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Hankyaku
21-10-2008, 21:31
Ssssso... I wrote several times, that I'm not just somebody shouting complaints out loud instead of doing something. I also wrote I'm up to write some FAQ, or rewrite, but finally I ended up creating a mini-dex for the Dark Angels.

Also I came up with a supplement to C: SM.

You'll find them both attached to my post.
All of my thoughts are summed in them both along with my e-mail address.

First: I'd like to ask the fellow DA players, and also every player to take a look at the mini-dex and the supplement, and give me your comments on it. Did I overpower the DA (remember, compare overpowering to C:SM, and try to think in an army scale, not only unit scale!), or shall I bring the point costs close to C:SM?
I'm also open for any ideas, just as before.

Second: I'd like to encourage my fellow BA/BT/SW players to use the mini-dex as a template to their home rules. This is in PDF format now (I'm over the size limit.), but should you like to do a mini-dex on your own, just mail me, and I'll send the word version.

And for those who only managed to call DA players whiners, and nerds: please, don't bother writing. I don't do anything else, but what GW told me in their FAQ. If this is still whining to you, or possibly nerdship, then I don't really think we have too much to discuss. I'm open for creative things only. Please understand.

This post contains the latest version of the mini-dex and the supplement. It is updated as necessary. I also attached a Sample HQ entry, should anybody do anything similar.

HsojVvad
22-10-2008, 00:19
@hankyaku, how long it took you to make the mini dex? You must have stayed up 24 hours a day for at least 3 weeks straight without food and drink. I mean come on, GW can't even do it, how did you do it?

Ok seriously now, I am not shure, but I feel too many people are WS 6 BS 5 now. Well here is the problem with making own codex or mini dex. For example, Ezkiel, he costs the same even though he is WS 6 now and BS 5.

Also if you are making it more streamlined to the SM codex, I don't think the Termies can have Apothecary now. Techmarines not using a FOC? This is what lots of people complaining about. Getting the best of both worlds. DA didn't loose anything in your mini dex.

More changes need to be done I believe, and more point costs. Mind you I don't have the C:SM so not shure what thier characters cost.

PotatoLegs
22-10-2008, 00:35
I like how the Drop pod carries a twin linked Heavy bolter and smoke launchers

:3

The Dude
22-10-2008, 02:07
But it is also fair and avoids confusion to use the rules as printed in your Codex.

If players actually had a chat about the game before they start, this wouldn't be an issue, especially since we all recognise which bits could cause confusion.

Why wouldn't you explain things to a noob before starting? The only reason I can think of is to get the jump on them, which if you're concerned about their level of confusion clearly isn't the case.

"Hello, I'm using Dark Angels rules. Have you played against Dark Angels before? No? Well there's a few things that are different with them. Let me just run through them quickly before we start..."

How hard is that?

Ozybonza
22-10-2008, 03:06
Nice mini-dex there!!!

The one thing I'd watch is the Dreadnaught - I noticed you left out the option to have a plasma cannon (which would mean I couldn't field mine!)

Also, don't SM have an option to replace the PF with Lascannons, which was initially a forgeworld DA thing anyway? If I am right about this, I would add that option too.

In addition, I don't think we should get combat tactics or up Belial's points cost (he is pretty useless afterall) - I think Rites of Battle is probably a good substitute for combat tactics anyway.

I would have liked access to the redeemer, but I'm really not complaining about that too much as it would seem greedy :)

cailus
22-10-2008, 03:24
But it is also fair and avoids confusion to use the rules as printed in your Codex.

If players actually had a chat about the game before they start, this wouldn't be an issue, especially since we all recognise which bits could cause confusion.

Why wouldn't you explain things to a noob before starting? The only reason I can think of is to get the jump on them, which if you're concerned about their level of confusion clearly isn't the case.

"Hello, I'm using Dark Angels rules. Have you played against Dark Angels before? No? Well there's a few things that are different with them. Let me just run through them quickly before we start..."

How hard is that?

In my experience problems arise with players not knowing their own ruleset let alone the main rules. Even veterans are notorious for it.

Not everyone is as fanatical about knowing the rules as us Warseer uber-nerds.

The other thing is that people don't often remember things by being told. I always explain some of my basic Orky rules that might cause a stir. I still then get surprised looks when I pull out a Waagh or whatever.

Having multiple rules for same items of kit will create confusion especially when players armies are unpainted or if they involve players whose knowledge of the codexes isn't as complete.

The Dude
22-10-2008, 04:20
Dude, Ive been to tournaments (Official RTT) where people didnt even own rulebooks...


In my experience problems arise with players not knowing their own ruleset let alone the main rules. Even veterans are notorious for it.

This isnít anything to do with the discrepancy between Codices though. Okay it wonít help, but letís be honest, if youíre playing like youíre supposed to, with all used rules on hand, you donít have any excuse. Codices all come with reference pages for a reason (I can say that now the new Ork Codex has come out ;)) and once youíve built your army, most of what you will need can be found there or in the unit entry page. Use bookmarks if you have to.

cailus
22-10-2008, 04:28
It does go both ways.

Players should at least try to have some sort of system of being able to at least refer to their rules.

But at the same time GW should ensure a degree of consistency. One of the great things they did with 4th edition was to standardise a lot of things where they were similar (e.g. Universal Special Rules and the Wargear book).

Now we have the opposite - Codex takes precedence over main rulebook which is rather bizarre given that some books are antiques released in the early days of 3rd edition. This has led to discrepancies in wargear and game play of similar things.

Ronin_eX
22-10-2008, 06:06
But it is also fair and avoids confusion to use the rules as printed in your Codex.

If players actually had a chat about the game before they start, this wouldn't be an issue, especially since we all recognise which bits could cause confusion.

Why wouldn't you explain things to a noob before starting? The only reason I can think of is to get the jump on them, which if you're concerned about their level of confusion clearly isn't the case.

"Hello, I'm using Dark Angels rules. Have you played against Dark Angels before? No? Well there's a few things that are different with them. Let me just run through them quickly before we start..."

How hard is that?

Harder than it would be if they kept things consistent? :p

I don't see why wanting things to be consistent is at all hard. I mean when a UNIVERSAL Special Rule can have different application depending on the Codex used then GW have failed to understand why USR's should be used (to make things easier to learn).

The weapons and wargear are a problem but the USR gaff is beyond the pale here especially as in many cases the difference only exists because they wasted space on re-printing a universal rules (which is silly, we all own a rulebook so wasting space on re-iterating this stuff simply cuts down on fluff/art space).

So I would conjecture that having the individual Codex differ from the printed rules is actually more confusing then treating universal rules as universal.

The whole equipment thing should also be solved by putting common items in the main book (Universal Gear anyone?). Things shared by multiple armies would be easier to put in the main rules to give codices more space for fluff and art and it would limit confusion when it comes to basic equipment. Then if you feel a piece of equipment is underpowered or not useful (for instance the Storm Shield) then you Errata the rules in main rules (and if point costs need changing then simply errata those in other codices instead of wasting space trying to change rules and costs for each army).

I swear gear was so much simpler in 2nd when most of it came from the main rules and only gear unique to armies was presented in the codices (often with lots of room for flavour text, love the Ork arty background :D).

Players tend to require a rulebook to play the game so putting universal rules and gear in there seems to be a better idea than wasting space printing and re-printing weapons from codex to codex. It would also help when certain armies aren't given a stat entry for a weapon to let them know what to use without using a FAQ (see: Blood Angel CML).

So while explaining the differences to you opponent works wouldn't it work better if you didn't have to in the first place (except in cases of truly unique pieces of equipment and rules). Seems to me that if GW are marketing this game toward those playing pick-up games then reducing the amount of time each player needs to explain things to a new opponent would be a good cause.

I understand what you're saying and it isn't hard to explain before a game and some explanation is required no matter what but I don't think that makes adding more on top of that a good thing or even remotely desirable in the first place.

The Dude
22-10-2008, 06:45
Harder than it would be if they kept things consistent? :p

I'm not saying it's ideal, just that it's not as devestating as some people are making it out to be.

Ronin_eX
22-10-2008, 09:43
I'm not saying it's ideal, just that it's not as devestating as some people are making it out to be.

Not devastating but it is certainly symptomatic of a poor design procedure on GW's part which is troubling after all the hubbub last year about them turning over a new leaf, setting a new course and really trying to change the game for the better. So far what I'm seeing is what I saw in early 3rd where things started off "not ideal" but not too bad before degenerating to "worse" until I couldn't put up with the shoddiness of the product anymore and left.

The inconsistencies remind me a lot of the rules-bloat that happened after the release of 3rd but at least in this case the reason for it isn't quite as obvious as it was back then. In 3rd rules bloat came about as developers tried to shoe-horn ideas into an overly simplistic system and thus every key word got its own special rule and often two developers would solve the same problem differently (see heavy CCW and rending).

Now USRs were meant to fix that by making a central rules repository for common rules but instead its purpose seems to have changed and now it seems to only contain the default options for common key words (i.e. if 'scouts' is mentioned in your book but not given rules use the ones found in BRB). Unfortunately this simply means we seem to be going back to the previous method where each codex is a unique snowflake which simply becomes a mess.

Instead of codices actually being forward compatible they simply override the new ruleset with legacy rules that may not even exist anymore (and believe me for new Black Templar players it has to be a pain trying to find out how to make a target priority check in 5th). At this point we have codices ranging over three editions and the rules inconsistencies that crop up make 40k much more convoluted than it needs to be and I think many are starting to get fed up with the design philosophy as well as the production cycle.

GW over the past year have shown me jack that they have changed since 1998 and to me that is reason enough to deny them my patronage until I see actual results on their behalf and the recent hoopla with the DA codex is simply starting to look like the last nail in the coffin for me. Last year I said many times that I would wait and see if they had really changed and if not then I would be taking my money elsewhere. Well if the SM codex and the various poorly written FAQs weren't enough of a signal I don't know what it.

So personally I'm jumping ship now, here's hoping they shape up next edition because I really want to like GW products but their designers seem to revel in giving me reasons to get fed up with them.

Hankyaku
22-10-2008, 10:17
Guys, thank you for the comments on the mini-dex... you've already pointed out some errors, that's why I posted it here. I'll correct them soon.

About Ezekiel... well, yes... I was thinking about him, having a WS6, or letting it be WS5. He's the grand master of librarians at all, why shouldn't he have WS6, as a Special Character. He can't have ANY invulnerable save by the way (oh I forgot, Force Barrier, but then why bring him anyway???), so among Spec Chars, he's weak. But standard libbies DO not have to have this WS6, that's corrcet.
About drop pod: sorry, Correcting it :D

Dread: Sorry, missed the point, I am correcting it. I'm thinking of givin the same point costs, as C: SM. DA doesn't have less access to termies.

About Termie apos: well, that's a tough one. Apos were quite useless until now. Now they're uber. I don't think that an expensive squad of 5 should be denied the FOP, for 30(!!!) points. That means, that +6 points for every model. This would yield in a squad of 5 around 300 points. That's a lot. About 50 points per model, and no banner is included. If you take a look at the overstuffed chaos chosen units back in 4th, they did cost more, and had similar options. I don't think that this is too much of overpowering, but I'll have to playtest (don't forget the max cap of 5 again).

Techmarine: I left the Techmarine option as it is to preserve the army composition of the DA. Remember, even though it does not take a FOC, you have to purchase a tank from the heavy support choice to field a single techmarine. IMHO it is quite a straight limit, because what if I don't want to use tanks from Heavy support, only Devastators (or I do't have the points), but I'd like to have a Techmarine? Can't do. The C: SM contains many-many techmarines (thunderfire cannon, or snigle choices), and I wanted to avoid that. I think that binding the presence of the Adeptus Mechanicus to tanks was just a very great idea from GW. It goes perfectly with fluff, no extra explanations needed!
Frankly I didn't understand the techmarine concept in command squads in the earlier editions.

HSojVad: you're right, the DA didn't lose anything in my mini-dex (except for the scout entry stats, and the chaplain stats, and the psy hood). That was the reason I made the mini dex for, to bring it in line with the SM somewhat. (If the next books follow the SM phylosophy, then DA and the rest of experimental rats -sorry, we were the second experimental rats with radical changes- are in trouble.) It is still a bit inferior to SM (or more like "different") in the point costs and strong limitations. I'm planning to equalize points a bit more, (Vindicator, Tornado, and JP squads - the last only because no DA player used them thanks to huge costs and lack of options.) as I don't really want any fellow DA players to turn to single SM only because of the high point costs. I didn't add any new options (although I admit that I gave powers comparable to Marneus to Sammael and Belial - the reason is simple: they are THE specialists), I just harmonized equipment, and point costs at places. I retained higher point costs, than C: SM except for the dedicated transports.
Higher point costs don't really have a strong reason. It seems, that DA has less access to almost anything than the other chapters do. I didn't add the new units, because I don't think DA really uses the redeemer, or the Thunderfire. It has its own veterans, so I didn't see a point to add stern and vanguards. I really tried to preserve the uniqueness, and also bring them in line, and try not to overpower them.

I'm working on corrections right now, and in the next version, I'll highlight the changes to the DA dex in red. That'll be easier to see for everybody.
Thank you for the comments again, I'd gladly have some more.

Odin
22-10-2008, 11:56
Well, it's a good start certainly.

Dreadnaught is still the horribly overpriced DA one though.

I would suggest that the Sword of Silence and the Raven Sword ought to be Relic Blades (with appropriate increase in cost).

Techmarine is 215 points?!

The Scouts appear to have the reduced stats of Codex:SM, but at the higher cost from Codex: DA.

In general, I would say it would be sensible simply to use the unit entries from Codex:SM for the following units:

Chaplain
Tactical Squads
Scout Squads
Assault Squads
Devastator Squads
all Vehicles (except Ravenwing)


... but just to remove the Combat Tactics rule and the option for Combi-Weapons on Sergeants.


I'm a bit confused by Belial and Sammael's special rules - use of Combat Tactics instead of Fearless. To be fair, I don't think either DW or RW should be Fearless (stubborn perhaps, but not fearless). But if they are, it makes no sense for the leaders of the DW and RW to revoke the rule.

Depends how much work you want to put in, and whether you want to make this a "Dark Angels as they should be" codex, or just a "get-you-by" codex to bring the current 'dex up to speed with the new SM one.

If you want to make it DA as they should be, I would make Deathwing Stubborn (including characters) and make Ravenwing expert riders. neither should be fearless.

Ianos
22-10-2008, 12:37
Nice work Hankyaku!

I think points wise the changes can be applied, but i would rather stick to fearless/stubborn instead of c.tactics.

However i still strongly disagree on handing out all the equipment that exists in the SM codex and especially the storm shields.

You will be essentially removing the only weakness the termies have while they still retain some firepower if they want to, they still DW assault and they are still troops, which is way over the top.

BigRob
22-10-2008, 13:20
Great layout but lots and lots of typos. Drop Pods, Techmarine, Master of Ravenwing sections are just a few of them. My advice is find a mate who likes warhammer and get him to proof read it before popping it up on somewhere like warseer.

Good minidex though, something similar will hopefully be appearing from GW one day to properly readdress the balance for DA players.

Razarael
22-10-2008, 13:25
That's a really good effort Hankyaku! Many kudos to you.

Just make sure to bring a list from the original DA 'dex and one from you minilist, as if your opponent asks you not to, you are 'honour bound' to use the standard DA codex. ;)

But really though, I think it's pretty good looking. It has been a while since I have seen the Dark Angel codex up close and personal, and I've yet to see C:SM, and what I remember from the Dark Angel codex, but it seems to be pretty much on par with what I would expect in a new DA dex.

I was thinking about 3++ Storm Shields being overpowered in a DA list, even if they are all throops, and I'm starting to think perhaps not. Since the Terminators are capped at 5, it doesn't seem nearly as unbalanced as it would be if a unit a 10 were to all be carrying them. Personally, I believe massed fire is a better way to take out terminators than AP1/2 guns anyhow.

It seems there will be a fine balance to have. Lose firepower for increased resilience (storm shield) or close combat killiness (Lightning Claws), and the option for only one Special weapon.

A couple things -

1) Do you get to chose which terminator gets the cyclone missile launcher? That is, could it be one of the Storm Shield fellows?

2) As it's written, you replace the Terminators weapons for a single lightning claw. That should be a pair, right?

3) I can understand WS6 on the special characters, in fact I would expect it. But would your average everyday librarian? That seems immensely high for a guy that has his heads in the books and wonderful psychic powers. I guess this point is really asking this: do the statlines of the HQ units match up now with the Space Marine codex? Or are they better or worse?

Like I said at the beginning. Kudos. :)

HsojVvad
22-10-2008, 13:31
Just remember some SM players are crying that they can't use Apo's now like DA. If DA can use them, so they are a bit different, then a bigger price hike is needed to keep fair.

Some people are complaining that the DA Libbies have an infinity range for thier Psychic Hood, so do DA still have infinity range? Shouldn't SM players have infinity range then? What about our Chaplians? Some SM players are crying that thiers is not as good as ours. Will ours be reduced like in C:SM? A few others as well.

What we should do instead of making the DA codex compatible with C:SM why not just rework and remake the DA codex instead? Make new war gear, new stats with proper point costs? I would love to take in a project like that. Then we can discuss amngost ourselves what should and shouldn't be.

You up for that?

Odin
22-10-2008, 13:42
Just remember some SM players are crying that they can't use Apo's now like DA. If DA can use them, so they are a bit different, then a bigger price hike is needed to keep fair.

Some people are complaining that the DA Libbies have an infinity range for thier Psychic Hood, so do DA still have infinity range? Shouldn't SM players have infinity range then? What about our Chaplians? Some SM players are crying that thiers is not as good as ours. Will ours be reduced like in C:SM? A few others as well.

Why would anyone want to use the old Apothecary rules? They were rubbish, which I why nobody ever took them. The new ones are far better, and cheaper.

And it does say in the rules that all wargear uses the rules in Codex:SM, so yes, we would have Psychic Hoods with limited range.

HsojVvad
22-10-2008, 14:06
I herd people crying that they can't include Apothercary in thier termie units. I don't have C:SM so I am going by what these people are saying.

Odin
22-10-2008, 14:13
Ah, I see. So this issue is not whether they have the old apothecary rules or the new ones, but that they can't take apothecaries in Terminator Squads. But that's because most Space Marine armies don't have Terminator command squads - their 1st companies are a mix of Terminators and power-armoured Veterans, unlike the DW who are a pure Terminator 1st company.

Darkangeldentist
22-10-2008, 14:35
Why would anyone want to use the old Apothecary rules? They were rubbish, which I why nobody ever took them. The new ones are far better, and cheaper.

And it does say in the rules that all wargear uses the rules in Codex:SM, so yes, we would have Psychic Hoods with limited range.

My dark angels love the old apothecary rules. Both my bikes and terminators find them invaluable. Remember that 'feel no pain' can't be used against AP 1 or 2 anymore. On a terminator unit it's the plasma that tends to hurt most. Also being able to help a nearby unit is a huge help. Particulary if the apothecary is standing next to a combat to help prevent casaulties damaging your potential to strike back.

To be able to protect friendly units and not just his own made the apothecary unit much more the focus of enemy fire (hence I often stuck a librarian in there as well) rather than now for marines where you can decide to only focus fire on them that will ignore 'feel no pain'. The new apothecaries can have a bigger effect but aren't any more powerful than the old ones.

(Sorry for hi-jacking the thread for that.)

GabrielEvander
22-10-2008, 14:39
all i want is the same options for my dread so i can have my mortis dread with two tl autocannons!!!!

Hankyaku
22-10-2008, 14:53
Whoa, lots of good comments.

First things first: this is just the first version, there are some mistakes in it, I'm just working on it and will hopefully post it today.
Now reactions in a row:
Odin:
>Dreadnaught is still the horribly overpriced DA one though.
Yes, I decreased the cost with 10 points in the next version.
>I would suggest that the Sword of Silence and the Raven Sword ought to be Relic Blades (with appropriate increase in cost).
That's a good idea. See what other people think...

>Techmarine is 215 points?!
Uh-oh... right, correcting it. :D

>The Scouts appear to have the reduced stats of Codex:SM, but at the higher cost from Codex: DA.
Yes, that's correct! Scouts are not common people at the DA, regardless of Sergeant Naaman's presence (I plan to bring him back, with other spec rules then Telion). I decreased only a little in their point costs, but they stay Elite!

>In general, I would say it would be sensible simply to use the unit entries from Codex:SM for the following units:
Frankly, I wouldn't do that. A very good thing is that the DA have a very strict military discipline and structure. Let's just keep it that way IMHO.

Belial and Sammael have a power which is like Marneus' Iron Will, but only works for their special unit. I would like to give them some special powers which ONLY affect their spec units, when they're in the army.

Ianos: you object against the SS again. I just repeat, I left it because of the unit cap. 5 ppl as troops... they can be shot easily down with mass fire, but now they are at least a challenge for a Carnifex. Up to now, a full squad wasn't enough to bring down such a beast, and make the comparison now. It's smells more like life. Provided, that they ALL have SS. Also don't forget, that they hit last. AND they have 2 attacks with that, thats 10 attacks from one troop. An Ork player with 24 models of Orks (with two power claw nobs) are still a match for the DW, still they have the same point costs.
A simple SM termie squad is still much stronger, and you don't even have to preserve them, as they are not troops, still, they can contest an objective!

BigRob: You're absolutely correct, but simply I can't find a better place then Warseer! See other mini-dex dev forums. They also face the same problem even when many people work on it.

Razarael: Thanks, you're also right.
1. It's not designated what termie shall have a Cyclone. Even one with TH+SS (it is as it was before).
2. Correct!
3. Libbies go back to WS5 (not many DA ppl. will use ordinary libbies anyway, maybe termie libbies).

HsojVvad: I left it at +30 points now, as it's a 6 point increase per model, but I'm not sticking to it. IMHO it's a expensive enough (up to now, it wasn't quite useful, maybe sparing one termie per game...), but if you have better suggestion, I'm open. I'd think it's reasonable around +40 points maybe.
And as I wrote ALL wargear is taken, plus, the chaplain entry is also taken! So 24" for psy hood here, and also the chaplain is weaker (did I miswrite that??)
But for Interrogator chaplains, I'd keep superiority, as this is something quite unique to DA.

So yes! I'm definitely up for the joint work of players! That was the reason why I posted it here, and I'm glad that you've raised the issue, and I didn't really have to suggest it explicitely. :)

About the Apos, Odin is exactly right. The DW is one of the DA specialities! And indeed they ARE the SM who have termie command squads, they have a whole chapter which really has a unique 1st and 10th chapter.
That's the reason why I'm pushing the issue to have a real termie Command squad. The termies come at a price for the DA and have limited cap, that's the cost paid for POSSIBLY being a troop squad, if you also sacrifice a HQ slot.

Darkangeldentist: The apo rules work ONCE per player turn. It means that during the game you can protect 6 models only, and it makes only a moral test unnecessary. DW squads have no use for that, they're Fearless anyway! And against plasma, you have 1 save to be ignored. That's not much...

GabrielEvander: Good suggerstion! The Mortis was a DA invention anyway!!! (See Forgeworld entries...)

Also, I don't intend to have Sammael on bike. He's a special "captain", who instead of bike, uses a Speeder. A second quite unique feature to DA.

So, thank you all folks, I'll fix my typos, and post it again (and I'll ask for the admins to remove the former version, if possible).

Odin
22-10-2008, 15:22
Odin:
>Dreadnaught is still the horribly overpriced DA one though.
Yes, I decreased the cost with 10 points in the next version.


That's still overpriced. Seriously, I can't see any reason not to simply lift the unit entry direct from the SM Codex.


>The Scouts appear to have the reduced stats of Codex:SM, but at the higher cost from Codex: DA.
Yes, that's correct! Scouts are not common people at the DA, regardless of Sergeant Naaman's presence (I plan to bring him back, with other spec rules then Telion). I decreased only a little in their point costs, but they stay Elite!

That really doesn't make any sense. We have just as many scouts as normal Codex chapters.
And from a balance point of view, why should DAs have Scouts that are not only more expensive, but also worse? (i.e. can't claim objectives)


>In general, I would say it would be sensible simply to use the unit entries from Codex:SM for the following units:
Frankly, I wouldn't do that. A very good thing is that the DA have a very strict military discipline and structure. Let's just keep it that way IMHO.

Our strict Chapter structure is pretty much identical to Codex chapters, with the expection of the 1st and 2nd Companies. There is no reason at all for vehicles to be different.

The main problem with the DA Codex by comparison with the new SM one is that DA battle companies are at a huge disadvantage (Tactical Squads 10 points cheaper, Razorbacks 10 points cheaper, Assault Squads 40 points cheaper, Dreadnaughts up to 20 points cheaper etc.). If your Codex doesn't address that, I'm not sure what he point is.



But for Interrogator chaplains, I'd keep superiority, as this is something quite unique to DA.

I agree that DA should be able to have Interrogator Chaplains, who should be better than normal ones, but the current stats are a bit OTT. I think it's sufficient for them to have +1W, +1A and +1I above a normal Chaplain. Ws6 should be reserved for Company Masters and special characters.

Darkangeldentist
22-10-2008, 15:25
I've now read the current PDF (I accept you're updating it but hope this is useful) and noticed a lot of errors and inconsistencies. Some have already been mentioned.

Firstly you've dropped Azrael's attacks and wounds, now that in itself isn't a huge deal (although I don't like it) but you kept his points up and the WS buff just doesn't match the loss of an attack. Certainly not missing a wound!

Belial still doesn't have an iron halo yet his points did go up. (WS 6 is not worth 20pts.) I accept he does a bit more in terms of rules now but now it just makes the storm shield by far the best choice. Lots of spelling mistakes (bannder etc...) and I really don't like the combat tactics for deathwing rule. The deathwing are famous for never taking a step back in the face of the enemy. It just doesn't work for me.

Sammael appears to upgrade a Deathwing squad to have bikers?! More spelling errors I'm afraid. Combat tactics does make sense here but why would Ravenwing be braver when the boss isn't looking?

Ezekiel shouldn't be WS 6, Tigurius is a chief librarian and only have a basic librarians stats. Dark angel librarians have never been noted for being exceptional in combat.

By and large you've changed unit wargear to match their counterparts in the marine book but not the options themselves. (Command squad with apothecary is still 10pts more than regular marine ones for instance.) Company champion is way overcosted if the combat shield is now a 6+ invulnerable save. (Was too much to start with but in you book it yet another step too far.) Spelling on apothecary again.

Company veterans; If we are to use the wargear rules from codex space marines then why keep to Dark angel points (in particular storm shields) and you've kept the sergeant label with no profile thus bringing back the whole argument about whether he can use any of the options. (Any veteran may...)

Our scouts still cost more and don't have as many rules? New ones scout as well. We are also paying more points for the heavy weapons.

Assault squad have a bunch of issues for me. One you've left the points cost as it stands, big gripe with the new codex is the cost discrepancy. For some reason the sergeant can swap his bolter as well?

The attack bike has lost a wound! Strictly following your wording the attached speeder can scout now. (Intentional or oversight?)

With the support squadron you kept the points the same. If we're using the new typhoon stats it's just as well we can only get one per squadron. Also there is mention of Ravenwing bikers?:eyebrows:

That's most of the mistakes and questionables I saw. Sorry to sound so pedantic.

Nice work though.

Odin
22-10-2008, 19:46
Odin: The dread price was lowered, and Venerable upgrade does not cost that much, as SM (still a basic dread is +10 points), mortis option is available.

The problem is the points costs are all over the place now. A DA venerable Dread would be 20 points cheaper than a SM one, but a basic DA dread with Multimelta would be 10 points more expensive. There is no real reason for this in fluff or game balance.

Seriously, the sensible thing to do is surely to lift the Venerable Dreadnaught and Dreadnaught entries direct from the SM Codex.


Scouts - I have no idea why they were put to elite. A possible explanation is that they don't bring them into fight so often, they focus more on their training.
I see your point here, but still I'm not sure what to think of it. It' mostly due to gaming reasons.

They were put in Elite because GW wanted Tactical Squads to be the focus of marine armies. At the time of the DA Codex, that is almost certainly what they intended to do with the SM Codex as well. But they came up with a better idea - make Tactical Squads more useful! I have no doubt that when the next DA Codex is released, Scouts will be back in Core.

Even if you decide to keep them in Elite, they should be the same cost as SM ones. It would be daft to make DA Scouts more expensive when they are clearly inferior (can't take objectives, no Combat Tactics, no Hellfire shells, no Camo-Cloaks).


The points costs you used are being worked on. I didn't add so many point decrease, since we can filed RW and DW as troops (meaning that attack bikes are a separate unit in the chart resulting in the max of 18 scoring units using CSquad rule)


As I said, I just don't want to copy SM entries. I also don't want to decrease point costs to drastically so that the advantage of DW and RW wouldn't mean that this is about powergaming.


Well, I can't field DW or RW as troops, because I don't have Belial or Sammael.

And don't forget, the SM Codex allows you to have Scouts and Bikes as troops (and Sternguard as Scoring units), and the bikes are much cheaper, so you can actually afford to take more (which is crucial when it comes to objectives). If SM can have an army with 15 Scoring Units (3 Sternguard, 6 combat squadded Bike Squads), is than really less powerful than a DA army with 18 Scoring Units?


The Interrogator-Chaplain is just as different, as you wrote. However I retained the WS6, as he IS special among SM. No other chapters have such Chaplains.

The problem is, that makes him much, much better than Company Masters, and I don't think that's right. He should be better than a normal Chaplain, but not so good that he becomes a no-brainer option.

Fellblade
22-10-2008, 20:53
I gave up reading that doc by the time I got to the troops section... far too many errors. Sammal creating terminator bikers? What is "Tactical Armor" on the tac squads? How is it different than power armor? Why does the Sergent have a power sword when you're talking about a techmarine? Why can't terminators take a pair of lightning claws? There were just too many mistakes for me to finish reading it and I didn't even list all the ones I saw just from a glace.

Darkangeldentist
22-10-2008, 21:18
Well reading the new document I see you've completely messed up the armour saves. You've given Azrael, Ezekiel and Belial 3+ saves. Also you've given most of our marines 4+ saves. Tactical, assault and devastators.

The land speeders now have the same armour as Sammael's speeder. Copy paste error I assume. You've made Sammael's speeder BS 4 by the way.

The wording you've used isn't totally clear about your intention for the Terminator/Biker leader special rule. The way I read it (first time and this time) seems like it replaced fearless. Instead of using combat tactics as a reference it would be easier to say that Deathwing/Ravenwing may choose to fail any Ld test if Belial or Sammael is on the table despite being fearless. Same effect but I think this would be clearer. (I still don't like it though.)

Command squad entry does not specify any conditions for how to purchase them. Spelling of narthecium is still wrong.

Our servitors now have two attack basic. Nice but not intended I imagine.

Techmarine seems to have too many items listed in his equipement. Powerfist (sergeant has a power sword) isn't meant to be there I expect. Also the techmarine now has both a pistol and bolter, plus of course the power weapon.

As to the scouts as elites thing. I agree it was probably to help boost the presence of Tactical marines as the core of most armies. However I believe another factor was the Deathwing and Ravenwing. These can become troops with the right HQ and give Dark angels three different units they can use as troops. Scouts on top might well have been seen as a bit too much versatility.

Hankyaku
22-10-2008, 21:27
Uh-oh, errors are there plenty...
Right, they're mostly copy paste errors, since I concentrated mostly on the options to be okay...

About the scout thing: there is a very good reason why they stay in elite: youcan't find scouts in any of the companies BUT the 10th. Which means, that scouts aren't that common in DA armies. Thus they're okay as elite.

HOWEVER I plan to make a spec char like Sammael/Belial to give scouts a boost, and make them as troops.

And thanks for the comment I'll rewrite the "Leader" spec rules.
Be back with the newer version soon. Can you please tell me which admin I'll have to search to remove my attached files? Or is it possible to have a "sticky" attachment you can access at the first page?

Hankyaku
22-10-2008, 21:41
Thank you for the comments, and error lists.
Corrected version is attached.

The scouts are elite, because you may find them only in the 10th Company. However I'm planning on creating a spec char to field the scouts as troops as well (practically to play with the 10th company).

GabrielEvander
22-10-2008, 21:50
Sgt Naaman woot

Odin
22-10-2008, 22:40
Thank you for the comments, and error lists.
Corrected version is attached.

The scouts are elite, because you may find them only in the 10th Company, so they're following different organization rules than SM. However I'm planning on creating a spec char to field the scouts as troops as well (practically to play with the 10th company).

Er... Scouts are only in the 10th Company of Codex chapters as well.

HsojVvad
23-10-2008, 00:28
Here is an idea. I remember reading something about the Scout leader of the squad (can't remember the name) is suppose to be like a Strong SM. Maybe his BS can be 6 or 7 since nobody has used this rule yet. He would be strong since it's his duty and job to train the Scouts to become SM. I think they should be Elites but bring back the old rules, that if Scouts break down into combat squads they count as scoring units. I could never understand why this rule was taken away. Yes it should be 50% or more to be considered scoring since making it last man scoring would be too much.

What other old characters would we like to bring back?

Also what about "Hunt the Fallen" rule? I don't know how the old one worked, but maybe something like on a die roll of 3+ there can be anthour turn for the DA if the game was about to end.

Maybe even throw in a rule, how the enemy can have X number of Fallen minitures. This way when your opponent puts him in play, All DA will have to go after that mini, no and's if's or but's. This way if some DA taticals were staying at an objective, they would have to leave the objective to go after the Fallen (witch would count as an objective point if captured. How captured would work, don't know we can work on it.)

GabrielEvander
23-10-2008, 00:47
Bring back Vet Sgt Naaman instead of sgt smurf scout

and Asmodai and the blades of reason :D

and give the watcher an attack just for funns

HsojVvad
23-10-2008, 01:13
Bring back Vet Sgt Naaman instead of sgt smurf scout

and Asmodai and the blades of reason :D

and give the watcher an attack just for funns

who are these people? I am new to DA so I don't know of them. I herd of Asmodai from other posts but don't know who or what he does.

Maybe we can give a discreption of Individual Charaters for people like me who just got into DA with the current codex and not know anything else that was released before.

Occulto
23-10-2008, 01:27
who are these people? I am new to DA so I don't know of them. I herd of Asmodai from other posts but don't know who or what he does.

Maybe we can give a discreption of Individual Charaters for people like me who just got into DA with the current codex and not know anything else that was released before.

Asmodai:

Asmodai is the Master Interrogator-Chaplain of the Dark Angels and rumored to be the best in their history.

In his long career, he has only been able to make 2 members of The Fallen repent. But not many can resist his evil craft, and it is said that his enemies would rather die than fall into his hands, as he is rumoured to be able to keep a victim alive for weeks on end while undergoing horrific torture. As with all Interrogator-Chaplains, he carries a weapon known as the Blades of Reason, a device used to inflict torment.

Vet Sgt Naaman:

Naaman was a Dark Angels Sergeant and special character until 4th Edition when his stats were removed from the codex and only a short passage about his life remains.

He fought the Orks on Piscina IV and seemed to be part of the initial scouting force. He was the only one to survive the counter-attack of Nazdreg but later managed to lead a team of Scouts through the Ork lines and sentries to discover and relay information about the tellyporta systems used by Nazdreg to such deadly effect. He then called in the Deathwing to attack and destroy the site. He fought many counter-attacks to prevent reinforcements from overrunning the site but he was eventually killed by an exploding Ork Dreadnought. His name was added to the Book of Honour for the Dark Angels.

MadDoc
23-10-2008, 01:54
Asmodai:

Asmodai is the Master Interrogator-Chaplain of the Dark Angels and rumored to be the best in their history.

No, the Master of Chaplains is Grand Master Sapphon, Finder of Secrets, Asmodai is the best known/most infamous (take your pick) current Interrogator-Chaplain, also Master Molochia (sp? :confused:) is the most successful Interrogator-Chaplain, with almost a dozen black pearls on his Rozarius.


In his long career, he has only been able to make 2 members of The Fallen repent. But not many can resist his evil craft, and it is said that his enemies would rather die than fall into his hands, as he is rumoured to be able to keep a victim alive for weeks on end while undergoing horrific torture. As with all Interrogator-Chaplains, he carries a weapon known as the Blades of Reason, a device used to inflict torment.

The Blades of Reason are not a weapon, they're a tool of torture, they're a small knife/blade laced with neuro-fibres that inflict agony on their victims through even the slightest cut.


Vet Sgt Naaman:

Naaman was a Dark Angels Sergeant and special character until 4th Edition when his stats were removed from the codex and only a short passage about his life remains.

He fought the Orks on Piscina IV and seemed to be part of the initial scouting force. He was the only one to survive the counter-attack of Nazdreg but later managed to lead a team of Scouts through the Ork lines and sentries to discover and relay information about the tellyporta systems used by Nazdreg to such deadly effect. He then called in the Deathwing to attack and destroy the site. He fought many counter-attacks to prevent reinforcements from overrunning the site but he was eventually killed by an exploding Ork Dreadnought. His name was added to the Book of Honour for the Dark Angels.

Spot on.

@GabrielEvander - Watchers should not ever have an attack. They're description is quite clear that they don't attack and cannot be harmed. Giving them an attack is just plain wrong on so many levels...

Occulto
23-10-2008, 05:06
No, the Master of Chaplains is Grand Master Sapphon, Finder of Secrets, Asmodai is the best known/most infamous (take your pick) current Interrogator-Chaplain, also Master Molochia (sp? :confused:) is the most successful Interrogator-Chaplain, with almost a dozen black pearls on his Rozarius.



The Blades of Reason are not a weapon, they're a tool of torture, they're a small knife/blade laced with neuro-fibres that inflict agony on their victims through even the slightest cut.

*shrugs*

Simple cut 'n' paste from the 40K Lexicanum. Next time I'll make sure to copy it all out by hand from my Angels of Death. :rolleyes:

Ianos
23-10-2008, 09:58
Ianos: you object against the SS again. I just repeat, I left it because of the unit cap. 5 ppl as troops... they can be shot easily down with mass fire, but now they are at least a challenge for a Carnifex. Up to now, a full squad wasn't enough to bring down such a beast, and make the comparison now. It's smells more like life. Provided, that they ALL have SS. Also don't forget, that they hit last. AND they have 2 attacks with that, thats 10 attacks from one troop. An Ork player with 24 models of Orks (with two power claw nobs) are still a match for the DW, still they have the same point costs.
A simple SM termie squad is still much stronger, and you don't even have to preserve them, as they are not troops, still, they can contest an objective!



Seriously again think of the following:

The MEQ killing Eldar have no real answer for them, a 10 girl banshee squad with doom will barely kill half of them on charge, so are avengers with doom and storm, same for a dang full spear squad with a fully kitted out Autarch! We are talking disproportionate amounts of points for units that where either designed to combat heavy infantry or even units with massive firepower.
You also can always have 30 termies, and they have the same or better combat effectiveness since they can load up with some ranged weapons too. 5 man cap? That's no answer seriously. Yeah there are some units in the game that can take them down, just like many other hard stuff out there (monoliths can be taken out by marking railguns for example) but they will be nigh impervious to all the stuff that is supposed to kill termies. Now that maybe fine for a unit that can only do cc and can only CONTEST but it is not for a unit that can GET the objective when ONE more objective can mean a massacre in 5th. Right on top of that, half of them rounded UP (which can mean 2/3 with one in a raider/reserve for example) show up in your face and even shoot you some.

Hankyaku
23-10-2008, 10:25
Er... Scouts are only in the 10th Company of Codex chapters as well.

Absolutely correct, sorry, it's my bad!
Then yeah, there's really no explanation why scouts are Elite at DA...
Either way, somehow I like having them as elite, I don't know. They're something special to me, not the front line guys.
What really hit the scout thing is the sniper rifle variant IMHO. The CCW style for me is like "let the greenies run forward, and die". However in the whole 40K universe, the funniest "scouts" are the Wolf scouts of course. Needless to say, they're not scouts, but commandos. :D

So, back to the mini-dex.

As far as I could find, there are two approaches on this thread regarding how DA shall be renewed.
One is not messing too much with structure, only some minor point adjustments and the wargear/equipment harmonization.
The other one is "take all similar entries from C: SM".

The former one is manifested in the mini-dex I created. I 'm not for the second option personally, but I really am open to create a "Dark Angels Supplement" to C: SM which includes the spec characters, and only the DW/RW changes, and says that "use C: SM with the following additions".

BTW: sorry for the many mistakes in the mini-dex, most of them have been corrected. Still when you find something, please let me now. Such is the case when there's only one man available for the work. I unfortunately had only one free night to do this typing work, and had been concentrating on getting the options right (I mostly succeeded). But now also the stats are okay, so we can go on in further development.

Characters:
Sergeant Naaman: Sergeant Naaman was a very interesting character back in 3rd, as you could field him only UP TO 750 points, which in the first run is funny, but as a second tought it's a nonsense concerning gameplay. So I plan to make him available anyway, and give him an ability that gives you scouts in troops, and give hime some special gadget and some ability to upgrade scouts somehow. I want him mostly as a SNIPER, not as Telion is in the new ed. He was a CCW specialist in the 3rd ed, so I'm a bit confused about him. Or maybe we should introduce a new scout spec char as a sniper? Dunno. Still Naaman was an upgrade char to a scout squad by the way, just as Chronus is to a tank nowadays, so it's also a good idea to keep it that way.

Asmodai: he's not just a simple chaplain. He had special rules regarding the Victory points, which is useless nowadays. So frankly I'm just upt to find something new for him. He was a grand torturer, that's for sure. So it'd be reasonable to think that for example he got some info before the battle, and therefore some redeployment powers may be fitting. Redeploy one unit for yourself if you get first turn, and on the other hand, add +1 to your Seize initiative rolls, or something like that. He was also fearful, so the -1 to LD to the enemy in 12" to him is reasonable.

Hunt the fallen: that was an interesting rule, and quite a drawback. It actually made DA little more than DC... You had to assault the enemy char if it was in range, and he was the fallen. Also, there was a victory point issue, which is not a good idea now. :) The rule that have another turn for DA only, is unfair in my opinion, it would give DA a very big strategical advantage. I'm thinking on this one yet.

Also Ezekiel had a very sweet power, weaken resolve. It's a morale check on 3D6, and works in 12" close to him. Maybe we should swap mind worm to this. It's something similar to mind worm, however it only affects the enemy for one turn, so it's more like a strategical power, than a "power-power", with small chance to work, like mind worm is.

So what I really agree on is to bring the spec chars back. I don't want them to be power chars, I want them to be flavour chars!

Fixer
23-10-2008, 10:31
I would personally change the Cyclone missile launchers so they cannot be used on assault terminator setups. I can just see the mini scoring terminator units with two move and shoot missile launchers with a 2+/3++. Putting it on a normal terminator with a 5+ inv means that even in the 3+ thunderhammer unit, overwhelming the squad with plasma fire will pick it out a bit easier.

As for Eldar with Meq killing? You do have some good answers for taking down Terminators. Firstly, for cost they are less resilient at taking fire from normal weapons. 40 points for a terminator and he'll take 50% of the failed armor saves a tactical marine would get, at 260% of the price. Additionally you have increased variance on those armor saves so a string of extremely bad luck will butcher them.

Also, Harlequins still make good terminator slayers. Each terminator will only be causing 0.55 casualties per model against harlequins in combat. Overwhelmed with attacks and numbers from a charge the termie squad is going to get beaten.

and don't forget blade-storm + doom or scatterlaser spam :)

Hankyaku
23-10-2008, 10:32
Seriously again think of the following:

The MEQ killing Eldar have no real answer for them, a 10 girl banshee squad with doom will barely kill half of them on charge, so are avengers with doom and storm, same for a dang full spear squad with a fully kitted out Autarch! We are talking disproportionate amounts of points for units that where either
And it all works IF you give SS to each termie saying goodbye to one attack.

And with eldar, why would you just try to CC them instead of shooting them to pieces? Give them a hell lot of scatter laser... or even the small pistols... or give them witch blades with warlocks... you can get as many hits on them, they won't be able to do a thing. Still I refer to the jetbike riding warlocks with 3+/4+(I). You can field 10 of them, attack around 30, hit around half, and have like 2 wounds unsaved with 2+!!!
Just try to imagine, that having 30 models as all of your troop choices is a limitation!

BTW: I have goooooood and loooooooong experience with the jetbike warlock stuff I'm always referring to. I could do NOTHING with them. They could easily take away my objectives, and make the troops behind just creep up to them easily! The only counter to them was my terminators, because of high attack count (2LC), and good wound rates, and power weapons. But if you take a look at costs, that eldar unit ALWAYS got it's points back, and plenty more.
So I also could give such an example with eldar. PLUS they didn't even need to be troops to secure objectives (there were the troops behind them in 4+ cover, and in numbers, as they're eldar!).
You can cope with a termie squad like this, and even 6 of them. Just choose the right tools, what you in fact HAVE in your army (and remember, we're talking about 1500 points for 30 minis here, where you have plenty-plenty more for this point cost, extra shots, extra attacks).

Hankyaku
23-10-2008, 10:35
Fixer, you don't! The DA can field only 5 man termie squads, with only one heavy weapon per squad. So at an assault termies squad, thats 2 shots of S8 per turn. At 6 squads, it's 12 shots, to 6 targets.

Odin
23-10-2008, 11:21
Absolutely correct, sorry, it's my bad!
Then yeah, there's really no explanation why scouts are Elite at DA...
Either way, somehow I like having them as elite, I don't know. They're something special to me, not the front line guys.
What really hit the scout thing is the sniper rifle variant IMHO. The CCW style for me is like "let the greenies run forward, and die". However in the whole 40K universe, the funniest "scouts" are the Wolf scouts of course. Needless to say, they're not scouts, but commandos. :D


I think it really boils down to this:

If Scouts (a) have only Ws and Bs 3, (b) take up an Elites slot and (c) can't claim objectives, nobody will ever take them.

The "units that break down into combat squads count as scoring" rule from the DA Codex is clearly a rule that was intended to work with 4th edition, not 5th. In it's current form, it has got to go.

However, it might be reasonable for a Scout Squad to have a special rule that makes them scoring (regardless of whether they split into combat squads or not), a bit like Sternguard under Pedro Kantor. It might be enough to make Ws3, Bs3 Elite scouts worth taking, but only just.

Ianos
23-10-2008, 13:26
And it all works IF you give SS to each termie saying goodbye to one attack.

And with eldar, why would you just try to CC them instead of shooting them to pieces? Give them a hell lot of scatter laser...

Read my post, i also included avengers with doomseer and showed the math. The only other decent choices is guided walkers which again cost a lot over the termie squad, are heavy support and will barely make their points back if someone sneezes at them or deep strikes in the Eldar lines, or has LR or....



or even the small pistols... or give them witch blades with warlocks... you can get as many hits on them, they won't be able to do a thing. Still I refer to the jetbike riding warlocks with 3+/4+(I). You can field 10 of them, attack around 30, hit around half, and have like 2 wounds unsaved with 2+!!!
Just try to imagine, that having 30 models as all of your troop choices is a limitation!

Oh yes, paying 600-700 HQ points with the requirement to get past perils, hoods, null fields etc to as YOU point out kill 2 termies?:wtf::wtf::wtf: huh?
I feel i am in the kingdom of insanity when i read stuff like that man! seriously.


BTW: I have goooooood and loooooooong experience with the jetbike warlock stuff I'm always referring to. I could do NOTHING with them. They could easily take away my objectives, and make the troops behind just creep up to them easily! The only counter to them was my terminators, because of high attack count (2LC), and good wound rates, and power weapons. But if you take a look at costs, that eldar unit ALWAYS got it's points back, and plenty more.

You just said that i need to use at least 1/3 of my army and my best HQ choice to simply combat one of your troops, how in the world does that fit with what you write here? BTW i play Eldar and was just about to start some marine force, most likely DAs (that's why i am in the thread), a few posts later i am again sick of the childish majority and pretty much disregarding the idea.



So I also could give such an example with eldar. PLUS they didn't even need to be troops to secure objectives (there were the troops behind them in 4+ cover, and in numbers, as they're eldar!).


Oh, yeah right the infamous Eldar horde, yah kiddin?


You can cope with a termie squad like this, and even 6 of them. Just choose the right tools, what you in fact HAVE in your army (and remember, we're talking about 1500 points for 30 minis here, where you have plenty-plenty more for this point cost, extra shots, extra attacks).

We are talking using double the points at best for each and every one of those TROOP objective grabbing, deep striking, thunder hammer wielding units, which have double the resilence of a marine vs normal weapons and double the terminator resilience vs. pw/low ap weapons, DOUBLE.

You know what, you will not be convinced, you simply do not want to, i did not disagree with your codex, i am just paying attention to something that IS too much and there is a reason it is not fieldable, but hey it's your fantasy. However, i seriously hope GW never becomes THAT stupid as to adopt such a rule.

Ianos
23-10-2008, 13:36
I would personally change the Cyclone missile launchers so they cannot be used on assault terminator setups. I can just see the mini scoring terminator units with two move and shoot missile launchers with a 2+/3++. Putting it on a normal terminator with a 5+ inv means that even in the 3+ thunderhammer unit, overwhelming the squad with plasma fire will pick it out a bit easier.

Correct, or simply make SS shields availble to only elites or a single belial troop.


As for Eldar with Meq killing? You do have some good answers for taking down Terminators. Firstly, for cost they are less resilient at taking fire from normal weapons. 40 points for a terminator and he'll take 50% of the failed armor saves a tactical marine would get, at 260% of the price. Additionally you have increased variance on those armor saves so a string of extremely bad luck will butcher them.

Actually, if want to take everything into account you are effectively paying the same points for formed up tactical. So simply put termies are exactly as tough as 10 marines without the effects of cc. resolution really hurting them since they loose 2 guys instead of 4 for example. At the same time, true MEQ killing choices will do virtually nothing to them as they are again 2 times more resilient than termies in both shooting and cc.


Also, Harlequins still make good terminator slayers. Each terminator will only be causing 0.55 casualties per model against harlequins in combat. Overwhelmed with attacks and numbers from a charge the termie squad is going to get beaten.

and don't forget blade-storm + doom or scatterlaser spam :)

No i do not forget all those but what i am saying here is that the best choices for the MEQ killer king are far from cost effective and we are talking about threats that in 5th win massacres.

Odin
23-10-2008, 14:13
I think there would certainly need to be some playtesting, as I can see how 3+/3+ storm shields as troops could be seriously scary. I think you are overstating it slightly though. A Terminator Squad is not very mobile, so the very mobile Eldar army should be able to just avoid combat and slowly wear them down. If the DW are all armed with TH&SS, they won't have the long-range firepower to be able to threaten your Eldar at long-range.

It could pose GW a bit of a problem for the next edition of the DA Codex, as they will certainly get the new Storm Shields, and I'm sure they won't abandon the idea of DW as Core.

Some serious playtesting is definitely required though.

Hankyaku
23-10-2008, 15:52
Odin: that's the idea.

Ianos:The eldar don't really even need to be afraid of a like of an army. Shot them to hell. Ah, and besides: the choice I've been talking about is around the same cost of termies. Warlock unit with jetbikes. 5 minis, 5*45 points, 3+/4+ always wound on 2+, and have TL shuriken catapult, so you could shoot 10 times (7,5 hitting, 3,25 wounding, and that's a dead termie if the player has bad luck), making 15 attacks, hitting 7 times, wounding 6 times, and that's one termie dead again. Say, that's the only dead. They hit you back, get 7 wounds, and yes, you'll get 3-4 dead _unless_ you have fortune at your unit. If you managed to cast it, you have 2 dead...
Sorry, but that's nearly an equal (okay, I cheated, I did count in the shots to the termies as well)... and this works ONLY if the termie squad got no shots before... which against eldar is pretty unlikely. But to see the exact required number of a Warlock unit on jetbikes so termies won't stand a chance... umm.. it's 15 of them to wipe them out in the first round of combat without anybody hitting you back... That is in total 675. But.. how weird is that... in one of your turns, you wiped out an entire terminator squad... in the next turn you do it with another one.... So you may end up in your precious little 675 point squad giving hell to 1000 points without the ability to hit back. And that's what statistics says. I don't know the eldar in this depth to be frank, si I don't know what exact units can you field, but whan I played against eldar, I was up an army like this, plus plenty of troops, plus an avatar, plus some jetbikes from points left.

The good answer against the termies with SS: DON'T GO CCING WITH THEM! You can easily do it in eldar. Charge in the last turn, if you have no other choice... but until then... And remember it's enough, if you get ONE objective and deny the rest from your opponent.

Ianos, my problem is that you're always saying why you CAN'T win against an army of DW. I could also give an example of how I'd use unfit units against an Avatar, for example. It just does not make sense.
And why are we talking about how eldar can beat the toughest terminators in the imperium IN CLOSE COMBAT? They're simply not meant to! They're meant to shoot them to pieces, with getting back weapons fire from 6 heavy weapons.

New SS for one squad, old for the rest? In the ruling point, please be serious, such as this simply does not work especially in the case of an universal equipment.

And one more: you can't convince me without any playtesting. In your reasons I really see short term, one turn, one-on-one thinking. That's why I don't get convinced by such reasons (AND BECAUSE I'VE BEEN BEATEN TO DEATH BY ELDAR, WHEN I FIELDED DW, AND A 3+SS WOULDN'TVE MATTERED EVEN A BIT - oh it would... I'd have had less attacks to retaliate...).

Hankyaku
23-10-2008, 15:59
Ah Odin sorry, in this eldar "fever" I completely forgot about the Scout thing: you're correct, that was what I intended to do. I'm in trouble with Naaman's point costs though, and the spec abilities. I'd give him a camo cloak, and a stuffed up sniper rifle, maybe something Vindicare gives. That's one way, and maybe it'd be another version to make him a CC guy, and then make Land Speeder Storm 0-1, with the option of outflanking. That's just a weird idea I thought may sound funny.

BTW: I found some more Typos (Land Speeders, some Lds) in the mini-dex, and corrected it. It's refreshed in the first post, and the one more post here which contains one, it's also refreshed.

Ianos
24-10-2008, 09:40
Odin: that's the idea.

Ianos:The eldar don't really even need to be afraid of a like of an army. Shot them to hell. Ah, and besides: the choice I've been talking about is around the same cost of termies. Warlock unit with jetbikes. 5 minis, 5*45 points, 3+/4+ always wound on 2+, and have TL shuriken catapult, so you could shoot 10 times (7,5 hitting, 3,25 wounding, and that's a dead termie if the player has bad luck), making 15 attacks, hitting 7 times, wounding 6 times, and that's one termie dead again. Say, that's the only dead. They hit you back, get 7 wounds, and yes, you'll get 3-4 dead _unless_ you have fortune at your unit. If you managed to cast it, you have 2 dead...

They still won't make it as you say right here! 1.6 termies with shoot and assault vs. 3-4 dead warlocks in assault only. If i add fortune we up it at least 100 points and the restrictions i said. Sorry but you are manipulating language and generating confusion here.




Sorry, but that's nearly an equal (okay, I cheated, I did count in the shots to the termies as well)... and this works ONLY if the termie squad got no shots before... which against eldar is pretty unlikely. But to see the exact required number of a Warlock unit on jetbikes so termies won't stand a chance... umm.. it's 15 of them to wipe them out in the first round of combat without anybody hitting you back... That is in total 675. But.. how weird is that... in one of your turns, you wiped out an entire terminator squad... in the next turn you do it with another one.... So you may end up in your precious little 675 point squad giving hell to 1000 points without the ability to hit back. And that's what statistics says. I don't know the eldar in this depth to be frank, si I don't know what exact units can you field, but whan I played against eldar, I was up an army like this, plus plenty of troops, plus an avatar, plus some jetbikes from points left.

a. you cheated on more than just the shooting.
b. 675 points of about anything should kill almost anything in the game, that's no answer, it's like me saying to you, "don't worry, 2000 points of marines can kill that council in one go" (which is less anyhow, but you get the picture)
c. when i play vs. dark angels the only reason i deal with them is banshees and dragons, so trust me 3+inv is over the board.




The good answer against the termies with SS: DON'T GO CCING WITH THEM! You can easily do it in eldar. Charge in the last turn, if you have no other choice... but until then... And remember it's enough, if you get ONE objective and deny the rest from your opponent.

Don't know if you noticed but not all Eldar armies are mech and not all armies have the Eldar mobility. The reason i mention Eldar is not because I play them but because i want to demonstrate how nuts 2+/3+ termies are.


Ianos, my problem is that you're always saying why you CAN'T win against an army of DW. I could also give an example of how I'd use unfit units against an Avatar, for example. It just does not make sense.
And why are we talking about how eldar can beat the toughest terminators in the imperium IN CLOSE COMBAT? They're simply not meant to! They're meant to shoot them to pieces, with getting back weapons fire from 6 heavy weapons.

Reapers = .72 kills to a max of 1ish with exarch
Doom storming avengers= 2.22
Fire Dragons= 1.66
Spiders with exarch= 1.35

So i only need almost ALL the above and MAXED OUT to kill just ONE 5 man assault terminator squad... Guess i was wrong after all... NOT!:mad:


New SS for one squad, old for the rest? In the ruling point, please be serious, such as this simply does not work especially in the case of an universal equipment.

BALANCE>WANTS+FLUFF, you be serious.


And one more: you can't convince me without any playtesting. In your reasons I really see short term, one turn, one-on-one thinking. That's why I don't get convinced by such reasons (AND BECAUSE I'VE BEEN BEATEN TO DEATH BY ELDAR, WHEN I FIELDED DW, AND A 3+SS WOULDN'TVE MATTERED EVEN A BIT - oh it would... I'd have had less attacks to retaliate...).

Eldar are just a way to express the outrageous nature of such a unit if you haven't realised. Wyches barely deal scratch them, Archon with Drazzie and incubi might get to kill them but they are like double the points and it can be iffy, Hive tyrants pick of one guy and then die, fexes won't do much more, you need 10 unscathed stealers with upgrades ti kill like 3 without counting wound allocation for variant equipment. In fact the only anti-unit i manage to see right now is pariahs which is not exactly very common or usable or that numerous.

It simply is outrageous no matter how you put it...

Odin
24-10-2008, 10:45
They still won't make it as you say right here! 1.6 termies with shoot and assault vs. 3-4 dead warlocks in assault only. If i add fortune we up it at least 100 points and the restrictions i said. Sorry but you are manipulating language and generating confusion here.


As indeed are you. Because the fact is that the warlocks can avoid combat with the DW, until shooting has worn them down enough for combat to be worthwhile.



Reapers = .72 kills to a max of 1ish with exarch
Doom storming avengers= 2.22
Fire Dragons= 1.66
Spiders with exarch= 1.35

So i only need almost ALL the above and MAXED OUT to kill just ONE 5 man assault terminator squad...



...in one turn. You have 5-7 turns in the game. It's quite simple - focus your attacks on one unit at a time, wipe them out, then move on to the next one. If the entire DW army is equipped with TH&SS (and the occasional Cyclone), they can't really harm you unless they get into combat. Easy enough for a half-decent general to make it very difficult for them to see combat.

Out-maneuvre, wear them down, and assault when a squad is down to 2 terminators. Rinse and repeat.

Hankyaku
24-10-2008, 23:27
Odin: That'd have been my answer to the problem Ianos raised - again.

But as a Dark Angel, I'm also stubborn, so I'll try to continue explaining this to Ianos:
Let's imagine 1500 points. (I'm not very good at eldar, so I could construct a list like this only.)
DW: HQ: Belial 130 points Troops: 4*5 Termies, SS+TH, 4*Cyclones, 1*Land Raider Crusader 1*Rw squadron (sorry, I had to go multiwing, because you simply CAN'T field else from 1500 points...)

Eldar: HQ: Farseer on Bike with Fortune and Mind War, and the 3D6 thing. 7 Warlock on Jetbike, with one Giving Enhance (so that my calculations in the last post wouldn't work at all...), Troops: 2x5 Guardian on Jetbike firing Shuriken Cannons, 4x12 Guardian Defenders, 2 Bright Lance, 2 Star Cannon (or Scatter laser would be better?), Heavy: 2x Wraithlord with flamers, and 2*BL+2*Scatter Laser.

This way you have to deal with 2 units on 1st turn of the DW brought down by the bikes. 3rd sitting in LR. If you split your forces well enough, then you can actually end up having the DW aim at absolutely unimportant units (Wraithlords for example), while you can open the LR, and save the jetbikes in the meantime. The bikes are to be taken care of, (Star cannons) and you're free to roam then. With the LR opened, you have 4 sitting ducks at the field. Even better if you get first turn! You can open the LR with the lances (no smoke), and you can get rid of bikers. Then DW has problems with teleporting, and you'll have the advantage of mobility. Wraithlords, and the christmas tree warlock unit can be thrown away, as the don't score. So you practically need to take care of those units which are heading your way, and consider, that the DW player has to hold his/her own objective(s) as well.
As you seen with mass shots from only one unit of warlocks, you can decimate the numbers of DW. Then one less unit... then one more less... yes, you may end up losing squads in the process, but that's how game goes. If you're unlucky (or don't play this army well), you may use your guardian jetbike units as well, and don't forget about those little footsloggers, you may use them for something.. and even the Wraithlords can squeeze a squad of termies in conjunction with some units else. I just can see if an termie squad gets in 12" of your troops... 24 shots, 6 wounds, one dead (plus heavy wpn). If secured well, or used as an assault supplement, that one may make the difference.

So I'd gladly play against an army like that, maybe I'd roll better, than I did before. Maybe I could even win, if I can force my enemy to any of the corners, and manage to rush his troops, maybe even the warlock unit. Who knows?

Hankyaku
24-10-2008, 23:51
So, as many people argued with making a minidex instead of just making the Spec chars to C: SM. I attached a version of the spec characters.

It's like 3rd ed is back. I don't know, I just have a day like this. :D
Azrael, Belial, Sammael, Ezekiel, Asmodai, and Naaman is included. I hope you'll enjoy. I leveled up Azrael to match a grand master. He gives the stubborn ability as Chapter tactics, and gives plasma weapons 5 point cheaper. (Remember, plasma was a real DA "trademark" in 3rd.)

Belial: Also leveled up (with OB), and allows termies to count as troops (not TAKEN AS!!!) and have a cap of 5 with mixed armament, and stubborn. He has a sword, which is S6 for to-hit roll of 6.

Sammael: Bikes are taken as troops, have scout and stubborn spec rules, and are at +20 points per unit. He has a S5 MC power sword.

Ezekiel: Weaken Resolve's back! Other than that, he knows 2 basic SM powers. (DA forces were seriously a joke.)

Asmodai: has an ability that gives -1 to Ld rolls in 12", and also a sword which lets you reroll 1 failed to-wound.

Naaman: Scout Sergeant upgrade. Gives outflank to the unit, with auto 5-6 at the roll. Ignores first hit in CC, uses a 4+2D6 AP sniper round, plus on 4+ he may select which model he rolls to wound for (similar to an assasin).
In his entry it's written to add his cost to the squad. Yes, this means, that the +15 point from the scout squad sergeant is still there! So when evaluating if he's cheap or not, please keep this in mind.

Here's the supplement, enjoy! And PLEASE stay so pedantic, and write me any typos you find, just as you did up to now.

My next round would be a real mini-dex, which is based on C: SM. The Dark Angels had a codex in 3rd ed (and also BA had it), I'm planning to do something similar, with some unit entries consisting of "See unit entry in C: SM!". But you should give these things a thought.

So please give me feedback! New version in first post!

HsojVvad
25-10-2008, 00:24
I like the list. I think espically with the Grand Master, (sorry i am tired forgot his name, mind is a blank cant think) he needs to be like 250+ points. You added quite alot, witch I actually like, adds really more character to him now. But for all those bonuses he needs to be more points.

Why all the plasma upgrades though? Is that Fluff or what?

For the Scout guy, (sorry Namman is his name?) instead of sniper scope, why not make his BS 6 or 7 and (again not done yet, and it would show he is excellent with the gun) and up his point to 120 or so.

Good job for round 2 or 3, I am starting to like.

Hankyaku
25-10-2008, 07:39
Well I was rethinking Azrael, and thought that instead of plasma cost decrease, I'll add the Vulkan-like twin linked thing. Plasma stuff is quite fluffy for Dark Angels, just as the stubborn special rule.

In this form he's not as strong as Marneus Calgar is (at least I hope so, I didn't wanted him to be stronger). He's not an Enternal Warrior, and his LD power is far not that strong as Marneus' power, and he has a 4+ power instead of Marneus' "reroll every failed to wound" and double S8. Also there's no teleport homer in his suit.
Azrael was included like this with these abilities minus plasma and stubborn in the Codex for 225 points.
I may raise his points a bit, but I don't know if they really make him worth more than 250 points. He's stronger than Vulkan, but definitely not as strong as Marneus.
Frankly I don't want to make a christmas tree of him costing around a Land raider. But yeah, if I had to choose between stubborn, and twin linked plasmas, I really would face a hard choice, since both are quite fluffy for the dark angels. (Or maybe I'd keep both, and make all squads have that +5 points for Stubborn as they did before, in 3rd ed.)

Sergeant Naaman is the master trainer at the scouts. His point costs in reality is 95, and that is because he's an upgrade to the sergeant (I wanted to retain this, from 3rd ed), just like Chronus is an add-on character. I didn't really wanted to make him more of a marksman, as his main strength is stealth, and CC. I didn't really wanted to raise his point costs more, because the squad he augments can't really do much harm (for example in CC they can't have a power weaon, or power fist, because Naaman is an upgrade - I don't know, maybe I should be giving these to him at the regular point cost as an upgrade). And besides that is only one squad of scouts. He does not have any fancy armour, and is inferior to a chaplain. He's more like of a fun character, than one real strong. I was thinking about giving him assasin-like abilities, but that'd have been overpowering IMHO. That's why I wrote it works only on a 4+, and it's a normal sniper rifle. Still, the AP round is a must have for all master scouts. :D
Afterall he's a CC and stealth specialist, and these rules are more like him. It may also be reasonable to give additional upgrades to the unit he augments.

Hankyaku
25-10-2008, 07:41
Ah, and one more: I'd like to hear an Ork player's opinion on the DW SS+TH thing as well.

Odin
25-10-2008, 08:53
gives plasma weapons 5 point cheaper. (Remember, plasma was a real DA "trademark" in 3rd.)


No. Just no.

The whole DA= plasma thing was a result of the rushed and horribly botched 3rd edition DA Codex. It was a mistake that they rectified.

Hankyaku
25-10-2008, 09:03
Odin: Tell me more about this. I'm quite serious, I don't stick to plasma rerolls. For me, the DA were all plasma, as I started out in 3rd ed couple of years ago, just at the shift from second ed.

I updated the supplement. I moved the plasma stuff to Chapter tactics at Azrael, I also included the "Deathwing Units" special rule, basically making the DW termies available if you include any DA grand master.
I also modified Naamans outflank ability to simple reroll (that's more likely).
Also at Sammael I changed the command squad entry so that the banner upgrade would go to a biker command squad only (the apotechary upgrade is omitted, so he uses the CSquad entry from C:SM).
I also corrected some typos.

So I attached the newer version please check.

Razarael
25-10-2008, 11:16
Ah, and one more: I'd like to hear an Ork player's opinion on the DW SS+TH thing as well.

I'm an Ork player. I wouldn't be too worried about it. You will be vastly outnumbered, and all my 6 point troops can have a 5+ cover save to ensure that they get to the Dark Angels. Regular troops will fight before the Assault Terminators with 4 WS4 S4 attacks, and in close combat, if they don't get the charge, each squad only really has a 10 person kill potential. Not that great versus a horde. Also, give us enough numbers, and we're fearless too.

I recently made an army where everyone that can is carrying a flamer. Burna squads of 10 or 15 will be able to destroy terminators without having to use their powerweapons in close combat, not too mention the Meks in the squad are carrying AP2 guns. Given the storm shields, I would be sure to use every Burna I had as a flamer instead of a powerweapon, as it reduces the likelihood of retalliation. So, killing them may not be too too hard.

A comparison could be made between Nobz and Terminators. Nobz with powerklaws cost more, have an additional wound and attack and significantly worse armor. The additional wound Nobz have becomes redundant as the Thunderhammer would instakill them anyway. So now their bonus is their extra attack. With the Waagh! banner, they'll be hitting the terminators on 3s instead of 4s, so that extra attack will surely be of benefit. The 3+ invuln is pretty big though. I imagine it would end up looking like mutually assured destruction in close combat, be it for normal Nobz or Mega Armor Nobz.

I would be far more concerned with seeing a bigger squad of 10 Terminators with a 3+ invulnerable than just 5.

So, truth be told, I'm not really worried about it.

Ianos
25-10-2008, 13:13
Odin: That'd have been my answer to the problem Ianos raised - again.

But as a Dark Angel, I'm also stubborn, so I'll try to continue explaining this to Ianos:
Let's imagine 1500 points. (I'm not very good at eldar, so I could construct a list like this only.)
DW: HQ: Belial 130 points Troops: 4*5 Termies, SS+TH, 4*Cyclones, 1*Land Raider Crusader 1*Rw squadron (sorry, I had to go multiwing, because you simply CAN'T field else from 1500 points...)

Eldar: HQ: Farseer on Bike with Fortune and Mind War, and the 3D6 thing. 7 Warlock on Jetbike, with one Giving Enhance (so that my calculations in the last post wouldn't work at all...), Troops: 2x5 Guardian on Jetbike firing Shuriken Cannons, 4x12 Guardian Defenders, 2 Bright Lance, 2 Star Cannon (or Scatter laser would be better?), Heavy: 2x Wraithlord with flamers, and 2*BL+2*Scatter Laser.

[QUOTE=Hankyaku;3036520]This way you have to deal with 2 units on 1st turn of the DW brought down by the bikes. 3rd sitting in LR. If you split your forces well enough, then you can actually end up having the DW aim at absolutely unimportant units (Wraithlords for example), while you can open the LR, and save the jetbikes in the meantime. The bikes are to be taken care of, (Star cannons) and you're free to roam then. With the LR opened, you have 4 sitting ducks at the field.


Who the enemy targets is up to him, LR can not be opened by two lances within 2 turns, not by a long-shot! Starcannons are practically unfieldable these days. Also which one of the 3d6 thingies are you talking about...:eyebrows:



Even better if you get first turn! You can open the LR with the lances (no smoke), and you can get rid of bikers. Then DW has problems with teleporting, and you'll have the advantage of mobility. Wraithlords, and the christmas tree warlock unit can be thrown away, as the don't score. So you practically need to take care of those units which are heading your way, and consider, that the DW player has to hold his/her own objective(s) as well.

Every lance has 6% to destroy LR without cover/smoke, you simply have no idea on Eldar as it seems. In fact the new rules make LRs a LOT more durable than 4th ed falcons but nobody is crying now, because they are a marine unit. Wraithlords move as fast as DW or even less if they come via raider. They will die to termies on the first assault. Btw, you are mentioning everything going well on the Eldar behalf, how about DAs going first or simply striking close regardless and dropping 2 heavy flamer totting squads on the guardians. Then one gets hit by the warlocks and the other kills a WL. Also your list is practically unviable regarding other armies as a matchup and has serious flaws like WL not getting a seer for sight tests. Not to mention that it severely lacks AT and is VERY slow with one of your main arguments being the Eldar mobility.



As you seen with mass shots from only one unit of warlocks, you can decimate the numbers of DW. Then one less unit... then one more less... yes, you may end up losing squads in the process, but that's how game goes. If you're unlucky (or don't play this army well), you may use your guardian jetbike units as well, and don't forget about those little footsloggers, you may use them for something.. and even the Wraithlords can squeeze a squad of termies in conjunction with some units else. I just can see if an termie squad gets in 12" of your troops... 24 shots, 6 wounds, one dead (plus heavy wpn). If secured well, or used as an assault supplement, that one may make the difference.

Sure i can then construct a counter list for the one you posted with 3 whirlies and only foot termies, no bikes no LR or simply stuff that can kill masses of Eldar troops. Yeah maybe the termies die to 120 shuriken shots but:

a) that does not mean it is going to happen especially in higher points (which is most frequent these days) where DAs can effectively get 3 LR/3-4 termies and massacre a similar list.
b) Just because a list type MAY give you trouble, does not mean your list is balanced. I had trouble with my mech Eldar vs. Necrons, Tau and Nidzilla but that did not stop 90% of the whiners out there.
c) Total disregard for the examples of other armies. When you need like 3 fexes and a mommy to kill 1 troop unit, hmmmm.... smth is wrong here!


So I'd gladly play against an army like that, maybe I'd roll better, than I did before. Maybe I could even win, if I can force my enemy to any of the corners, and manage to rush his troops, maybe even the warlock unit. Who knows?

Maybe, maybe... I for sure would not allow neither usage of equipment nor anything. Simple as that. Not even for myself if i played DAs. BAs and BTs are getting to use their codex so will DA players vs. me and i do not care how much the majority of the DA players whine.


So enjoy your fantasy and hope for other fools to agree with such stupendous imbalances, have fun!:D

Hankyaku
25-10-2008, 14:03
Ianos: All tanks are more durable now. Falcons, as you've mentioned them are still a threat (I think the engines and roll 2 for effect, and pick the lower is still something quite good), should you be stuffing some nice unit inside. 6 Harlequins are a good go for decimating the troop (more than 2 for 6 basic harlies on charge from 120 points total - even now that rending is weakened). Yes LRs are strong too. You have 10% chance per shot to stop a LR (Immo is good for you too - since Machine Spirint does not move) conting penetrates only. (In the list I wrote there are 4 lances.)

The 3D6 thingie is the one which gives you 3 dice for psy tests discarding the highest.
If you go like "the enemy can select his/her targets", then try to change your views. If you don't force the enemy into selecting targets of your wish, then you'll easy be in trouble with any army you field.

The first part of my theoretical description is about the case when you do not get first turn. It's a lot harder of course, as then the bikers can get the termies to a nice place...
Star Cannons got weaker, that's absolutely correct. You've got 4 more to choose from. Either shooting a few at S6 or just 1-2 at S8.

a.) If you have problems with that, try to play against SM... in higher points of the same caliber (around 2000) the SM will field 30 termies, a good captain with orbital bombardment, and 600 points of troops, just to get something to the ojbectives... That's likely as many units (or even more than DA), which will try to tie all your units, so you won't have a chance to actually go against troops. (Or one less termie squad but a LR which will bring those you who couldn't teleport there.
So take a look at the SM list too, they can get you even worse stuff from 2000.

b.) Then the problem is maybe in your army concept, or playstyle. I don't consider myself a very good player. My best positioning in our national tournament (around 30 ppl) was 3rd place at the yearly summary back in the 3rd. Since then I'm at stable middle ground.

c.) You don't. Try to pick good examples as well. You reason as if only CC solutions would exist.

Also you write about counter list. The list I just wrote for you from 1500 points is a quite good go against anything! I'm not just speaking out of idea, a guy is actually playing this army with even more jetbikes, plus an Avatar (he scraps Wraithlords) at our club. Last time he rained hell on Chaos. It was a very good match, and seemed to be close, when chaos troops began assaulting, but the couner assault from the Eldar was suprisingly even more devastating. I thought that he'll lose when I saw the massed chaos, and the fist chaos attack of a DP plus troops. The Eldar sacrifised a troop choice, but he got a lot of shots back, and eliminated two troops, and caused many wounds on the DP (summing it with the assaults too). He just thrown in everything. In the meantime he started to bring some troops towards his objectives, opened two rhinos, so chaos was slowed down.

I managed to beat this army once with a multiwing army, and some luck on my side. I brought Sammael with me, so I had biker troops plus a Whirlwind, and some termies (maybe 2 squads?). He managed to destroy EVERYTHING in my army but one attack bike, and 3 bikes. My termies bound his Warlock unit of 5 (jetbike), and slowly began wearing them down. When they were finished, only two warlocks were standing, but the last turn was out, I got one attack bike at my objective, and a bike squad in CC at his objective. If that hadn't been the last turn, I'm done for. But like this, luck was with me, and I turned the game with some help from above. We both enjoyed the match despite massacre I got.

Lucky man I am I don't have to play against you... you know what? If I would, I would just put those sweet 30 termies up on the table, a load of camo cloaked scouts, and Shrike, just to get my termies to you in time with fleet...I'd just save my objectives, and maybe outflank with the scouts... That would be from the normal ordinary SM list! So no overpowered custom DA, you're objecting against. Just simple vanilla SM!

By the way the "other fools" here have just said, that they're not up against such "stupendous imbalances". The "other fools" who are at my gaming clubs, are also okay with that (as they can do nearly the same with their SM list).

BTW: If you take a look at the supplement I made, I gave Belial a rule following which the termies count as troops, not taken as one. That means, that there are 3 termie squads, when Belial is on the board. I hope it satisfied your "imbalance" senses. However I'm thinking on reconsidering it, as it kills DW just as it is (practically there's no all-termie army anymore).

Still I'm asking the opinions about this list of IG, Tau, and Necron players.

Myself also playing Necron, I don't really know what I could do against such a list. But I'm also in a big trouble against regular SM. Against these termies, 5 immortals can score a wound per turn, and warriors too. Pariahs are a good go against them, but nothing else! CC is a funny thing, if you have an orb...:) But I think Necron against Sm is just another thread.

Odin
26-10-2008, 10:33
Odin: Tell me more about this. I'm quite serious, I don't stick to plasma rerolls. For me, the DA were all plasma, as I started out in 3rd ed couple of years ago, just at the shift from second ed.

I updated the supplement. I moved the plasma stuff to Chapter tactics at Azrael, I also included the "Deathwing Units" special rule, basically making the DW termies available if you include any DA grand master.
I also modified Naamans outflank ability to simple reroll (that's more likely).
Also at Sammael I changed the command squad entry so that the banner upgrade would go to a biker command squad only (the apotechary upgrade is omitted, so he uses the CSquad entry from C:SM).
I also corrected some typos.

So I attached the newer version please check.

3rd edition was an abomination. The core rules were very poor, and they released about one Codex every month at the start. They were all rushed, and none of them were really thought through properly. The DA Codex allowed Plasma Cannons in Tactical Squads and on Dreadnaughts, and all of a sudden people new to the game got the impression that somehow Dark Angels were the plasma army. It has since been rectified, by allowing normal marines access to Plasma Cannons.

It would be best for all involved to pretend 3rd edition never happened.

Hankyaku
26-10-2008, 11:50
Odin: How did the DA fare in the 2nd ed? What was their spec thing? The intractable worked differently, but it was quite a drawback.
Myself, beginning with the 3rd ed as I wrote, I really thought that DA is a plasma-fan army, and I loved it, since I'm fond of rolling 1-s. :)
Actually in one of the last games I rolled 10 1-s out of 28 rolls. :D In a game 2 days before, I actually rolled 5 1-s out of 10 twice during the game, but I always roll at least 2 1-s out of 10 rolls.

So what was the "real" DA fluffy thing in 2nd ed? I'd like to bring something real in. This twin-linked stuff was like Vulkan at Azrael, while the DW termies count as troop at Belial is like Pedro Kantor.

MadDoc
28-10-2008, 06:05
All thats really needed is for the Dark Angels to be brought into line with C:SM.

My take on whats needed. (http://www.geocities.com/mcbuff.geo/DarkAngels5thEd.pdf)

All in my IMNSHO.

Edit: It also doesn't take almost exclusively all the good stuff, and buff units beyond their ostensibly identical C:SM equivalents. :angel:

MasterGideon
28-10-2008, 08:14
MadDoc, That PDF sums up everything we need to be fixed! see how easy it is to do Mr GW!:)

how about a C : DA Redux, they can release a new one with the new changes, and we can trade in our old one, say the new costs £6quid if you have your old copy present, solves all the prombles!

MadDoc for President of GW!:)

MasterGideon

Hankyaku
28-10-2008, 08:41
Yep MadDoc, that sounds like a DA redux (although I didn't wanted to go this far with it).
As per this, the Tac squad does take a spec weapon even when under 10 ppl.
Also notice the cost of Land speeders (bit high), and there's a typo at the scout entry (Drop pods). That's it for first sight.
About Ezekiel: has he been syncronized with Tigurius?

MadDoc
28-10-2008, 08:45
MadDoc, That PDF sums up everything we need to be fixed! see how easy it is to do Mr GW!:)

Thats a couple of hours work during study breaks (damn second degree) having to create the base resources from scratch (GW have the resources they need to do a Redux). How hard is it GW how freaking hard?


how about a C : DA Redux, they can release a new one with the new changes, and we can trade in our old one, say the new costs £6quid if you have your old copy present, solves all the prombles!

Yes, but that would be a solution and GW seems dead set against those... :angel:


MadDoc for President of GW!:)

MasterGideon

Why thank you. :D

MadDoc
28-10-2008, 09:22
Yep MadDoc, that sounds like a DA redux (although I didn't wanted to go this far with it).
As per this, the Tac squad does take a spec weapon even when under 10 ppl.

Correct, which is why the weapons still cost more.


Also notice the cost of Land speeders (bit high),

And? They're RW and can be in units of up to 5 strong. Besides, monkeying with this would smack alittle of trying to out "Matt Ward" Matt Ward (by that I mean out cheese the king of the broken list).


and there's a typo at the scout entry (Drop pods).

:eyebrows: Nitpicking much? :p A minor issue at best, one which has already been fixed. Check for yourself.


That's it for first sight.
About Ezekiel: has he been syncronized with Tigurius?

Yes, now Ezekiel can use two powers a turn (like an Epistolery, when I fixed the typo I added a note about this as well) and his stats are the same as Tigurius', i.e. the same as a normal Librarian. Before anybody asks the reason Tigurius gets to use 3 powers is due to his Hood of Hellfire, not his status as a Chief Librarian.

Hankyaku
28-10-2008, 10:59
Correct, which is why the weapons still cost more.
Okay, I begin to hear the "voices" again crying that we took only the positive sides (does the increased weapon cost negate the flexibility?) :)



And? They're RW and can be in units of up to 5 strong. Besides, monkeying with this would smack alittle of trying to out "Matt Ward" Matt Ward (by that I mean out cheese the king of the broken list).
That's also correct, but if you take a look, a unit of 5 Speeders without anything would cost around 45 points more, than 5 SM land speeders (totalling at 325 points). Still, we got the limitation of taking only ONE tornado, and only ONE Typhoon fitted speeder. As far as I remember the SM can field a whole unit of Tornados, or typhoons. And with this cost, a Typhoon armed speeder costs 105 point - and does not worth that much by far - taking into account the efficiency of speeders nowadays. So a fully fitted squad, which consists of 3 HB only, 1 Typhoon and 1 AC Tornado variant will cost 400 points. SM can make a more efficient unit below 300 points. I just say that you should lower the upgrade cost a bit. (That was how I approached it.


:eyebrows: Nitpicking much? :p A minor issue at best, one which has already been fixed. Check for yourself.
And what? Shouldn't I mention what I found? I though that's the way to make a doc like this better... Nitpicking would be messing with what you write with capital letters, and what you don't. I believe, that you corrected it, I won't check.


Yes, now Ezekiel can use two powers a turn (like an Epistolery, when I fixed the typo I added a note about this as well) and his stats are the same as Tigurius', i.e. the same as a normal Librarian. Before anybody asks the reason Tigurius gets to use 3 powers is due to his Hood of Hellfire, not his status as a Chief Librarian.
Okay, I was just asking. Yep, I've noticed, that the Hood of Hellfire gives the increase.
At Ezekiel IMHO the usage of only one power per turn was a major drawback. As it means, that now he can use the FW and one power per turn, which is more realistic, for such a special character.

About the doc: you should've asked me to send you the word version of what I did. I gladly would've sent it to you, I wrote it in the first post as well. That would've spared you a huge amount of work.

Odin
28-10-2008, 12:14
Good Work, MadDoc. Though I really would use the Tactical Squad rules direct from Codex:SM (minus Combat Tactics).

I'd also use the reduced points costs from C:SM for Landspeeders - after all, the rules are identical.

MasterGideon
28-10-2008, 20:34
Very Good Work, I would also like to point out after reading the posts on this, someone was talking about restricting DW in some ways.
We are already restricted in many ways, as the new C: SM codex allows you to take 30 terminators as elite choices, but for the DA to have access to 30 Terminators, we are forced to take Belial, so we can mix, which does help but that also is the trade off being forced to take Belial to allow the DA to have more than 15 Deathwing in a DA Standard Army.
Plus if you go by the fluff the DA and the Successors are the only ones that have a Full First Company In Terminator Armour, so allowing them to mix and be as troops fits in to the history and rules, after all they are effectively the sternguard/vanguard/chapter vets, so why not allow them mixed units.
Plus about the Drop Pod rules/Deathwing Assault, I think DA should be allowed to have both, the Dark Angels are 80% Standard Codex, but maybe only allow Dreadnoughts to use the Drop Pod Assault, seeming that Deathwing/Dreads naturally support each other.

Master Gideon

Hankyaku
28-10-2008, 21:27
The point in the major arguments is the 3+SS we would get.
Some say, that this thing in itself plus the terimes as troop choices is just powergaming. You need to see of course, that from 1500 points, we get 30 models, and no HQ, no hvy. So DW has a quite point cost/wound. It is of course more surviving than the rest. A 1000 point DW army effective consists of 15 termies, a HQ, and a dreadnought. That's 17 miniatures. You can easly run out of these wound, and if you sum it, you don't have many attacks either. From bigger points, DW is the real advantage. The usual game sizes (2000 points) however limit DW a bit.

MadDoc
29-10-2008, 06:15
Good Work, MadDoc. Though I really would use the Tactical Squad rules direct from Codex:SM (minus Combat Tactics).

The weapons are much more expensive in DA Tactical squads, the special weapons are all 5 points more expensive for Dark Angels and the Heavy Weapons (even with the Ten model prerequisite) are all 10 points more expensive, I'd consider that balancing, wouldn't you? :angel:


I'd also use the reduced points costs from C:SM for Landspeeders - after all, the rules are identical.

Updated (although I'm still alittle leery of doing it).


Okay, I begin to hear the "voices" again crying that we took only the positive sides (does the increased weapon cost negate the flexibility?) :)

I think so, theres quite a difference in cost.


That's also correct, but if you take a look, a unit of 5 Speeders without anything would cost around 45 points more, than 5 SM land speeders (totalling at 325 points). Still, we got the limitation of taking only ONE tornado, and only ONE Typhoon fitted speeder. As far as I remember the SM can field a whole unit of Tornados, or typhoons. And with this cost, a Typhoon armed speeder costs 105 point - and does not worth that much by far - taking into account the efficiency of speeders nowadays. So a fully fitted squad, which consists of 3 HB only, 1 Typhoon and 1 AC Tornado variant will cost 400 points. SM can make a more efficient unit below 300 points. I just say that you should lower the upgrade cost a bit. (That was how I approached it.

I've relented and lowered the base cost of the Speeders (also added Deep Strike, though the number of options remains unchanged).


And what? Shouldn't I mention what I found?

Ok... apparently you didn't notice the smiley (:p) after the first part of that. I wasn't actually being serious.


I though that's the way to make a doc like this better... Nitpicking would be messing with what you write with capital letters, and what you don't.

I copied the conventions in the new C:SM so you wouldn't be nitpicking my work if you had done that anyway.


Okay, I was just asking. Yep, I've noticed, that the Hood of Hellfire gives the increase.
At Ezekiel IMHO the usage of only one power per turn was a major drawback. As it means, that now he can use the FW and one power per turn, which is more realistic, for such a special character.

Precisely why he's now Epistolary equivalent power usage wise.


About the doc: you should've asked me to send you the word version of what I did. I gladly would've sent it to you, I wrote it in the first post as well. That would've spared you a huge amount of work.

Its ok, I managed to work out a near perfect template for future use, so its all good.


Plus about the Drop Pod rules/Deathwing Assault, I think DA should be allowed to have both, the Dark Angels are 80% Standard Codex, but maybe only allow Dreadnoughts to use the Drop Pod Assault, seeming that Deathwing/Dreads naturally support each other.

Master Gideon

Why shouldn't the Dark Angels DP have DPA? They use them in the same way as other Marine Chapters, and its not like it'd unbalance the army, afterall DW pay for DWA already.

Updated version (http://www.geocities.com/mcbuff.geo/DarkAngels5thEd.pdf)

MasterGideon
29-10-2008, 07:42
Oh I totally get the arguement for the SS+3 save, thats is a killer upgrade I personally think it should be 3+ in CC only.

I am still staying well clear of my mates Pariahs! the 3+ save means nothing to them :(

But MadDoc you should submit this to GW and say "look I have done your FAQ for DA" :)

Odin
29-10-2008, 12:06
The weapons are much more expensive in DA Tactical squads, the special weapons are all 5 points more expensive for Dark Angels and the Heavy Weapons (even with the Ten model prerequisite) are all 10 points more expensive, I'd consider that balancing, wouldn't you? :angel:


No, I'd call tat a kick in the teeth for any Dark Angels player who uses Tactical Squads.

The DA Codex encourages un-fluffy use of Tactical squads. The new SM Codex has finally cracked it, and identified a way to make the 10-man tactical squad the most viable set-up. Finally, the background and the rules are in harmony.

MadDoc
30-10-2008, 00:16
No, I'd call tat a kick in the teeth for any Dark Angels player who uses Tactical Squads.

I'd hardly call it that. The new C:SM was more of a kick in the teeth than this, or even almost any of the old DA Codices. But exaggerations aside...


The DA Codex encourages un-fluffy use of Tactical squads. The new SM Codex has finally cracked it, and identified a way to make the 10-man tactical squad the most viable set-up. Finally, the background and the rules are in harmony.

Better? (http://www.geocities.com/mcbuff.geo/DarkAngels5thEdAlt.pdf)

And before anyone says anything, I know they still don't have variable squad size, but I don't think they need it (in other words, I do not plan on changing it, you guys however, can do whatever you like).

Odin
30-10-2008, 11:19
I'd hardly call it that. The new C:SM was more of a kick in the teeth than this, or even almost any of the old DA Codices. But exaggerations aside...

Yeah, what I meant was, now that the Codex:SM has finally made 10-man tactical squads worthwhile, it would be a kick in the teeth if the next DA Codex didn't have the same sort of thing.


Better? (http://www.geocities.com/mcbuff.geo/DarkAngels5thEdAlt.pdf)

And before anyone says anything, I know they still don't have variable squad size, but I don't think they need it (in other words, I do not plan on changing it, you guys however, can do whatever you like).[/QUOTE]

Yup, better. Though I forgot it would mean including combi-weapons and stormbolters. Not sure whether we should have those for squad sergeants or not...?

I only ever take 10-man Tactical Squads, but I think a little flexibility with the Assault, Scout and Devastator Squads is sensible. GW have made 10-man tactical squads worthwhile, but Assault Squads (for example) are too weedy at 5-men, and too unweildy at 10-men.