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Lanparth
19-10-2008, 08:36
I love his rules. Out of the entire new Chaos Codex he's the only mini, rules wise, I think honestly got given some real justice. But honestly, should he finally go? Abbadon and Archaon are essentially the same. At their core they are really supposed to be one another. But really, does 40k really need that? I personally find Abby's incompetence revolting. And he's had 10,000 years. 10,000. What happened? Did. Did his thing fall off once he got the Talon of Horus? He was supposed to be so badass, so cool. Instead he's an incompetent who kills anyone who shows any signs of innovation under him, as that is a threat to his power base.

He's like a Stalin who never learned.

Am I the only one who'd like to see a civil war errupt in the Eye of Terror over Abbadon's supposed leadership? The frustrated and the young(er) Chaos Marines, striving to overthrow the established big fish?

I think GW should honestly play up on that, and honestly eventually kill off Abby for just being so... lackluster in his overall outcomes. An epic battle on the bridge of the Planet Killer, where he seems to be winning the whole time, for just one moment of weakness and being felled by whoever may have you? That would be excellent.

I can imagine the Cult forces being split between the two sides, and it being up in the air between the Undivided Legions.

Iron Warriors, Black Legion doing battle against the Word Bearers and Night Lords, with the Alpha Legion keeping out (For being so far away from the EoT). I think that'd be awesome.

Basically play up on the main generals on both sides. A new Black Legion Character, a new Iron Warrior, a Dark Apostle, and a Night Lords warlord. Having Abbadon felled near the end by the Apostle or Night Lord, and then having the shift in social, political, and military power towards the Word Bearers and Night Lords, and away from the Iron Warriors and Black Legion (or at least those not under command of their Primarchs)

I think that'd be awesome, and then you can have a new character, a non-Black Legion character, take up the prominent role, to destroy the Imperium, either another Warmaster, or the Apostle of War.

At this point, I think the biggest thing holding Chaos back, is Abbadon himself.

Moress
19-10-2008, 08:56
I don't see any reason why the Iron Warriors would want to help anyone but their selves let alone Abby and his Black Legion. As far as I know, with the exception of the 10th? and 13th Crusades (When they raided Hydra Cortes or w/e that planet was in Storm of Iron), the Iron Warriors never really participated in the Black Crusades.

Also, I don't know why Night Lord and Word Bearers would Ally with each other either since like the Iron Warriors, each of the traiter legions basically looks out for them selves and couldn't give a rats ass about what happens to Abby, the Black Legion, or chaos in general.

You have to remember, Black Crusades aren't exactly "organized." It's basically Abby or whoever getting his legions together, inviting whoever else wants to hop along for the ride, and that's it.

The other legions or even renegades are NOT obliged to join a Black Crusade just because Abby rolls out of bed one morning and says, "Hmm.... I think I would like to try to ravage the Imperium again on this fine, gloomy morning."

Abbadon isn't exactly holding back Chaos either, to be honost he is probably one of the most aggressive and prominent Chaos Characters. For 10,000 years he has led some of the largest "organized" forces of chaos from the EoT to do battle with the Imperium, and his last 2-3 have been pretty successful so far. His main goal isn't really to go to Terra in one go, this would be impossible under the current circumstances, but rather to nibble away slowly at the IoM like he is now untill finally he finds a crack in the dam that is the Imperium.

Lanparth
19-10-2008, 09:07
Its not even Terra in one go. He still hasn't even taken *Cadia*.

And during conflicts, desperate situations create desperate allies.

ihockert
19-10-2008, 09:07
I don't think Abaddon should get the axe because honestly he has done about as well as anyone can. I seriously doubt any other Chaos leader could pull off a Black Crusade except a Daemon Primarch.

Heck, in the Thirteenth Crusade he's come pretty close to overwhelming Cadia and Chaos did win the Eye of Terror campaign. The truth of the matter is even if Abaddon were replaced it wouldn't accomplish anything because GW is not going to let Chaos overrun the Imperium until the game stops selling well.

Lanparth
19-10-2008, 09:11
Its not even a matter of "Overwhelming" the Imperium, some of it would also be a *real* change of the Status quo for the forces of Chaos.

Moress
19-10-2008, 09:20
Abbadon has done alot for Chaos in comparison to alot of the other Chaos Characters.

Out of all of the living Daemon Primarchs, only two have done anything, Angron and Magnus. Angron FAILED to destroy a pathetic Hiveworld (A ***Single planet***), and Magnus failed to destroy the homeworld of the Space Wolves, despite the fact 90% of the SW's were out lollygagging halfway across the galaxy.

Then you look at the other Chaos characters and what they have done. Typhus likes to relive the pirates of the carabean ride from Disney Land spreading around plauges and making Zombies, not exactly super helpful, or Fabuis playing operation on anything that moves. Hell, what has Kharne, Lucius or my personaly favorite Hourun (lol, what a joke of a Chaos Special) done?

Abby on the other hand has captured 2? Blackstone Fortressess, ravaged entires sectors on multiple occasions, and even gained a foothold on Cadia (One of the most heavily defended plaents in the Milky Way).

StormWulfen
19-10-2008, 09:44
why this hate for the iron warriors? i don't care about the black legion or abby but leave the iron warriors alone their far too neglected as it is

cailus
19-10-2008, 09:57
I'd say Abbadon's time has come. He is an absolute failure of a warlord. It is time his head was removed from his incompetent shoulders.

Chaos needs a new Warmaster - someone who is capable of tearing the Imperium asunder.

keatsmeister
19-10-2008, 10:21
At least Abaddon tries. When was the last time you heard of Mortarion or Lorgar getting down to business? :rolleyes:

cailus
19-10-2008, 10:24
At least Abaddon tries. When was the last time you heard of Mortarion or Lorgar getting down to business? :rolleyes:

Who says it should be one of the old guard? Perhaps a new Warmaster could arise.

keatsmeister
19-10-2008, 10:31
Who says it should be one of the old guard? Perhaps a new Warmaster could arise.

It'd almost have to be, 'cause clearly the old guard don't give a smeg :p Cypher would be an interesting if controversial choice

unclejimbo827
19-10-2008, 10:32
LEAVE ABADDON ALONE HES ONLY HUMAN

erm... anyway... I thought chaos took over Cadia in the Eye of Terror campaign, but have found themselves surrounded by the imperial navy? That's progress. Kind of.

wolftime
19-10-2008, 10:34
He just needs a new model. Then you'll all love him again :P

mindtaker
19-10-2008, 10:39
LEAVE ABADDON ALONE HES ONLY HUMAN

erm... anyway... I thought chaos took over Cadia in the Eye of Terror campaign, but have found themselves surrounded by the imperial navy? That's progress. Kind of.

Im not sure what happened.......but i was under the impression that the imperium holds cadia, but only by a thread. The cadian Gate can be crossed without imediate opposision from the imperial navy.

- back on topic - the Chaos Marines don't have the strength to "win" any protracted campagins but there very good at fullfilling the objectives of a Black Crusade. The Gothic War was about knicking off with a couple of blackstones and it worked, Eye of Terror was about opening the Chaos Gate and that worked as well.

cailus
19-10-2008, 10:39
He just needs a new model. Then you'll all love him again :P

Not at all.

I think having some young upstart lop Abbaddon's head off would be a great new way to restart the timeline.

Also does anyone get the impression that the entire current plotline is locked into some sort of stagnant quagmire.

Lanparth
19-10-2008, 10:48
I never said I wanted an old guard to knock off Abby's head. An ambitious young fanatic from the Word Bearers, or a once thought killed competent underling of Abbadon's, or someone from any other major undivided faction in the EoT should be the ones to eliminate him. The young taking the mantle (aggressively) from the old.

38.
19-10-2008, 10:57
Ababbadabbadoo is possibly one of the worst generals ever. But he is the unifier of the most individualistic and self centered marines in existance. Thats.. something.

Plus if you were 10,000 years old; had fought in the great crusade and know your primarch personally (as ab's and the old boyz do) how could you follow an upstart. You couldn't. You expend all your resources to reclaim your supposed superiority.

You also have to realise of course abby doesn't like innovation or indepedance, He rules the rule-less. The only way to do that is with an iron fist. Your either a lord or a minion in a chaos army there is no in between.

shin'keiro
19-10-2008, 10:58
Should Abbadon Finally Get the Axe?


well the amount of times my armies have killed him..... lol

Lanparth
19-10-2008, 10:59
These guys are also not ignorant of strategy and tactics, nor history, 38. Abby, and ANY other Chaos Lord, would know skilled officers under them taking initiative is one of the main ways to win a conflict, Chaos or no.

Bluedestiny
19-10-2008, 11:00
lets bring in Little "Horus"??? we never knew did he die or not. Also is Abby becoming a emo more and more in 5th Ed? He is the super warmaster of chaos, but noooo my sword won't listen... *smack in face by a Guardsman and dies.....

MALICIOUS LOGIC
19-10-2008, 11:01
I agree 100%

It's hard to take a "villian" seriously after they've failed 13 times...

I'm a little suprised the fanbois haven't come to Abbadon's defense. There are Chaos players who swear he's a great threat. But I don't know... Maybe he'll do better on his 49098374598374975th Black Crusade. These where all just warm ups.

~Logic

keatsmeister
19-10-2008, 11:02
well the amount of times my armies have killed him..... lol

I forced him to teleport out of the game in a 2nd edition game once, apparently he didn't like being charged by Huron Blackheart, a Red Corsairs Chief Librarian with the Quickening and a Terminator bodyguard with Lightning Claws and Thunder Hammers ;)

cailus
19-10-2008, 11:06
how could you follow an upstart.

For the simple reason that he is a failure.

The Chaos Gods do not take kindly to failure. Chaos itself is the rule of the most powerful. With the string of defeats that Abbaddon has, sooner or later he would lose support.

Remember that he didn't always hold a unified sway over Chaos - indeed the Black Legion was humiliated after the heresy and it was only Abbaddon that rebuilt its reputation as the premier Chaos legion.

However I'd say that Abbaddon's time is done. He has not really furthered the cause of Chaos much except losing 13 Black Crusades and who knows how many other smaller wars.

philbrad2
19-10-2008, 11:17
I love his rules. Out of the entire new Chaos Codex he's the only mini, rules wise, I think honestly got given some real justice. But honestly, should he finally go? Abbadon and Archaon are essentially the same. At their core they are really supposed to be one another. But really, does 40k really need that? I personally find Abby's incompetence revolting. And he's had 10,000 years. 10,000. What happened? Did. Did his thing fall off once he got the Talon of Horus? He was supposed to be so badass, so cool. Instead he's an incompetent who kills anyone who shows any signs of innovation under him, as that is a threat to his power base.

Of course Abbadon does have 'limited' forces compared to that of the Imperium the fact the traitor legions are still operating 10,000 years after the Heresy is big tick in their box. Aside from the background Chaos needs as focal point, a bad guy. The Despolier is it like him or loath he he's an integral part of the Chaos SM mythos for GW. I really doubt he'll be replaced any time soon. After all Eldrad is 'dead' and still pops up on numerous battlefields :)


He's like a Stalin who never learned.Think he's a little bit worse than that to be honest. :)



Am I the only one who'd like to see a civil war erupt in the Eye of Terror over Abbadon's supposed leadership? The frustrated and the young(er) Chaos Marines, striving to overthrow the established big fish?Read the background, especially the 2nd ed Chaos codex, the Traitor Legions are pitting themselves agaisnt each other all the time at the behest of their warlords and patron gods. Civil War? Well unlikely Chaos has so many factions that two opposing sides are not likely to be coming forward. In fact what happened in the 13thBC - Abbadon uniting the Legions (temporarily) to go kill the Imperium is more of a likely event. Plus Abbadon is not the Warmaster of chaos he's head of the Black Legion and leads the BC's, the Legions are controlled by their own warlords who will agree to fight for Chaos (or themselves) as a part of a BC


I think GW should honestly play up on that, and honestly eventually kill off Abby for just being so... lackluster in his overall outcomes. An epic battle on the bridge of the Planet Killer, where he seems to be winning the whole time, for just one moment of weakness and being felled by whoever may have you? That would be excellent.Why? The previous BC's have been written into fluff by GW, they aren't going to write "And lo the hordes of Chaos spilled out of the EoT, crushed the Imperium and turned the Galaxy to Chaos! - THE END!" are they? Just shows when the BC is put in the hands of players as it was in '03, Chaos have actually managed to give the Imperium a good 'kicking'. Up to then the Imperium has always repelled chaos forces and saved the day, in fact we've started to see (finally) the outcome of this in 40K as GW have introduced into the timeline the 'Time of ending' into 40K , 13thBC work by Chaos I feel played a good part in this shift, to date the Imperium has been hanging on by the skin of its teeth, now its starting to lose its hold.

Abbadon will take (partial) credit for this in his character and background but the actions of Chaos and whether it wins or loses in the 40K universe, are tied to Abbadon regardless of what Legion or power win/loses as he is a figurehead for Chaos.


I can imagine the Cult forces being split between the two sides, and it being up in the air between the Undivided Legions.Again fluffy - but unlikely to happen such is the animosity between some Chaos forces there is no way they would simply split into two factions and fight. Read the fluff, chaos is a very fragmented force, like the Orks, when it pulls together as one it can achieve big goals.


Iron Warriors, Black Legion doing battle against the Word Bearers and Night Lords, with the Alpha Legion keeping out (For being so far away from the EoT). I think that'd be awesome.Read Black Sun Dead Sky, the IW are pitted against each other in that. The clean division of forces into factions wouldn't happen and if it did you'd see a lot of shifting of sides as the fortunes of each faction waxed and waned - who wants to be on the losing side?


Basically play up on the main generals on both sides. A new Black Legion Character, a new Iron Warrior, a Dark Apostle, and a Night Lords warlord. Having Abbadon felled near the end by the Apostle or Night Lord, and then having the shift in social, political, and military power towards the Word Bearers and Night Lords, and away from the Iron Warriors and Black Legion (or at least those not under command of their Primarchs)I'm sure all Chaos players would like to see their Primarch give a mini and rules but they would just be stupidly powerful. New characters, well when the Traitor Legions codex comes along in whatever form, I'm expecting new characters and Legion based ones at that. I could see the likes of Honsou and Erebus on the 40K battlefield. with their Legions.


I think that'd be awesome, and then you can have a new character, a non-Black Legion character, take up the prominent role, to destroy the Imperium, either another Warmaster, or the Apostle of War.Unlikely we'll see it, Abbadon is firmly in places as the figurehead of Chaos. If you read the Heresy books there are lots more characters coming to the fore but i doubt we'll see the Despoiler removed. Its a bit like Marneus Calgar is fior the SM's regardless of what Chapter you play, he's a figurehead for the SM's I see Abbadon in the same light. Think I've used him a couple of times in 13(ish) years of playing chaos I for one prefer to use my own commanders than GW special characters it helps build a story up for them and their achievements (or failures) in the games they play, the foes they fight and the deeds they do. I for one am quite happy to see Abbadon in Codex: CSM as a character in the story of Chaos, he's just that but he's not the be-all and end-all of Chaos.


At this point, I think the biggest thing holding Chaos back, is Abbadon himself.I don't think that at all, the only thing holding chaos back is GW and a very thin red line of Imperial resistance :)

Iron within ....

PhilB
:chrome:

Moress
19-10-2008, 11:23
.... Iron Without!

Phil just about hit everything square in the head.

Chaos Undecided
19-10-2008, 11:26
I think being the hier apparent to Horus he is the one character that can unite all the warring factions that now make up the Chaos Legions into a cohesive force to attack the Imperium, I dont think they could create a new character from scratch to rise to that level of authority and influence that easily. They dont seem to want to have the demon primarchs running around in regular 40k environment at least so most of them seem to have gone half mad and spend all their time messing around on their own personal daemon worlds not caring about anything else.

More importantly do you actually think Chaos Power's are in a hurry to obtain final victory over the galaxy? They're having far too much fun watching the ongoing struggle and they've got all the time in existences as far as they're concerned. Once they've won things are going to get a bit boring.

Hellgore
19-10-2008, 12:49
well the amount of times my armies have killed him..... lol

heehee... that's how it works around our games, too... Even the chaos players have a saying: "Never use a general of the Undivided Chaos starting with 'A'" ;)

As a staunch imperial defender I say: let him be where he is, he may be a real pita but at least he's not truly progressing. :))

Sir_Turalyon
19-10-2008, 13:04
Abaddon is fine as he is, and his characterful incompetence is part of what makes personality of Chaos.

This said, part of my chaos army in making will be hardcore Sons of Horus who consider Abaddon an upstart, not worth being successor of Horus. Death to the false Warmaster and such.

DantesInferno
19-10-2008, 13:07
I think it's probably worth pointing out, contrary to most of the posters in this thread, that Abaddon is in fact a very able Warmaster. The mere fact that he had been unable to break out of the Eye for 10 000 years does not, in itself, mean that he's incompetent. Given the massive disadvantage that the Chaos forces are at when compared to the Imperium, it's unlikely that even Horus himself would have been able to do any better. Not only do the Imperial forces have overwhelming numerical and logistical advantages, but they have also held the strategically vital Cadian Gate ever since the Traitor Legions were driven into the Eye following the Heresy. Finally, the Imperial forces are far more cohesive than the disparate forces of Chaos that Abaddon has under his command.

And lets not belittle Abaddon's achievements too much - at long last he's breached the Cadian Gate in meaningful numbers, allowing Chaos forces to seep into the thinly stretched Imperium, creating footholds outside the Eye. Not to mention the Gothic War, in which he was able to capture some of the most powerful weapons in the galaxy.

Moreover, it's hard to imagine Abaddon being challenged for command any time soon. Given Abaddon's leadership style, he's likely to brutally execute anyone who even looks like being able to mount an effective challenge to his rule. You can bet there would have been extensive purges of the Black Legion hierarchy throughout the millennia to ensure loyalty to the boss, and frankly none of the other Legions have the ability or motivation to organise a coalition of the Legions. It's really only the descendants of Horus who could organise the Traitor forces.

Rabid Bunny 666
19-10-2008, 13:19
I agree 100%

It's hard to take a "villian" seriously after they've failed 13 times...



Ultimate victory has never been the aim of the first 12 crusades, the Crusade in the Gothic sector got him 2 Blackstone fortresses, others have taken astropathic positions, and after the IWs fulfilled their pledge to steal geneseed stock so they were no longer in debt to Abaddon, i think he'll have the upper hand.

and to people saying that the 13th Black Crusade was a failure; wasn't 70% of Cadia's surface controlled by Chaos?

arcane
19-10-2008, 14:03
Abbaddon is just like any other saturday morning kids show bad guy. Or a bond villain. Or most comic book villains. To them failure is constant because we all know that good beats evil always. Right?

Mind you I would like to see a coup attempt. I mean come on, megatron had starscream, Doctor evil had number 2 etc etc.

Morganstern
19-10-2008, 14:03
How is Abbadon an incompetent warmaster. Firstly to adress the statement that Abbadon has failed 13 times. Abbadon has not led all of the black crusades, despite what the current codex says, and the ones he has have been a success in one form or another. Lets look at Abbadon's first black crusade where he plunged an entire world into war just to get his hands on the deamon sword Drach'Nyen. Also there is the Gothic war where Abbadon got what he wanted, the Blackstone fortresses. Finally he plunges the entire Cadian gate into war and at the end of the eye of terror campaign the forces of chaos hold most of the worlds within the Cadian gate. these are not the actions of a failure.

aad
19-10-2008, 14:12
he has not even taken cadia is being said so i go from under the rock and explain
:D

on the latest black crusade abbadon had to face:

-175 marine company,s that,s 17500 marines (not to mention escord squads)

-about 1500 regiments of guards(that is about 15.000.000 guardsmen)
(not to mention the armoured regiments)

-large households of sisters,maleus,deamonhunters etc etc

-3 titan legions,2 demi legions,psyker titans,87 skitari regiments, 4 ordinatus(yes the badass guns:p) and 6 adeptus households.

-the fleet consists of 21 marinebattlebarges,150 marine strikecruisers,200 marine escort squadrons,2 heavy cruisers,24 battleships,34 cruiser squadrons,51 escort squadrons and mucho other extra,s


that is a serious force to be reckoned with. and i know that there are lots of marines and deamons and titans and fleetbarges on abbaddons site but its not to be taken so lightly.

and then there are still the other forces in the galaxy, billions upon trillions of guardsmen, hundreds of other chapters, and thousands of titans and battlefleets that are protecting the imperium.
i know there a lot of aliens, heretics and unclean to be purged, but the imperium is not so weak as gw would do believe us it is.

gw is a lot of the time so enthousiastic that the give an idea about how big the imperium is and on the other hand they are saying that these are troubled times for the imperium of men is teethering on the very brink of extinction.

yeah well to give some idea of how strong the imperium is:

-about 1000 chapters cointains over a million marines with tanks etc etc
-untold millions of regiments that,s trillions of guardsmen
-thousands upon thousands of armoured regiments (millions of tanks)
-30 to 50 legio titanicus each consisting of about 50 to a 100 titans
-ordinatus vehicles
-about a million of planetary defence forces
-thousands and thousands of spaceships, from small to huge.

no wonder the eldar strikes only when necessary(the imperium could wipe them out pretty easily).

tau is no match,dark eldar neither, and chaos would not be a thread either if the imperium focussed on them specifically. chaos consists only of 9 legions and about a hundred of chaos renegade chapters sure there are deamons but to put it in total, 13 crusades in 10.000 years is is a signal that in the eye of terror its not that easy to get on strength again.

the only threads to the imperium of men are: rebellion,tyranids,necrons and orks.
necrons are not that active as such, orks are too busy warring amongst themselves and tyranids can only come in fleets and the imperium knows from the battle on macgragge that if you destroy the hiveships that you pretty much destroy the entire new batch of tyranids.

but that is not fitting in the line that gw is wanting it to go although they give us that fluff themselves.

abbadon is strong and evil, but not stronger than the imperium of men.

if chaos,orks,eldar,darkeldar,tau,tyranids,necrons etc etc all would attack together yeah then its over. but that,s never gonna happen.

Chainaxe07
19-10-2008, 15:30
Hi,
well i dont much like Abbaddon, never loved the "chaos overlord" thing, and since reading of him in the horus heresy novels i really despised his one track mind and his blind loyalty to the foolish Horus.
However i find your post most intriguing.
Why should the Iron Warriors side with the Black Legion?
Most of all why on earth the Night Lords, renegades who actually despise the chaos gods and their followers, would ally with the most zealous of all the legions? And, in turn, why should the Word Bearrer ever contemplate alliyng with those they quite likely consider to be not devoted enough, if not simply unbelievers?
I suppose, while still being very distinc, Word Bearers and Black Legion are, perhaps, more likely to find common ground.
Cheers,

Chainaxe

sliganian
19-10-2008, 15:54
*sigh*
Ok, let's clear up a few things:

1. Abaddon is a Plot Device. He is the Black Hat, the Bond Villian. His job serves the critical literary task of 'never make it easy for he hero' (in this case the Imperium). It is highly unlikely he is 'going anywhere', because.....

2. The Timeline is not moving. Andy Chambers is long gone kids. The Imperium is now stuck at the precipice of 11:59 pm, 999.M41 for the long forseeable future. Get used to it.

3. The Black Crusades have not been failures. They have been pieces of a foundation towards a greater plan. As someone pointed out, the Gothic War's goal: Get Blackstones. Mission Accomplished. 13th Crusdade: open the Cadian Gate: mission accomplished.

keatsmeister
19-10-2008, 16:01
2. The Timeline is not moving. Andy Chambers is long gone kids. The Imperium is now stuck at the precipice of 11:59 pm, 999.M41 for the long forseeable future. Get used to it.

3. The Black Crusades have not been failures. They have been pieces of a foundation towards a greater plan. As someone pointed out, the Gothic War's goal: Get Blackstones. Mission Accomplished. 13th Crusdade: open the Cadian Gate: mission accomplished.

Point 3 just negated Point 2... The timeline does move. Just once in a blue moon. If it didn't there would be no 13th Black Crusade, no death of Tycho on Armageddon, etc

philbrad2
19-10-2008, 16:08
and to people saying that the 13th Black Crusade was a failure; wasn't 70% of Cadia's surface controlled by Chaos?

Amen to that. Been saying this for years. The Imperium may control the space lanes but with Cadia swarming over with Chaos forces it doesn't count for much.

As an Iron Warrior I'm probably the last one to extol the virtues of the Black Legion's 'First Captain' but with limited forces over a fairly narrow and concentrated area of space Chaos are very much on the offence around the Cadia Gate.



Mind you I would like to see a coup attempt. I mean come on, megatron had starscream, Doctor evil had number 2 etc etc.

Zaraphiston was very much in the plotting no.2 role and he's been dealt with.

All together now MWWWHAHAHAAAAHAHAHA!, MWWWHAHAHAAAAHAHAHA!, MWWWHAHAHAAAAHAHAHA!




*sigh*
Ok, let's clear up a few things:

1. Abaddon is a Plot Device. He is the Black Hat, the Bond Villian. His job serves the critical literary task of 'never make it easy for he hero' (in this case the Imperium). It is highly unlikely he is 'going anywhere', because.....

Agreed every piece needs bad guys and a head bad guy in particular!


2. The Timeline is not moving. Andy Chambers is long gone kids. The Imperium is now stuck at the precipice of 11:59 pm, 999.M41 for the long forseeable future. Get used to it.

I'd dispute that to a degree, we were promised a movement with 4th ed which didn't happen, but we've seen a pretty fundamental shift with 5th ed, the Imperium is failing, its under assault from all sorts of threats not just Chaos. Ok we might be stuck at a minute to midnight as GW don't have the kahunas to move into M42; But for the threats to the Imperium to come to the fore this much is unprecedented in 40K and is one of the excellent things in the background that has 'advanced' with 5th ed.


3. The Black Crusades have not been failures. They have been pieces of a foundation towards a greater plan. As someone pointed out, the Gothic War's goal: Get Blackstones. Mission Accomplished. 13th Crusdade: open the Cadian Gate: mission accomplished.

Another thing I've been saying for years, 13thBC was a 'biggie' earlier BC's have set the scene for the battle for the Cadian Gate. It's part of a step towards greater things if GW want to take this on. One thing the current Codex: CSM has bought is renegades more to the fore and their contribution to the cause of Chaos. Chaos isn't confined to the EoT and the Legions (damned never thought I'd type that if you're aware of me feelings on the current codex.) Hopefully GW will expand on the Cadian Gate and actions by the Renegades in the future and have the guts to take the time line forward properly.

PhilB
:chrome:

borithan
19-10-2008, 16:26
Also does anyone get the impression that the entire current plotline is locked into some sort of stagnant quagmire.And welcome to the 40k background...



For the simple reason that he is a failure.

The Chaos Gods do not take kindly to failure. Chaos itself is the rule of the most powerful. With the string of defeats that Abbaddon has, sooner or later he would lose support.Hmm... has he actually been defeated? As far as I get the background he suffers even more from what people blame the Tau for: Even when he loses, he wins. The Gothic War saw the Imperium driving the attackers off, but by the end of it they had suffered serious damage in the area, and Abbadon had got what he needed (Blackstone fortresses). In that planet in the rulebook the Chaos are defeated, again, but Abbadon escapes beforehand, as he has achieved what he wanted (ruining the... was it a forgeworld?). And the 13th Black Crusade was a victory, even if not a totally overwhelming one.

Archeon on the other hand does seem to have failed too many times.



-about 1500 regiments of guards(that is about 15.000.000 guardsmen)
(not to mention the armoured regiments)Actually, we cannot make any conclusions about how many guardsmen that is, as regiments do not have fixed size. Some are "regiment" or brigade sized, some are divisional in size, some are probably the size of battalions, and some are even as large as divisions, and there may be larger ones.

Iracundus
19-10-2008, 16:40
And welcome to the 40k background...

Hmm... has he actually been defeated? As far as I get the background he suffers even more from what people blame the Tau for: Even when he loses, he wins. The Gothic War saw the Imperium driving the attackers off, but by the end of it they had suffered serious damage in the area, and Abbadon had got what he needed (Blackstone fortresses).

Actually he did not get what he needed. His original quest was to get all 6 Blackstone Fortresses. At his best he got control of 3. Then he got defeated, and one had to be left behind as it was drained of power, then all of them self destructed except for the 2 he managed to make off with. Then he has potentially lost another one during the 13th Black Crusade to the Necrons, depending on whether that "rumor" report in the EoT results is true or not. So he only got 1 Fortress out of the 6 he was originally aiming for. The Gothic War was a failure in that sense considering the amount of time and fleet strength expended.

However the 13th was a success, though not an unqualified success it still nonetheless managed the breaching of the Gate. No matter how much some Imperial players may try to spin doctor or be in denial, the 13th Black Crusade was a victory for Chaos/Disorder.



And the result is...Victory for Chaos! Not a complete victory, the forces of Order have held the line in many places and Cadia itself still defies the Arch Warmaster Abaddon. BUt nonetheless over eight weeks the forces of Disorder have consistently out-fought and outmanoevred their opponents across the warzones of the Eye of Terror. - Death by a Thousand Cuts, WD, Andy Chambers

People can check out this link
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151201&highlight=Allied+command+council&page=5

where I post the results of the major sectors in the EoT campaign during the 13th Black Crusade, verbatim. Abaddon didn't fail with the 13th Crusade. He may not have entirely succeeded but it was more success than failure.

In that planet in the rulebook the Chaos are defeated, again, but Abbadon escapes beforehand, as he has achieved what he wanted (ruining the... was it a forgeworld?). And the 13th Black Crusade was a victory, even if not a totally overwhelming one.

Archeon on the other hand does seem to have failed too many times.

Actually, we cannot make any conclusions about how many guardsmen that is, as regiments do not have fixed size. Some are "regiment" or brigade sized, some are divisional in size, some are probably the size of battalions, and some are even as large as divisions, and there may be larger ones.[/QUOTE]

mechu95
19-10-2008, 16:47
he has not even taken cadia is being said so i go from under the rock and explain
:D

on the latest black crusade abbadon had to face:

-175 marine company,s that,s 17500 marines (not to mention escord squads)

-about 1500 regiments of guards(that is about 15.000.000 guardsmen)
(not to mention the armoured regiments)

-large households of sisters,maleus,deamonhunters etc etc

-3 titan legions,2 demi legions,psyker titans,87 skitari regiments, 4 ordinatus(yes the badass guns:p) and 6 adeptus households.

-the fleet consists of 21 marinebattlebarges,150 marine strikecruisers,200 marine escort squadrons,2 heavy cruisers,24 battleships,34 cruiser squadrons,51 escort squadrons and mucho other extra,s


that is a serious force to be reckoned with. and i know that there are lots of marines and deamons and titans and fleetbarges on abbaddons site but its not to be taken so lightly.

and then there are still the other forces in the galaxy, billions upon trillions of guardsmen, hundreds of other chapters, and thousands of titans and battlefleets that are protecting the imperium.
i know there a lot of aliens, heretics and unclean to be purged, but the imperium is not so weak as gw would do believe us it is.

gw is a lot of the time so enthousiastic that the give an idea about how big the imperium is and on the other hand they are saying that these are troubled times for the imperium of men is teethering on the very brink of extinction.

yeah well to give some idea of how strong the imperium is:

-about 1000 chapters cointains over a million marines with tanks etc etc
-untold millions of regiments that,s trillions of guardsmen
-thousands upon thousands of armoured regiments (millions of tanks)
-30 to 50 legio titanicus each consisting of about 50 to a 100 titans
-ordinatus vehicles
-about a million of planetary defence forces
-thousands and thousands of spaceships, from small to huge.

no wonder the eldar strikes only when necessary(the imperium could wipe them out pretty easily).

tau is no match,dark eldar neither, and chaos would not be a thread either if the imperium focussed on them specifically. chaos consists only of 9 legions and about a hundred of chaos renegade chapters sure there are deamons but to put it in total, 13 crusades in 10.000 years is is a signal that in the eye of terror its not that easy to get on strength again.

the only threads to the imperium of men are: rebellion,tyranids,necrons and orks.
necrons are not that active as such, orks are too busy warring amongst themselves and tyranids can only come in fleets and the imperium knows from the battle on macgragge that if you destroy the hiveships that you pretty much destroy the entire new batch of tyranids.

but that is not fitting in the line that gw is wanting it to go although they give us that fluff themselves.

abbadon is strong and evil, but not stronger than the imperium of men.

if chaos,orks,eldar,darkeldar,tau,tyranids,necrons etc etc all would attack together yeah then its over. but that,s never gonna happen.


A lot of what your saying is true, but that last statement is just...lame. True, Dark Eldar are microscopic in numbers. There's only 12-15 Craftworlds left. Necrons and Tau aren't a huge threat either.

There's a HUGE "but" though. I'll start with Nids...only 3 Hive Fleets have been encountered by the Imperium. But that doesn't mean that they're the only Hive Fleets. There's thousands of Hive Fleets, they just haven't finished eating all the other galaxies. And soon it will be time for our lovely little Milky Way to disappear.

And orks...let's think. In a normal battle the Orks outnumber Marines about 2 to one, in a footsloggers army even 3 or 4 to one. In the codex only the MAJOR clans are included. And let me quote..."If all the orks got together into a huge Waaagh! there would be nothing left of the Imperium". Now, look at the number of active Waaagh!s in the Imperium. The Orks are just really stupid. Even if Orks were smart enough to work out that if they got together dey wuld kik impirioom'z azz, they wouldn't do it. Because then there would be no-one to Waaagh! on.

Finally, Chaos. First of all, there are not 9, but 34 Chaos Legions, and the main ones being Black Legion, World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Deathguard, Emperor's Children, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Night Lords and Iron Warriors. Plus the 100 renegade Marine chapters. Plus about...10k, perhaps even 100k(?) of renegade Guard regiments. Secondly, Abby, Typhus, Kharn, Arhiman, Lucius...none of them can get Daemons to help them. Only the Chaos Gods can. Which comes to one conclusion - Chaos Gods don't like Abby, otherwise they would've helped him in every one/most of his Black Crusades.

Yes, a Blackstone Fortress, a Sword and a few planets is a LOT achieved in 10,000 years. I bow in front of you and swear loyality to you, oh, the almighty Abbadon. Not.

Tymell
19-10-2008, 16:54
I think he's doing pretty well.

Black Crusades, as has been said, aren't organised that much, it's largely Abbadon getting together those he can and wreaking some havoc, maybe with a specific goal in mind. But the Imperium is a big place, with a lot of military might behind it, and unless I'm mis-remembering background material, Abbadon pretty much has to strike from the Eye of Terror.

Think about how difficult the task he has set himself is: how disjointed all the forces of Chaos are, for example. Pulling together and managing all those he does is impressive, someone could challenge him but would they be able to pull something like that off too, get so many groups behind them? That's tricky indeed. Then there's the whole "10,000 years and no progress!" accusation. Time flows strangely in the Eye. Maybe he's been at it for 10,000 years his time, maybe more, maybe less, but if nothing else it's probably not easy to organise a campaign when you're dealing with inherently self-obsessed, ambitious, arrogant forces all fighting one another all the time and then possibly living in differing timelines as well.

He's done a fair bit, I think it would be unfair to say "He's failed 13 times". He hasn't obliterated the Imperium any of those 13 times, true, but who's to say that's his actual objective? It's all about making headway. He and his forces are pretty safe in the Eye of Terror, all they have to do is chip away at the Imperium, gain ground bit by bit, and that seems to be largely what they're doing.

Besides, remember the "real world" side of things. GW can't realistically have Abbadon "win" and overcome the Imperium. True, they could have some young upstart take over from him, but then Chaos isn't truly united like that anyway. He's not the lord of all Chaos forces, not by a long shot, a lot of the warlords are probably more concerned with their own little missions than his grand scheme.

Maybe I'm just too nostalgic about classic animated series', but I like a villain who keeps on coming back for more ;)

Of course, if you personally (or anyone) want to come up with a character with background along those lines, then go for it.

Iracundus
19-10-2008, 16:56
A lot of what your saying is true, but that last statement is just...lame. True, Dark Eldar are microscopic in numbers. There's only 12-15 Craftworlds left. Necrons and Tau aren't a huge threat either.

You cannot make up evidence to prove a point. There is never any number stated for the Dark Eldar population or for the number of Craftworlds left. All the information suggests the Necrons are a significant and growing threat as more and more become active, including activating of more of their old weaponry like the World Engine.



Yes, a Blackstone Fortress, a Sword and a few planets is a LOT achieved in 10,000 years. I bow in front of you and swear loyality to you, oh, the almighty Abbadon. Not.

The Blackstone Fortresses' power was additive. One destroyed a fleet. Two scoured a planet. Three made a star go supernova. It is unknown what 4, 5, or all 6 combined might have been able to do.

The Cadian Gate was also described as the single most heavily fortified and defended area aside from Terra itself. Assaulting the 2nd most heavily defended area in the Imperium head on and breaching the defenses and establishing a foothold in real space against that level of opposition is not insignificant.

borithan
19-10-2008, 17:05
Finally, Chaos. First of all, there are not 9, but 34 Chaos Legions,
Erm.. what? Where did these other legions come from? There are 9 Chaos Legions, unless you are not just including the SM legions.

philbrad2
19-10-2008, 17:24
Yup 9 original Traitor Legions, chapters that have gone renegade is a differing prospect.

PhilB
:chrome:

orks2134
19-10-2008, 17:27
Abaddon, the axe? What are you knuts?

sliganian
19-10-2008, 18:57
Yup 9 original Traitor Legions, chapters that have gone renegade is a differing prospect.
PhilB
:chrome:

Yeah, the influence of Renegades is a whole other thing that I am not sure the BackStory has ever tried to tackle on a large scale (aside from the Red Corsairs).

Now, what the status of the original nine is story-wise is difficult to ascertain correctly. Going from my foggy memory of their Index Astartes articles, here's some examples of how the Chaos folks are faring:

Alpha Legion: it isn't even clear how the AL have survived 10,000 years by not being in the Eye. How big or how small they are is impossible to find out. Whether they are on the 'ascent' or 'descent' is similarly murky.

Night Lords: in short, a Legion bent as much on nihlistic self-destruction as destruction of others. The IA implied that they are dwindling simply due to the reckless abandon that they go about things.

Iron Warriors: definitely on the ascent. Probably the chief rivals in raw power to the Black Legion.

Word Bearers: probably in the ascent, what with all the new planets from the EoT campaign.

Black Legion: holding at the top, more or less. I am on the side the the 13th Crusade was a success, therefore the BL's fortunes have increased.

As for the Cults:

DeathGuard: on the ascent with the sucessful run of Typhus et. al.

Emperor's Children: hard to say. Probably on the ascent.

1000 Sons: Ahriman got his arsed kicked by the Eldar in the EoT. As no more 1000 Sons are being made, the Legion would have to be considered a rare and dying breed.

WorldEaters: who can say? "Status" isn't something that occurs to them on a large scale.

gamer2456
19-10-2008, 19:05
put Kharn in charge, he know's how to lead an army

sliganian
19-10-2008, 19:20
put Kharn in charge, he know's how to lead an army

:D

Well, at least he never has to write out annual performance reviews for his staff (do any last a year)?

Stray thought just came regarding my small Alpha Legion force: the way I would want to play them is completely hosed with 5th editions "Troops only Scoring Units" bits. To me, the core of an Alpha Legion force done in the new CSM Codex would be two minimum CSM squads and three diverse Chosen squads. In 5th that would leave me at such a disadvantage it isn't funny. Oh well, that's what I'd get for playing "sub-lists". :rolleyes:

philbrad2
19-10-2008, 20:10
:D

Well, at least he never has to write out annual performance reviews for his staff (do any last a year)?

"Sit down Bezerker ... and how do you think you've done this year?"

"Well Sir ...

WHIRRRRR WHIRRRR SLASH SLASH

"Next! Can I get a mop & bucket in here please? "

The World Eaters are warbands going where they can spill blood. Hardly strong points for a career action plan :evilgrin:


Stray thoughts aside lets keep this on the topic please before we diversify to far.

PhilB
:chrome:

keatsmeister
19-10-2008, 20:47
I don't think Abaddon should necessarily be killed off, but it might be interesting if he fell from favour and spent a few years in exile. Let someone else take up the mantle for a while, only to fail miserably, then realise their downfall is all part of Abaddon's master comeback plan.

Rioghan Murchadha
19-10-2008, 21:25
Emperor's Children: hard to say. Probably on the ascent.
The EC were split into small fractured warbands following a huge war with the World Eaters.


1000 Sons: Ahriman got his arsed kicked by the Eldar in the EoT. As no more 1000 Sons are being made, the Legion would have to be considered a rare and dying breed.
This doesn't mean anything. Ahriman was denied access to the Webway in the EoT. However, he wasn't creating new ksons anyway. The bulk of the legion escaped the Space Wolves' assault on Prospero, and ended up in the EoT on the Planet of the Sorcerers. Ahriman was exiled with only his cabal of sorcerers, the guys who helped him cast the Rubric in the first place. The entire rest of the legion was turned into either a) Powerful sorcerers, or b) deathless automatons. They haven't really done much since then, other than Ahriman and his cronies, so the safest assumption is that most of them are still kicking around.


WorldEaters: who can say? "Status" isn't something that occurs to them on a large scale.
See Emperor's Children.

Ddraiglais
19-10-2008, 21:27
I don't see why you would put the IW on the side of the BL in a civil war. If the IW got involved, it is more likely they would fight against the BL. The BL betrayed Chaos by fleeing the SoT first. The IW have supported the Black Crusades less than any other legion. If anything, the IW would sit it out if there was a civil war in the EoT.

As far as Abby goes, I think GW should keep him. I do think that they need to have more of a focus on minor wars against the Imperium that featured other characters. Hopefully if we get a legion(s) dex, they will include characters from other legions. That would be a great way to introduce some fluff that isn't centered on the HH or Black Crusades.

olmsted
19-10-2008, 21:45
am i the only one here who knows that abbadon has completed his goal in every black crusade?

Ddraiglais
19-10-2008, 21:53
Oh, and for the numbers argument; nobody knows how vast the EoT is. It could be much larger than the Imperium. The Imperium probably outnumbers Chaos when it comes to CSM. However, Chaos could possibly be able to field enough mutants, traitor guard, and mortal champions to outnumber the IG and all the PDFs combined. Then there are all the daemons that would make up for the lack of marines. Of course this is all maybe and could. Noone really knows how large the EoT is. Then there's the problem of getting everyone to cooperate, logistics...

sliganian
19-10-2008, 22:48
am i the only one here who knows that abbadon has completed his goal in every black crusade?

If you discount the people that said that in this thread already, then, well, yes. :D

Victomorga
19-10-2008, 23:19
*sigh*
Ok, let's clear up a few things:

1. Abaddon is a Plot Device. He is the Black Hat, the Bond Villian. His job serves the critical literary task of 'never make it easy for he hero' (in this case the Imperium). It is highly unlikely he is 'going anywhere', because.....

2. The Timeline is not moving. Andy Chambers is long gone kids. The Imperium is now stuck at the precipice of 11:59 pm, 999.M41 for the long forseeable future. Get used to it.

3. The Black Crusades have not been failures. They have been pieces of a foundation towards a greater plan. As someone pointed out, the Gothic War's goal: Get Blackstones. Mission Accomplished. 13th Crusdade: open the Cadian Gate: mission accomplished.

2nd point aside, I agree. things move forward in the 40k universe, but only when GW feels like giving it a shot in the arm. which, admittedly, isn't very often.


I don't think Abaddon should necessarily be killed off, but it might be interesting if he fell from favour and spent a few years in exile. Let someone else take up the mantle for a while, only to fail miserably, then realise their downfall is all part of Abaddon's master comeback plan.

the problem with this is that to depict his "fall from favor," they would have to either write him differently in a codex, leaving him on the outs until the following edition came out, or write it into the next codex that he fell but has already regained his standing. the problem with the first option is the inconsistent rate codices are revised at, which would mean by the time they got around to writing him back in, people may have just lost interest. the problem with the second option is that it puts his "fall" in the past.

if only there were some sort of monthly publication relating to 40k in which they cold publish temporary rules for abaddon, reflecting a fall from grace and attempt at regaining his power.... wait! what am I saying?! if there were articles in this hypothetical publication, where would all the ads go?

I really see no problem with abaddon, people are just bored with him. as far as killing him off, I don't know that he can even die. and he has all the chaos gods backing him, so it would really take a lot to amass enough power to even be considered a threat to him.

cailus
19-10-2008, 23:22
Amen to that. Been saying this for years. The Imperium may control the space lanes but with Cadia swarming over with Chaos forces it doesn't count for much.

Erm ever hear of World War II? Those dastardly Germans controlled all of Europe yet didn't have control of the sealanes in the Atlantic. As a result they lost the war partially because the US could pour hundreds of thousands of tons of equipment across the Atlantic to her allies in Britain and the USSR. Later on that included hundreds of thousands of Doughboys to get stuck into Africa, Italy and Normandy.

Wars are won through more mundane things such a careful planning and organisation. Logistics is crucial to this. Once you've run out of fuel, food, equipment and even men, no amonut of killing of the enemy's going to win the war. The Eastern Front is proof of this. Even smaller conflicts ala Vietnam see smaller forces being able to maintain offensive operations due to logistics (in the case of Vietnam, supplies of Russian materials).

So Abbaddon and his flunkies might be able to dance on the soil of Cadia as much as they want, they probably aren't able to maintain offensive operations as they're surrounded.

Also if the Imperium decides it worthwhile, it coud simply launch an exterminatus on Cadia once they deem it too Chaos infested.



Agreed every piece needs bad guys and a head bad guy in particular!

A bad guy doesn't work in 40K because the Imerium itself is meant to be a dystopian hell. Blatant bad guys means that the Imperium is portrayed as good. But then with the kiddyifying of 40K, the portrayal of the Imperium as good guys and Chaos as bad guys.

I much preferred it when they were the two sides of the same violent and oppresive coin.

At least in Flames of War, I know my Soviets are fighting for a scumbag regime against another scumbag regime! There are no winners except the politicians, the sadistic psychopaths and the war profiteers. As it is in real life.

Also bad guys need to be competent in order to be a threat. A bad guy that loses all the time is not much of a challenge. It's like Megatron out of the Transformers. You knew that the Autobots would win because Megatron was incompetenet (personaly I think the homicidal Starscream should've taken over).

Same applies to Abbaddon - he is not some scary treat because all he generally doesn't accomplish much.





I'd dispute that to a degree, we were promised a movement with 4th ed which didn't happen, but we've seen a pretty fundamental shift with 5th ed, the Imperium is failing, its under assault from all sorts of threats not just Chaos. Ok we might be stuck at a minute to midnight as GW don't have the kahunas to move into M42; But for the threats to the Imperium to come to the fore this much is unprecedented in 40K and is one of the excellent things in the background that has 'advanced' with 5th ed.

The Imperium is only failing in the rulebook. If you read the new Marine codex, the Imperium is on the up and up with the poster boys in blue kicking serious ass and taking names all the while spreading democracy and cheap consumer goods. Huzzah!






Another thing I've been saying for years, 13thBC was a 'biggie' earlier BC's have set the scene for the battle for the Cadian Gate. It's part of a step towards greater things if GW want to take this on. One thing the current Codex: CSM has bought is renegades more to the fore and their contribution to the cause of Chaos. Chaos isn't confined to the EoT and the Legions (damned never thought I'd type that if you're aware of me feelings on the current codex.) Hopefully GW will expand on the Cadian Gate and actions by the Renegades in the future and have the guts to take the time line forward properly.

I seriously doubt they will advance the plotline and if they do it will be because some proof reader cocked up.

Treadhead_1st
19-10-2008, 23:41
Might as well post this here, was going to post this in another thread, but got warned off for it being off-topic.


To throw a bit of fuel on the 13th Crusade fire - note, I know it was a Chaos victory as WD wrote it up, and WD used the actual results of the campaign, I'm not going to go into cheating or anything, and whether GW now *wants* the Crusade to have actually failed, or all GW are just fanboys too...and I've read the other thread(s) through and through, and I know this gets heated, but an excellent argument someone put to me was this (and I really though I ought to share):

And please, don't try to flame the hell out of me for sharing. I know Chaos won, by all accounts. And I'm a Cadian player. I'm on the way as a counter-attack! The point: I go with the GW version, so a Chaos Victory.

The Cadian campagin could be seen as an Imperial victory in the following light:

1) If a victory at all, it's only a victory in the Cadian sector - re-enforcements/counter-crusade is/has being/been mounted, forces drawn from across the Imperium (all Cadian regiments recalled - that's a LOT of regiments), so the rest of the galaxy is/will be suffering. Badly.

2) Its a very, very phyrric victory at best. The Imperium hasn't won, but it's not lost - and it's not really a draw.

3) Here's the punch line: The reason it could be a victory? The Imperium still has a *toehold* on Cadia. The system is in ruins, and Chaos fleets are slipping out, and Abbaddon holds most of the ground, but 30% is still held by Imperial forces (in a rather assault-proof island fortress). The fact the Imperium controls the space helps in the fact that it means said Fortress can't simply be nuked from orbit.

But the Imperial Forces - with some of the sector, if not whole Imperial Guards' greatest military minds there too. This means that Chaos can't simply leave a rear-guard (since they may be out-played), and the Imperials are now holding out hoping that help will arrive while they're still breathing.

So Cadia isn't broken - it's not very effective, but it's not out of the fight - it's staggering around and about to go down, sure - but it's still fighting. And still bogging down some of Abbaddon's best troops.

So think of it like a Ship. The ship hits an iceberg, but manages to limp to port. It's just about to go down, the holds are full of water, but it's still sailing and still got to port, so therefore the Ship's purpose is complete. Yes, that ship may be utterly useless and require a major overhaul/repair in order to be even mildly functional, and ergo is a loss for the company that owns the ship, but it still did it's job.

The Cadian Gate - though broken by the assault, is still holding back the Warmasters' forces by nature that he still has to have himself/some of his soldiers fighting there. So though the planet needs to be reclaimed, and will need a total re-build/re-population of the sector to be a bastion once more, it's still held back the majority of the great push of Chaos. Ergo, the Bastion has done it's job.

Sure, smaller fleets can get out to raid the Imperium, but the large bulk is still engaged. Ergo, the Imperium has won a victory as Chaos is held in check - but it's cost them the entire defences of the sector, so it may be Cadia cannot be retaken no matter the counter-punch, or that even if it is retaken it can't be re-armed in time for the next Chaos assault. But the Imperium has held Chaos back, for now. A plaster over an artery wound (keeps the pressure but won't hold), or a wooden wedge in a hole in a hull (it'll slow the water to a trickle, and may expand to stop it in that hole, but there are other holes and the water level keeps rising inside) - heck, a flamer duct-taped to a machine gun (just for sci-fi bonus points).


As I said, it's a fun theory - and one that although I like to entertain, being an Imperial player, it's not one I subscribe to, since it (was) stated in the fluff Chaos won, so Chaos won (though the clock has stopped at the mention of the 13th...)



But as for on-topic: I think Abbaddon should be KIA
in the same way Vulkan is KIA in Fulgrim - ie, big shellfall, no sign/coummunication afterwards - but we know from other sources, like his ability to disagree with the Codex, that he lived!

Ok, it can't happen from a fluff point of view, as how would you re-instate him into the game (unless you left him in the Codex, a la Gaunt [remember the Sabbat Crusades were a long time ago, a mortal would have died since then] or Eldrad and had some other honcho - maybe another legion - take the mantle).

Heck, a Word Bearer conned by Tzeentch could be a good one (ie, Tzeentch unites the legions/Gods, as is his role in the pantheon, hence following a non-Heresey guy). Something to give the other legions limelight for a while - or even, should the Gate hold like it does now (toehold, that is), have some other blokey pushing into the Galaxy while Abbaddon is still trying to take names on Cadia.


I dunno. I like his history (not the character in the BL books though), but I feel it's time for some other leader - though I know it won't happen as he's the foil to the Ultramarines' Calgar.

philbrad2
20-10-2008, 01:04
I don't see why you would put the IW on the side of the BL in a civil war. If the IW got involved, it is more likely they would fight against the BL. The BL betrayed Chaos by fleeing the SoT first. The IW have supported the Black Crusades less than any other legion. If anything, the IW would sit it out if there was a civil war in the EoT.

C'mon DDRAIGLAIS we'd fight just about anyone against us, wouldn't we ? :evilgrin:

After all the IW (in Honsou's case) were sent to Hydra Cordatus to secure vital resource to enable the 13th BC to take place hence the lack of IW presence in the 13th BC fluff although we were involved in and around the Kasr world in the latter stages of operations.


Erm ever hear of World War II? Those dastardly Germans controlled all of Europe yet didn't have control of the sealanes in the Atlantic. As a result they lost the war partially because the US could pour hundreds of thousands of tons of equipment across the Atlantic to her allies in Britain and the USSR. Later on that included hundreds of thousands of Doughboys to get stuck into Africa, Italy and Normandy.

Sure have and I see and hear far more about the Chaos 'foot hold' on Cadia than the Imperium tearing across the space lanes to resupply and retake it. I take on board the parallel with real warfare,and the need for an invading army to have clear and constant resupply routes, but this is 40K and GW have the power of god in this.


A bad guy doesn't work in 40K because the Imerium itself is meant to be a dystopian hell. Blatant bad guys means that the Imperium is portrayed as good. But then with the kiddyifying of 40K, the portrayal of the Imperium as good guys and Chaos as bad guys.

Sure the lines between good/bad are blurred in 40K the Imperium does what it must to maintain humanities survival. One through the rotting corpse god the other through 'liberation' via the Chaos gods. Pretty much similar goals when you think about it and both will fight as hard as they can to achieve their goals.


The Imperium is only failing in the rulebook. If you read the new Marine codex, the Imperium is on the up and up with the poster boys in blue kicking serious ass and taking names all the while spreading democracy and cheap consumer goods. Huzzah!

Indeed, thought rulebook overrode codex? :evilgrin: The boys in blue are coming to save us... whoopdedo Basil ... if the UM's are that stalwarts defenders of the Imperium why doesn't the entire chapter attack the EoT and purge the Chaos taint :)


I seriously doubt they will advance the plotline and if they do it will be because some proof reader cocked up.

Ain't that the truth ...

Courage and .. wait a minute...

PhilB
:chrome:

Lanparth
20-10-2008, 05:22
At the very least I think GW really needs to give some reference to legitimate undivided alternatives than Abbadon. I know a good number of people seemingly like Hurron (I personally think he's better than Abby, but still a dick.)

Heres hoping to a Legions codex?

Gutlord Grom
20-10-2008, 07:55
1000 Sons: Ahriman got his arsed kicked by the Eldar in the EoT. As no more 1000 Sons are being made, the Legion would have to be considered a rare and dying breed.


The 1000 Sons are basically indestructible. You can blow them apart, melt them, nuke them, and they will come back. While this takes a while, the Thousand Sons are not dying out.

slayerofmen
20-10-2008, 08:04
got a solid idea what if just for fun a world eater champion lopped abby's head off and became the new warlord, because then, maybe just then more killing stabby death might happen in the form if large attacks on planets in the imperium

zendral
20-10-2008, 09:15
Naw, keep ol' abby rollin'.

HOWEVER! I would like to see an advance in timeline. Yay....abby broke Cadia and chaos is free..... WAKE UP LEGIONS! Get your butts in gear and get out there. Let's see some new characters and action from the legions.

Magnus, and the sons...quit goofing with spells and use em. Get out there and fulfill your vow to see the galaxy burn. (personal note: Although I enjoyed the space wolf novels, I felt that the stories were not very good canon. The whole spear of russ and magnus thing was lacking any epic value and felt more like a cheezy sat morning cartoon episode. Would like to see new fluff with the sons making a "big" move at getting revenge.)

Mortarion, yes you got your puss-filled home planet back. Bored yet? I bet you are....Typhus has got a head start on the universe, what the hell are YOU doing?

Angron, you just stay sexy. You didn't win in armeg. but at least you tried.

Fulgrim, yeeeahh....your the only chaos primarch that's controlled by a daemon..can't really expect you to rally the legion. But still...

Let's see some old flames re-ignited. Some new lords capable of challenging Abaddon, or at least capable of wreaking a sizable amount of havoc.

destroyerlord
20-10-2008, 09:46
I don't like the idea of killing off Abby, simply for the fact that the replacement GW would provide is Houron. You all know its true.
'Nuff said.

iaguz
20-10-2008, 11:02
God, I bet GW is secretly listening and plans to make Huron Blackheart the next Abaddon.

I WARNED YOU ALL!

WH40KAj
20-10-2008, 11:58
All im gonna say is GW don't like changing or moving timelines along. Thats pretty why Abbadon sucks, make GW change their story a bit- he takes cadia then a new campaign can ensue!

WH40KAj

x-esiv-4c
20-10-2008, 12:30
It's the 3 foot tall topknot that kills it for me.

sliganian
20-10-2008, 14:04
The 1000 Sons are basically indestructible. You can blow them apart, melt them, nuke them, and they will come back. While this takes a while, the Thousand Sons are not dying out.

I am really curious on what you base the above on. The Rubric was a one-time only sale. You either became a Sorceror or a hollow suit with a spirit inside. Incinerate the suit, incinerate the spirit.

(I hope Phil B allows me a small OT here)

philbrad2
20-10-2008, 17:47
God, I bet GW is secretly listening and plans to make Huron Blackheart the next Abaddon.

I WARNED YOU ALL!

Huron has evolved somewhat in the current incarnation as has now emerged as an Abaddonesque figure for the Renegades and the concentration on Huron in the current Codex has marked him out as a focal point. Doubt he'll topple the Despoiler but he's a refreshing addition to the bad-guy ranks.


(I hope Phil B allows me a small OT here)

Some minor deviation perhaps ....

PhilB
:chrome:

Nidhogg
20-10-2008, 18:36
Totally agree, there should be way more named character death. It's something i hate in both systems that they are so unwilling to make any changes. EoT and Armaggedon both petered out and SoC was the worse. Valten turns up, but now he's dead, Archaon and his armies suddenly teleport next to Middenheim, the skaven set off a bomb that doesn't really do anything. I wish GW were willing to actually do some plot development.

Anyhoo, I think it would be cool (because i play imperial armies) if Abaddon was killed with his own sword by some radical inq or relictor. I like the idea that for maybe a year the imperium would have relative peace around the EoT while a new Warlord is being chosen.

Nidhogg

Ddraiglais
21-10-2008, 01:43
C'mon DDRAIGLAIS we'd fight just about anyone against us, wouldn't we ? :evilgrin:

After all the IW (in Honsou's case) were sent to Hydra Cordatus to secure vital resource to enable the 13th BC to take place hence the lack of IW presence in the 13th BC fluff although we were involved in and around the Kasr world in the latter stages of operations.



PhilB
:chrome:

We would fight anyone against us. I just happen to believe that the BL are on top of the list of those who have wronged us. I also don't see what there would be to gain from entering a civil war. Maybe if Abby gave some of that gene-seed back or if the other side offered up a hell forge or two?

Hydra Cordatus was also to make up for the IW not taking part in the 12th crusade.

If you remember correctly, the WE got full credit for our efforts on Kasr Partox. Of course GW finally said something about us taking the world, but the initial write up was about the WE.

malisteen
21-10-2008, 02:19
A) Of course the timeline is lodged in a quagmire, so of course any would be destroyer/ransacker of the Imperium is going to fail. Any thing else would get in the way of people's armies. Switching Abaddon for someone else won't change the reality of the game imposing itself on the fluff.

B) Abaddon is not equivalent to Archaon. Both are the leaders of the chaos mortals in their games, yes, but they are extremely different as characters. Archaon was introduced with virtually no personality, motivation, or backstory; basically existing only as an 'unstoppable force', and as such he lost all meaning as soon as he was inevitably 'stopped' in the fluff.

Abaddon, on the other hand, has a long backstory, a relatively interesting motivation, and a decent chunk of personality. He's done a lot of things, some of them successfully. He's generally rather interesting as an Evil Warlord character, certainly much more so then Archaon. And considering the high likelyhood that any replacement for Abby would look much more like Archaon, I'd say that's the last thing we'd want for Chaos Marine fluff.


No, the main thing holding Chaos Marine fluff back are its fundamental principles, not its key figures. The premise of chaos fluff in 40k: that forces of chaos are an unstoppable, inumerable tide of evil dedicated soley to the destruction of the imperium and held in check only by Cadia serving as a 'cork in the bottle' is the problem with CSM fluff. As long as the only goal of chaos is the toppling of Terra, Chaos will never achieve it's goals, and all chaos warlords will be failures. As long as Chaos is an unstoppable, overpowering force held in check by a single planet's worth of guardsmen, all chaos warlords will seem like dramatic, totally incompetant failures.

What we need is not 'fresh blood', but rather a fairly extensive retconning of chaos fluff basically from the scouring onward. As long as the forces of chaos are described as overpowering they will seem incompetant for not successfully overpowering anything. As long as their only goal is something that the game itself cannot allow to happen, they will never succeed at anything.


The overall power of the chaos marines as a whole in the fluff needs to be scaled way, way back. The Legions were defeated and driven into the warp, an extremely inhostpitable place, where they battled with each other until a new order could be put in place. As such, the original members of the Legions should be all but wiped out. There just shouldn't be that many original "Emperor's Children" or "Word Bearers" out there, and most of the ones who remain should by this point be elite veterans, if not lords and champions in their own right.

Each of the Legions (at least those Legions which still maintain some organization or structure), should be relatively small, and should seek to use lesser servants of chaos (mutants, daemons, cultists, or more recent traitor marines), to achieve their goals, only arriving in person to deal the final hammer blow and gather up the glory. There should be a WHFB Chaos Warriors style promotion system, where those cultists who are deemed worthy are implanted with stolen geneseed to make new chaos marines, and these new recruits, along with recent traitor marines, in turn struggle to prove themselves in the eyes of their chosen gods, eventually being blessed with marks and elevated to 'veteran' status.

The fluff focus should be on individual champions and their retinues of power armored servants and the lesser beings at their beck and call pursuing objectives delivered to them by their revered, idolized, and hated lords. Each Lord has their own individual goals, their own bitter rivalries and ancient hatreds to pursue.

By scaling the threat of Chaos as a whole back, and focusing more on the individual goals of champions and lords, you can start having successful warlords who deal significant, though not total, damage to various imperial and non-imperial forces. Wiping out a company of the Raven Guard and stealing all their geneseed to make new Chaos Marines, for instance, could be a significant and scarry achievement for the Chaos Marines, rather then a ho-hum occurrance that leaves us wondering why they haven't taken terra yet.


That still leaves the problem of Cadia, a single small world stopping all of the legions from being effective, a single subset of one 40k faction completely impeding an entire other faction on its own. To be honest, Cadia needs to be moved, or the structure of the EoT, or the place of the Legions in it, needs to be dramatically changed. Something needs to be altered, and replacing Abby sure won't fix it.

Yorrik
21-10-2008, 04:55
Regardless of his success or failure, there's no real reason to "overthrow" the guy. It's not like he's the Boss of All Chaos - he's just a bitter, intelligent, and insane warlord who sometimes manages to convince other bitter, intelligent, and insane warlords to help him kick over somebody's sandcastle. He's got some dedicated maniacs working for him, but really the title of "Warmaster" is just an affectation.

Doctor Thunder
21-10-2008, 05:16
Abbadon's real skill is his ability to spin his defeats politically.

Anyone else would have been turned into spawn a dozen times already, but Abbadon always manages to convince the Chaos Gods and the other legion leaders that it was all part of his master plan each time an enormous black crusade is crushed and driven back into the eye of terror.

An imbecilic warlord, but a masterful politician.

Lord-Caerolion
21-10-2008, 06:15
Well, not all the 13 Black Crusades were led by Abaddon either. All this information is from the Liber Chaotica Khorne, so it's pretty recent.
1st, led by him, and got him Drachn'Yen.
2nd, led by him, failure, it was just a general rampage.
3rd, led by the Daemon Prince Tallomin.
4th, led by Abaddon, smashed the Kromarch, and pissed off the Blood Angels.
5th, led by Doombreed.
6th, led by Abaddon, "men will grow mistrustful of each other, and cosmic forces of tremendous power will isolate and disenfranchise our citadels".
7th, led by Abaddon, the "Ghost War". Causes paranoia amongst the Gates defenders, "His hand becomes Night."
8-9th, no information given.
10th, doesn't specify leader, although mentions the Iron Warriors multiple times, fighting against the Iron Hands. No known gain, Iron Warriors repulsed.
11th, no information given.
12th, Gothic War, led by Abaddon, gains some Blackstone Fortresses, "the ruin of man is further assured."

So while Abaddon may not have properly captured Cadia, each of the Black Crusades he led was for a specific goal, and helped with the progress of the future Black Crusades.

pringles978
21-10-2008, 11:10
if he worked for me, id sack him. over the phone of course, he could have someones eye out with that claw.

Captain Marius
21-10-2008, 13:01
Abaddon fulfils the same role that Calgar, Creed, Ghazghkull and Eldrad fill; they are not the leaders of a unified race by any stretch of the imagination, but are certainly examples of the greatest leaders available to those races. It is up to the player to decide whether they want to use one of these special characters to lead their army, or make up their own character. With Abaddon, the player can choose whether their own Chaos Lord and warband is likely to serve the Despoiler directly, oppose him (possibly challenging his position as pre-eminent Chaos Lord), or simply tolerate his position and go about their own business. The same considerations apply to Ork warbands who may fight with or against Ghazghkull, or even Eldar hosts who may disagree vehemently with Eldrad's visions to the point where war is the only option.

I see no need to advance the storyline - for a start, it's NOT a storyline, its a background setting for playing games in. I wish GW would emphasise this by detailing more historical campaigns to inspire players to invent their own histories. As a result, there is no need to progress any of the special characters' stories; I would much rather there was more information available about their histories, which could again act as inspiration for players to create their own characters' histories.