PDA

View Full Version : Black People in the Imperium



Borg451
19-10-2008, 13:12
Hi,

Im getting back into 40k stuff.. painting and the background atm... gaming to come hopefully

(Bare in mind .. i am a n00b so might be talking rubbish)

One thing that occured to me then (5-8 years ago).. and know.. is the amount of black and coloured people there in the Imperium.. and other Human Societies

does this strike anyone else as wierd? is this a commonly realised thing on the forum?

does anyone paint their human models not all as white people, despite the source material..

If so post pictures :P

Thud
19-10-2008, 13:33
Personally, I always paint my minis with white skin. Why? Simply because I can't seem to paint dark skin decently.

That said, there are plenty of dark skinned people in the 41st millennium. Salamanders, Tallarn etc.

Leeman Russ
19-10-2008, 13:35
I have a few scouts of african descent (is that the correct term? I can never tell in this time of political correctness) in my space marine army.

When you say 'despite the source material', do you mean that there's a bit of fluff somewhere that states that the Imperium is Caucasian throughout? If so, it'd be an interesting read.

MvS
19-10-2008, 13:53
If you search a little you'll find that this topic comes up time and again. Every aspect has been discussed to death pretty much.

Basically though, this is a fantasy setting and there are as many or as little people of any ethnicity, gender or strange mutation as you want there to be. It really isn't an important issue.

Borg451
19-10-2008, 13:54
I have a few scouts of african descent (is that the correct term? I can never tell in this time of political correctness) in my space marine army.

When you say 'despite the source material', do you mean that there's a bit of fluff somewhere that states that the Imperium is Caucasian throughout? If so, it'd be an interesting read.


lol. wtf?

is it the correct term.. its IS the correct term if you intend them to be of african decent..

why dont you just call them black? thats not offensive.. are you from the sticks? or american? or both?

besides its the internet..

Bjorn
19-10-2008, 14:02
Ya borg451 I'm not liking your Attitude.

Yes its the internet so what? That doesn't give you free reign to be racist.

The fact is, considering there are QUADRILLIONS of people in the Imperium of Man, you can paint them whatever colour you want.

The fact is though, most people paint something they can relate too, and considering GW has a playerbase mainly in Europe and the US, it stands to reason the majorty of players are Caucasian, and paint their mini's as such

And the only truly black people are the sallies :3

aad
19-10-2008, 14:19
i don,t think color is so much more as being given from the sun and uv.

that,s the whole stupidity about racism, black people and white people red and yellow whatever.
color of skin depends on closeness to the sun (uv),radiation and things you eat
keep that for millenia on end and that,s the color you,re gonna be.

their are a million of worlds in the imperium, you can,t tell me that all the people are white that,s just BS.
so i have no problem painting some marines black(brown whatever) ;)

i don,t think borg was trying to be a racist. don,t go overreacting just say it to a mod/admin and let them be the judge of that.

you could hardly call every black human being in the imperium a african american can you?? :D
we don,t call them african dutchmen in holland neither.
their just dutchmen with a different color of skin.
but you don,t mention that either because their just dutchmen like anyone else.
those dutchmen i spoke on the matter call the whole discussion more hurtfull and stigmatising than if you just call them what you are.
thread them as another human being because that,s what they are. :)

leo_neil316
19-10-2008, 14:42
Since we're only ever given vague passing reference and the odd painters interpretation we have no reason to believe that people like say Yarrick or Creed or Maugan Ra are -any- skin colour. Dudes could be green for all we know and until something says otherwise.....

Apply the standard '40k is a setting, whats in it is up to you' line.

max the dog
19-10-2008, 14:56
This is why the figures don't come pre-painted. You are free to paint them anyway you like. If you want some black skinned Valhallans, go ahead. The fluff says different but who cares, you bought them. You want to paint up Inquisitors Eisenhorn and Revenor's retinue as all white, go ahead even though half of them are black. It simply doesn't matter.
The current year in the 40K world is about 30,000 or 40,000 years into the future (the fluff dateline confuses me). Coincidentally that's about as much time as modern humans have been in Europe and east Asia. All of the different European and Asian ethnic groups from the very light Swedish and Japanese to the darker Italians and Mongolians have evolved from black African origins in as much time as the 40K world is from today. Taken in reverse there is no reason to not believe that if the Swedish were to colonize space today, in 40,000 years they could be as black as Nigerians.
I'm not being racist, quite the opposite. This is all Darwinism.

Maidel
19-10-2008, 15:02
Right - to my knowledge the only groups with a specific ethnicity (or colour of skin) are:

Salamanders - BLACK (as in coal black) skin
Raven guard - White skin (I not 100% on this one)
Tallarens - tanned skin


Im pretty certain they are the only mentions of a specific ethnicity in the entire game. Other than that - paint what you want.

GabrielEvander
19-10-2008, 15:33
Raven guard - White skin (I not 100% on this one)


Raven Guard slowly change skin colour and hair tone to Imitate there primarch.
in Raven Guard very very light white and coal black hair and eyes

Rabid Bunny 666
19-10-2008, 15:37
Its up to you, the Salamanders have jet black skin, Mortificators are space rastas, its completely up to you. My Red Corsairs have a mix, asian, black, white, it just doesn't matter.

AdmiralDick
19-10-2008, 15:38
One thing that occured to me then (5-8 years ago).. and know.. is the amount of black and coloured people there in the Imperium.. and other Human Societies

does this strike anyone else as wierd? is this a commonly realised thing on the forum?

as others have pointed out this is a commonly raised issue, but i can't recall a thread where i felt that the issue was seemed resolved to any serious degree.

to be honest white-bias is quite common in almost every sci-fi setting. Star Wars, Star Trek, Logan's Run, RoboCop, everything. so it is hardly astonishing that 40k and Fantasy are the same. there are a number of complex social and historical factors involved as to why that is the case, so it is not purely racist or anything.

however, the reason that the status quo is maintained is because it is almost never challenged. GW don't have the staff and the resources to put into developing the background and imagery of their in-game universes and so limited resources bring about limited results so they are unlikely to make the universe more complex than they can handle (just check out what EA have done to Fantasy with their much larger budget and bigger pool of talent for Warhammer Online). and i can't recall a non-white person who has worked on the design team, as a miniature designer or even as a WD writer.

the end result is that in background terms all humans are made out to be, relatively speaking, of the same 'race' which increases the sense of homogeny and unity within the Imperium. even those that appear to be of a different ethnic origin, on closer inspection just seem to be white people dressed up (the Tallarns are Lawrence of Arabia, rather than Arabs, and the Attillans are John Wayne playing the part of Genghis Khan, rather than actual Mongols). and this then throws 'alien' races into sharper contrast with humans. also, with limited skills on the parts of the miniature designers means that humans tend to all look the same, rather than having racial features (Jes Goodwin is brilliant, but he can only sculpt one face, whether its a Space Marine Sargent or Inquisitor Covenant). so whilst its perfectly possible to paint your marines with darker skin, they will always lack the broader nose and thicker lips that are commonly associated with Africans. essentially, all you are doing in that situation is 'blacking them up' rather than making them ethnically different.

again, none of this implies racism, just a lack of drive and funding to see anything different. the Lord of the Rings range emphasises this, because the Harad, Khand and Easterling armies are all quite ethnically diverse in comparison to most things found in 40k and Fantasy (with maybe the exception of the Tileans and Arabyans). but this is largely due to the fact that the company was pretty much handed most of the material for them on a platter from New Line and the very well studied Tolkien.


Basically though, this is a fantasy setting and there are as many or as little people of any ethnicity, gender or strange mutation as you want there to be. It really isn't an important issue.

i can agree that there is certainly space for them, and that no one is unwelcome in the 40k and Fantasy universes, but actually representing them is much, much harder.

Maidel
19-10-2008, 15:40
Raven Guard slowly change skin colour and hair tone to Imitate there primarch.
in Raven Guard very very light white and coal black hair and eyes

Thanks for the conformation, i didnt think i was going mad

Iracundus
19-10-2008, 16:18
to be honest white-bias is quite common in almost every sci-fi setting. Star Wars, Star Trek, Logan's Run, RoboCop, everything. so it is hardly astonishing that 40k and Fantasy are the same. there are a number of complex social and historical factors involved as to why that is the case, so it is not purely racist or anything.

Given the growing importance of China in the current era, and the past precedent of its previous importance throughout practically all of world history, by simple numbers and proportion one should realistically expect more Asians (if one assumes distinct recognizable modern ethnicities in the future) or more "blended" mixed ethnicities in the future.



the end result is that in background terms all humans are made out to be, relatively speaking, of the same 'race' which increases the sense of homogeny and unity within the Imperium. even those that appear to be of a different ethnic origin, on closer inspection just seem to be white people dressed up (the Tallarns are Lawrence of Arabia, rather than Arabs, and the Attillans are John Wayne playing the part of Genghis Khan, rather than actual Mongols).

This is partially a problem due to the fact that few game designers are of non-white ethnicities, or have advanced degrees in history or cultural studies in these areas. Thus one gets superficial stereotypical representations one they do try to do other cultures or groups. One particular failing and a pet peeve of mine is the tendency for some designers to have an obvious caricature of samurai Japan shoehorned in somehow, as a token "exotic" non-mainstream culture, sometimes with exaggeratedly fanboyish aspects of how awesome, honorable, super duper they are. Unless there is very convincing rationale, I personally find such a move an automatic fail in game design.

Simon Sez
19-10-2008, 17:00
One particular failing and a pet peeve of mine is the tendency for some designers to have an obvious caricature of samurai Japan shoehorned in somehow, as a token "exotic" non-mainstream culture

It is a shame, but there are few cultures that can compete with Samurai Japan for visual impact, and those that can are obscure to your average white western education.

From my unhistorical education my understanding of non european cultures is

A dozen variations of men in grass skirts with metal/non metal tool split.
Ottoman Turks; eunuchs, arquebusiers, losing the Great Siege, the Basilisk.
Persia; the hotbed of ancient learning. Fought Sparta, regretted it.
India; likes Elephants, spices, gods with lots of hands took a while to invent proper swords.
China; dressed up in garb Queen Elizabeth would find ostentacious, kung fu movies on wires, bow too much.
Japan; SAMURAI!! Probably did othre things too...
Russia; errr. Cold, cold, Cossacks, Tsars, Ivan the, Peter the, Catherine the, Red Square looks nice.
North America; counting coup,ancestors, Eskimos up north, horse riders down south.
America; Aztecs, Inca, Maya, Tolchec, Olmec, bunch of other 'ecs, no swords. Possible men in grass skirts, human sacrifice.
Africa; home of many men in grass skirts, pyramids, all city cultures get smashed by grass skirts it seems.

Iracundus
19-10-2008, 17:16
China; dressed up in garb Queen Elizabeth would find ostentacious, kung fu movies on wires, bow too much.
Japan; SAMURAI!! Probably did othre things too...


:rolleyes: This OMG! idolization of anything Japanese or samurai obscures a lot of the historical facts of the region.

Japanese traditional dress is derived from Tang dynasty China, which the Japanese bandwagoned and copied wholesale (from architecture, to clothing, to furniture, to government structure). That is why ironically one of the best places to study Tang dynasty history and architecture is Japan as more of it is preserved compared to China. All the bowing and stuff is directly derived from Confucian principles of hierarchy and is common to many Asian cultures.

China through its various dynasties had more examples of total mass warfare, bloodshed, and large scale mobilization than Japan, which historically didn't do so well in massed warfare against other countries due to its obsession with single combat and personal honor. One historical anecdote describes how the Mongols fighting the Japanese on the Korean peninsula laughed when a Japanese samurai fired a whistling arrow and then began to recite his lineage while challenging the Mongols to single combat. The Mongol reply was several hundred (real) arrows fired en masse. The Japanese forces were relatively quickly routed from the Korean peninsula by the Mongols and their allied troops.

The Mongols despite their depiction as a mass horde, were outnumbered by their enemies and the people they conquered.

Samurai were not the uber unbeatable warriors fanboys make them out to be, and there is also more to Japan both good and bad than just samurai, swords, and ninjas.

Wolfblade670
19-10-2008, 18:55
Seriously, this race question should go in the FAQ thread. Bottom line, 40k is (or at least used to be) British Science Fantsy. It was desinged by Englishmen with an English point of view. Hell, the "default" accent for an Imperial citizen in most of the media is British. Most of the design for the universe is taken from European culture and history. Of course there's going to be alot of white guys. It's a very Euro-centric franchise in regards to the design. It's not rascism, it's just the theme of the universe. No one complains about the lack of white guys in a Cyberpunk setting in say, Tokyo. Why? Because it's the Asian centric theme, not veiled rascism. I really wish people would stop bringing this up, it gets old real fast.

Iracundus
19-10-2008, 19:07
No one complains about the lack of white guys in a Cyberpunk setting in say, Tokyo. Why? Because it's the Asian centric theme, not veiled rascism. I really wish people would stop bringing this up, it gets old real fast.

Uh...historically the roots of cyberpunk as a genre from the 1980s was heavily about the shock, disenfranchisement, and envy or love/hate relationship of the white guy when confronted with the specter of an Asian society (Japanese) outcompeting and outpeforming "traditional" Western society in the fields of technology and business. Intertwined with that are elements of culture shock as individualistic Western perceptions clash against communal group oriented Asian values (or Asian values as perceived by Western society) commonly embodied in faceless monolithic entities like the zaibatsu megacorporations. I would not say cyberpunk is at all Asian-centric so much as it is caucasian -centric, revolving around about Western society coming to terms with being less successful than the "other". The "other" could have just as easily been filled by any other non-Western group, but happened to be filled historically by the Japanese.

Harwammer
19-10-2008, 19:33
in M9 the emperor invented ULTIMATE SUNBLOCK. as a result the skin pigment of future generations of humans slowly degraded, leaving them the unhealthy pastey colour they currently are.

Also you don't catch much sun in hive cities ;)

Blacula
19-10-2008, 19:46
i paint my guardsmen white , aian, ethnic and black, am the ony gamer i know with mixed race humans

Ddraiglais
19-10-2008, 20:35
I think the biggest reason for any racial bias is that gamer geeks tend to be white males. Most would be more confortable playing with a force that is also mostly white males. Another problem I can see is that painting flesh isn't the easiest thing for a lot of people. Once someone learns how to paint one kind of flesh to a decent standard, they might not be willing to learn another shade of flesh.

weissengel86
19-10-2008, 21:09
Why do people talk about african asian and euorpean races? Last time i checked none of those exist in 40k anymore. Id like somebody to show me an african or asian or european space marine or guardsmen considering the vast majority have almost very little connection to earth much less the earth of today. Why do people keep bringing this subject up when it has no relevance to the game whatsoever? Why does GW have to paint models with a correct representation of ethnicities (as if that made any sense anyways)? Why does anyone care since you are the one who paints your models and you decide how they get painted even if you have someone else paint them?

MrBigMr
19-10-2008, 21:10
Maybe all those colony ships that left Terra a long time ago were for whites only?


This is why the figures don't come pre-painted. You are free to paint them anyway you like.
Oh, I can, and everyone with an oppinion on the matter is also free (aka. no one can stop them) to voice out their oppinion.

But if you want ethnics, for one the Emperor isn't really as Norwegian as the rest of the Imperium. I think there was a black inquisitor in DoW. In Codex: Catachans there were models painted with dark skins and the old Salamanders had dark skin and the artwork to me looked to have more african facial features. Of course today the Salamanders are just jet black skinned freaks due to their gene-seeds going nuts. I must say they look like crap.


I think the biggest reason for any racial bias is that gamer geeks tend to be white males. Most would be more confortable playing with a force that is also mostly white males. Another problem I can see is that painting flesh isn't the easiest thing for a lot of people. Once someone learns how to paint one kind of flesh to a decent standard, they might not be willing to learn another shade of flesh.
Once you go black, you never go back. Once you go asian, you never go caucasian.

Heh, heh... But seriously, might be. Though I do prefer to have armies of mixed sex and race. Call it white man's guilt, or maybe its just the byproduct of seeing too much of the world and realizing people all over the little blob are not that different.

My IG has men and women with different skin colours, so does my Chaos force up to the point of having alients there as well. My Chaos Dwarfs have women and my daemons are all female. I just don't get how someone can have an army of nothing but big burly men that don't want anything to do with women. I mean, that's not an army, that's a gay pride parade with all the flashy colours.

weissengel86
19-10-2008, 21:21
I just don't get how someone can have an army of nothing but big burly men that don't want anything to do with women. I mean, that's not an army, that's a gay pride parade with all the flashy colours.
When men make love women are just in the way ;)

I just happen to like my big burly men since big burly women isnt exactly what im going for :p

Having black people is great how else are you gonna distinguish the conscripts from the regulars? ;)

PS: that was just a joke im not serious

MrBigMr
19-10-2008, 21:24
I just happen to like my big burly men since big burly women isnt exactly what im going for :p
How are you doing'?

Maidel
19-10-2008, 21:31
the old Salamanders had dark skin and the artwork to me looked to have more african facial features. Of course today the Salamanders are just jet black skinned freaks due to their gene-seeds going nuts. I must say they look like crap.

No, sorry your wrong. Salamanders were always described as having 'black' skin. The salamanders that appeared in codex armageddon were the first ones to be shown with BROWN skin tones.

In the newest fluff they are just making it clear that the salamaders always had Coal Black skin, and that the ones in the middle were an error.



My IG has men and women with different skin colours, so does my Chaos force up to the point of having alients there as well. My Chaos Dwarfs have women and my daemons are all female. I just don't get how someone can have an army of nothing but big burly men that don't want anything to do with women. I mean, that's not an army, that's a gay pride parade with all the flashy colours.


Frankly, its not a gay pride parade, its the models that GW produces. The only female models that are suitable without masses of conversion to be used as imperial guard are the old esher gangers (sp?)

I honestly think the main 3 reasons why almost everyone has WHITE MALE figures is that:

1) Most gamers are WHITE MALES and thus they represent what they are.

2) Most if not all of the game designers/ Model designers are WHITE MALES (accept a couple of WHITE WOMEN)

3) Learning to paint more than one type of skin tone, then varying it across an army is a pain. Not the mention that they would stop looking unified.

MrBigMr
19-10-2008, 21:47
No, sorry your wrong.
In that case I can be happy in the knowledge that the Salamanders have always been utter crap.
*sits down and is happy in the knowledge that the Salamanders have always been utter crap*


Frankly, its not a gay pride parade, its the models that GW produces. The only female models that are suitable without masses of conversion to be used as imperial guard are the old esher gangers (sp?)

I honestly think the main 3 reasons why almost everyone has WHITE MALE figures is that:

1) Most gamers are WHITE MALES and thus they represent what they are.

2) Most if not all of the game designers/ Model designers are WHITE MALES (accept a couple of WHITE WOMEN)

3) Learning to paint more than one type of skin tone, then varying it across an army is a pain. Not the mention that they would stop looking unified.
It's funny that when it comes to GW, they're always special. And not "special" like "special olympics", but "special" like "we can get away with murder, ha-ha-haa!" There's to ton of modelling companies out there run by white people for white people and make models that are both female and/or non-caucasian.

The only female models that are suitable without masses of conversion to be used as imperial guard are not made by GW. Besides, it's a hobby. You're suppose to get your ass up and do something, not bend over and take it up it. You're suppose to stick it to the man, not let the man stick it in you.

People, don't listen to GW and their insane theories on IP. Screw them. I'll mix and match my armies as much as I like. I'll make my armies out of army men toys if I want to, as long as it's all WYSIWYG. If they want to take it up with me, I'll just let them know that I was a querrilla in the army and I know a thing or two about making bombs and traps.


Besides, if white men were so popular, why all the rave about drows? Especially female ones?

Maidel
19-10-2008, 22:05
In that case I can be happy in the knowledge that the Salamanders have always been utter crap.
*sits down and is happy in the knowledge that the Salamanders have always been utter crap*

Good man. :D


It's funny that when it comes to GW, they're always special. And not "special" like "special olympics", but "special" like "we can get away with murder, ha-ha-haa!" There's to ton of modelling companies out there run by white people for white people and make models that are both female and/or non-caucasian.

Dont disaggree at all. Its the way that GW do their business, and it appears to be the most successful out there, so they are doing something right.


The only female models that are suitable without masses of conversion to be used as imperial guard are not made by GW. Besides, it's a hobby. You're suppose to get your ass up and do something, not bend over and take it up it. You're suppose to stick it to the man, not let the man stick it in you.

Quite frankly, ive never had a rebellious issue and thus ive never felt it entirely necessary to 'stick it to the man'. Id say im perfectly capable and very able of doing excessive conversion work if i want to (converted my first major model at the age of 12, and my Nagash STILL looks better than the GW original!)


People, don't listen to GW and their insane theories on IP. Screw them.

Well many do. I suppose it depends on where you play your games. At home alone? Use bits of card if you wish. At a gaming club? what ever they allow. In GW stores and tornaments? You play by their rules.

Its not hard :D


If they want to take it up with me, I'll just let them know that I was a querrilla in the army and I know a thing or two about making bombs and traps.

Is that entirely necessary? Id also question exactly what army you were part of. Your English is very good, as to my knowledge no English speaking country actually as an army unit called 'guerrilas' (or querrilla as you spelt it).


Besides, if white men were so popular, why all the rave about drows? Especially female ones?

I dont know? Maybe has something to do with lots of white male geeks have a thing for hot chicks who dont wear much and have a distinct liking for pain. :angel:

Aeolian
19-10-2008, 22:35
i don,t think color is so much more as being given from the sun and uv.

The entire field of human genetics frowns upon this sentiment.

Not that modern differences between genetically similar populations matters much, because no modern races exist in 40k.

Not least because of the MASSIVE restructuring of the human genome that would have occured in the DAoT. Think 40k humans are like us? Think again. They will be descended from the best and brightest, with all bad genes removed, and a few new ones thrown in.

On another note when we colonize the moon (which we are currently doing) we wont be sending Joe Retard into space, we'll be sending the best and the brightest. Why does this matter for race? There will almost certainly be more European and East Asain space-men than say, Aboriginies, because on average the former two groups are more intelligent. Whether or not you think that's the result of their environments or their genes is irrelevant. Do your research.

MrBigMr
19-10-2008, 22:48
Dont disaggree at all. Its the way that GW do their business, and it appears to be the most successful out there, so they are doing something right.
GW began as a rebelling, idealistic group. I mean, Waffen-SS stormboyz and all the things the EC did during the siege. Not it's all toned down PG crap. But that's why people get to do their own stuff to make up for the lacking on this front.


Quite frankly, ive never had a rebellious issue and thus ive never felt it entirely necessary to 'stick it to the man'.
After living in a welfare state you begin to get a certain animosity towards the established governing elements and their rules. And I ain't the only one.


Well many do. I suppose it depends on where you play your games. At home alone? Use bits of card if you wish. At a gaming club? what ever they allow. In GW stores and tornaments? You play by their rules.

Its not hard :D
1. I don't play at home. Can barely fit my own stuff here, let alonet a table and another person with their stuff.
2. Seeing that at the moment the gaming club happens to be run by our association and I was appointed as the chief of the whole operation, I decide what goes.
3. The closest GW store is around 400Km away. The tournaments where I go to are either run by our association or other known ones. And there we have stuff like He-man toy Giants and tootpick bolt throwers. And nothing has been disallowed as of yet.

Besides, I wouldn't trust GW stores nor tournaments that much. I know some people who have been thrown out from tournaments for having armies of OOP GW models. So I wouldn't go into one of those place even if they asked me to.


Is that entirely necessary? Id also question exactly what army you were part of. Your English is very good, as to my knowledge no English speaking country actually as an army unit called 'guerrilas' (or querrilla as you spelt it).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sissi_(Finnish_light_infantry)
And my English is the byproduct of starting my education from an English pre-school, taking all English classes I ever could in school and having been to 48 countries around the world.


Maybe has something to do with lots of white male geeks have a thing for hot chicks who dont wear much and have a distinct liking for pain. :angel:
Well who doesn't? All you need is one of those GW measuring sticks and use it to motivate yourself to strive for perfection. I do it all the time when playing. Only thing the sticks are good for.

Maidel
19-10-2008, 23:09
GW began as a rebelling, idealistic group. I mean, Waffen-SS stormboyz and all the things the EC did during the siege. Not it's all toned down PG crap. But that's why people get to do their own stuff to make up for the lacking on this front.

Right... So people being forcfully turned into servators, people summoning demons, a fully formed nazi facist human state, a race that gets its kicks from torturing people, another race who cause the semi destruction of the entire universe by being addicted to depraved sex?

Thats not hard core enough for you?


After living in a welfare state you begin to get a certain animosity towards the established governing elements and their rules. And I ain't the only one.

ERm, yea, what ever floats your boat.


3. The closest GW store is around 400Km away. The tournaments where I go to are either run by our association or other known ones. And there we have stuff like He-man toy Giants and tootpick bolt throwers. And nothing has been disallowed as of yet.

Yea, that must be so great for you. Personally the hobby side of things is the most important for me of anything, nothing gets to the table thats not had hours of time spent on it.

But as I said, its what ever works for you.


Besides, I wouldn't trust GW stores nor tournaments that much. I know some people who have been thrown out from tournaments for having armies of OOP GW models. So I wouldn't go into one of those place even if they asked me to.

HAHA - your on a forum entirely for GW games and you have that much hatred for them? I just dont get it.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sissi_(Finnish_light_infantry)

EDIT - works now - Sissi forces are not irregular guerrilla or militia forces - quote from that page... Sorry to be picky.



Well who doesn't? All you need is one of those GW measuring sticks and use it to motivate yourself to strive for perfection. I do it all the time when playing. Only thing the sticks are good for.

Totally disagree. They have LOADS of uses. :D We mananged to rig up enough elastic bands to fire one straight through a full GW boxed core game.

kikkoman
20-10-2008, 01:28
isn't Warhammer the most extreme caricature of european culture there is though?

in 40k, the Imperium is ridiculously religious and blindly faithful. They're completely arrogant in their views of racial superiority, going around purging xenos. Praying to machine spirits so your car doesn't stall out, etc. Their greatest engines of war are GIANT SPACE CATHEDRALS!

with WHF you've got Brettonians and their dirt poor worthless peasants and the foofy nobles that lead them to war. You've got the blind religious fanaticism, guys like flagellants that think the world is ending and yell around screaming swinging flails.


I figure with the Imperium of Man in 40k, their culture is very specifically European. It doesn't need other ethnicities in it because it is an extreme caricature of European culture, the best kind of self deprecating British humor.

jselvy
20-10-2008, 03:02
Leaving the fact that this is a sci-fantasy game se in an entirely fictional universe, and as such the concerns of race-relations in our shared reality are not really applicable.

The unprecedented mobility of modern populations and intermixing of the various human genotypes suggests that a standardization of the visible racial forms would take place over the intervening thirty-eight thousand years. Thusly, the racial variants that would be current in 999.M41 would be almost entirely the function of the environment of the various colonized planets, some of which have been inhabited for a time that is actually longer than recorded history in our shared reality. It is my understanding that the current racial variations are a direct function of the environment of this planet.

On a side note immune response would be similarly affected. A person would have no immunity to diseases that were not common to their homeworld. Those who are raised in artificial environments such as space stations, domed colonies and starships would have a greatly reduced immune system due to the sterile atmospheric systems.

AlmightyNocturnus
20-10-2008, 03:16
I don`t know if this will answer the original question, but a few years ago I did a painting exchange with a friend who was making a Space Wolves army. Though Space Wolves are typically depicted as being Nordic peoples, he was using Dark Flesh paint as the base for their skin and asked me to do the same. I must have looked a bit surprised because he immediately went on to tell me that all Space Marines have skin that will adapt to conditions of their surrounding environment. In the fluff for his Space Wolves, they had been marooned a desert planet, so (according to him) their skin naturally became darker to deal with harsher amounts of sunlight. I don`t know where he read the fluff about Space Marine skin, but if it`s true, then potentially any Space Marine could be painted with darker flesh tones...but the whole army would probably have to be painted to match.

Almighty Nocturnus

Aeolian
20-10-2008, 03:39
in 40k, the Imperium is ridiculously religious and blindly faithful.

That couldn't possibly be like, say, the Aztecs of Muslims?


They're completely arrogant in their views of racial superiority

You mean like the Chinese?


Praying to machine spirits so your car doesn't stall out, etc. Their greatest engines of war are GIANT SPACE CATHEDRALS!

Holy crap, not like how ever civilisation ever has!?!?!


I figure with the Imperium of Man in 40k, their culture is very specifically European. It doesn't need other ethnicities in it because it is an extreme caricature of European culture

:wtf:

Feor
20-10-2008, 04:16
Id like somebody to show me an... asian or European space marine

Ask and ye shall recieve:
White Scars, their entire planet is of asian descent, hence...
Imperial Fists, recruit from Terra, particularly the pilgrims around the Imperial Palace, centered on Nottingham, England.

Griefbringer
20-10-2008, 08:00
No, sorry your wrong. Salamanders were always described as having 'black' skin.


What about those guys in the cover of Battle for Armageddon boardgame? AFAIK they were supposed to be Salamanders:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/174259

GodofWarTx
20-10-2008, 08:07
isn't Warhammer the most extreme caricature of european culture there is though?

in 40k, the Imperium is ridiculously religious and blindly faithful. They're completely arrogant in their views of racial superiority, going around purging xenos. Praying to machine spirits so your car doesn't stall out, etc. Their greatest engines of war are GIANT SPACE CATHEDRALS!

with WHF you've got Brettonians and their dirt poor worthless peasants and the foofy nobles that lead them to war. You've got the blind religious fanaticism, guys like flagellants that think the world is ending and yell around screaming swinging flails.


I figure with the Imperium of Man in 40k, their culture is very specifically European. It doesn't need other ethnicities in it because it is an extreme caricature of European culture, the best kind of self deprecating British humor.

Well, i would agree that yes, its taking a lot of the elements of Western History into the extreme, but i think you only looked at it from the "lol @ religion" perspective. In 40k and in Fantasy, the world *really* IS ending. There ARE demons. There ARE angels. Im not sure how you can call a lot of that "dumb blind faith" when the proof is looking up at the sky and seeing it stare right back at you ;)

I think you can draw comparisons of the xenophobia with Europe getting Invaded several times by outside powers of very impressive martial skill. You have the Muslim's of Dar Al Islam in Spain all the way up to Tours, France. Huns and Mongols too. While i agree you are right in that it is charactures of what Europe was , i think it devalues the people at the time looking at their current world events and knowledge base when we are looking at the past with such "lol, they were nubs". :D


In regards to racial differences in the imperium, i would like to say there is pre-heresy information regarding terra as breaking down into several compacts, tribes and alliances that break conventional alliances. Things like the AmerAsian Compact and whatnot. I bet there was quite a lot of interracial mixing at that point and you would see a lot of people start to look quite alike. Heck, Scientists today predict redheads wont be around in the next 50 years with the results of the new global community on a recessive genetic trait that was isolated in small communities.

Unclejo
20-10-2008, 08:23
Its also appropriate to note that planets in 40k tend to be "all one thing". Theres not normally hot bits, cold bits and wet bits. Theres usually ONE BIG JUNGLE or ONE BIG DESERT. Which would eliminate some racial diversity.

Simon Sez
20-10-2008, 08:26
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sissi_(Finnish_light_infantry)
And my English is the byproduct of starting my education from an English pre-school, taking all English classes I ever could in school and having been to 48 countries around the world.


Hmmm.

Do you take commissions? I have a certain Finn I'd like removed

(I hate you Kimi Raikkonen, I HATE YOU!!)

Allen
20-10-2008, 08:44
Last time i checked none of those exist in 40k anymore. Id like somebody to show me an african or asian or european space marine or guardsmen

Actually in Gaunt's Ghosts there are the Vitrian Dragoons, a regiment composed entirely of black people. In the Eisenhorn triology we can see that on the planet Glavia there are some black people (the Betancore family is just one of them).



considering the vast majority have almost very little connection to earth much less the earth of today.

Indeed that's correct. Something like 38.000 years on planets far away from Earth, orbiting around stars different from our Sun, can change the color pigmentation of the human enclaves living on those planets...but that's common sense and, if I may, logic and common sense can't stay close to GW fans :D

Coasty
20-10-2008, 08:46
After living in a welfare state you begin to get a certain animosity towards the established governing elements and their rules. And I ain't the only one.


Oh, everybody gets that, it's just that a hobby like this is quite possibly the least useful outlet in the whole world for such inclinations.

Anyway, I've found a wonderful solution to the issue of skin colour- all my soldiers are either wearing headgear that covers their face, or they're GREEN.

MrBigMr
20-10-2008, 09:33
Wonder if there are any black orks in 40K. I've always wanted to do a diorama of 2 or 3 Tau cop battlesuits beating a black ork. Flashing shoulder lights and all that.

Yes, I'm going to hell when I die.


Right... So people being forcfully turned into servators, people summoning demons, a fully formed nazi facist human state, a race that gets its kicks from torturing people, another race who cause the semi destruction of the entire universe by being addicted to depraved sex?

Thats not hard core enough for you?
Take Robocop and Robocob 3. The world is the same, but which one is grim and dark and which one is just grimdark? Or how about Starship Troopers and Starship Troopers the CGI animation?


ERm, yea, what ever floats your boat.
Ok, how's this. I didn't get all my courses finished in high school, so I had to finish them later. Now, there has to be a 6 month gap between high school and the open high school, or I'm marked as a student rather than as unemployed (which no one told me about). Army service didn't count into this time. So after I got out of the army and reported to the open high school to finish the few courses I had left, I couldn't get a job because I was a student. Two weeks later and it would have all been good, but now the timer was reseted. And as it's open high school, I won't get any support from the system. So it's either no money or no school. Well, I likes my money so I had to stop the school and go to work for the next 6 months to reset the counter so that I can go back into the open without it making me a student.

And this story is but one of the ones I know of. I think one of the guys in the army had the perfect plan for his life. He'll work under the counter his whole life, living large and when its time to retire, he'll just shoot himself.


HAHA - your on a forum entirely for GW games and you have that much hatred for them? I just dont get it.
I don't hate GW games, I hate GW. It's not the game's fault it has such a lousy developer. Those people killed Damnatus!


EDIT - works now - Sissi forces are not irregular guerrilla or militia forces - quote from that page... Sorry to be picky.
"In Finnish, "sissi" means guerrilla..."
Another quote from the page.


Its also appropriate to note that planets in any generic scifi universe tend to be "all one thing". Theres not normally hot bits, cold bits and wet bits. Theres usually ONE BIG JUNGLE or ONE BIG DESERT. Which would eliminate some racial diversity.
Fixed.


Do you take commissions? I have a certain Finn I'd like removed
Sorry, I promised to use my power only for good.


Oh, everybody gets that, it's just that a hobby like this is quite possibly the least useful outlet in the whole world for such inclinations.
That's why God created alcohol and internet porn. And once a year you get to spend a weekend beating up kids and nerds with a PVC pipe wrapped in padding and duct tape.

malika
20-10-2008, 11:40
Well, if people here really are concerned or interested about different ethnicities in miniatures you might want to drop a line in this thread (http://trollsforge.proboards83.com/index.cgi?board=concept&action=display&thread=160) over at the Troll Forged Miniatures forum, I'm attempting to convince them to sculpt a bunch of ethnic heads which could be used for your minis! :)

Aeolian
20-10-2008, 11:45
Heck, Scientists today predict redheads wont be around in the next 50 years with the results of the new global community on a recessive genetic trait that was isolated in small communities.

Post after post of wildly inaccurate information - this thread is a belter.

I'm starting to seriously question whether or not there is anybody on Warseer with worldly knowledge to surpass that a fourteen year old should have.

AdmiralDick
20-10-2008, 12:00
Given the growing importance of China in the current era, and the past precedent of its previous importance throughout practically all of world history, by simple numbers and proportion one should realistically expect more Asians (if one assumes distinct recognizable modern ethnicities in the future) or more "blended" mixed ethnicities in the future.

actually the largest factors will likely be the predominant races that manage to colonise other planets and environmental factors on those planets. if China does manage to colonise the moon, say, then it likely that all the majority of ethnic Lunars will appear similar to Chinese, however the separation and distance between the Earth and Moon will force a cultural difference between the two groups, regardless of communications technology. just think how different England and the USA are despite years of being ruled by the English (the difference was great enough for the States to demand independence). if history has taught us anything its that human differences will continue to grow and there will never be a point where races and ethnicities merge into one homogeneous group (unless our hand is forced by an ethnocentric totalitarian regime).


One particular failing and a pet peeve of mine is the tendency for some designers to have an obvious caricature of samurai Japan shoehorned in somehow, as a token "exotic" non-mainstream culture

whilst i don't regard it as an automatic fail, it certainly set it up to. curiously Wizards of the Coast managed to avoid this with careful and considered research for their Kamigawa cycle, which contained a lot of specifically Japanese imagery and mythology (including Samurai).


Samurai were not the uber unbeatable warriors fanboys make them out to be, and there is also more to Japan both good and bad than just samurai, swords, and ninjas.

agreed, but their are reasons that we have Stereotypes. they may not explain every characteristic of all individuals in a group, but they do give you a basic (if perhaps exaggerated) understanding of the similar properties of those individuals. so i am not against Samurai, but they are not a short cut to culture.


Seriously, this race question should go in the FAQ thread.[...] It's not rascism, it's just the theme of the universe.

i don't think the OP questioned whether it was racist, just that it was weird that there didn't appear to be much ethnic diversity in the 41st millennium. is there a reason for this, or is it just laziness?


Last time i checked none of those exist in 40k anymore. Id like somebody to show me an african or asian or european space marine or guardsmen considering the vast majority have almost very little connection to earth much less the earth of today. Why do people keep bringing this subject up when it has no relevance to the game whatsoever? Why does GW have to paint models with a correct representation of ethnicities (as if that made any sense anyways)? Why does anyone care since you are the one who paints your models and you decide how they get painted even if you have someone else paint them?

i think the question is focused on why there is no ethnic diversity in the 41st Millennium, rather than why isn't the population of the universe African. sadly, being stuck on Earth we are limited to examples of ethnicity that we have around us, so we can only compare black/African with white/European rather than purple/Venusian.

nevertheless, it begs the question, if ethnicity is going to become more diverse and groups become more isolated and separated for longer or if ethnicity is going to become less diverse because of homogenisation or one race simply trumping the others in colonising the stars, why white people? why not Africans?


Having black people is great how else are you gonna distinguish the conscripts from the regulars? ;)

was it Operation Human Shield from South Park?


Ask and ye shall recieve:
White Scars, their entire planet is of asian descent, hence...

strange then, that if he is of Oriental decent that he shares little or no physical characteristics of Oriental people. that Marine, is clearly a white man with a big ol' handle bar and top knot. no more convincing than John Wayne.

real Mongols look like this (http://www.cinemaisdope.com/news/films/mongol/Mongol-1024-1-1.jpg), or this (http://www.thedieselgypsy.com/Mongolia-bird%20man.jpg), or this (http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e189/anda_mn/Mongolian%20people/2fc88082fcec5c0dfb352e30036bc9af.jpg) or this (http://www.mongoliatrekking.com/travel-pictures/images/mongolian%20wrestler_jpg.jpg).

okay, so perhaps its best he doesn't resemble the last one.


Yes, I'm going to hell when I die.

may be even before that!

Luisjoey
20-10-2008, 13:57
is dark gothic fantasy, so everybody is pale

yesterday i painted the skin of my catachans... i took five and painted in a dark flesh + dwarf flesh, obtaining a good coloration... but i cant paint a indian (or halfbrood) latin american... i tried with the leather snake buts looks strange, maybe need some ink.

09Project
20-10-2008, 14:38
Ok maybe you should think about where the 40k and fantasy roots are. And clearly the most obvious is a certain wee set of books a few of which were called the Lord of the Rings.

And those wee books were kind of important. Tolkein worried that England didn't have a history of fantasy story telling. You had Viking lore, Celtic lore, all around the world people had these great fantasy histories from down the ages. In one way Tolkein set to change this with Lord of the Rings, it is essentially about England, and the Anglo-Saxons more specifically, taken with glorious chunks of the world as it was in turn of the 20th century England with a added extra of WW1 hell.

Warhammer Fantasy and 40k is hugely influenced by this. It has expanded over the years, but I would agree, it is a characture of Europe in the end. And the threats it faced over the course of history, the crazyness of the Inquisition, The Mongul Tribes, the futile Crusades to the middle east. It takes all this history from Europe and mixes it with Tolkein style fantasy. And it works, because it gives the huge crazy worlds we all enjoy to play games in.

But strictly, you can design something, or write something as much as you want, you can't control it. GW yes uses stereotypes, but that is its bread and butter. A stereotype is understood, often across borders and boundries. They have added different ethnicities into it over time, but largely say Space Marines background, it has always said it up to you what you want, and that sticks with skin colour as much as anything else. Most of the space marine main chapters are based on European historical stereotypes, and perhaps unsurprisingly end up white.

I do believe this will change, another thing to remember is that for most of its live time GW main haven was Britain then Eastern Europe took to it, it slowly ground across the world. America is a huge market now, and that should be brilliant, I know from speaking to staffers that feeling in America adapted storylines. As the game expands world wide you will see more influences come in.

But should the 40k and Fantasy universes be an accurate representation on modern day society in Nottingham? Should all books have appropiate percentages of various ethnicities? Should all dwarves in MMORPG games stop sounding like pissed off scotsmen?

I would say no no and yes preferably please, I live in Scotland and the people are surprisingly taller.

The 40K and Fantasy universes are merely a framework, what you the player wants to add on top is up to you, and everything goes, even green guardsmen..

As for the fluff and background, I been around for what now 17 years reading it, a lot of the stuff that comes out today is just refound old stuff, new fluff will always add new content and I do believe that content will start to reflect the expanding way the hobbie is going on a world basis..

Oh and just on the samuri thing, course they going to use the stereotype, by eck lad, if everything was nice and historicaly factual the GW universes would be horrifically dull. To be honest on the stereotype thing too, no one has as much fun poked at them as white europeans at the end of the day in both settings.

Supremearchmarshal
20-10-2008, 14:46
What about those guys in the cover of Battle for Armageddon boardgame? AFAIK they were supposed to be Salamanders:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/174259

That's pretty ancient stuff, before the Dark Angels nicked the Salamander's cool colour scheme. (DA originally had black armour)

Simon Sez
20-10-2008, 14:51
strange then, that if he is of Oriental decent that he shares little or no physical characteristics of Oriental people. that Marine, is clearly a white man with a big ol' handle bar and top knot. no more convincing than John Wayne.

Maybe its Jaghatai Khan? He would have no ethnic resemblence to dominant ethnic group of Mundus Planus, being born of the Emperor, yet he would likely adopt local styles and customs (i.e. handlebar moustache and top knot)

Lord Malice
20-10-2008, 15:02
...have evolved from black African origins...

Firstly, evolved is not the right word, people have adapted. However it is a fallacy to say that since people originated in Africa they were all black as the modern people of Africa are today as the black mutation occured many thousands of years later; recent discoveries even theorise that humans actually came out of asia and not africa at all or that human populations may have come out of much earlier migrations.

Early human skulls have been reconstructed and found to have a blend of european and native american facial features with distinct almond shaped faces. At this period in time the African continent was incredibly cold with the polar ice caps almost at the equator. Scientists believe (no-one can know for sure) that these early humans would most likely have had a pale olive skin; even skin pigmentation of Neanderthals has recently been revised).

As the ice caps retreated some human group followed them. Some went north and from them are descended modern europeans and others went east. Those who stayed behind were exposed to increasing amounts of sunlight, so much so that they were born with permanent tans, wiry hair witch provides much more surface area to disperse heat, taller (again more surface area) broader nostrils (partly to take in moreair in a breath due to many african people having to walk long distances but in opposite fasion the colder the climate the thicker and smaller the nostrils as they have more blood vessels which warm cold air so it doesn't freeze the lungs) and more lung capacity (again for those long walks).

Even some modern black africans have the occasional throw-back to a time when they had paler skin. Some are born without melanin and while they are 'black' they have white skin or often a patchy skin with areas of white and balck skin, this does not happen in ethnic groups with pale skin however (but all ethnicities may have albinos). The current theory then is that early humans were of an olivey-light brown complexion but ethnicities like caucasion and negroid came later.

For humans on other worlds, many we know to have reverted to a 'barbaric' state or even evolved into ab-humans it is entirely feasible (the mutation for white skin occured roughly eight thousand years ago so, thirty-eight thousand years coupled with alien environments) that new ethnicities will have developed that we haven't encountered, may never encount, on earth.

For Imperial worlds like Valhalla say, it seems likely that those humans that have lived there for tens of thousands of years will have a russian look (as the games developers intended) but as we know Commisars are always from other worlds, as are the Arbites so it makes sense that while the tock type will be of one ethnicity, at least in the Age of the Imperium many other ethnic (I would say many thousands compared to what we have now) will have been brought in. In which case it is perfectly reasonable to have a mixed skin pigmentations on your models.

Eryx_UK
20-10-2008, 17:23
i paint my guardsmen white , aian, ethnic and black, am the ony gamer i know with mixed race humans

Not at all. My space marines are a mixture of black and white ethnicities from scouts through veterans.

weissengel86
20-10-2008, 18:57
i think the question is focused on why there is no ethnic diversity in the 41st Millennium, rather than why isn't the population of the universe African. sadly, being stuck on Earth we are limited to examples of ethnicity that we have around us, so we can only compare black/African with white/European rather than purple/Venusian.

nevertheless, it begs the question, if ethnicity is going to become more diverse and groups become more isolated and separated for longer or if ethnicity is going to become less diverse because of homogenisation or one race simply trumping the others in colonising the stars, why white people? why not Africans?



was it Operation Human Shield from South Park?

Yes operation human shield was an influence lol.

The very question why white people is stupid since it doesnt matter. A fictional universe can have whatever the creators want. Why does GW not have "ethnic diversity"? Who the hell cares? If i created a fictional universe am I required to have "ethnic diversity"? Since when were writers of fiction required to properly forecast genetic diversity and political correctness? I should be able to do whatever I want. If I market the universe with a game while encouraging people to make their own fluff and unique paint jobs why is this even an issue? Do people have to bring controversy to every goddamn thing in the universe? Are people really so utterly lame as to bring this crap into a game? If i want all white people then by god im gonna have all white people. If i want mixed ethnicities then you know what im gonna do? Im gonna have mixed ethnicities! If GW doesnt represent all the ethnicities does it make a difference? It may not be realistic but since when does reality apply to 40k?

g0ddy
20-10-2008, 20:46
Feel free to correct me if Im wrong.... Given that the vast majority of 40k-related artwork is in black and white....

Why is it that you think cultural diversity is misrepresented?

Btw - I only recently started painting "white" flesh... ;)

EDIT : one of the oddest bits of imagery I find in 40k is the "blacker-than-black" skin tone GW has decided to endow the Salamanders with.

~ zilla

MrBigMr
20-10-2008, 21:15
may be even before that!
Sorry, not interested in marrying you. There's a 5 drink minimum on that.

kikkoman
20-10-2008, 21:40
but i think you only looked at it from the "lol @ religion" perspective. In 40k and in Fantasy, the world *really* IS ending. There ARE demons. There ARE angels. Im not sure how you can call a lot of that "dumb blind faith" when the proof is looking up at the sky and seeing it stare right back at you ;)


ah, I just wanted to use the stereotypical wording, since stereotypes are generally negative sounding (ex: scheming asians, savage africans, crusading europeans). Yeah, 40k is "all of that is true, and worse", and the good guys are called 'Inquisitors'!

I love the Imperium of Man, it is a horrible, grim and dark setting where to live day to day, to confront all the horrors that await in the void, you gotta have Faith. When you're just joe guardsmen with a flashlight and paper armor, Faith is what makes the difference. Faith that you'll die for what's right, or maybe survive to fight another day.
The odds are impossible, but as long as men of faith still stand, the Imperium will persevere.

The visuals that come from this are fantastic, and nothing else is like it. A guardsmen with a prayer slip on his shoulder guard, superhuman crusader warriors, and incredibly massive and lovingly crafted cathedral-battleships. I just love the culture behind the Imperium, and it's lovingly, beautifully, distinctly European.







I think you can draw comparisons of the xenophobia with Europe getting Invaded several times by outside powers of very impressive martial skill. You have the Muslim's of Dar Al Islam in Spain all the way up to Tours, France. Huns and Mongols too. While i agree you are right in that it is charactures of what Europe was

I see the aliens and other "enemies of the Imperium" as representative of these foreign invaders. The cultured depravity and inscrutibly alien Eldar, the savage horde of the orks, look at how the Persians are portrayed in 300, or how the Mongols are devolved into inhuman savages.


i think it devalues the people at the time looking at their current world events and knowledge base when we are looking at the past with such "lol, they were nubs". :D
I'm using 'stereotype' words on purpose, 40k is a gross and extreme caricature of culture, what makes it wonderful and work is the people who made it UNDERSTAND the culture, because it is their own culture! They're British, they're Europeans, they're westerners, and they created the Imperium of Man, full of Inquisitors and Heretics.

it's GRIMDARK Monty Python, from the 2000AD self-loathing British 80's

kikkoman
20-10-2008, 21:53
strange then, that if he is of Oriental decent that he shares little or no physical characteristics of Oriental people. that Marine, is clearly a white man with a big ol' handle bar and top knot. no more convincing than John Wayne.


Hahah, yeah I feel that way too.
I also feel it intrudes upon the themes of the foreign/xenos races in 40k.

Lightning Speed and precision is the domain of the Eldar.
Savage furry capped raiders is the domain of Orks.

Mongols also look out of place standing next to the Space Vikings, Space Crusaders, Other Space Crusaders, S'more Space Crusaders, Space Knights, The Other Space Knights,
and the Space Egytpians, well, they turned to Chaos anyways. (Maybe the Space Mongols could've worked as Chaos Mongols? It fits the imagery)

Heck, the only properly Mongol-style armylist would be 3ed Craftworld Saim Hann "starcannon vyper" Eldar.
Run rings around the space crusaders with superior speed and firepower.

Supremearchmarshal
20-10-2008, 22:12
(Maybe the Space Mongols could've worked as Chaos Mongols? It fits the imagery)

Oh please no, along with pseudo-Nazi Stormtroopers and Roman Legionarie-lookalikes, Savage Mongol-wannabes are the most over-used bad guys ever.


Heck, the only properly Mongol-style armylist would be 3ed Craftworld Saim Hann "starcannon vyper" Eldar.

How about the Dark Eldar? They do it even better ;)

grimsnagga
20-10-2008, 23:55
For humans on other worlds, many we know to have reverted to a 'barbaric' state or even evolved into ab-humans it is entirely feasible (the mutation for white skin occured roughly eight thousand years ago so, thirty-eight thousand years coupled with alien environments) that new ethnicities will have developed that we haven't encountered, may never encount, on earth.


Just as a note, in the background for Dark Heresy (the 40K RPG) the citizens of the planet Dreah have grey skin and hair.

When the "other" has scales, tenticles and/or a tail, the idea of being concerned about skin color is pretty absurd (not that it isn't absurd anyway).

Fixer
21-10-2008, 00:16
That's pretty ancient stuff, before the Dark Angels nicked the Salamander's cool colour scheme. (DA originally had black armour)

and yes, you know how they did that? A misprint in the colour guide had the Dark Angels with the Salamanders picture.

Or could this be the truth of Dark Angels most terrible secret? Amongst all their pretty robes and fancy hats the legion was split over a disagreement over fashion and colour co-ordination. "Oh we must have that dark green like the Salamanders Legion! Black is sooooooo last millenium. Oh, but make sure that the Salamanders wear something else to the party. I'd die if we all turn up wearing the same outfit."

As for the colours of Salamanders skin. Yes, originally they were coal black which was a gene defect from Vulkan (whos own skin was scorched black by the heat of his adoptive world) also, the Salamanders could see into the infrared spectrum. GW has been fairly inconsistant, having white Salamanders, Brown and now returning to full on black again.

As for me, I'm keeping my personal Salamanders painted up as an army of Samuel L. Jacksons and Morgan Freemans.

Had enough of those Tyranids on the Battlebarge.

Helsing
21-10-2008, 02:00
Dude, it all comes down to evolution. The human species originated in Central Africa, thus we are all soul brothers deep down, but the only reason our skin was black was because it was meant to not absorb as much UV Radiation. Now when he started getting into Europe and Asia, we went white because our skin needed to absorb that very same UV radiation for us to survive. I am sure that there are plenty of coloured people in 40k, but Cadians, Vostroyans, Krieg, Tallarn and Praetorians are white because of where they live.

AdmiralDick
21-10-2008, 10:18
That's pretty ancient stuff, before the Dark Angels nicked the Salamander's cool colour scheme. (DA originally had black armour)

dude! i had always looked at that picture and thought that they were a Dark Angel's devastator squad! they didn't look anything like salamanders to me... until now.

oh, the innocence of youth.


For humans on other worlds, many we know to have reverted to a 'barbaric' state or even evolved into ab-humans it is entirely feasible (the mutation for white skin occured roughly eight thousand years ago so, thirty-eight thousand years coupled with alien environments) that new ethnicities will have developed that we haven't encountered, may never encount, on earth.

this is exactly the reason that i find it strange when people try to invoke homogenisation reasoning.


For Imperial worlds like Valhalla say, it seems likely that those humans that have lived there for tens of thousands of years will have a russian look (as the games developers intended) but as we know Commisars are always from other worlds, as are the Arbites so it makes sense that while the tock type will be of one ethnicity, at least in the Age of the Imperium many other ethnic (I would say many thousands compared to what we have now) will have been brought in. In which case it is perfectly reasonable to have a mixed skin pigmentations on your models.

agreed, but to an extent that would imply that certain ethnicities wouldn't mix. it would be unlikely that a Commissar would marry a local, considering its his job to look down on them.


The very question why white people is stupid since it doesnt matter. A fictional universe can have whatever the creators want. Why does GW not have "ethnic diversity"? Who the hell cares? If i created a fictional universe am I required to have "ethnic diversity"? Since when were writers of fiction required to properly forecast genetic diversity and political correctness? I should be able to do whatever I want.

whilst the question might not have an immediate impact on the game it does have one. writers are free to describe any universe they want, but they must say whether they want us to participate in a version of our own universe or an unrelated, fantastical one. 40k is the former, it is set in the far distant future of our own world, in our own space and with our own laws to govern it. now, no one is expecting GW to predict the future, just tell a story, but if they want to suggest something in our own universe then they need to acknowledge it (with or without explanation) so that we can feel at home there.

the problem with the ethnicity issue is that it is so clearly opposed to real life experience. there are many forms of human ethnicity and all evidence suggests that populating the galaxy will lead to greater diversity, and yet we see that the future does not hold ethnic diversity. does this mean the game is not about our galaxy or does it mean that something has upset the balance of ethnic variance? the solution is either for GW to say outright in the background that there is little ethnic divergence in the 41st millennium, or correct the issue and make more models and imagery that portrays the universe as diverse.


Why is it that you think cultural diversity is misrepresented?

Btw - I only recently started painting "white" flesh... ;)

because skin tone is only one aspect of racial difference. and a fairly slight one at that. when i tan i can go as brown as an Indian who has been out of the sun for a year. does that mean we are the same race? or even look similar?

custom, dress and physical appearance are just as important, and such things are almost always over-looked in miniature design and even art work.


Sorry, not interested in marrying you. There's a 5 drink minimum on that.

cutting.

no more flirting with you over PM.


(Maybe the Space Mongols could've worked as Chaos Mongols? It fits the imagery)

i guess its a grim irony that they would have been portrayed with more culture had they been bad-guys rather than good.


I am sure that there are plenty of coloured people in 40k, but Cadians, Vostroyans, Krieg, Tallarn and Praetorians are white because of where they live.

so its all down to UV light? which is why the Tallarns who live in a sun scorched desert and the Valhallans who live in a lightless ice-tomb world are both white?

even if we accepted that some planets are the same all over, like Valhalla and Tallarn, it doesn't account for all of them. if we compare the ethnic diversity of Earth with somewhere similar like Macragge or Cadia (which should have its ethnic diversity helped along by Warp radiation), then we very quickly see that such planets have little or no diversity, where they should have greater.

MrBigMr
21-10-2008, 11:56
this is exactly the reason that i find it strange when people try to invoke homogenisation reasoning.
Talking of homos, is there any evidence of gays or lesbians in the grim darkness of the far future? Or any other type of deviance from the white bread norm, like maybe transgenders or something? There's the two cases of human-Eldar relations in the background (with offsprings), but other than that I don't think I've come across anything apart from the S&M plays of Slaanesh worshipers.


cutting.

no more flirting with you over PM.
*sob*
Why do I always leave myself open to rejection?
*bwaaaaaa!*


even if we accepted that some planets are the same all over, like Valhalla and Tallarn, it doesn't account for all of them. if we compare the ethnic diversity of Earth with somewhere similar like Macragge or Cadia (which should have its ethnic diversity helped along by Warp radiation), then we very quickly see that such planets have little or no diversity, where they should have greater.
Maybe when the Emperor's crusade began, the whitey Marines though all non-whiteys to be mutants and shot them? And after that the practice has been continued unabated.

The Hawk Lord
26-10-2008, 20:45
same as Blacula, very similar in fact

Apocalypse
27-10-2008, 04:23
There ARE blacks in the fluff, i've heard of at least one black inquisitor... I think he was in a Souldrinkers novel...

Wolfblade670
28-10-2008, 15:56
*sigh*, and I thought people played these games to get away from real world issues. I guess I'm a freak...