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View Full Version : Fandex: Legions of Khorne -- Looking for suggestions



EmperorEternalXIX
18-10-2008, 20:37
I am an amateur rules developer with a small unofficial company, working on our own random games here and there. I have decided to try my hand at a "Fandex" -- sort of a mini codex. The one I chose to do first is Legions of Khorne -- basically a Khorne-specific Chaos army.

I don't know exactly why I chose this army, but I am looking for suggestions from Khorne players on the sorts of things they would like to see in such a list.

I have already implemented the following features, on which I wouldn't mind crits and comments:

Customizable Berserkers: They have WS5 and furious charge, but I also gave them some more interesting weapon options, including a modded Khornate Chain Axe that lets you either wound on 3+ or reduce enemy armor saves, depending on your choice.
Bloodthirsty Special Rule: Some units can get this rule which allows them to dive from transports and assault even out of non-assault vehicles, but they must take a dangerous terrain test when doing so.
Daemon Prince grants access to using Codex: Daemons Khorne units: If you use a Daemon Prince, you can take units from the Daemon codex as "Allies".
Parrying No Retreat!: Some models have the ability to return attacks when suffering No Retreat! wounds for being fearless. This means that, say, a DP has to take 5 saves for No Retreat!...any rolls of six count as wounds against the enemy instead. Thought it'd paint a cool picture of the DP blocking or taking a hit, then tearing the head off the poor bastard who tried to fight him, heh
Linebreaker Rhino: I gave the list a Razorback-like Super Rhino (hehe). This can only transport six models and has a variety of gun and upgrade options, including a Blood Dozer, which gives bonuses to tank shock and ramming. Did this mostly to give them some kind of shooting options, as the list is very CC heavy (duh!)
Improved Rhino: The Khornate Rhino can't repair like the loyalist one, but it can still attempt to move slightly even when immobilized.
Land Raider changes: I made the normal Land Raider on par with the loyalist one and added one called a "Hellblood"... it carries powerful Bloodspiller sponsons, each of which is and 18" Str5/AP4/Heavy 5 weapon.
Defiler Variants: I played around with the Defilers and came up with two variants, one is more heavily armored and designed for CC. It has a "Dreadnought chainfist" which strikes as a separate attack and adds an extra wound for each successful wound rolled.
Made the dreadnought have a normal and crazed variant. Crazed still rolls on a table but it is always beneficia and never hits your own men.
Terminator War Trophies: Models in Terminator armour can have war trophies that help win in CC, making the squad count as inflicting an added wound when resolving combat results (Yeah, I know, they can't sweep...but I did this because I think that a lot of people would be bailing if they had to go toe-to-toe with a khorne termie!).
Marauder Bikers: I made these ridiculous super-bikers that have hit and run, and an ability to inflict a small number of STR6 hits on units they turboboost past, representing drive-by decapitations, hehe.
Greater Daemon changes: He now has the Unstoppable rule, which means all of his attacks inflict instant death (-!!!-). He can deploy during the assault phase after a unit has been destroyed (friend or foe). He scatters toward the nearest squad and is born out of the most expensive model in the squad the arrow is aiming at; he may participate in assault is he appears in an unresolved fight that phase.
Daemon weapon changes: Now you can make ANY cc weapon into a daemon weapon. It becomes a power weapon and works normally, but grants +3 attacks on the charge and any rolls of 6 to wound cause instant death. So you could have like, a Daemon Power Fist, for example.
Khorne Lord: Gave him a 3+ invul in close combat, on account of his mastery with his weapon of choice and being able to block and such. Seemed fluffy, not certain about it though.
Thinking about cultists/daemons allies: I currently have rules in place allowing you to use Daemons as allies. I am debating allowing some lesser units from Codex: Imperial Guard as cultist forces, too. Not sure if it would work well. Might be better off just making a Cultist unit...need more ideas.


Anyhow, this is where I am at so far. Unlike many other "fandex" releases, I am an experienced print designer, and so my book is actually going to look exactly like a real codex, with options laid out and fluff summaries, eatc.

Anyone who has an interest in giving me ideas, please feel free, and PM them if you want them kept private. Otherwise I would like to know what all you Blood God fans out there think so far. Thanks!

robtheguru
19-10-2008, 15:34
Sounds really interesting. However i demand you bring back the Axe of Khorne lol. That thing help me annihilate so many units back in the old days.

EmperorEternalXIX
20-10-2008, 05:07
I don't even remember what it did. What was it's effects?

robtheguru
20-10-2008, 11:25
For every 6 you roll to hit, you get an extra attack. The best part was that it kept giving you attacks aslong as you rolled 6's.

Son of Sanguinius
20-10-2008, 17:34
Customizable Berserkers: I agree, but don't get carried away. Leave the real specialization to the Chosen Berserkers, assuming you have them.

Bloodthirsty Special Rule: Me likey.

Demon Prince: Eh, I don't like. I'm as angry at most for not being able to cross the two armies, but I also don't like one army of a race gets to specially circumvent a big restriction. (I'm look at you, Lord Macragge and your Ultramarines..."Who needs Fearless, ya noobz?).

Parrying: No way. Kind of pointless and doesn't reflect much about the Sons of Khorne.

Linebreaker Rhino: Not a big fan unless its reserved for cityfight scenarios. What would be cool is some supercharged upgrade with a drawback like what the Blood Angels get.

Land Raider variant: Not bad. Not entirely necessary though.

Defiler variants: not necessary either. What you could do is use the slaughterfiend or whatever its called from Apocalypse reloaded.

Dreadnought: No way. Again, its removing a specific limitation on a general chaos unit for only one faction. I do think the dreds for chaos are pretty useless, but they require an across the board improvement, not just the Khorny ones :D

Terminator Trophies: Don't like. Why would someone be less afraid of Black Legion Terminators or Death Guard Terminators?

Marauder Bikers: I like the idea, but take away ALL of their ranged capabilities and they should never be Troops choices under any circumstances. Being able to zoom across the board in the last turn and claim or dispute an objective is unfair. (Again, looking at you Codex: Space Marines)

Greater Demon: What's the point of that?

Demon Weapon: Again, its not Khorne specific. Unless you do a change in general for Chaos, its unfair. Also, would your demon weapon have a drawback? That said, I very much like the idea of being able to convert mundane weapons into demon weapons. I think the same should be possible with force weapons.

Khorne Lord: Nope. Perhaps WS 7 as standard along with his 4 profile attacks (after the mark) would be enough to show it.

Allies: Much better ideas there than "the Demon Prince gets gifts from the Demon book and can bring his buddies".

All in all, some stuff is unnecessary, but as a World Eaters player, I like what you're thinking.

EmperorEternalXIX
20-10-2008, 21:33
Good crits all around. I have agreements and disagreements here and there.

The first thing is that this minidex bit is meant to be specifically addressing the long complaints of the community at large with Chaos in general. Ideally, I would have liked to do one of these for each Chaos God, which means that certain critiques here -- like that the dreadnoughts or DPs need more universal fixes rather than "the Khorne one is better" solution here. I have a few justifications that would be shown in the fluff of the final product that might make them sell more.


Customizable Berserkers: I agree, but don't get carried away. Leave the real specialization to the Chosen Berserkers, assuming you have them. Great idea. The earlier return of the Axe of Khorne suggestion will be a nice addition to them, I think. Perhaps I will make the standard berserkers as normal and then make the chosen ones all come with that new Chain Axe I made, then allow them a costly upgrade to the Axe of Khorne (with some limits, of course...maybe just the champion?).


Demon Prince: Eh, I don't like. I'm as angry at most for not being able to cross the two armies, but I also don't like one army of a race gets to specially circumvent a big restriction. (I'm look at you, Lord Macragge and your Ultramarines..."Who needs Fearless, ya noobz?). I have a lot of reservations about this one too. It was done more to appease the chaos fanbase's outcry. However, I have included fleshhounds as a separate unit in the mini dex and I made them pretty good, so I think that I can probably let the DP go as a solo killer. Many of the ideas behind him are tributes to the 3rd Ed Khorne DP of Doom, otherwise.


Parrying: No way. Kind of pointless and doesn't reflect much about the Sons of Khorne. Parrying was probably a poor word. It's more like...they stab the DP or Khorne Lord etc....the Khornie flies into a rage and stabs them back despite being wounded, etc. I thought, visually, this would work well. Also, it is a mechanic designed to offset the "fearless sucks" mentality most people have. I applied it mostly to things like the GD and DP -- stuff that, generally will fight on its own and have to deal with that sort of thing often.


Linebreaker Rhino: Not a big fan unless its reserved for cityfight scenarios. What would be cool is some supercharged upgrade with a drawback like what the Blood Angels get. The entire idea behind the Linebreaker was to give them some sort of tank with some use. I have kept their anti-tank very light throughout the dex and so I thought a smattering of anti-infantry might be in order, to take some extra heat. I gave them the vindicator but not the predator for just this reason. Long range powerful vehicles seemed out of place in the list.


Land Raider variant: Not bad. Not entirely necessary though. I agree. This was thrown in to appease the angry crowd, really. I will likely remove the second one from the dex.


Defiler variants: not necessary either. What you could do is use the slaughterfiend or whatever its called from Apocalypse reloaded. I like this idea better. It will give more variety, too.


Dreadnought: No way. Again, its removing a specific limitation on a general chaos unit for only one faction. I do think the dreds for chaos are pretty useless, but they require an across the board improvement, not just the Khorny ones A big part of this motivation is that the dread's table has been a source of contention for a long time now. I wanted to make the dreadnought more attractive as an option. It really doesn't matter how good I make it, if it has a reasonably problematic chance to inflict said horrible injuries on your own men, no one will take it. It's a tough call because if you give it better or cooler options, etc., there is still a big possibility you will just be killing yourself. Any suggestions to how I can do a dreadnought without breaking the chaos tradition and without making it unattractive would be highly appreciated.


Terminator Trophies: Don't like. Why would someone be less afraid of Black Legion Terminators or Death Guard Terminators? Again, it was just a small fluff buff. But good point. Perhaps the same upgrade with another bonus? I would hate to do "copy+paste" terminators. Maybe Terminator Berserkers? That'd be a bit much I think...especially since I was thinking of giving the Chosen Berserkers mentioned earlier the option of Terminator Armor.


Marauder Bikers: I like the idea, but take away ALL of their ranged capabilities and they should never be Troops choices under any circumstances. Being able to zoom across the board in the last turn and claim or dispute an objective is unfair. I made these guys FA, and my hope was that the drive-by ability would lead to a lot of them not shooting in order to turbo boost and use the move. The drive-by rule has a proviso that you must move the full 24" for the boost, so I am figuring it will be a choice for players, i.e. "Do I inflict some Str6 hits and be out of position or do I charge normally and get stuck in?" The unit numbers 6 models max, so this will also encourage less shooting as the drive- by option can hit multiple units if they are close enough together.


Greater Demon: What's the point of that? Mostly, a throwback to the 3rd ed "I WILL DEVOUR YOUR ENTIRE FLANK EFFORTLESSLY" bloodthirster. I suppose it'd make more sense if I just armed him with an axe of khorne and gave him less initial attacks. Since I have to give him wings by fluff, I should tone him down anyhow.


Demon Weapon: Again, its not Khorne specific. Unless you do a change in general for Chaos, its unfair. Also, would your demon weapon have a drawback? That said, I very much like the idea of being able to convert mundane weapons into demon weapons. I think the same should be possible with force weapons. I have a reason for this. I do not believe daemon weapons should have drawbacks, typically. In all of the fluff we do not see chaos leaders wrestling with their weapons for control in the midst of battle; this is always a more psychological behind-the-scenes struggle (the novel Fulgrim jumps to mind). THe simple explanation is that a Khorne Daemon Weapon likely just wants blood to spill...I see no reason for the thing to object to its wielder using it to kill someone. Instead I universalized the benefit, more or less to allow it to be a weapon upgrade rather than its own standalone thing. I believe the normal Khorne daemon weapon is vastly too polarized; to not attack at all is ridiculous, and to have as many as what, 17 attacks, is equally ridiculous. I would like to have a drawback but currently I don't; mainly, it's point cost would be the only area I would make it have any difficulty.


Khorne Lord: Nope. Perhaps WS 7 as standard along with his 4 profile attacks (after the mark) would be enough to show it. I currently have him at WS8, as I expect the scale shown by the new SM list to put normal Chaos Lords at WS7. I gave him 4 attacks on his profile, as well as the option to become "Possessed" and gain str5 and some other more minor goodies.


Allies: Much better ideas there than "the Demon Prince gets gifts from the Demon book and can bring his buddies". I agree but I am not sure where to go with it. I may take this option out entirely, as I feel the Flesh Hounds I included are good enough to support daemon-heavy lists.


All in all, some stuff is unnecessary, but as a World Eaters player, I like what you're thinking. I am admittedly not as educated on the World Eaters as one should be for such a project, but I think I will post up the actual Dex I have right now and see what you guys think overall. The help of the Khorne community is greatly appreciated!

EmperorEternalXIX
20-10-2008, 21:45
Sorry to double post but here is the actual PDF I am working on.

A few things:

1.) Many units will say both Fearless and Stubborn. I am still whittling down who I want to have what and so some have both right now, this is just to make it easier for me to remove or change them later.

2.) This has not been updated since before my last post, so none of the current critiques have been accounted for yet.

Let me know what you all think.

KharnTheBetrayer01
20-10-2008, 23:24
What definition of Khorne are we using here?

Master of warfare?

Cares not from where the blood flows, as long as it does?

Skulls for the Skull throne?

They all give a different theme to a good writer, and seeing as this is a Fandex presumably it doesn't need to be dumbed down till preschoolers can understand.

Customizable Berserkers: I like it, if berzerkers are to be core choices then they need to be a little more adaptable. But try to keep then at a maximum 12" range, for lore purposes

Khornate Chain Axe really should have one or the other ability. Especially since Berzerkers are...well...Berserk. they are not the most tactically minded people ever.

Bloodthirsty Special Rule: Perfect! Finally those damn Choppa boys will get their just desserts! (Hate orks and their open topped vehicles... Hate them)

Daemon Prince grants access to using Codex: Daemons Khorne units: If you use a Daemon Prince, you can take units from the Daemon codex as "Allies". < Meh, try to leave other army list out of it, or people will cry (OP) from half a world away. Especially if deamons are involved. Can we all please picture Kharn and Skulltaker in the same team for just a moment?

Parrying No Retreat!: Makes some kind of sense, but maybe instead just give chosen their full attacks even if they die. Deaththroes or some such.

Linebreaker Rhino: The only chance anyone has of stopping this list is to kill them before they reach. Giving the Khornate troops better transport just seems unfair. That and, as a Berzerkers would be driving... They would only ever run people down anyway

Improved Rhino: Same as above

Land Raider changes: Same as above

Defiler Variants: Defilers are pretty good as it is. and with the extra CC weapon they carve through units like nothing.

The dreadnaught Idea...Crazed makes them less crazed? Doesn't seem to fit. Maybe just stick with the old "Extra attack, always counts as CC craziness" rule

Terminator War Trophies: Works for me, and they do have them modeled on their shoulder-pads

Marauder Bikers: YES! Crazed Khornate worshipping maniacs driving hell for leather with an axe in one hand and ANOTHER AXE in the other, driving with their knees only to hurl themselves headlong into the enemy. Love it. Its what one of my Lords is based on

Greater Daemon changes: Meh, leave out the Greater Deamons. If you want a bloodthirster, collect Deamons.

Daemon weapon changes: Bring back the Deamon Weapons from the old Book of Khorne. They were fantastic, characterful, and fun to use. And it gave Chaos some distinction from space marines outside of "We are meaner, grr"

Khorne Lord: Makes sense to me. He's hard as nails in CC, so he should be hard to bring down.

Thinking about cultists/daemons allies: Just use the (now illegal and therefore not an army... I think) LatD rules if you need Imperial Guard type troops

Army wide rules, Obviously furious charge should be standard. Khornate chain-axe replaces CC weapon, all people cost a little more than they would to compensate. More WS/S, less BS/I/LD (they are insane maniacs, who are they going to listen to?)

Just my input.

Son of Sanguinius
21-10-2008, 02:26
My thoughts on the PDF:

First, nice job.

My issues are:

Khornate Chainaxe, if you want to give it a benefit at all, should be given a -1 to armor saves and stick to it. How an entire unit of berserkers can wound a wraithlord on 3+ is beyond me.

Dangerous Terrain test for Marauders if they use Strike with Speed.

Make War Trophies an Aspiring Champion specific.

I like the forward at all costs rule.

Cultists and Zealots are kind of boring. Probably work better in an allied LatD list.

WS 8 is too much for Khorne Lord.

BS 8 is too much for Khorne Prince.

Bloodthirster statline I think should be
WS- 10, BS- 5, S-7, T-6, W-4, I-5, A-5, Ld-10, Sv-3+

Born of Bloodshed: interesting, but probably needs play testing to see its effectiveness

Regular CSM should be required to take the Mark of Khorne or be taken out completely. Khorne is the god of war and rage, both of which can be and are expressed through a gun, so they should be given the Mark with some benefit different than +1 Attack, like sharpshooters from the Imperial Guard codex, though that may be too powerful

Lord Humongous
07-06-2009, 19:52
I don't like the Khorne chainaxs for one reason; only one in five berserkers (plus the champ if you choose that over other options) can have one. That's a PITA wysiwyg wise; I'm pretty sure most Khorne players do like I did, and used chainaxes on as many models as they can when assembling their berserkers.

Maybe consider a lesser effect, but allowing as many berserkers as want one to have one? Or making it a unit upgrade?