnate was of course a bad move on my part, my apology.



That's exactly the point. Perhaps you remember how much Oblits were hated, how little tactics and thinking they required, and how they dominated the tourney scene. No list was complete without Oblits. Then they got toned down to some extent, and now we have the exact same situation with Sternguard. Again.

yeah, I remember very well. Sternguard still has a counter in vehicles and monstrous critters which their fancy Bolters wont scare that much. Oblits on the other hand can absolutely wreck that stuff, too. However I really don´t want to get into which unit is more broken: Sternguard is nasty and flexible and all. Agreed. Especially to my armies. But there is worse stuff around. And I will refrain from jugding them at least for the time being.




While there is a grain of truth to this, I don't think you can ignore the concrete aspects that have been critiziced by so general a statement. Stormshields, magic bullets, magic flamers, and special characters that are not so special are all the kind of "one tool to rule them all" items.

Actually I can absolutely ignore them. As I said, these arguments are brought up against every new Codex and are often proven wrong after a few years of actually playing.
If in a few years Marines dominate tournaments up and down the globe, then I might agree. But until then, all this talk is only so much hot air.
The situation with the special characters I really agree with but it´s now a new problem. It existed ever since the Codex:Necrons.




Nothing could be farther from the truth. I cannot fathom how you could come to such a conclusion other than by voluntarily ignoring what has been written here, especially since you do not address the substantial and well-argued points that have been raised. Grand Master Raziel a marine-hater (I do play marines from time to time as well)? Please read the OP and say that again, will you?

I wasn´t directly responding to Raziel post, or I would have quoted him directly.
With my post I was referring to the comments about the background part of the Codex. Not only those of Raziel but pretty much everyone. I just found this attitude laughable and I believe I said, why.
To be fair, out of all the many 'omfglolzIHATETEHSTOOPITSMURFSroflzomghaxxor' threads that circulate Warseer today (or any day) I picked this one not because it´s particularly bad but because I consider Raziel to be one of the most reasonable and level-headed members on this board, so his negative review, while kind of well written and low on the flame-scale came as a big surprise to me.
His other point about Sternguard I did adress, as you noticed.
I don´t have an opinion about the Stormshields yet, they seem very good, but I´ll first want to play against them. There are only so many elite choices in an army and every Assault Terminator squad is one less Sternguard squad.

He also didn´t like the Thunderfire Cannon which is fair (neither do I), but I cannot begrudge a Codex to have too many units. That´s just unreasonable especially since it doesn´t appear to be that hot ingame. One can always ignore units that do not seem to fit, right?
I know for sure that there won´t be any warclowns in my army ever, but I don´t think they should remove them from the Codex because other people seem to like them.



Btw, brushing these considerations aside and attributing them to "marine hate" is just as fair as calling you a biased SM fanboi. Not that I would ever resort to such low behaviour...
I didn´t only claim that it´s 'marine hate' but also 'new Codex panic'. Ultimately it´s either one and oftentimes both.
Now I enjoy discussing new stuff as much as the next guy and I realize that this is what message boards are for but the 'discussion' of the marine Codex has been somewhat flamey even by Warseer standards.
The fact that I responded in Raziel thread when I largely targeted other posts was probably a mistake, at least that much I agree to.

Redrivertears
23-10-2008, 08:02
Regardlessthe Space Marines are the first codex for the new edition, TRULY -- this is so with every edition. So, here is a thought...hmm...maybe, just maybe, this is going to be a trend for ALL the armies, eh?

The "Union-Struggling-To-Ensure-That-People-Dont-Forget-Daemons" will be sending you a sternly worded letter soon! :)

Space Marines are the second codex for the new edition.

-Redrvertears-

Hrafn
23-10-2008, 08:34
You mean the Nids which are defeated in two turns by wiping out what fragile troops they have?

You mean the Eldar whose SMF has been taken away?

You mean the Orks who run away at the first sight of a Hellhound or Redeemer?.

Can you say this with a straight face? I am not entirely sure what your point is either - is it that SM are ZOMGTEHUBER or is it that the aforementioned armies are not only inherently weak but also so hated by GW that they nerf them into oblivion? :confused:
- Either way, the claim is bordering on the ridicilous, and, sorry to say it so bluntly, but very much an ecpression of the all-pervading Warseer Marinehate..
As other posters have already pointed out, all the armies you mention are quite well-equipped for taking on SM. Personally, I know I wouldn't mind with my Eldar. There is nothing in the new Codex which is not vulnerable to the same things as before, perhaps bar Assault Terminators which can't be as easily vaporized by the FireDragon/Farseer combo, but hey, they still die just as well to massed Shuriken Cannon/Scatter Laser fire :evilgrin:



Not agreeing that Marines are evil incarnate was of course a bad move on my part, my apology.

:D

The_Outsider
23-10-2008, 08:55
It is an alright codex but it hasn't really changed marines (nor have marines really changed since 3rd ed), it only give the army a few more options at doing what they could already do.

The thunderfire cannon is a very valuable addition as it adds some long range template death that isn't a whirlwind (though i'd take a whirlwind over a thunderfire cannon any day) - everything else is mostly paying extra points cost for a tad more power (sternguard are a good example, they can kill a tad more but are still 25 point mariens at the end of the day).

A list that could combat old marines can combat new marines - just expect a few more casualties.

StoogeKing
30-10-2008, 13:29
I think the SM codex is awesome. It is good from a thematic point and encourages more use of tacticals. I think that everyone is giving the codex a fair bit of un warranted flak. I always thought it was pretty unfair that a khorne lord got up to 18 attacks in one!!!! assault phase!!!!

I mean people are saying why do space marines get the same things as chaos or dark angels but for less points. Well its simple, chaos has been out of the imperium for what, 2 millennium! lol so obviously there stuff is going to be not as up to date as the present space marine, and the dark angels are a none codex chapter that keeps to itself so why would they benefit from the new codex’s stuff? They still have a kick ass CC chaplain so why complain? Sternguard should be given ‘magic bullets’ as they are masters of holding the gunline and static defenses who have proven their worth time and time again, also the space marine have been fighting against their enemies for millennia so you would think that they have made and tested many different bullet variations. They can also be killed pretty easily as well just form one round of good concentrated enemy fire. Vanguard have also risen and excelled in close combat and proven their worth time and time again so why wouldn’t they earn the right to have powerswords? And when deep striking you only really have a 33% chance of them landing in the right spot without getting killed. Termi’s not having magic bullets makes sense too because their in bloody terminator armour do they really need the bullets? CC termi’s were hardly ever used and if they were they were all dual lightning claw so the 3+ stormshield is great. Also it might be that they have developed the generator to be more powerful? The thundefire cannon makes great sense as it is a special weapon for a tech marine that would spend many long hours polishing the gun barrels haha and how the hell are you supposed to get a vindicator on top of a large mountain? It would simply be impractical. Special characters are somewhat ridiculous I will agree in the fact they can be included in any army but now they reflect the extremities of what their fluff makes them cracked up to be and maybe now I might actually have a chance at winning a CC against the evil Abbadon. I think its great all these things are here now and I hope they stay. Just try to be open to the things I guess.

Really 2 millennia is a very very very long time which the techmarines could have developed more advanced technology. It all really makes sense to me I don’t see how it doesn’t to all of use but I wouldn’t worry about it all the other armies will get some awesome as stuff soon im betting.

alex03
30-10-2008, 13:58
Yeah, as a marine player I have to wonder about what all the fuss is about. Everything in the list thats remotely good is somewhat overcosted IMO. 3+invulnrables on thunderhammer terminators does not make them gods, it really just might make them worth taking instead of the utter crap they were before.

I've got stomped by eldar so badly recently that I really had a good laugh at the whole eldar whinefest about the codex. Nothing says broken like an army that can not even be on the table for a whole turn of the game then have the whole army turn up next turn to smite you. Its like 4th edition victory conditions and scenario setup's are tailor made for easy eldar victories.

Oh, and the thunderfire is crap.

Vaktathi
30-10-2008, 14:58
Yeah, as a marine player I have to wonder about what all the fuss is about. Everything in the list thats remotely good is somewhat overcosted IMO. 3+invulnrables on thunderhammer terminators does not make them gods, it really just might make them worth taking instead of the utter crap they were before. For 40pts? A model wielding a better version of a powerfist that's still saving against plasma guns and powerfists on 3's isn't just a wee bit silly? Especially given current Wound Allocation where you can stick 2 guys in a squad with SS/TH and the rest with LC's, put all the plasma wounds on the SS guys and the normal ones on the LC's?

Be honest, for 40pts, its a little overboard. Compare a 5man TH/SS squad to a 5man CSM Tzeentch (for 4+inv) termi squad with PF's (closest thing to Powerfists) and they are far more expensive (47pts each) and lose their extra +1 if their icon dies. The TL Bolter probably isn't worth the extra 7pts.



Oh, and the thunderfire is crap.Crap? Nay, it's easy to take out, but you can just slap it in a 3+ cover (bolster defenses still works with its Techmarine) in a corner and many people won't bother to shoot at it, and its throwing out more effective firepower than an anti-infantry predator with its 4 blast templates.

Is it super-awesome amazingly powerful? No. Does it have its place and some potential? Yes. If I played SM's, I definitely think about taking them, probably ahead of just about everything else but dreads (with a Master of the Forge) or Land Raiders.


I think the SM codex is awesome. It is good from a thematic point and encourages more use of tacticals. I think that everyone is giving the codex a fair bit of un warranted flak. I always thought it was pretty unfair that a khorne lord got up to 18 attacks in one!!!! assault phase!!!! Remember that Khorne Lord is wounding himself and doing nothing 1/3rd of the time, and the chances of *18* attacks is 1/36.

archondan
30-10-2008, 15:01
Haha, like you mean Daemon Army or a Space Marine Drop Army? Any army at this point in the game can hold everything off the board unless restricted by the deployment rules.

Daemons and Space Marine drop armies must deploy half the army on turn one, while Elder are still affected by reserve rolls. Of course these rolls can be modified by taking 2 Autarchs but is still a roll that can fail.

Each army has its pros can cons now with the whole denial tactic.

forbin
30-10-2008, 15:18
hmm, I wonder how well this codex will play with 4th ed :)

I 'll buy one at the weekend and try it out , or just wait until 6th ed is out , I have time on my side ...........

Forbin

measure 15 minutes ? use both hour glasses , when the 7 minutes on finishes you have 4 minutes of the 11 minute one left , turn that over when finished and wait again ......

Helveticus
30-10-2008, 15:21
Yes, as a marine player, Storm Shields are probably a wee bit too strong.. 4+ all the time would probably be better.. even 4+ shooting, 3+ close combat would be better.

Thud
30-10-2008, 15:57
People who've seen me post know that I'm not usually prone to fanboi-ism (now there's an understatement if there ever was one).

However, I like the new Marine codex. A lot, in fact. Except for the fluff section, obviously, but I've never bought a codex for the fluff anyway, that's why we have Black Library and teh interwebz, so I don't mind. The best thing about it is how flexible it is; thematically, I mean. I love themed armies, and this codex let's me build a Marine army in any way I want it. Brilliant.

And when it comes to the units discussed throughout the thread, here are my pennies:

-Sternguard: Overpowered? Hardly. Sure, they are very flexible in being able to shoot down whatever comes their way. On the other hand, though, they're no harder than a Tactical Squad and twice as expensive.

-Assault Terminators: Oh come on. They're hard as nails, but let's not get carried away here. They're slow, they have no fire power whatsoever and they're expensive. "But Thud," you say, "they're only forty points a pop!" Yes, they are. But the minimum amount you can field is five. And those five can hardly take out an opposing army on their own, can they? Actually, your opponent could easily just ignore them altogether. But if you get some more of them, they are starting to become more of a pain in your opponent's side. But then how much are you spending on these guys? A third of your army? Half your army? Invested in ten-fifteen guys... Come on, hardly the end of the world.

-Thunderfire Cannon: It's not unfluffy, damnit! 40k didn't just pop into existence one fateful October afternoon in 1998. 3rd edition has prequels. Believe it or not.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
30-10-2008, 17:10
I agree with Thud nearly in every aspect.

And about terminators - those are only terminators that need to be taken out with weaker weapons. yes, on average you must deal 30 wounds ... but hey, it's not that hard to avoid them.

Imperialis_Dominatus
31-10-2008, 17:36
I always thought it was pretty unfair that a khorne lord got up to 18 attacks in one!!!! assault phase!!!!

Way to stress the unbelievably lucky best possible outcome while glossing over for great justice the likely possibility of fail and AIDS inherent in using the Bloodfeeder. Read its description again and do some head-math. The Lord will wound himself ridiculously often with that weapon.


I mean people are saying why do space marines get the same things as chaos or dark angels but for less points. Well its simple, chaos has been out of the imperium for what, 2 millennium!

Ten millenna.


lol so obviously there stuff is going to be not as up to date as the present space marine

Up to date? Imperials aren't exactly into R&D as we know it. Ever hear about the Adeptus Mechanicus and how they do things? It's kind of a big deal. And Chaos does do R&D in some cases (not being bound by the tenets of the Omnissiah does a great deal for them) and has the Warp, so if anything they should be better off.


and the dark angels are a none codex chapter that keeps to itself so why would they benefit from the new codex’s stuff?

Non-Codex? They're about as faithful to Guilleman's work as the Ultramarines themselves (who have a few deviations from it as well). Blood Angels are similar.


CC termi’s were hardly ever used and if they were they were all dual lightning claw so the 3+ stormshield is great. Also it might be that they have developed the generator to be more powerful?

4+ all the time would have been fine. 3+ is over the top.

And I repeat, Imperial tech doesn't work that way. Unless you can show me an STC, no. Negatory. Incorrect. Wrong.


maybe now I might actually have a chance at winning a CC against the evil Abbadon.

Nah.


Really 2 millennia is a very very very long time which the techmarines could have developed more advanced technology.

...need I repeat?


Yeah, as a marine player I have to wonder about what all the fuss is about. Everything in the list thats remotely good is somewhat overcosted IMO. 3+invulnrables on thunderhammer terminators does not make them gods, it really just might make them worth taking instead of the utter crap they were before.

But was 3+ absolutely necessary? Really? I think not. It's ridiculous. 4+ invulns are awesome. Just ask my Tzeentch Termies. 3+ is something I feel dirty and defiled taking.


that's why we have teh interwebz

Fixed.


-Assault Terminators: Oh come on. They're hard as nails, but let's not get carried away here. They're slow, they have no fire power whatsoever and they're expensive. "But Thud," you say, "they're only forty points a pop!" Yes, they are. But the minimum amount you can field is five. And those five can hardly take out an opposing army on their own, can they? Actually, your opponent could easily just ignore them altogether. But if you get some more of them, they are starting to become more of a pain in your opponent's side. But then how much are you spending on these guys? A third of your army? Half your army? Invested in ten-fifteen guys... Come on, hardly the end of the world.

Honestly not too relevant. It doesn't change the fact that 3+ invulns are something you shouldn't ever see (except cheating Eldar witches :rolleyes:). There are ways to get around their lack of mobility, getting shot up, lack of numbers, etc. Deep Strike, Land Raider (not terribly efficient but hey), etc. get around mobility. 200 points isn't that much in your standard army, you still have plenty of points to buy the necessities (Tac squads, eh?), and a few Termies for numbers won't kill you. They make up for lack of firepower by tearing **** up when they hit combat.

And I repeat, 3+ invulnerables. Everything else I would be fine with- a buff to Storm Shields I would be fine with, a little tweak to make it work against firepower. But now, a Storm Shield (relatively speaking, a mass-produced item) is better than a Rosarius or an Iron Halo (holy relics that stop Lascannons from frying my Chapter Master). Screw. That.

Thud
31-10-2008, 18:42
Fixed.

Hehe. Touché. :p


Honestly not too relevant. It doesn't change the fact that 3+ invulns are something you shouldn't ever see (except cheating Eldar witches :rolleyes:).

Well, why not? It's kinda like the Monolith (except it's not ;)). They are a pain to take out, but you could instead just focus your fire at something else.



There are ways to get around their lack of mobility, getting shot up, lack of numbers, etc. Deep Strike, Land Raider (not terribly efficient but hey), etc. get around mobility.

Except for the Land Raider, which more than doubles the point cost for the unit, these are all valid points, yes. But deep striking is not that great for Assault Terminators. You scatter and you can't assault on the turn you deep strike, so it's not the end of the world. As for lack of numbers; armies with few models tend to be quite mobile, though, don't you agree?


200 points isn't that much in your standard army, you still have plenty of points to buy the necessities (Tac squads, eh?), and a few Termies for numbers won't kill you.

You're right. But then again, I'd contend that only five Assault Terminators won't kill the opponent either. ;)


They make up for lack of firepower by tearing **** up when they hit combat.

Well, they only have two attacks each, so they're not about to slaughter everything in sight in one assault phase, are they? And they still strike last, so against a full Ork squad (which is about the same point cost, and less even if you don't include the Nob) they have to withstand a gazillion attacks before hitting back. There should be room for a failed 2+ save in there somewhere.


And I repeat, 3+ invulnerables. Everything else I would be fine with- a buff to Storm Shields I would be fine with, a little tweak to make it work against firepower. But now, a Storm Shield (relatively speaking, a mass-produced item) is better than a Rosarius or an Iron Halo (holy relics that stop Lascannons from frying my Chapter Master). Screw. That.

It is a little... "new". Absolutely. But my point is that Assault Terminators aren't the gods of everything just because of it. You'll just have to find a different approach than pointing some Plasma Cannons towards them.

Imperialis_Dominatus
31-10-2008, 18:54
Except for the Land Raider, which more than doubles the point cost for the unit, these are all valid points, yes. But deep striking is not that great for Assault Terminators. You scatter and you can't assault on the turn you deep strike, so it's not the end of the world. As for lack of numbers; armies with few models tend to be quite mobile, though, don't you agree?

Like I said, Land Raiders aren't that efficient. But say you do have a mobile, small army. Grab a teleport homer, Rhino it up near the weak points in enemy armies, and bring the pain. All in sync with the rest of your army of course. I know, I've done it.


You're right. But then again, I'd contend that only five Assault Terminators won't kill the opponent either. ;)

Everything counts in large amounts, like Momma always said. Bring more, or barring that, send in a squad of Tacs to support them/send them to support the Tacs.


Well, they only have two attacks each, so they're not about to slaughter everything in sight in one assault phase, are they? And they still strike last, so against a full Ork squad (which is about the same point cost, and less even if you don't include the Nob) they have to withstand a gazillion attacks before hitting back. There should be room for a failed 2+ save in there somewhere.

Sure, but sending Marines into combat against Orks and other suchlike isn't terribly optimal. I try to send them into combat where it counts instead. Orks get wasted by firepower if you can shoot them up before they shoot you up; if I have to meet them in hand to hand I attempt to engage them with a superior force (i.e. mob of Orks gets mobbed by Marines). Soften them up with firepower and nail them with better men and they'll drop, dice gods be willing.

Granted, it's easier against other MEQ armies because you don't often have the opportunity to be outnumbered by critters that are twice as good as a Guardsman but just as cheap.


You'll just have to find a different approach than pointing some Plasma Cannons towards them.

For me, it's not even about finding new ways to waste them. I can do that. It's the principle. ;)

Temprus
31-10-2008, 19:56
You're right. But then again, I'd contend that only five Assault Terminators won't kill the opponent either. ;)

True but thanks to they way SW mix with the new codex, you can have SS and AC thanks to the Wolf Guard for pretty cheap to have some Terminators that MIGHT kill the opponent at a distance for not too much more. :angel: Sadly they get no power attacks though so it is not as assaulty as the Assault Terminators (I suppose you can give less shooty weapons to the none AC guys ;) ).

Warforger
31-10-2008, 20:37
Like wow People are saying 2+/3+ deepstriking squads are not a big deal and easy to ignore/kill. A Vanguard Veteran with Thunder hammer and Storm Shield costs more then a assault terminator with Thunder Hammer and Storm shield. Sure out shooting them with weapons that don't ignore there armor is effective, as against EVERY other unit in 40k, but when shooting plasma against them, you expect termi's to be in hell not laughing it off.

Durath
31-10-2008, 20:56
Some of the minor points I don't quite agree with, or don't see as urgent as to post about, but the majority of what you are saying I agree with.

The down-shift in design philosophy really has me put off. We get that GW wants to limit customized armies, and that's fine, but then they controvert that with this book and the crazy number of completely new options, and changes to core rules.

Add to that, these rules not being retroactive with the cross-over units (like Land Raiders and Machine Spirit) in existing deviant Space Marine armies and Chaos makes the game less than logical, and disruptive to play. (Try explaining to a young person that his DA Land Raider has to shoot at BS 2 with Machine Spirit, while the UM LR on another table is shooting at BS 4).

I like 5th edition a lot, and I really enjoyed what Apocalypse brought to the hobby. But this codex has really left a sour taste in my mouth, and honestly has me feeling "3rd-edition" about the game (might take a hiatus).

StoogeKing
02-11-2008, 07:42
Are SM really all that hard to kill? Assault termi's don't even come near to genestealers or harlequins. And 1/36 is the real stat but out of 8 rounds of combat against that khorne lord he dealt me 110 attacks collectively (these were spearate games of course) i mean the bloke i was playing agianst was impossibly lucky but still. and with a SM chapter master and retinue i haven't even come close to killing abbadon. oh yer and my other post was just suggestion for everyone to debate about i've only been playing for a couple of months so yer. sorry if it sounded noobish Imperialis_Dominatus :D. Does anyone think that Captain Lysander and some kind of retinue would be able to kill Abbadon the Dispoiler?

BigRob
02-11-2008, 08:24
I dont see the problem for upping storm shields to a 3+. Your still paying for it and the shields are alot bigger than the older ones, so it even looks like they should offer more protection. If marines are beating you JUST because thier stormshields got a bit better your doing something wrong

shabbadoo
02-11-2008, 09:22
I likethe new dodex aoverall, but there do seems to be some points discrpencies here and there(i.e. some things too expensive; some things too cheap).

About the only thing I think is missing from the book is actual coverage of more founding Legions/Chapters and special characters for them- namely the Iron Hands and a few others. A few more special characters would have covered things very nicely. This coul have been accomplished by having less fiction in the book and more meat for these ingored Legions/Chapters. How could GW really do a good job of things at this point? That's right. Put some info on these Legions/Chapter in White Dwarf, and after a while as a download on their web sites. Everybody gets some love and at least a few issues of White Dwarf get to be worth their hefty cover price.

Vaktathi
02-11-2008, 09:31
You'll just have to find a different approach than pointing some Plasma Cannons towards them.

Such as?

The classic way of defeating Terminators has been to hit them with weapons which will deny them their armor save and force them to use their much inferior invulnerable save (unless you can muster an incredible amount of fire to force failing 2+ armor saves, not something that's always viable, especially with an army like IG). 2+/3+ save terminators are twice as likely to survive AP1/2 fire now, for an army like IG, trying to stop them from getting into a tank short of physically body blocking them isn't exactly going to be easy, nor did they exactly need that much of a boost.


I dont see the problem for upping storm shields to a 3+. Your still paying for it and the shields are alot bigger than the older ones, so it even looks like they should offer more protection. If marines are beating you JUST because thier stormshields got a bit better your doing something wrong Stormshield terminators are the *exact* same cost as the older ones. And having terminators that live through 200% more AP2 fire is definitely something that can prove to be a crux if their CC ability and not their shooting power is whats required.

Also, looks should really have nothing to do with it, if looks were everything Kasrkin would have power armor, Cadians would have Carapace, and Sisters Repentia wouldn't have an armor save (much less their current 4+)

Radium
02-11-2008, 11:04
Well, something has to be wrong when your army has 3 immortal units (more when you have a techmarine), and when your army has the ability to completely mess with the things other armies depend upon to have a chance of winning (cover saves, high T models, actually killing things with plasma weapons).

Badger[Fr]
02-11-2008, 12:09
It's kinda like the Monolith (except it's not ).
The Lith is balanced by the Phase Out rule which prevents Necron Players from spamming their otherwise grossly overpowered vehicule. Assault Terminators are not.


It doesn't change the fact that 3+ invulns are something you shouldn't ever see
If I remember correctly, the two only models who were ever allowed a 3+ Invulnerable Save were The Lord of Change and Lord Solar Macharius. Now, your average Space Marine veteran can have it.


unless you can muster an incredible amount of fire to force failing 2+ armor saves, not something that's always viable, especially with an army like IG
QTF. It takes an average, 180 lasgun shots (or 35 Plasma shots) to kill a 5-man strong Terminator Squad.


You'll just have to find a different approach than pointing some Plasma Cannons towards them.
It reminds me of the old 4th Ed Falcon threads: "You know, dealing with Falcons is easy, you just have to find a different approach than trying to destroy them before their cargo wipes out your whole army".

Draconian77
02-11-2008, 12:21
Well I don't play with the Marines but my brother does and after a few games I'd say that its certainly much fairer now.

I mean the las/plas is gone which is a good thing and although Sterngaurd and Vanguard are very good they are still incredibly easy to kill. Assault Termies having a 3+ Inv save is excellent.

Lets face it, how many times did you see assault termies taken over regular termies? Something that restores the balance is a good thing.(Same with the Cyclone finaly being on par with the Assault Cannon and probably a little better)

Bikes got better/cheaper. This was required and yet its been overlooked in nearly all these posts.

The Thunderfire, hmm... It different... Seems very easy to kill for 100pts though.

Now, a gripe! Special Characters. I know I'm opening a can of worms here but Special Characters in this book are grossly overpowered on a point-for-point comparison with the regular Marine HQ choices. Not as customisable but things like "All melta and flame weapons are now twin-linked" is a bit much, especially when it doesn't seem to be costing you anything to take it.

As mentioned by most other posters the fluff is a little slanted. But its not like GW have ever made a perfect product. (Ok, a tad harsh, my lovely new plastic Carnifexes/Carnifexi(?) verge on perfect...)

Madfool2
02-11-2008, 12:26
You know what kills anything.

S6+ multiple shot weaponry.

See the Eldar for that :p

Grand_Marshal_Kazan
02-11-2008, 12:40
What are 3+ storm shields to a warscythe?

Iracundus
02-11-2008, 13:17
;3054906']If I remember correctly, the two only models who were ever allowed a 3+ Invulnerable Save were The Lord of Change and Lord Solar Macharius. Now, your average Space Marine veteran can have it.


Eldrad had a 3+ invulnerable. See latest Eldar Codex.

Radium
02-11-2008, 13:29
At least Eldrad costs more than 5 assault terminators, can kill himself with PotW (slim chance, but still) and won't wreck everything he comes into base contact with.

Draconian77
02-11-2008, 13:34
I honestly don't see anything rong with the new Assault Terminators.
You can kill them by forcing multiple armour saves, in fact its probably easier to do it this way considering that Ap2 weapons are never going to be 1:2 vs normal weapons and 2+ is only 16ish% better than 3+ anyway.

Or if you can't do that you can try avoiding them. Their not that fast and any sort of trnasport is expensive. Deep Striking carries its own risks but once again you have to be at least as fast as they are and you get a turn of movement on them.

Honestly, they are balanced. I still find Terminators very easy to kill for 40pts. And I'm a Tyranid player!

Mozzamanx
02-11-2008, 13:39
...2+ is only 16ish% better than 3+ anyway.

Sorry, minor mistake here but wrong maths always pisses me off.

A 2+ save is twice as good as a 3+ save. Who cares how many shots you stop, its how many that are getting through that are the problem. A 3+ save has 2 rolls that fail (1 & 2), whereas only 1 will fail on a 2+ model (1).


I wouldn't say the new Marine 'dex is necessarily overpowered on individual units, its just that it has so many more options and so much variety that other codexes look a bit crap in comparison. Plus it has the versatility to get away with any opponent...

Imperialis_Dominatus
03-11-2008, 03:55
;3054906']If I remember correctly, the two only models who were ever allowed a 3+ Invulnerable Save were The Lord of Change and Lord Solar Macharius. Now, your average Space Marine veteran can have it.

Well...


Eldrad had a 3+ invulnerable. See latest Eldar Codex.

More or less what I was talking about. Cheating Eldar witch. And he's apparently fighting posthumously for every Craftworld! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

vladsimpaler
03-11-2008, 05:13
More or less what I was talking about. Cheating Eldar witch. And he's apparently fighting posthumously for every Craftworld! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Or counts-as! He knows that different craftworlds have different senses of fashion so he changes his clothes when he goes to fight for them.:o

Warforger
03-11-2008, 05:20
Anyone else notice that all special characters who can get terminator armor have 4 wounds and eternal warrior? Kinda stretching it for a 1st co. captain IMO.

Imperialis_Dominatus
03-11-2008, 08:28
Belial, Typhus, and Lysander would like a word about Eternal Warrior.

Shadowfax
03-11-2008, 23:11
People got so caught up in comparing this to the DA codex that they seemed to forget to compare it to its direct predecessor.

Is there anybody in the world willing to make a straight-faced refutation of the idea of "codex creep" now? Nearly every option in the codex got better or cheaper, and nothing was toned down significantly.

Anyway, as a longtime marine player this codex disgusts me. GW are incompetents, liars, and hypocrites.

HsojVvad
04-11-2008, 00:31
Shadowfax, why are you so disgusted? I thought you would be happy with cheaper, better, how is that bad for you, being a SM player?

Kalec
04-11-2008, 00:55
Shadowfax, why are you so disgusted? I thought you would be happy with cheaper, better, how is that bad for you, being a SM player?

Maybe he fails to realize that only the utter trash got better, while all of the stuff that SM needed to play competitively is gone?

Thud
04-11-2008, 01:06
Maybe he fails to realize that only the utter trash got better, while all of the stuff that SM needed to play competitively is gone?

Now, I don't want to jump the gun here, but it seems to me you're insinuating that Space Marines are no longer competitive. Are you, in fact, insinuating that Space Marines are no longer competitive?

Shadowfax
04-11-2008, 05:48
Shadowfax, why are you so disgusted? I thought you would be happy with cheaper, better, how is that bad for you, being a SM player?
Many reasons, and they've all been touched on in this thread and elsewhere. Its not bad for me as far as fielding competitive armies, but I'll feel dirty every time I use the codex.

- shameless about-face on the trend towards "balance" that everyone used to justify codex DA
- stuff improving that didn't need to
- brainless units like Sternguard that don't have a downside

The first point is what sickens me the most. How quickly and shamelessly GW reversed all the design philosophies that were supposed to usher in 5th edition. This also happened, to some extent, in the new Ork book, but it was more tolerable there because they'd been using such horrible options for so long. The new book took an army on the bottom and put it on top. The new SM book takes an army that already kicked ass and makes it even better, without losing anything significant in the bargain.

LordofWar1986
04-11-2008, 06:14
I myself find the C:SM is a bit much to take on the field of battle. I cannot say anything about the fluff since I haven't read any of it yet. Even though I still have yet to read how they feel that (a generally offensive) spearhead superhuman race needs a CANNON option. Techpriests (or whoever controls this thing) IMO still don't have any competitive battlefied role even with this new toy.

My real insight on the new C:SM is this. With all the new rules, units (options and point alterations), special character revamps, and any non Ultramarine chapter implication, it is just simply TOO mind blowing. I'm just thinking how a new player, starting from Black Reach, might react after look at this new book and go "Whoa! OMG!! TOO much to read! Im playing Orks instead!" All because GW felt it was necessary to jam so much into their pride and joy SM's.

Don't get me wrong, much the book suits much better to the 5th edition rule set, GW could have brought back the other chapters much how they have always done it in the past with seperate codexs.

That's my two cents, take it or leave it.

squeekenator
04-11-2008, 08:03
- brainless units like Sternguard that don't have a downside

Sure, and Grey Knights have no downsides either. They have true grit, nemesis force weapons, storm bolters, fearless, aegis and shrouding! BROKEN! Oh wait, they cost 25pts each! Sternguard don't even have the somewhat unreliable protection shrouding offers the Grey Knights, all they have is magic bullets.


- stuff improving that didn't need to

Such as? I can't think of anything that didn't need improving. Maybe the new drop pod assault rule is a bit over the top, but the point about them arriving haphazardly and being shredded was indeed a valid one.


Nearly every option in the codex got better or cheaper, and nothing was toned down significantly.

You sure about that? Tacticals went up in price, veteran sergeants became compulsory, assault cannon cost got increased, Librarians and Chaplains have 2 attacks and wounds, Rites of Battle lives on only with Sicarius, they need 10 Marines to get any weapons other than bolters and Venerable Dreadnoughts are ludicrously expensive. I might have missed some stuff, but is that enough nerfs for you there?

The one thing I do agree was a little too far was the Storm Shield buff, but then, considering the utter ownage that is lightning claws and the abundance of high cover saves in 5th, I'm not sure they are that superior to everything else. Maybe they could have been weakened a bit, but they won't break the game.

Brucopeloso
04-11-2008, 08:11
Rant

Mhhh, the annoying thing is that marines get so much "speciality"!

3+ invulnerable saves? Until C:SM they were only available for very few models......

Denying invulnerable saves? Once again restricted to C'tan or warschytes.... now with null zone all saves within 24" of the libby won't work!

Ok, that's just annoying but can be easily taken care of.

The game breaking part is the sheer flexibility of the basic units. In an edition that forces you to compromise and fine tune your army to deal with objectives and kill points C:SM gives you combat squads for all scoring units (plus flamer and missile launcher for free for tactical squads)!

I play SM as well as other armies but I feel somewhat dirty when I do.

Rant over

TheOverlord
04-11-2008, 08:42
Tacticals went up in price and got free special and heavy weapons to compensate for it, making them actually cheaper for the same sized unit in the previous codex.

I can't exactly call that a nerf.

squeekenator
04-11-2008, 08:45
Only if you take a full squad. You can no longer take 6 man las/plas squads, which is a nerf. You're now forced to spend a lot more points on your Tacticals if you want them to do anything at all.

Shadowfax
04-11-2008, 08:57
Sure, and Grey Knights have no downsides either. They have true grit, nemesis force weapons, storm bolters, fearless, aegis and shrouding! BROKEN! Oh wait, they cost 25pts each! Sternguard don't even have the somewhat unreliable protection shrouding offers the Grey Knights, all they have is magic bullets.
There's a post on the first page of the thread that describes my attitude in more depth than I'm willing to go into here. Condensed version: Grey Knights operate as their own unit, and must be maneuvered accordingly. Sternguard are maneuvered just like any other rapid-firing marines would be, but any time they shoot they automatically have access to whatever ammo would work best in that situation. For 25 points they can deal with almost any threat.



Such as? I can't think of anything that didn't need improving.
You can't be serious.

Land Raider = same price, PotMS got better
Dreadnought, Speeders = extra weapon options out of nowhere
Apothecary = way better
Vindicator = cheaper, functions the same
Whirlwind = same price, no longer chooses ammo

All of those things were viable and valuable before, and received unnecessary, unjustified enhancements.



You sure about that? Tacticals went up in price, veteran sergeants became compulsory, assault cannon cost got increased, Librarians and Chaplains have 2 attacks and wounds, Rites of Battle lives on only with Sicarius, they need 10 Marines to get any weapons other than bolters and Venerable Dreadnoughts are ludicrously expensive. I might have missed some stuff, but is that enough nerfs for you there?
Tacticals got about 3-4 points worth of enhancement for 1 point, and lamenting the death of min-maxing is a joke; you shouldn't have been doing it in the first place.

Vaktathi
04-11-2008, 08:59
Sure, and Grey Knights have no downsides either. They have true grit, nemesis force weapons, storm bolters, fearless, aegis and shrouding! BROKEN! Oh wait, they cost 25pts each! Sternguard don't even have the somewhat unreliable protection shrouding offers the Grey Knights, all they have is magic bullets. Magic bullets that make them exceedingly effective against anything that isn't a tank. I can't think of another unit in the game with such versatility other than Obliterators, and those can't be made scoring units and their Deep Strike abilities are far less certain.




Such as? I can't think of anything that didn't need improving. Really? I find it hard to believe that the Vindicator not only merited a points drop, but also a free ignores terrain upgrade, especially when everyone else's released within the previous 18 months was more expensive and didn't get that upgrade.

Land Raider transport capacities? Especially when it doesn't apply to other armies with the exact same land raiders?

Apothecaries are now far and away better with FNP, making units basically Plague Marines without the T5

And all sorts of new weapons options on half the vehicles.






You sure about that? Tacticals went up in price, veteran sergeants became compulsory Taking a full 10man squad with weapons and Sergeant however is cheaper than it used to be. Sure you can't las/plas spam, but every marine book that's come out in the last 2 years has gotten rid of that. SM tac squads, with identical equipment, are cheaper than DA tac squads that don't get Combat Tactics.



The one thing I do agree was a little too far was the Storm Shield buff, but then, considering the utter ownage that is lightning claws and the abundance of high cover saves in 5th, I'm not sure they are that superior to everything else. Maybe they could have been weakened a bit, but they won't break the game.Try throwing them in a Land Raider with Vulkan in the army. Dumping out of an LR and getting to re-roll hits and saving against 2/3rds of armor-ignoring hits makes them more than a wee bit silly against just about any unit.


Only if you take a full squad. You can no longer take 6 man las/plas squads, which is a nerf. You're now forced to spend a lot more points on your Tacticals if you want them to do anything at all. Again, this happened to every single SM book (DA/BA/CSM, etc) to come out in the last two years, nor was it really all that much of a nerf considering the addition of grenades+pistol+Combat Tactics.

The_Outsider
04-11-2008, 09:31
Put it this way - GW removed voluntary fallback from the game because it is rediculously powerful and that is essentially what combat tactics is.

It can easily make close combat pointless against marines if you have a unit that cannot take bolter fire (wyches, genestealers, banshees etc).

IJW
04-11-2008, 10:00
I find it hard to believe that the Vindicator not only merited a points drop, but also a free ignores terrain upgrade, especially when everyone else's released within the previous 18 months was more expensive and didn't get that upgrade.
Minor point - the 'ignores terrain' upgrade is NOT free. It's cheap, but it isn't free.


Put it this way - GW removed voluntary fallback from the game because it is rediculously powerful and that is essentially what combat tactics is.

It can easily make close combat pointless against marines if you have a unit that cannot take bolter fire (wyches, genestealers, banshees etc).
All three of those examples are likely to catch the retreating Marines via Sweeping Advance (due to high Initiative), cause No Retreat! wounds and still be locked in combat. Now, shooting the marines on the way in has become a lot more risky, as causing too many casualties will result in the marines jumping back out of charge range and thumbing their noses at the assault unit... :D

Imperialis_Dominatus
04-11-2008, 10:11
Only if you take a full squad. You can no longer take 6 man las/plas squads, which is a nerf. You're now forced to spend a lot more points on your Tacticals if you want them to do anything at all.

True. But I think that was a needed nerf myself.

Hellebore
04-11-2008, 10:20
To be honest the only thing in the marine codex that bothers me at all is the background. ALOT.

I don't mind much of the special units, although I continuously had 'why'd they do that?' moments looking at most units.

The special characters I thought were over the top and I REALLY dislike the hamfisted way they decided to give marine characters I1 weapons, apparently almost all of them are immune to instant death for no reason. No wraithbone suit powered by the souls of the dead, no deamonic energy, no hive mind. Nothing. Why? Because it's the only way they could think of to balance striking last. So now to be a viable I1 unit you need to be immune to instant death :rolleyes:

I didn't like the sudden changing of how the 1st company worked. There are several editions that wish to disagree with how they've been changed, but that was inevitable to sell miniatures. Maybe they also thought they could just not release Deathwatch now with the uber version.

I don't like the idea of units that can switch their abilities mid game, it makes them impossible to balance properly. How much would a guardian weapon platform cost if you could change it to any of the eldar heavy weapons every turn?

Relic blades seemed like a cheap way to make marines even more uber. However they can be a good counts as tool for unique chapter masters etc, a S6 power weapon is a unique kind of weapon and so would help to make your character stand out from the power sword/fist/claw crowd.

The huge lengths they went to with the scouts. All these extra commando sneaky bomb rules etc.

Plus the Techmarines and their sudden ability to nail ceramite sheets to a lightpost to protect you.

This codex really struck me as stretching as far as possible to try and come up with ANYTHING that could be turned into a new rule to make marines more sellable.



As far as I am concerned all this codex did was tell people their army sucked. An analogy I made was it would be like Holden cars selling the Barina with stickers all over it saying Holden Commodores suck! anyone that buys one is stupid! Buy the shiny Barina instead.

To me it makes no sense to go to the effort of making several product lines that must all work synergistically together and then do your damndest to convince people to only buy ONE of them.

Sure if the other lines were from a rival company, but your OWN product?! It's just stupid. The fact that the other armies haven't been dropped in favour of Marinehammer 40,000 proves that they need them, but they've decided the minimum amount of support is required.

That's like building a house and spending all your time and money on one foundation, using leftover plywood to build the others. Sure one corner of your house will stay up, but the rest will just collapse.

Hellebore

squeekenator
04-11-2008, 10:21
There's a post on the first page of the thread that describes my attitude in more depth than I'm willing to go into here. Condensed version: Grey Knights operate as their own unit, and must be maneuvered accordingly. Sternguard are maneuvered just like any other rapid-firing marines would be, but any time they shoot they automatically have access to whatever ammo would work best in that situation. For 25 points they can deal with almost any threat.

And for that point cost, they should be able to, because, point-for-point, almost any threat can deal with them. In a straight shoot-out, ignoring cover and such, a squad of 6 Sternguard (150pts) loses to 25 Guardsmen with lasguns (150pts). Guardsmen aren't exactly overpowered, and lasguns are pretty much pathetic but, assuming simultaneous firing and exact averages on Morale checks, the Guardsmen win, despite auto-running after taking 50% casualties. A unit that dies that easily for its cost has permission to be as versatile as it wants.


Land Raider = same price, PotMS got better
Eh, Land Raiders weren't that great before. 250pts for a pair of twin-linked lascannons isn't too good. Still, I do admit that I haven't used any since 4th edition, so I may be biased against them due to their old frailty.
Dreadnought, Speeders = extra weapon options out of nowhere
The best Dreadnought option is still an assault cannon, and now that's more expensive. As for the Speeders, I didn't notice they could now get dual multi-meltas, that's pretty nasty. However, Land Speeders were best as assault cannon platforms, and now those are more expensive. They got more and pretty cool options, but the thing that made them kick backside is now a bit less nasty.
Apothecary = way better
True, but I never saw a single Apothecary under the 4th edition rules. Either my club is weird, or they did need a buff. In my opinion, at least, they did need a buff. The buff they receive may have been too big, I'm not sure, but I'm just saying they needed some sort of buff.
Vindicator = cheaper, functions the same
Yeah, I guess. The maximum scatter range on its demolisher cannon is bigger, so there is now a higher chance of nuking yourself, but it is indeed cheaper.
Whirlwind = same price, no longer chooses ammo
[b]Again, I never saw a single Whirlwind fielded, so I assume they needed a buff. I've only seen one person saying they were good under 4th edition rules. Still, I admit I never tried them out either, so I can't really pass judgement.


Tacticals got about 3-4 points worth of enhancement for 1 point, and lamenting the death of min-maxing is a joke; you shouldn't have been doing it in the first place.

I didn't do it in the first place. I don't collect Marines and don't plan on doing so. And you can hardly dismiss las/plas squads when arguing about balance by saying they're min/maxing. Min/maxers are a part of balance, and in fact are quite a large part. If everyone insists on 'playing fair', you don't need balanced codexes. Whether or not Combat Tactics and Combat Squads makes up for the loss of las/plas squads I'm not sure, but the loss, while predictable, still weakens them.


Magic bullets that make them exceedingly effective against anything that isn't a tank. I can't think of another unit in the game with such versatility other than Obliterators, and those can't be made scoring units and their Deep Strike abilities are far less certain.

Hardly 'exceedingly effective'. Hellfire rounds increase their chance per shot to kill a Guardsman from 44% to 55% or ignore his cover and stay at 44%. Fire Warriors in cover suffer no disadvantage at all, as AP4 shots hit a 4+ cover save and dragonfires a 4+ armour save. Vengeance shots get outranged by regular bolters and kill their highly expensive wielders. You cannot rely on Sternguard to win a fight, because they die horribly from anything.


Try throwing them in a Land Raider with Vulkan in the army. Dumping out of an LR and getting to re-roll hits and saving against 2/3rds of armor-ignoring hits makes them more than a wee bit silly against just about any unit.

Well yeah, Vulkan is just plain ridiculous. I don't recall supporting the new special characters, and if I did then I obviously wasn't paying attention to what I was typing.


Put it this way - GW removed voluntary fallback from the game because it is rediculously powerful and that is essentially what combat tactics is.

It can easily make close combat pointless against marines if you have a unit that cannot take bolter fire (wyches, genestealers, banshees etc).

Yeah, but those units tend to have high enough Initiative to catch the Marines in the sweeping advance and thus stop them from escaping.

EDIT: Curse my long posting!



Only if you take a full squad. You can no longer take 6 man las/plas squads, which is a nerf. You're now forced to spend a lot more points on your Tacticals if you want them to do anything at all.

True. But I think that was a needed nerf myself.

Of course, but a needed nerf is a nerf nonetheless.


To be honest the only thing in the marine codex that bothers me at all is the background. ALOT.

I agree with this 110%. It's fething ridiculous. A venerable dreadnought explodes and takes out an entire spaceport and every Necron inside it. Seriously, what? I would be more accepting of that if there were stories of Dreadnoughts being sniped by lascannon fire and blowing a Titan-sized hole in the Space Marine army before the battle even begins, but evidently they only explode with about the same force as a nuclear weapon if they're going to look epic while doing so. And a regular Battle Brother carving a Wraithlord up with a knife is stupid on a scale that defies adjectives. Only morbid fascination stopped me from closing the book there and then and doing something intelligent, like repeatedly banging my head against a wall.

Fixer
04-11-2008, 12:14
You could call the tactical marine unit re-organisation more of a side-step than a buff or a nerf. Personally I used to use 8 strong tacticals with twin special weapons (P&C) and a powerfist sgt. Now I have to go for 10 strong units to get my special + heavy and I can only have one special.

Perhaps the 10 strong unit is cheaper than buying the exact same unit before but it's not as points-efficient as the old 8 strong unit was. Nor can you do the old minimax of the 6 strong las-plas.

What's more interesting for me, is that the new codex marines play a lot more like they're supposed to. With grenades + rear armor tanks and combat squads. They're much more flexible.

The current balance of the codex has to be taken in context of the 5th edition as well.
Competetive space-marines in 4th were all based around assault cannons and pretty much landspeeder tornados. Much bitching was thrown around on the intertubes, yet still marines were never that competetive. Top spots more regularly ending up in the hands of Eldar, Nidzilla, Chaos, Tau or Necrons than space marines.

The 4th edition space marine codex in 5th was target practice.

The new Codex has given a lease of life to the army. Whether it's overpowered or not still has to be seen. Certainly there are some nasty combos (Khan, Landraider, Outflank and Assault Terminators come to mind) but will these break the game? I personally don't think so. For all the Sternguard's vaunted awesomeness when combined with Pedro, I saw that army get rolled over by Orks just a couple of weeks back. Even when backed up by three Thunderfire cannons.

Vaktathi
04-11-2008, 15:19
And for that point cost, they should be able to, because, point-for-point, almost any threat can deal with them. In a straight shoot-out, ignoring cover and such, a squad of 6 Sternguard (150pts) loses to 25 Guardsmen with lasguns (150pts). Guardsmen aren't exactly overpowered, and lasguns are pretty much pathetic but, assuming simultaneous firing and exact averages on Morale checks, the Guardsmen win, despite auto-running after taking 50% casualties. A unit that dies that easily for its cost has permission to be as versatile as it wants. Thats also just about the poorest use of Sternguard vets I could think of however. That's what 10man Tac squads are for. Sternguard are for tossing their "ignores cover" rounds at heavy weapons squads in cover, hitting MC's with "wounds on 2+" rounds, stabbing 4+sv troops (such as Dire Avengers or ST's) at 30", etc.






Hardly 'exceedingly effective'. Hellfire rounds increase their chance per shot to kill a Guardsman from 44% to 55% or ignore his cover and stay at 44%. Shots that can hit farther away, or ignore cover are both extremely useful against IG.


Fire Warriors in cover suffer no disadvantage at all, as AP4 shots hit a 4+ cover save and dragonfires a 4+ armour save. You can still pop the 2+ wound on them too for increased effectiveness. Also out in the open, those Fire Warriors are going to get annihilated, such as when they pop out the back of a devilfish.


Vengeance shots get outranged by regular bolters and kill their highly expensive wielders. True, but at that magic 12" rapid fire range, they are also dealing triple their normal number of effective casualties against MEQ units.


You cannot rely on Sternguard to win a fight, because they die horribly from anything. Last I saw they were as tough as normal marines, they aren't just going to evaporate if they get looked at nastily. Of course they aren't going to hand you everything on a silver platter, they need to be used in conjunction with everything else, but where other armies have to pick and choose which units will be effective against different units, Sternguard are a one-size-fits all choice. Are they totally broken by themselves? No, but can they be horrifically abused? Yes.




Eh, Land Raiders weren't that great before. 250pts for a pair of twin-linked lascannons isn't too good. Still, I do admit that I haven't used any since 4th edition, so I may be biased against them due to their old frailty. Under 5th they are far and away better, and the new PotMS is more than slightly ridiculous given what happened to everyone else's ability to move and fire.



The best Dreadnought option is still an assault cannon, and now that's more expensive. That depends on what you want to kit it out for, the AC isn't as effective against tanks anymore (thank god, it used to be better than the LC). Personally I like the LC+ML combo myself.


As for the Speeders, I didn't notice they could now get dual multi-meltas, that's pretty nasty. However, Land Speeders were best as assault cannon platforms, and now those are more expensive. They got more and pretty cool options, but the thing that made them kick backside is now a bit less nasty. dual MM's isn't anything to scoff at however, especially not in a Vulkan army.



True, but I never saw a single Apothecary under the 4th edition rules. Either my club is weird, or they did need a buff. In my opinion, at least, they did need a buff. The buff they receive may have been too big, I'm not sure, but I'm just saying they needed some sort of buff. I saw them in a couple armies, they mainly just needed a price decrease and/or IC ability to move between units, now it basically just gives SM's plague marines without T5.



Yeah, I guess. The maximum scatter range on its demolisher cannon is bigger, so there is now a higher chance of nuking yourself, but it is indeed cheaper. The scatter thing applies to everyone's blast weapons however.










I agree with this 110%. It's fething ridiculous. A venerable dreadnought explodes and takes out an entire spaceport and every Necron inside it. Seriously, what? I would be more accepting of that if there were stories of Dreadnoughts being sniped by lascannon fire and blowing a Titan-sized hole in the Space Marine army before the battle even begins, but evidently they only explode with about the same force as a nuclear weapon if they're going to look epic while doing so. And a regular Battle Brother carving a Wraithlord up with a knife is stupid on a scale that defies adjectives. Only morbid fascination stopped me from closing the book there and then and doing something intelligent, like repeatedly banging my head against a wall.Yar, the whole thing read like a really bad internet fanfic sadly.

Draconian77
04-11-2008, 15:43
I still can't understand this hatred of Sternguard. Yes, they have an answer to 80% of the situations that can arrive in a game and yes they are not limited in any way, shape or form but for 25pts for 1 wound is a bitter pill to swallow for nearly any race. What makes Obliterators so powerful is a combination of options and resilience.

I'm also surprised about the Vindicator comments. It did need a points drop. Any vehicle rendered practically useless by a "Weapon Destroyed" result needs to be cheap. You can still use it for blocking Los or movement but a Rhino can do that for 1/3 of the points.

I'll be playing another game this weekend so maybe this game the all powerful Sternguard will single-handedly wipe me off the tabletop, but I doubt it. T4 3+ Saves, I know how to kill that...

Fixer
04-11-2008, 22:03
I have to admit, i'm somewhat puzzled by the Sternguard reaction as well.

They're nice, but not amazingly good. They're priced about right for what they do.

Chaos marines can get a fairly similar unit in chosen or plain 'ol havoks. Same number of attacks, 4 special weapons (probably all plasma or melta for kicks), you can shill out 3 points over havoks to get chosen with infiltrate and you can flavour them with an icon.

For the same price as my 10 strong squad of Sternguard with powerfist and two combi meltas mounted in a drop pod I can get a squad of 8 Chaos terminators all equipped with combi plasma/meltas with an icon of Tzeentch for my Thousand sons.

Maybe it's just bolter envy.

grizzly ruin
05-11-2008, 15:26
Chaos marines can get a fairly similar unit in chosen or plain 'ol havoks. Same number of attacks, 4 special weapons (probably all plasma or melta for kicks), you can shill out 3 points over havoks to get chosen with infiltrate and you can flavour them with an icon.



The two units are apples and oranges and are not even remotely in the same league as each other.

1 - Barring the fact that the Sternguard come with ATSKNF, Combat Squads and Combat Tactics; a unit of 4x meltagun or 4x plasmagun havocs are specialized making them very good against some targets and signifcantly poor performers vs. others. This is unlike the Sternguard who can choose their ammo as needed and basically be specialized and versatile at the same time.

2 - The Havocs are limited to 4 of those weapons in the choices you gave, unlike the Sternguard who all come equipped with their special ammo standard. The special weapons added to the Havocs would make each Havoc carrying one as expensive or more expensive than the Sternguard equivalent.'

3 - Havocs can not take drop pods.

hawo0313
06-11-2008, 09:30
basicly I am annoyed by the fact that while the space marines get all this new stuff when they're already competitive when there are teams out there begging for a new codex basicly it comes down to this why every turn a sternguard unit can be flexible and specialised against everything! Why can a terminator raise his sheild to block a projectile moving ten times the speed of sound! And why can space marines who have ATSKNF choose to fall back or not even fearless units cant do this!

alex03
06-11-2008, 09:36
Why can a terminator raise his sheild to block a projectile moving ten times the speed of sound!

Well, technically the storm sheild has/is a feild generator. Its original purpose was to sheild the terminator from the explosive blast of the thunderhammer when swung. Thus Im sure the field covers the whole terminator to begin with and always has.

If your going to argue something, you could argue that why is the stormshields field stronger than say the iron halo's field? If anything wouldn't you want a better field on your commander? If fields are all now 4+, which they seem to be, why should the terminators field be a 3+? Of course the old refractor field was a 5+, and its still around on guard and regular terminators, so I guess having different levels of field is ok. Maybe a stronger field is required to protect from the blast of a thunderhammer? Of course now you can weild thunderhammer's without stormshields so that whole theory is out the window. Hmmmm.

Fixer
06-11-2008, 10:33
The two units are apples and oranges and are not even remotely in the same league as each other.

1 - Barring the fact that the Sternguard come with ATSKNF, Combat Squads and Combat Tactics; a unit of 4x meltagun or 4x plasmagun havocs are specialized making them very good against some targets and signifcantly poor performers vs. others. This is unlike the Sternguard who can choose their ammo as needed and basically be specialized and versatile at the same time.

2 - The Havocs are limited to 4 of those weapons in the choices you gave, unlike the Sternguard who all come equipped with their special ammo standard. The special weapons added to the Havocs would make each Havoc carrying one as expensive or more expensive than the Sternguard equivalent.'

3 - Havocs can not take drop pods.

How about comparing Red Apples and Green Apples?

They're in exactly the same league as each other. They're squads with rapid fire weapons that shoot things and have two attacks in close combat. Run the numbers for a ten strong unit of havoks or chosen with 4 plasma guns against a 10 strong unit of sternguard.

They're pretty similar in damage output against most targets, with the chaos side having a huge advantage when killing 2+ save targets, Sternguard having a good advantage against low armor save models in cover and high toughness low save models outside of it. The real differences are in unit rules or additional wargear, which essentially is the style of either chaos or loyalists.

The actual effectiveness of the Sternguard unit hasn't really been looked into by a lot of people. They've just seen a statline. Screamed SPESS MEHREENS MAJIICK BOLTAR TOO GUD! and complained bitterly about their own lack of special rules and ammunition.

StoogeKing
06-11-2008, 11:30
I myself find the C:SM is a bit much to take on the field of battle. I cannot say anything about the fluff since I haven't read any of it yet. Even though I still have yet to read how they feel that (a generally offensive) spearhead superhuman race needs a CANNON option. Techpriests (or whoever controls this thing) IMO still don't have any competitive battlefied role even with this new toy.

My real insight on the new C:SM is this. With all the new rules, units (options and point alterations), special character revamps, and any non Ultramarine chapter implication, it is just simply TOO mind blowing. I'm just thinking how a new player, starting from Black Reach, might react after look at this new book and go "Whoa! OMG!! TOO much to read! Im playing Orks instead!" All because GW felt it was necessary to jam so much into their pride and joy SM's.

Don't get me wrong, much the book suits much better to the 5th edition rule set, GW could have brought back the other chapters much how they have always done it in the past with seperate codexs.

That's my two cents, take it or leave it.

Dude i started with the black reach box on advance order ;) and im a loyal as they'll ever get lol :D

vlad78
06-11-2008, 11:32
I saw them in a couple armies, they mainly just needed a price decrease and/or IC ability to move between units, now it basically just gives SM's plague marines without T5.



We're talking about a single unit of five expensive t4 models only, which furthermore need to be bought with a captain. I hardly see this broken.

You cannot compare them with a full unit of plague marines.

Vlad

StoogeKing
06-11-2008, 11:32
Tactical squads are some what the same as you can make them a full squad of 10 and then just split them into combat squads so there more or less the same. so really they've been upped but as they should because there your only scoring option besides scouts. Vindicators aren't really all that good you can kill it before it comes close to your troops. 4 games out of 8 my vindicator has exploded, much to my dismay, before it even got to fire. Sternguard aren't all that flash either because a havoc squad could slaughter a full 10 man sternguard squad with thier plasmas.

I really seriously don't see why everyone is so upset why can't everyone be a HAPPY NOOB LIKE ME!!!! instead of an evil warlord who just wants to win all the time instead of having fun? i love the game and the modeling, the painting and getting a new box of goodies, but seeing this side of it is really un appealing. Its kinda really sad that everyone feels so ripped off by this i mean in the end the game was made to be fun, not to be winning obsessed and nasty. Im sure everyone here are kool and kind people im just saying everyone just calm down.

Spacecurves
06-11-2008, 15:34
I really seriously don't see why everyone is so upset why can't everyone be a HAPPY NOOB LIKE ME!!!! instead of an evil warlord who just wants to win all the time instead of having fun? i love the game and the modeling, the painting and getting a new box of goodies, but seeing this side of it is really un appealing. Its kinda really sad that everyone feels so ripped off by this i mean in the end the game was made to be fun, not to be winning obsessed and nasty. Im sure everyone here are kool and kind people im just saying everyone just calm down.

I could not agree more stooge! There are lots of well thought out posts in this thread but I'm afraid there is a tendency to equate "cool" with "broken." Sternguard are cool, but they are not unbalanced in any way. This is what every unit should feel like! Fun to play! At 25 pts apiece they are perfectly fine. The special characters are really cool, but I don't think any are "broken." Eldrad and the ork specials are awesome as well remember.

As has been stated above despite the ever present marine bashing on the intertubes, eldar and orks have been the ones winning tournaments for a while now.

Lets all relax, enjoy our toy soldiers, and wait until after the first 5th edition tournament year to judge what armies need balancing.

Shark Army
06-11-2008, 15:42
I dunno, I think Pedro is pretty saucy with his 4 shot AP4 storm bolter...and inspiring presence.

Draconian77
06-11-2008, 16:11
Decent but not game breaking. Still only S4 and Ap4 only gets you so far against certain armies.

Everything in the new Space Marine book looks balanced apart from Venerable Dreadnaughts which seem overpriced by about 20pts but hey, its still a good army book. (Fluff was a little, erm, one dimensional?)

IyandenAvatar
06-11-2008, 16:44
However GW's knowledge of military matters is extremely limited - it's basically a bunch of nerds who have seen Star Wars and read Dune and made a game out of it. The game is also developing into less of a wargame and more a Dice Rolling Game With Miniatures.

Tip of the hat to you Cailus,
I fear that this continuation of streamlining and the need to push miniatures will end with poorly pre-painted marines that come in a randomized box (so you don't know what you might get :0 !!!) that comes with rules for each on cards.

Oh, you got Captain Sicarius!!!! He's super rare!

Your Mum Rang
06-11-2008, 17:26
I think a lot of people really really hate losing and this is where all the famous "Warseer whining" comes from.

qwertywraith
06-11-2008, 20:01
25pts for 1 wound is a bitter pill to swallow for nearly any race.

See also: Noise Marines, who are also fearless (which is often a disadvantage even when not compared to ATSKNF and Combat tactics).

Honestly, I would definitely pay 25 points per model for Sternguard. Put them in a drop pod and put them where you need them. All this whining about them being fragile is pretty well BS. They are not fragile: they are high priority targets. So be smart and limit your enemies LOS to them, put them in cover (3+ anyone?), or reserve.

Also, drop your orbital bombardment on the enemies' AP3 weapons.

My biggest beefs with the new marine codex are the new PoTMS rule which makes their standard pattern Land Raiders so much better than anyone elses (plus the added room). And the reduced cost of bikes and predators. Seriously have you seen the cost of chaos bikes?

EmperorEternalXIX
06-11-2008, 20:40
Have you seen the number of attacks a chaos biker gets versus a space marine one?

Not that I really agree the marines are a fair comparison, though. I feel that this new trend of cheaper models, more cool options than you know what to do with, and obscene special abilities will be brought to chaos before the end of 5th edition, and when it does I can only imagine how horrifying it is gonna be.

Vaktathi
06-11-2008, 22:25
Have you seen the number of attacks a chaos biker gets versus a space marine one? An extra attack per bike yes, but they also cost 8pts more each, don't have an attack bike option, nor Combat Tactics. Granted the extra attack isn't exactly a minor difference, but for the difference in cost, it's really not worth it (which is why you practically never see CSM bikers, I never have) and the Icons are not only overpriced, but very easy to kill off, especially for small bike squads.



Not that I really agree the marines are a fair comparison, though. I feel that this new trend of cheaper models, more cool options than you know what to do with, and obscene special abilities will be brought to chaos before the end of 5th edition, and when it does I can only imagine how horrifying it is gonna be.
Assuming the current one isn't supposed to be their 5th ed codex, that's probably 4 years away, to be swiftly followed in all likelyhood by the next SM codex.

HsojVvad
06-11-2008, 22:50
So this is what our hobby has come to. We have to wait 3-4 years for the update. Geez it can be up to 10 years to wait for an update, what fun is that when you see everyone else get one.

That is not a good excuse.

Your Mum Rang
07-11-2008, 00:24
It's Warseer. Get used to it XD

qwertywraith
07-11-2008, 01:18
So this is what our hobby has come to. We have to wait 3-4 years for the update. Geez it can be up to 10 years to wait for an update, what fun is that when you see everyone else get one.

That is not a good excuse.

By "everyone else" do you mean Marines and Orks?

Look, new edition means new Marine Codex. They were due (largely thanks to popularity) but really should have had a new codex for 5th given how many people play them. Now we need a kick-ass Dark Eldar Codex that will inspire people to play them.

As for comparing Space Marines and Chaos Marines, comparisons should be made because they are so similar overall. They differ in some unit options but most of the essentials are the same. In fact the Chaos Predator is EXACTLY the same as the Marine one, but is 10 points cheaper when you use the Autocannon (Lascannon is the same points).

Anyway the marine dex is pretty badass overall, but not brokenly so. They have some pretty powerful units and equipment, and I think they are a touch more powerful than most previous dexes (Orks being the exception), but they don't have an "I win" button. Sternguard seem a little too obviously good a choice though (being effective against 80% of units is still 80% of units). And we might even see Tactical squads doing something other than sitting back and shooting lascannons and plasma guns. They might (*gasp*) rapid fire their bolters and fire a flamer!

HsojVvad
07-11-2008, 01:29
Well yeah, now Space Marine players have to wait 4 or 5 years now for a new codex. Just kidding, but seriously though, unless you are really a hard core GW player, how can people want to stay in the GW hobby if they don't see their army updated?

How many people were DE players? How many of them are already around? How many of them quit the hobby because DE wasn't updated and they didn't want to start anthour army? Ok maybe there arn't many DE player for GW to worry about but I think they better start worrying about other players. Maybe they wont be starting other armies just because they don't have an update. Maybe instead of changing armies, they will change games. This will affect GW big time.

Then agian, I can be wrong again. It looks like I have been wrong quite a bit lately :P :D

The_Outsider
07-11-2008, 08:26
How many people were DE players? How many of them are already around? How many of them quit the hobby because DE wasn't updated and they didn't want to start anthour army? Ok maybe there arn't many DE player for GW to worry about but I think they better start worrying about other players. Maybe they wont be starting other armies just because they don't have an update. Maybe instead of changing armies, they will change games. This will affect GW big time.

Then agian, I can be wrong again. It looks like I have been wrong quite a bit lately :P :D

It's a circular argument - GW won't update DE because the playerbase isn't there and people don't play DE because they haven't been updated. Round and round it goes, where will it stop? Only Jervis knows.

grizzly ruin
07-11-2008, 15:37
They're in exactly the same league as each other.

You mean except for one being elites, the other being heavy and thus preventing other heavy choices, unlike the SG who will allow you to happily fill up on HS?


run the numbers for a ten strong unit of havoks or chosen with 4 plasma guns against a 10 strong unit of sternguard.

What you mean in the few situations where they will go mexican standoff on each other from 12" out?

The discussion isn't about the two units firing against each other, it's about what the two units are capable vs. enemies.

I'm not saying Havocs with 4x PGs or MGs aren't good. I'm saying your assertion that the two units are 'fairly similar' isn't accurate.

I mean why don't we run numbers vs. a unit of IG or Guardians or Orcs 24" away in cover? Or a unit of Tau at 30"? (that one's a trick question)


This goes back to Havocs having a fairly specific purpose, vs. Sterguard which are very solid vs. a much wider assortment of enemy units.




They're pretty similar in damage output against most targets

I'm willing to read some mathhammer if your willing to supply it.


Also keep in mind the pretty distinct difference in range capabilities.

On a side note, if your 4xPG Havoc squad is shooting at IG or Tau in cover your wasting the unit.




The actual effectiveness of the Sternguard unit hasn't really been looked into by a lot of people. They've just seen a statline. Screamed SPESS MEHREENS MAJIICK BOLTAR TOO GUD! and complained bitterly about their own lack of special rules and ammunition.

I think it's more a reaction to the codex as a whole, after several Codices prior were gutted and 'streamlined' into boredom.

And then a full reversal in design philosophy with more toys, upgrades, new units improving on a codex that was pretty damned good to begin with.



SPESS MEHREENS MAJIICK BOLTAR TOO GUD!

Funny I've seen a lot of well thought out arguments. maybe we're reading different threads you and I.

Unless of course your goal is to portray anyone with a dissenting opinion as a raving *****.

itcamefromthedeep
07-11-2008, 16:29
I think it's more a reaction to the codex as a whole, after several Codeces prior were gutted and 'streamlined' into boredom.

And then a full 360 degree reversal in design philosophy with more toys, upgrades, new units improving on a codex that was pretty damned good to begin with.
I was never impressed with the Marine codex in previous years.

The new codex is a step in the right direction I think, though it may have stepped a little past the mark.

The special characters are subject to abuse, as is the Land Raider, as is the Sternguard, as are Vanguard. To the great unwashed, though, they are not so powerful as to overwhelm all opposition. They do not have units that are a little too powerful in and of themselves the way Fantasy Daemons do.

With the Marines, at least you have to use several units in combinations in a clever way to break them.


a full 360 degree reversalYou might want to think about that one. It doesn't quite work.

Shadowfax
07-11-2008, 17:57
The problem with a unit like Sternguard isn't that they're single-handedly gamebreaking. It's that they take absolutely no imagination or skill to use effectively. A player who is less creative than a servitor with a skull fracture is going to get about as much use out of Sternguard as a seasoned veteran. Armies like Eldar have extremely deadly units, but most of them are counter-weighted in some manner, and have to be used very carefully or they'll be wiped off the table. Sternguard play exactly like every other marine unit; keep them in cover from AP3 weapons, don't get locked up with power weapons, shoot, rinse, repeat.

Marines already have a reputation for being the unskilled player's army of choice/the easiest army to use well. Ultra-versatile units like Sternguard, or Land Raiders that can move around into available firing lanes and still shoot effectively will only add to this (deserved?) myth.

Rutteger1
07-11-2008, 21:33
Dont know if this is a surprise or not, but I really like the codex... Its like this is the big version of the normal codex, like the special rule book, to the black reach mini rulez. It gives fluff, and everything else I want. Including a great gallery. I also really like the codex eldar from 2001, it is awesome. Dont kno y i have it seeing as im completely new to 40k :P

StoogeKing
10-11-2008, 07:26
Yes Rutteger1 it is so so awesome to be the noob's we are lol i hope i never turn into any of these dudes i mean my god is it really worth fighting about? I mean in the white dwarf where the dude use the sternguard squad of 5 and he drop poded them in and 3 of them died the first turn then another the next turn and he was vsing eldar.. im not making it up it was like last months white dwarf or something ... so you know there is your proof of the awesomeness of the sternguard unit lol

Nastra
10-11-2008, 08:21
Speaking as a Tau player I know the exact issue with the Marine codex. Take my firewarriors. They suck in close combat, have a 4+, and a really good rifle. The issue with them is that while it is a strength five gun I don't usually fire more than 1 shot per guy and my guns are AP5 so unless I'm fighting Guard everyone gets a save. To the point, my range is all I really have as a particular advantage. It allows the guns to work their magic. With the new sternguard however I don't get my range or a save. Indeed with that AP4 bullet they can actually do better than me because they get basically Tau range with a better AP value which translates into effective kills against 80% of the armies out there. They lose a strength but that really doesn't change much. That's what is wrong with the new Marine codex. They can do the same things as the specialty armies but without all those drawbacks. And before you jump in with "but the cost per guy!", I'd pay the points. Why? Because they're worth it. This is also not just limited to sternguard but rather the whole army functions in this way.

As a side note: In the comparison between marines and chaos marines, marines win. While there is nothing inherently wrong with the chaos codex, the lack of options, the sub-par special charecters, and the overall lack of anything new, chaos marines are really left in the dust.

Egaeus
10-11-2008, 16:07
Speaking as a Tau player I know the exact issue with the Marine codex. Take my firewarriors. They suck in close combat, have a 4+, and a really good rifle. The issue with them is that while it is a strength five gun I don't usually fire more than 1 shot per guy and my guns are AP5 so unless I'm fighting Guard everyone gets a save. To the point, my range is all I really have as a particular advantage. It allows the guns to work their magic. With the new sternguard however I don't get my range or a save. Indeed with that AP4 bullet they can actually do better than me because they get basically Tau range with a better AP value which translates into effective kills against 80% of the armies out there. They lose a strength but that really doesn't change much. That's what is wrong with the new Marine codex. They can do the same things as the specialty armies but without all those drawbacks. And before you jump in with "but the cost per guy!", I'd pay the points. Why? Because they're worth it. This is also not just limited to sternguard but rather the whole army functions in this way.

I won't mention points, but I will mention slots...Sternguard are an elite option, so comparing them to your basic troop slot is a bit disingenuous. It would be like me saying "those Tau battle suits are so much more powerful than my gaunts it's not fair!"

Not quite sure what you mean by "the whole army functions this way"...while a number of things did get a points reduction while staying functionally the same, other choices stayed the same price or got more expensive without any increase in effectiveness (and in a few places actually got knocked down a bit). I would expect to see this in future releases as well. After all, if GW makes things cheaper pointswise we have to go buy more stuff to make our armies fit the points values of the game. Great concept, isn't it? :angel:

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
10-11-2008, 16:27
As a side note: In the comparison between marines and chaos marines, marines win. While there is nothing inherently wrong with the chaos codex, the lack of options, the sub-par special charecters, and the overall lack of anything new, chaos marines are really left in the dust.

Nothing wrong ?

hmm ... i'll give you short list:
-Obliterators require as much thought as sternguard - they are always good against any target and require not much skill to use.
-Daemon prince with wings and lash[mandatory] or wings/mot/wt/db or woc or boc: cheap and deadly. no brainer
-Khorne Berzerkers: no brainer

this is base of most successful lists atm. underpriced units ...

fluff concern:
-only few options viable
-player forced to take unfluffy combinations of units
-few units viable
-most chaosy unit overpriced: possessed, dread, spawn, daemons
-chaosy options weak:daemon weapon

So 'nothing wrong with chaos codex' is your opinion, and i do not share it for the reasons above.

Even i could create better list. Hell i even done this [check sig][ my black legion codex is finished]

Vaktathi
10-11-2008, 17:04
hmm ... i'll give you short list:
-Obliterators require as much thought as sternguard - they are always good They are also a Heavy Support choice that consists of a maximum of 3 T4 models to be fair. Great unit yes, probably the best CSM HS, but also not a super-hard one to negate given the squad size.



-Khorne Berzerkers: no brainer Khorne berserkers are a no-brainer unit? That's the first I've heard. They are solid units, but far from mandatory by any means. The basic CSM is, point for point, at least as good as they are still not bad at all in CC and have more shooting versatility in addition to being cheaper.




fluff concern:
-only few options viable
-player forced to take unfluffy combinations of units
-few units viable
-most chaosy unit overpriced: possessed, dread, spawn, daemons
-chaosy options weak:daemon weapon All true.



So 'nothing wrong with chaos codex' is your opinion, and do not share it for the reasons above. Is that really necessary? I think not, even though I am also of the opinion that the CSM codex has a lot wrong with it, telling someone that isn't something that they shouldn't share their opinion on an internet discussion board, especially when for the most part they agree with you, is lame.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
10-11-2008, 17:19
They are also a Heavy Support choice that consists of a maximum of 3 T4 models to be fair. Great unit yes, probably the best CSM HS, but also not a super-hard one to negate given the squad size.

For their utility alone they make your opponent disadvantaged. Yeah, every unit could be countered. And they are harder than most to counter

Khorne berserkers are a no-brainer unit? That's the first I've heard. They are solid units, but far from mandatory by any means. The basic CSM is, point for point, at least as good as they are still not bad at all in CC and have more shooting versatility in addition to being cheaper.

Khorne berzerkers sadly outperform other troop choices. Alone they are slightly underpriced, given the combo utility they are underpriced more ....

Is that really necessary? I think not, even though I am also of the opinion that the CSM codex has a lot wrong with it, telling someone that isn't something that they shouldn't share their opinion on an internet discussion board, especially when for the most part they agree with you, is lame.

i'm sorry it should be 'and I do not share it for the reasons above.

i apologise for missing letter which totaly change meaning of my words ...

Mozzamanx
10-11-2008, 17:58
Hmm, I've always considered Plague Marines the no brainer troop rather than Berserkers. Impossible to wound, the wounds that do get through are ignored, and 2 special weapons per squad.

2 Lash Prince, 3x7 Rhino PM, 3x3 Obliterators, then as many Plas-Termies as you can fit in seems to be the standard.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
10-11-2008, 18:13
Heh, PM are also good, but not so offensive and have nerfed fnP [so die against plasma blast and plasma termis just as easly as kb].

SO 2xLash Prince XxKB in Rino Xx3/2 man termis and then either kb in LR or more oblits/plastermis.

PM are not so bad, but KB are better and have 3A fist 4A if charged at WS5 S8/9

so they win.


Oh sorry then, I apologize.

It was my fault. Your reaction was justified.

Vaktathi
10-11-2008, 21:34
i'm sorry it should be 'and I do not share it for the reasons above.

i apologise for missing letter which totaly change meaning of my words ...

Oh sorry then, I apologize.

StoogeKing
11-11-2008, 10:18
yer KB are so powerful two units went through two full squads of space marines before i could blink, i mean :wtf:!!! this was in a recent apocalypse game and it took a heroic feat by my commander and his super unit of masters of the chapter and power weapon and powerfist unit to kill them and even then it was a really close combat ;)

A unit of Obliterators collectively destroyed 3 dreadnoughts and luckily 1 survived and wiped them out (very lucky/unlucky dice rolling:rolleyes:). And this was with the new codex.

Who has really actually played Space Marines since the new codex has come out? I thought last codex you could abuse it more by spamming las/plas squads and giving all sarges and commanders wargear that made them obscenely powerful. Now your kinda limited to what you can do.

Also sternguard aren't scoring units (unless Pedro Cantor is in your army;))
and they can only be in 1 place at a time so they arent super human or anything. Also a unit with fleet of foot can effectively wait out of LOS and then run across the battlefield shreading your sternguard in no time. (yes unfortunately this is what happened to me)

Brucopeloso
11-11-2008, 11:25
In my mind the sternguard are not the issue in the SM codex.

This is what I find broken:

Combat tactics
Combat squads
3+ invulnerable save spam
Null zone power

I think the ability to choose to fail a break test is a huge advantage against assault armies with some form of shooting capability.

Combat squad is a huge advantage in terms of flexibility (kill points vs objective claiming)

3+ invulnerable saves used to be exceedingly rare, now all you have to do is take a storm shield

Null zone is just wrong! Warschytes and c'tan used to be the only things to negate invulnerables, now just add a librarian with jump pack to an assault squad and suddenly most invulnerable saves in the opposing army stop working! Daemon armies, seer councils etc loose any save not only from cc attacks but from any shooting (except for cover saves)!

Yes, lash of torment is really wrong as well but does not make any of the above less unbalancing.

blake
11-11-2008, 11:39
-Units that are definatly better now-

-Certain Special Char's and the combo's they bring forward (Marneus, Lysander, Pedro) all come to mind quickly.
-Librarians on a whole imho are a very nice secondary HQ choice now. Gateway + Smite or whatever tickles your fancy is a excellent combo to blink around a unit of termies.
-Honor guard for Chapter masters are actually a pretty nice buy now. If i run Marneus i think i will almost always include 3 or so.
-Terminators (of both varieties) are now excellent Elite choices. People were worried how they would fare when compared to Stern/Van but those worries were largly unwarrented. These guys at 200pts for 5 with the ability to take up to 10. You can get a dedicated transport landraider for 1 choice of Normal and Assault termies, giving you a possibility of 2 LR's that dont have to come from your heavy selection. Of course i am going to almost always run a squad of 5 now with SS/THammer, 3+ invuln vs shooting and hth is huge.
-Telion - He is great, the 4 wounds that come along with him...not so sure about anymore, probably going to just give them all sniper rifles so they all have at least 36" range, and the Hellfire round Hvy Bolter.
-Typhoon Land Speeders are superb now. Probably going to run a squad of 2, if i could squeeze the points maybe 2 squadrens of 2.
-Scout Bikers - these are probably the only type of bikers i will use in a space marine army. After trying to make a Ravenwing army work i have to say that space marine bikes are far to expensive for what they bring to the table. Cluster Mines and Locater beacon that can scout...yes please.
-Land Raiders just plain own now. All 3 varients can be a good choice. Personally i would only bring a normal or redeemer since you can stick a pintle multi-melta on all of them.
-Whirlwinds got a little more expensive but can choose which rounds to fire before they shoot (not before the game) is excellent. I will probably still always include 2 in my army.

-Things about the same or worse-

-Rest of the HQ's dont really impress me.
-Sternguard im still on the fence about. Thier special rounds do impress me but i havnt played a game yet where i thought "wow i really wish these 2 squads of space marines were instead 1 squad of sternguard".
-All 3 varients of Dreadnaught. Venerable pays waaay too much for WS/BS 5. Ironclad is interesting and i am thinking of trying one out in a game or two to see how it performs.
-Techmarines i just dont know what to do with.
-Scout Squads WS/BS 3 i can live with i suppose espcially since they remained Troops. Just think they lost some of thier versatility.
-Vanguard Vets imho just plain suck for the amount of points they have to spend to Heroic Intervention. 35pts a pop for a guy in a jumppack is rediculous. Thats not even including the power weapon or two you want to slip in the squad. Combine that with the fact that you cannot jump in and assault with an IC in the unit and you have a very expensive small unit that will get stranded after the initial combat and most like torn/shot to pieces.
-Bikers are still too expensive for what they are.
-Predators got hurt more by the 5th edition rules than anything in the codex, so largly unchanged.
-Vindicators suck now imho. Making the Demo cannon count as Ordinance Barrage therefore removing its ability to move and shoot = never brought in my list.

-Things i dont have exprience with-

-Land speeder storm
-Thunderfire Cannon

All in all i think the new space marines are a pretty balanced army. Some versatility was removed from Tac marines but some was added through other squads. Is it as powerful as Orks? Not in my opinion. Orks get soo much for so few points.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
11-11-2008, 13:03
25 point bike too expensive ?

kurac
11-11-2008, 13:47
One question please:
Space marines have bolters and bolt pistols now,does that mean they can choose to shoot their pistol before assaulting instead of shooting a rapid-fire weapon?

- if so, Weeeeeeeeee!!!:D

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
11-11-2008, 14:12
One question please:
Space marines have bolters and bolt pistols now,does that mean they can choose to shoot their pistol before assaulting instead of shooting a rapid-fire weapon?

- if so, Weeeeeeeeee!!!:D

correct - they can.

Stormlord
11-11-2008, 14:29
-Vindicators suck now imho. Making the Demo cannon count as Ordinance Barrage therefore removing its ability to move and shoot = never brought in my list.

Just FYI, this was a typo. I even emailed GW HQs asking for clarification about this. They even responded that a vindicator is Ordinance1, NOT barrage.

borithan
11-11-2008, 15:23
Yup, they can shoot their pistols before charging... otherwise there would be no point to them, as they do not have extra weapons to give them a second attack.

The Song of Spears
11-11-2008, 16:39
Also sternguard aren't scoring units (unless Pedro Cantor is in your army;))
and they can only be in 1 place at a time so they arent super human or anything. Also a unit with fleet of foot can effectively wait out of LOS and then run across the battlefield shreading your sternguard in no time. (yes unfortunately this is what happened to me)

Um, here is a idea for SG:

Take away their bolters, give them chain swords. Put them in a landraider.

Without pedro they get 4 attacks on the charge, they still get their special ammo in the pistols, so they can still put the hurt down before they assault. Toss in a few combi weapons and a fist for anti dread/tank duty and you have a unit that can handle just about anything.

Adding pedro with them makes them scoring and +1 attack, adding shrike in there lets the whole mess fleet after getting out of that raider! Thats just sick! :D

That way you get mobility and power all for not so pricey.

Vaaish
11-11-2008, 16:58
Song: isn't that illegal? pretty sure they can't all replace the bolter with a CC weapon and the special ammo only works with the bolter since it specifically replaces the profile of the weapon.

emperorpenguin
11-11-2008, 17:10
Vaaish is correct, that would be illegal. The special rounds are for "boltguns" (and combi-bolters) not bolt pistols or storm bolters

Ravening Wh0re
12-11-2008, 03:03
-Vindicators suck now imho. Making the Demo cannon count as Ordinance Barrage therefore removing its ability to move and shoot = never brought in my list.

It's not. It's still direct fire. The summary is wrong (as usual), just refer to pg 80

StoogeKing
12-11-2008, 11:02
yer ya stooge song lol and people call me the StoogeKing lol na im just joking haha but what you said about pedro cantor, yer that works but you can't have Shrike and have his fleet rule stack onto Cantor's because you have to choose which chapter tactics you want to use you can't have both!!! SOOOOOo effectively they are good but i think termi's are better yer?

IJW
12-11-2008, 11:35
but what you said about pedro cantor, yer that works but you can't have Shrike and have his fleet rule stack onto Cantor's because you have to choose which chapter tactics you want to use you can't have both!!!
Cantor's Chapter Tactics rule is 'Stubborn'. Sternguard as scoring units and the +1A bubble have nothing to do with Chapter Tactics, so they wouldn't be lost by using Shrike's Chapter Tactics.

EDIT - purely anecdotal, but one of our club members just took second place in the UK GT second heat with his Doublewing army, while the highest-placed Space Marine army came in at 21st. :D

leo_neil316
12-11-2008, 11:42
;3054906']

QTF. It takes an average, 180 lasgun shots (or 35 Plasma shots) to kill a 5-man strong Terminator Squad.



So 3-4 squads of guardsmen over 3-4 turns?

So...... 200ish points of guardsmen vs 200ish points of terminators?

Imperialis_Dominatus
12-11-2008, 13:18
they arent super human or anything.

I see what you did there.

Philby00
12-11-2008, 14:10
i know you can't copy and paste rules or anything but would anyone be able to provide a summary on what the legion of the damned entries are like? i was surprised and excited to hear they are included in the new codex, as far as i could remember they were always a 1 page WD thing with like 1 squad and 1 leader. what are the options and background like?

Egaeus
12-11-2008, 16:13
i know you can't copy and paste rules or anything but would anyone be able to provide a summary on what the legion of the damned entries are like? i was surprised and excited to hear they are included in the new codex, as far as i could remember they were always a 1 page WD thing with like 1 squad and 1 leader. what are the options and background like?

Not a whole lot to tell, really. Background wise they mention that they're specters that occaisionally show up and are really powerful.

Gamewise, they're an Elites choice. Basically Veteran stats with HQ-level leadership and an Invulernable save. Other than their special rules they're essentially a Tactical Squad options-wise.

The Song of Spears
12-11-2008, 17:14
Song: isn't that illegal? pretty sure they can't all replace the bolter with a CC weapon and the special ammo only works with the bolter since it specifically replaces the profile of the weapon.

Yeah, wow, i totally read that wrong. n/m :p

HsojVvad
12-11-2008, 23:21
i know you can't copy and paste rules or anything but would anyone be able to provide a summary on what the legion of the damned entries are like? i was surprised and excited to hear they are included in the new codex, as far as i could remember they were always a 1 page WD thing with like 1 squad and 1 leader. what are the options and background like?

Go into the rumour section and look for the C:SM rumours. I believe there is a picture of the page for what you are looking for.

Can't remember how clear it is.

StoogeKing
13-11-2008, 10:56
Basically Veteran stats with HQ-level leadership and an Invulernable save. Other than their special rules they're essentially a Tactical Squad options-wise.

The sarge actually has WS 5 and they are defienetly not like a tactical squad. You have to pay a heap more points wise for 10 Ld and 3+ invulnerable saves. But, in saying that, you could probably kill alot if you charge with a full squad and druability is a heap better than the normal tacticals. If you really wanted a squad to use as cannon fodder these would be it

Philby00
13-11-2008, 12:19
cheers, thanks for that :)

Usopreme
13-11-2008, 16:10
They are also slow and purposeful and have access to heavy weapons.

bremmer925
14-11-2008, 06:21
-Vindicators suck now imho. Making the Demo cannon count as Ordinance Barrage therefore removing its ability to move and shoot = never brought in my list.

Read page 58 in the core rules. Barrage does NOT take away the ability to use direct fire. It ADDS the ability to use indirect fire and pinning. This is a massive improvement.

Sloeberjong
14-11-2008, 07:22
Read page 58 in the core rules. Barrage does NOT take away the ability to use direct fire. It ADDS the ability to use indirect fire and pinning. This is a massive improvement.

It only says Ord. Barrage in the summary, big deal, GW's summary's are always full of mistakes. My SM book has the normal demolisher cannon profile in the in the unit description...which happens to be more important than the summary.

It would have been nice if it were Ord. Barrage because I could park it behind some terrain piece and lob st 10 around a reasonable part of the battlefield...

Raellos
12-02-2009, 12:47
My thoughts on Codex: Space Marines. I love it! I'm only a little bitter that they decided to give options back after C:CSM. Honest...


But seriously, when they finally get around to updating the other marine books off the back of this it will be good. It will just take some waiting. At least you don't play Dark Eldar.

I'm not a big fan of the background though, and I'm sure you can guess why...

Edit; Oops! Threadomancy. To be fair on me though, I linked to this from google and thought it was a tab I popped up from the forums page.

malisteen
12-02-2009, 16:19
I love the new marine codex. I think it's a shift in the right direction, and I hope that this is still the design philosophy in place when Codex: Chaos Space Marines is redone again (I'm hoping the entire chaos marine book gets revised in this manner, rather then separate legion books that would clutter the codex selection and leave many chaos players with a boring book).

While I could buy a 'streamlined and balanced' approach, the books produced in that time weren't 'balanced' at all. Remember eldar? Remember harlequins and falcons under 4e? And don't tell me that book was intended for 5e, it wasn't the rending and skimmer nerfs were designed around the eldar, not the other way around. Do you remember what the designer said when confronted about falcons? "I never thought people might take more then one."

And the chaos book was less streamlined and more 'unfinished'. The art feels sketchy, the units are poorly balanced (there are overpowered options like lash, and underpowered options like possessed and spawn, aplenty).

GW don't play-test their products before release. As long as they don't, their products will never be 'competitively balanced'. So why should they sacrifice all the special rules, special equipment, and neat unit options that make the game fun in a casual setting in order to benefit a competitive setting that will still inevitably be broken, anyway?

LordManimal
12-02-2009, 16:25
As a very new player (only a handful of games under my belt) I can say from this n00bish perspective that it needs to be made more clear that other chapters have other codex's. I can't tell you how confusing it is to see people breaking out chapter codex's with special rules (12 man squads anyone?) without even a solid, obvious reference to that in the main codex.

Also, what the heck are sternguard? People throw that word around a lot, but I see no units listed in the main space marine codex as sternguard. Old lingo?

Confusion on bikes. There are three entries for each type of bike, but it's rather confusing as to how to build a squad of say assault bikes and how the wounds are distributed. (I'm seeking that information currently) There are two marines and one bike, but the bike has no wounds profile and doesn't count as a vehicle, so we use the stats of the biker(s)? Does an assault bike have 2 wounds then, as it has two marines?

I don't expect these questions to be answered here (excepting maybe the Sternguard one ;-) but there's some ambiguity in it that makes it difficult for a new player to catch up on without as much time surfing the internet for answers as buying and painting an army.

loveless
12-02-2009, 16:31
Also, what the heck are sternguard? People throw that word around a lot, but I see no units listed in the main space marine codex as sternguard. Old lingo?


Huh? Are you using the English version of the Codex? If so, Sternguard are in the Elite section. If not, Sternguard are the veterans with the special issue ammunition.

Earlydawn
12-02-2009, 16:36
I love the new Marine 'dex. It cuts out all the nonsense min-maxing traits and still allows the majority of the same permutations. I also really like the techmarine cannon. It just feels a lot more flexible and balanced.

Lord Damocles
12-02-2009, 16:39
I can't tell you how confusing it is to see people breaking out chapter codex's with special rules (12 man squads anyone?) without even a solid, obvious reference to that in the main codex.
What makes it even more confusing is that the same pieces of wargear, but used by Marines in different coloured armour, have different rules!


Also, what the heck are sternguard?
Shooty Veterans - pages 63 and 136 ;)


Confusion on bikes. There are three entries for each type of bike, but it's rather confusing as to how to build a squad of say assault bikes and how the wounds are distributed. (I'm seeking that information currently) There are two marines and one bike, but the bike has no wounds profile and doesn't count as a vehicle, so we use the stats of the biker(s)? Does an assault bike have 2 wounds then, as it has two marines?
The Attack Bike Squad rules (page 140) seem clear enough to me...

Yes an Attack Bike has 2 wounds, as shown in it's profile(s) both in the Attack Bike and Bike Squad entries. Wounds are distributed in the same way as for other multi-wound models.

Fixer
12-02-2009, 16:41
I don't see why guard worry so much about assault terminators. Even if they make it to combat, what are they going to do? Kill 36 points of infantry and then stand out in the open to get shot at again?

Anyhow, I've started playing around with some of the new options in the marine list a bit more. The thunderfire cannon has earned a spot in my new list and I think a Storm will be finding a way in there too.

My old assault marine army may be finding Shrike to lead them shortly. I just have to tweak things to use the most of my old models.

captainramoz
12-02-2009, 19:39
I actually do not use any of the special characters, to be honest. They are all pretty cool and all, but none of them is quite what I'm looking for. I have always wanted a Librarian-led army...

use the sons of medax according to background librarians can lead their forces.
Or blood ravens their chapter master is a librarian.
Or should drinkers don't forget that Sarpeddon is a librarian.