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View Full Version : warriors of chaos are one dimensional...um, so what?



lord mekri
20-10-2008, 16:27
i keep seeing comments about how "boring" the new warriors of chaos will be. that they are so one dimensional, have very limited tactics, etc...

and i say "yeah, so what's your point??"

i am first and foremost a warriors of chaos general. even when you could mix and match chaos, i rarely did. my beasts were my beasts, my warriors were my warriors, and demons were a dash of flavor at best.
in addition to a huge warriors of chaos army, and a good size beast army, i also have all three elf armies at 4000pts plus, 2000 pts of dwarfs and brets, and a big mess of VC. so, you know, i play alot. and a lot of varity....

each army has a flavor too it, a style, and a obvious tactical way of going about things. chaos is no exception.

warrios of chaos (and really, in their own way, all chaos be they demons, beasts or mortals) are close combat armies. 90% or more, they are designed to close in and kill face to face. that is what they do. it is what they have alsways done. it is what they excell at. yes, they have some magic, at times very good magic, to help. but chaos is the horde of screaming blood hungry foes charging forward to rip and hack the civilizations of the world into ruin.
they dont need stealth (well, beasts do, but that's thier thing). they dont need firepower to thin the ranks. they dont need tricks, and cunning.
they have what they need to do the job.

if you want tactically variable units that can do lots of different things, an army filled with options like flyers, and scouts, and shooters and things, well, there are a whole slew of armies out there that have that. of course, i dont care how quick the high elf is, how hate filled the dark elf is, how green and mean the orc is, warriors of chaos will spank them in hand to hand.
and that is good. let us be shot, we will get there and we will do what we do best. the one main flaw we had (being shot at with no return) has been addressed in a great, characterful way. we are re-rolling panic. so we are really no going anywhere. and alomost every bleesing the dark gods provide yet more protection form being shot or running from it. minus to hit us? ward saves on tope of great toughness and armor? immunity to panic completely?
yes, go a ahead, shoot us. reallym its the only way you stand a chance. you need to thing us out. becasue when we get to your lines, even after losing some of our number, you will fall.

sorry about the rant, and the chaos cheerleading, but really, hereing people complian that chaos doesnt have enough flexiblity is like hearing a dwarf player complain they have no skirmishers and cavalry.

if you want guns and shooting and scouts and a little bit of everything... you can always play empire :) after all, my chaos army needs men of the south to hack apart :)

so... opinions? feel free to argue the point with me.

loveless
20-10-2008, 17:08
I won't argue the point, but I'll give you a good lot of agreement.

Good to see some positive views on the new Warriors book. Truth be told, a lot of the negativity towards it seems to be dying down, even on Warseer, the Dark Elves of the wargaming world (or maybe it just feels like the members have Eternal Hatred sometimes :p)

I have this feeling...and maybe it's just wishful of me...but it feels like WoC are going to perform a lot better than people seem to think. WoC have always looked like that wall of spikes in old movies - it's coming closer and it's going to get you and crush you, no matter what you do. The new book feels more like that than previous ones have. Just my opinion, of course.

SolarHammer
20-10-2008, 17:16
It's just like Brets if that book was changed so they couldn't do anything well.

Great, now there's 2 uni-dimensional armies that do nothing but charge or hope to charge.

Unique flavour my butt, one is just a better army than the other.

EmperorNorton
20-10-2008, 17:49
I don't think Brets and WoC are very similar at all, but I guess it depends on how much you simplify things.
The game has only four phases and there is only so much variety these can offer.

Braad
20-10-2008, 17:56
Warriors of chaos are not 1-dimensional. They are at least 4-dimensional: Depth, width, height and (presumably) time. But maybe there's more to discover :D
But I get the point and completely disagree.
Not that warriors is boring, but to the 1-sided part. They have light (marauders) and heavy core (warriors), they have light and heavy cav, flying daemon princes, super-hack&slash characters, sorcerers (though I don't know yet how powerfull they can be), quite a few nice monsters to pick from. What is 1-sided about that?
They haven't got scouts, skirmishers and not much shooting (hellcannon...). More or less like my O&G, and no-one is saying they haven't got flavour?

I think its not as bad as people think, we'll just be needing some generals that are a bit imaginative.

SolarHammer
20-10-2008, 18:05
They haven't got scouts, skirmishers and not much shooting (hellcannon...). More or less like my O&G, and no-one is saying they haven't got flavour?

Your army may well be boring, but the O&G army has Skirmishers, and several varieties of war machines.

Chaos has none, and one.

O&G has multiple varieties of troops that fulfill very different roles on the table (squig herds are very different from Orc boys which are very different from Night Goblins with Fanatics which are very different from Black Orcs.

Chaos has Marauders which are different from Chaos Warriors, which are practically the same as Chosen, which are practically the same as Forsaken. Chaos has Trolls which are practically the same as Chaos Ogres which are practically the same as Dragon Ogres.

Chaos units only fulfill 3 or 4 of the possible unit type categories, and most of their units are just variations and repetitions on the same theme so no matter which unit you take from the category, it's practically the same effect. Every O&G unit is very different from each, even if it's under the category "infantry." Every Chaos unit is practically the same as at least one (and sometimes 2 or 3) other units in the army.

That's boring, and frankly a little stupid.

Tokamak
20-10-2008, 18:10
Your army may well be boring, but the O&G army has Skirmishers, and several varieties of war machines.

We have skirmishers! Awesome, that's a very good thing to know, I've always liven under the presumptions that we didn't.

SolarHammer
20-10-2008, 18:16
We have skirmishers! Awesome, that's a very good thing to know, I've always liven under the presumptions that we didn't.
You've always "liven" under the "presumptions" that Squig Hoppers were not in the book?

:wtf:

Ozorik
20-10-2008, 18:21
Not everyone has English as their first language therefore taking the **** is pretty bad form.

Secondly squig hoppers are not skirmishers in the traditional sense.

SolarHammer
20-10-2008, 18:36
Not everyone has English as their first language therefore taking the **** is pretty bad form.

Secondly squig hoppers are not skirmishers in the traditional sense.


SPECIAL RULES: Hate Dwarfs; Immune to Psychology; Skirmish; Boiiing!

Looks like they are "skirmishers in the traditional sense," whatever the hell that means.

It's on page 55 of my book anyways, and is even repeated in the Bestiary entry on page 26, and in the summary on page 58.

loveless
20-10-2008, 19:32
I think "traditional sense" implies "skirmishers whose movement distance you control"

The "Boiiing!" rule makes Squig Hoppers a bit more similar to Chaos Spawn than to normal skirmishers in regards to movement...something like 3D6" inches in the nominated direction, no?

SolarHammer
20-10-2008, 19:40
Uhh yeah, but that was never at issue in this conversation. I said O&G had skirmishers. There was a sarcastic reply to the contrary.

I never said "Orcs and Goblins have access to skirmishers with a set movement value that can charge enemies in the usual manner" so I don't know what that has to do with anything. Wait a minute... Maybe I did say that crazy ungainly god-awful sentence. Let me check.


but the O&G army has Skirmishers
Oh good. Looks like I didn't.

At any rate, I would trade all the Spawn in China (that's where they come from because they keep feeding melamine to their babies) for Squig hoppers because they are 1d6 faster. 2d6 just won't be enough for Chaos players to defend their backfield with Spawn. It's just too slow.

Ozorik
20-10-2008, 20:01
Skirmishers in the traditional sense are light infantry, something which squig hoppers are manifestly not.

I was also not being sarcastic.

Do you have to be so objectionable Solarhammer?

SolarHammer
20-10-2008, 20:11
Oh, so now we have two definitions of "traditional sense":

I think "traditional sense" implies "skirmishers whose movement distance you control"

Skirmishers in the traditional sense are light infantry

Good thing neither definition actually counts for anything, even better thing that I NEVER MENTIONED SKIRMISHERS IN THE TRADITIONAL SENSE.

I mentioned skirmishers. Just skirmishers. I said the O&G book has skirmishers in it.

I stand by that statement.

I've quoted the relevant rules.

You can quibble about "random movement" or whether 1W at T3 with no save makes them "light infantry" (in my opinion it certainly does and they are certainly not "heavier" than Plague Censer Bearers, Wraiths, Wardancers or Flamers). You can do whatever you like, but your post made no sense given the context of the situation.

Imagine if I had said "Germany had tanks during World War II" and posted a series of pictures of Tiger II's and Leopards.

Now imagine someone chiming in with "But those aren't tanks in the traditional sense."

It would be madness, and that's what you've brought here.

It was a complete non sequitur, and more than a little meaningless as the different definitions of "traditional sense" have already showed.

EDIT: Yes, I realized your post wasn't sarcastic. The sarcastic one went a little something like this:

We have skirmishers! Awesome, that's a very good thing to know, I've always liven under the presumptions that we didn't.
Now maybe I jumped the gun, and maybe he was honestly saying that he had never read his army book well enough to notice one of the unit options. By crediting him with a shred of intelligence (as is only fair to do), I came to the conclusion that the above quoted reply was sarcastic. Are you trying to say that Tokamak is an honest idiot? Because that's not very nice and I certainly do not endorse that position. I'd rather think of him as a regular person who posted something snarky.

Ozorik
20-10-2008, 20:31
but your post made no sense given the context of the situation.

Yes it did actually. Just because squig hoppers have the skirmish rule does not allow them to function as skirmishers in the traditional sense (which, incidentally, means light infantry used to distrupt enemy formations and/or screen your own).

which rather invalidates:


I NEVER MENTIONED SKIRMISHERS IN THE TRADITIONAL SENSE

But this is completely irrelevent to the discussion at hand.

Seriously you need to at least try to keep your vitriol in check.

If you have a burning desire to continue this 'discussion' PM me as I wont be replying on this topic again.

W0lf
20-10-2008, 20:36
Guys stop being anal about wording.

The point with chaos is exactly the first sentence.


i keep seeing comments about how "boring" the new warriors of chaos will be. that they are so one dimensional, have very limited tactics, etc...

and i say "yeah, so what's your point??"

My point is they are boring, one dimensional and have very limited tactics as you highlighted.

You then said you dont care, others do. Not much of a discussion tbh.

Shamfrit
20-10-2008, 20:55
Do Wolf and Solarhammer ever get tired of hearing their own voices?

Captain Brown
20-10-2008, 20:56
Was there any particular reason some members decided to get rude with one another?

I am locking the thread and we may decide to take action.

Captain Brown
WarSeer Inquisition