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Major_Blackhart
21-10-2008, 18:32
Ok, here's my big thing.
Alot of people that have seen the Prince are saying that it's not really that great of a model. For the points it costs, I'm likely to agree.
They have disadvantages: kinda lacklustre gifts, no armory access (which sucks IMO because dammit, what's the point of modeling them with all this badass stuff on them if they can't use it!) etc, etc.
However, with the Marks as they are, and the gifts as some of them are, I'm wondering if it's not at least possible in some ways to make the prince relatively tough to kill.
He's already immune to KB because he's 3 models in strength (models greater than 2 are immune to KB I believe. Don't have rulebook on me so I don't know).
With the Mark of Nurgle he can be made tougher to hit at range and in close combat.
With the Fury of Khorne he can get some pretty good magic resistance added in if he's ever targeted by magic (good chance he might be).
He can fly, he's stubborn, and he'll scare the bejeezus out of most units.
He has a ward save already, can be made a bit better with MoT, but that takes away from then benefits of nurgle.
But I think that while his strength and toughness arent truly monstrous enough to show his ultimate power (especially if you choose a combat fiend w/MoK) he can be made really tough for a number of units to take out. I can't really remember what other gifts there are, so if someone could, please let me know.
His access to sorcery can is probably his only redeeming factor. Only problem is he costs so damn much to make a sorcerer, it's really not worth it in points at times. Still, he can make a decently tough close combat sorcerer that can dish out spells.
What do you guys think?

Shamfrit
21-10-2008, 18:37
For around 450 points you can get a multi-role character who is not only considerably better than any non-special character Lord level with similar kit. But has aspects of the Special Characters in him as well.

He can be built to the same strength as Valkia, the same level as Vilitch, the same defence...etc etc.

They are very very viable over the Daemons of Chaos Daemon Prince, that is exponentially undeniable.

Not to mention, the Mantle of Chaos, and the Fury of the Blood God make it almost immune to range fire, with the Mark of Nurgle as well, or the Tzeentchian mark to improve his ward against any shooting that does get through, he's pretty cool.

Harwammer
21-10-2008, 18:59
Frankly I prefered the (EDIT: Old white dwarf list) WoC one; terror causer, tough, stubborn and able to join units. What an awsome character that was!

Dexter099
22-10-2008, 02:57
Yes, the thingie that subtracts D3-1 Strength from arrow fire against him is good.

However, he makes a good mage-killer if you give him the thingie that does d6 st4 hits with no armor saves thignie to throw at mages and the mark of tzeentch.

I'm not looing at the codex now, but there are some nice things that can be done with him.

Kalec
22-10-2008, 04:58
The prince has some very powerful options available. What he lacks is combat power, with just 5 S5 attacks he isn't going to be nearly as deadly as a lord or SC of comparable price.

Braad
22-10-2008, 06:57
Haven't got the new book yet (normal people have to wait) so can't help on setup, but about the model: Get Be'Lakor! One of my friends is about to get one (ssh, don't tell him, its a birthday gift...) and that model is fantastic!

Also, if I see the stuff we get for chaos, he'll be put to good use if held a bit cheaper, and used for a few rounds to hunt warmachines.

Lordsaradain
22-10-2008, 07:13
It's just too bad the exalted daemons were removed. I'm gonna miss using mine.

Latro
22-10-2008, 08:12
The prince has some very powerful options available. What he lacks is combat power, with just 5 S5 attacks he isn't going to be nearly as deadly as a lord or SC of comparable price.

The big difference is that you will have nearly total control when and where the Prince will fight while the action of other Lords is by a much larger part also determined by your opponent.

I don't like the Mantle of Chaos gift though. The ranged attacks that worry me (high strength and multiple wounds) remain very dangerous even when wearing that mantle. Meanwhile the high cost robs me of all the other useful things it could use.


:cool:

Shamfrit
22-10-2008, 10:37
The Mantle, combined with the Fury of the Blood God gives you some severe protection against ranged attacks, be they magical or otherwise - in addition, the Mark of Tzeentch or the Mark of Nurgle will only go to boost that further, especially since the Daemon Prince isn't a large target.

So, Mark of Tzeentch and the Mantle/Fury, gives you MR2, 4+ ward save against anything, and a 3+ save against magical spell damage.

You really can't go wrong.

Morph
22-10-2008, 11:45
I agree with Latro, the mantle is way too many points and doesn't help against a cannonball in the face.

The -1 enemy Ld ability for fear/terror/panic (I forget the name) seems pretty good (though obviously not against Daemons, Vamps etc).

Latro
22-10-2008, 18:13
The Mantle, combined with the Fury of the Blood God gives you some severe protection against ranged attacks, be they magical or otherwise - in addition, the Mark of Tzeentch or the Mark of Nurgle will only go to boost that further, especially since the Daemon Prince isn't a large target.

So, Mark of Tzeentch and the Mantle/Fury, gives you MR2, 4+ ward save against anything, and a 3+ save against magical spell damage.

You really can't go wrong.

It's the Mark of Tzeench and the Fury that make it a good combination, the Mantle doesn't really add all that much to it ... and certainly not for the point it'll cost you.

I'd much rather have things like Word of Agony and Diabolic Splendour on the Prince to improve on the hurt it can spread. The Mantle takes all the other options away for only so-so better protection.


:cool:

SirA
24-10-2008, 10:10
It's the Mark of Tzeench and the Fury that make it a good combination, the Mantle doesn't really add all that much to it ... and certainly not for the point it'll cost you.


well, it depends - s4 fire can be quite a problem without the mantle..
i very much think it depends on the opponent you are facing

Latro
24-10-2008, 13:54
well, it depends - s4 fire can be quite a problem without the mantle..
i very much think it depends on the opponent you are facing

The most common kind of strength 4 shots (crossbowmen and handgunners) are also move-or-fire ... I never had any trouble avoiding those. The only things that really worry my Prince are the things that are least effected by the Mantle so I would still try to avoid those.

The Mantle is a good gift to have, no doubt about that, but not at that cost. It would strip me of the option to spread Terror tests with a -2 to leadership, or having Word of Agony (bye bye cavalry) or a Stream and Roar combination.


:cool:

Shamfrit
24-10-2008, 14:51
I take Diabolic Splendour, Bloodcurdling Roar and Fury of the Blood God on a Lvl. 4 Tzeentch prince now.

= EPIC WIN

Von Wibble
24-10-2008, 21:01
I take Diabolic Splendour, Bloodcurdling Roar and Fury of the Blood God on a Lvl. 4 Tzeentch prince now.

= EPIC WIN

Without seeing your post that was the exact combo I had in mind! Though as I'm not a chaos player it is more the combo for me to avoid. Put a doom banner somewhere as well for extra nastiness.

Mantle imo is terrible for the points - compare it with cloak of hag graef (better effect for 1/3 of the cost). It is worth about 40 points imo. Real shame theer are no gifts to improve combat - though that could make the prince a no brainer.

Curious about a few things though - is a daemon prince just a lord choice and not lord and hero (nothing I can see mentioned either way)? Can he have sorceror only gifts (with levels he is a sorceror surely...a daemon with conjoined heamonculus is quite the conversion opportunity)

Eldramesha
24-10-2008, 21:45
He appears to be a single lord choice as does Archaon. If he takes sorcerer levels, I don't see why he couldn't take sorcerer gifts. It's seems odd if a Tzeentch wizard assumes Daemonhood that he would just drop his sorcererness.

sulla
24-10-2008, 22:14
Mantle imo is terrible for the points - compare it with cloak of hag graef (better effect for 1/3 of the cost). It is worth about 40 points imo. Real shame theer are no gifts to improve combat - though that could make the prince a no brainer.



:rolleyes: Compare a t3 elf to a t5 flying daemon with a ward save and you may see why they are priced differently ;).

That said, I wouldn't use the mantle. d3 doesn't do it for me. Better to lurk with the DP till the threats have been removed than hope you do ok on the strength reduction roll. Other than fury of the blood god, none of the gifts are particularly appealing vs my normal opponents. I would probably rather spend points on boosting him to lvl3 or 4 and spending the rest on the wider army.

Shamfrit
24-10-2008, 22:18
With Infernal Gateway being devoid of any targetting restrictions bar 24" range, lurking is a very good idea.

He also mauls Vargulfs :D

Kalec
24-10-2008, 23:40
Wizard DP takes tendrils of tzeentch. If I am going to risk my 500ish point level 4 mage casting a 15+ uberspell, then I want to make sure it goes off without a hitch. Be able to still take splendour helps as well.

I don't bother with roar, because pretty much anything that it could actually hurt, the prince could maul in combat better or just scare away.

Von Wibble
25-10-2008, 17:59
Kalec - if he is a wizard he won't cast much in combat so there are times where standing back benefits him more. Also he will have turns where he needs to move into position for a devastating charge - the roar gives him something to do in these turns.

sulla - that's why I said 40pts rather than 25. Considering it is worse than the item that seemed fair. You say yourself you wouldn't use it- would you consider it at 5pts? Probably every time. Surely a points cost has to consider the equilibrium within a list between no brainer and worthless. For me 40pts still wouldn't do the trick but others seem to think it would be too good.

Off topic - it is interesting to note a few people whined about the armour of damnation - it used to be cheaper than ther high elf golden shield for a better effect, without stopping you from taking a gw (and remember high elves are supposed to have cheap items). Yet when it gets to a fair cost for its ability there are complaints! Clearly a reason is that such an effect is more useful for HE than Chaos.

Shamfrit
25-10-2008, 20:20
Wizard DP takes tendrils of tzeentch. If I am going to risk my 500ish point level 4 mage casting a 15+ uberspell, then I want to make sure it goes off without a hitch. Be able to still take splendour helps as well.

I don't bother with roar, because pretty much anything that it could actually hurt, the prince could maul in combat better or just scare away.

With the Infernal Puppet what exactly are you scared of?

Kalec
26-10-2008, 02:35
Of the spell not going off at all and me wasting 4 power dice that I don't need to?

60 points for an ability that will prove its worth every player turn in a very crucial and unpredictable phase of the game is, to me, a bargain.

txamil
26-10-2008, 02:52
He can't even get magical attacks. He's useless.