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View Full Version : Flank combats - who fights?



Tsear
21-10-2008, 17:42
Suppose I charge a unit in 5x5 formation in the front and in the flank, so that a total of 9 models are engaged. The unit in front gets 2 kills, the unit in the side gets 7 kills. Can anyone fight back? Either the 7 kills from the unit on the side also kill enemies in the front, meaning no one does, or those 7 kills just overkill their flank, leaving 2 enemies to hit my unit in front.

Similarly, suppose the same situation happens but my flank unit kills 4 and my front unit kills 1. Do I choose which model is removed from my attacks, or does my opponent? If I choose, can I have the front squad kill a model on the corner, and have the flank squad kill the other 4 they're engaged with, or is this not how it works?

Thanks for helping a noob out =)

McMullet
21-10-2008, 17:59
This is always a fiddly one. :) I don't think the rulebook or available FAQs are clear on the matter.

First example: The flanking unit is definitely safe. Whether the front unit is safe is debatable. Common sense says there's no reason that the flankers would kill 2 guys from the front rank. Fair play says that if you've got a flank and front charge it's OK to be generous to your opponent. ;) Sadly the rulebook is not forthcoming on this matter.

Second example: Interestingly, the rulebook actually talks about allocating attacks to individual trooper models, rather than the unit as a whole (pp32-33), which would suggest you could pre-allocate an attack to the guy on the corner. Personally I think that seems odd, and would slow down the game, but that's the best I can do rules-wise. Otherwise, I'd suggest you randomise it.

Hopefully someone else can be more enlightening...

Festus
21-10-2008, 20:59
Hi

The rulebook states rather clearly, that each casualty suffered by a unit reduces the number of attacks that can be made by the unit.

BRB, p.36

This means that a unit of 5x5, which is taken from the front and one flank loses 9 models before it is their turn, is not able to attack back. This only applies to troopers, so if there is a character or champion present AND in base-to-base-contact AND not a casualty himself, the character or champion may strike back.

BRB, p. 76f., 81

Festus

Chaos Undecided
21-10-2008, 21:25
Personally any game I've been involved in in such a situation working out who can attack back has been worked out separately for each facing of the unit rather than the unit on a whole (with the model on the corner obviously being a potential target for both facings). So in the above situation ignoring the potential for champions and characters 2 models would still get to attack back to the unit engaged at the front.

The rule Festus referenced would seem to contradict this way of playing but then it also seems to completely ignore the possibility of a unit being engaged from more than one facing in the way its worded.

Everyone I've played against so far has used the individual facing approach to casaulty removal/fighting back.

Bob the Butcher
21-10-2008, 22:30
The front of the unit being charged would get 2 rank & file back one of which could be the champion if he wasn't killed.

Characters can also strike back if they weren't targeted.

Tsear
22-10-2008, 07:12
Characters of course change the whole business. Thanks for your help guys, I'll try randomising and working it out with my opponent, shouldn't be a situation that comes up too often anyway.

McMullet
22-10-2008, 12:14
Hi

The rulebook states rather clearly, that each casualty suffered by a unit reduces the number of attacks that can be made by the unit.

BRB, p.36

Sorry Festus, but the BRB is not remotely clear in the context of Flank charges.

"...casualties fall among the rank that is fighting..."

In a flank charge, usually, every rank has a model fighting. I would say that this could equally suggest that casualties are taken from the models in the rank - or for a flank charge, file - that the particular attacking unit is fighting with.

Now, it does not say: "that each casualty suffered by a unit reduces the number of attacks that can be made by the unit"

What it does say is this: "... models that are removed before they have had a chance to fight may not do so... any casualties inflicted will reduce the number of enemy left to fight back." That's not nearly as clear as how you stated it, in my opinion; it suggest something more like "If there are some casualties, there will be less attacks", but the part about individual models not getting to fight is how we calculate how many less.

The next section on Excess Casualties also implies that the main part of "Removing Casualties" applies only to models in base-to-base contact with the unit whose attacks are being resolved.

I'm afraid I don't think it's as clear as it could be.

N810
22-10-2008, 15:28
I thought all casualites where removed from the back ???
(non-hero/comand models)

McMullet
22-10-2008, 16:09
You actually remove models from the back, but it's front-rankers that die to shooting, and fighting-rankers who die to combat. This is for convenience, but that's why the ones who already got killed can't fight back - if this wasn't the case, striking first would be pretty pointless.