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gundark
22-10-2008, 15:18
I'm looking at trying out a daemon weapon for my chaos army (the generic one as I play chaos undivided). I'm torn though, on the one hand you've got the potential for awesomeness and on the other you're paying a lot of points for a very sucky result (potentially).

So has anyone tried them? Is the undivided daemon weapon worth it?

EVIL INC
22-10-2008, 15:22
I've tried the Tzeentch one and has "meh" results. To me, they are great or fluff and storyline for an army but for actual "effectiveness for your points", I always go for the power weapon.

x-esiv-4c
22-10-2008, 15:31
Ever since C:CSM came out for 5th i've never bothered with a Daemon-weapon. I can't validate the points cost.

Madfool2
22-10-2008, 15:35
Depends if you are willing to take the risk, personally an S5 power weapon with D6 extra attacks is something I'd go with, even with the risk of slicing you're own face off.

J-L
22-10-2008, 15:39
I have an undivided daemon weapon on my lord. Too random to be worth it, but they're still great fun, and great when they work. Also it's one of the few weapons CSM has that SM don't have.

DarkReaver
22-10-2008, 15:42
They are a real gamble at times but sometimes they pay off. I use a Slaanesh Lord with Blissgiver.
Bear in mind I have to date never rolled a 1 for my number of extra attacks (Now that I've said this it will happen in my next game)
Sometimes he goes off into battle and doesn't even make off one kill while most times he makes back his own points and then some ie (Chapter Master, 2 Dreadnoughts and a ten man Devastator unit).
If it wasn't for my unusually high luck I'd probs never use Daemon Weapons as they are expensive.

Dweomer
22-10-2008, 15:58
Personally, I think if you're getting your Lord into CC then the Daemon Weapon is worth it.

I always look at the math: The risk of doing nothing is low, 16.7%. The ability to kill MEQs will increase by 11% per attack. So it's a base 33% increase of output against my normal targets. Then there's an 83% chance your Lord will be getting an extra 2-6 attacks. Given that a single attack typically costs +10 points... I think the Daemon Weapon is cheap for the cost.

I'll gladly run an Undivided Lord and point him at the thick of things. A few Termies to back him up and it can be ugly. I'll run a Slaaneshi Lord with Blissgiver and point him at ICs and multi-wound enemies. I've yet to lose him to CC despite dozens of games... (Shooting is a whole different matter.) I don't bother with the Tzneetchian as I have my Thousand Sons for AP3 work, so I'll run a Sorceror with Force Weapon there. I don't play the other two aspects for Fluff reasons, but they seem fairly decent if used right also.

Hope that helps...

Havarel
22-10-2008, 16:12
I personally always give mine an undivided daemon weapon. Its ace for munching through a squad of MEQs, potentially a lot of nice strength power weapon attacks.

Nero
22-10-2008, 16:17
As of 5th edition, the nurgle DW is the superior weapon. It's better than the undivided DW by far, which itself is better than all of the other daemon weapons.

You can't beat rerolls against Toughness 4 or lower, always wounding on 4+ against Toughness 5 or higher. Seriously, you can't.

TheOverlord
22-10-2008, 16:21
I tried a Khorne Daemon Weapon once.

Rolled an 11 for 15 attacks.

That was a LOT of dead MEQs.

I think the DW is pretty good, fun and all around solid weapon as long as you aren't cursed by the dice Gods.

Smiling Banshee
22-10-2008, 17:25
I have used a Khorne lord with a daemon weapon in my last three games. Ive had real rotten luck wit it though. In my last game he didn't attack all game despite a 2nd turn assault. But i will continue to use him just for the potential he has. One day I will roll well and then my enemies better watch out:evilgrin:

DrDoom
22-10-2008, 17:28
I've used them all and I think they're worth the points. I've rolled some ones and some 6's, but the Lord has never failed to make his points back.

The lord I have the most fun with is the Khorne Lord with wings and DW. That guy slaughters everything.

Sarevok
22-10-2008, 17:37
Personally, I think if you're getting your Lord into CC then the Daemon Weapon is worth it.

I always look at the math: The risk of doing nothing is low, 16.7%. The ability to kill MEQs will increase by 11% per attack. So it's a base 33% increase of output against my normal targets. Then there's an 83% chance your Lord will be getting an extra 2-6 attacks. Given that a single attack typically costs +10 points... I think the Daemon Weapon is cheap for the cost.


I disagree. For one, +10 for an attack is a bit steep, especially as you're getting diminished returns as the number of attacks increases.

I'd always say, compare to the old reliable twin lightning claws.

Daemon Weapon - 3+D6 attacks, 0 attacks on a 1 means an average of 5.83 attacks, which is an average of 1.944444 wounds against MEQ

TLC - 4 attacks with re-rolled wounds = 2 wounds on average against MEQ

Of course this doesn't take into account the extra mark dependant ability, the Undivided and Nurgle DWs will do more damage on average, but then the Daemon Weapon is 10 points more than TLC and can also wound you every time you fail, I'm not seeing how it's such a great buy.

lordalchemy
22-10-2008, 18:59
As some one already said, the nurgle weapon is by far the best, the ability for re-rolls on enemies T 4 or lower and wounding anything on 4+ is just plain awesome. The fact that your lord could go after MCs and even wraith lords with the dreaded T 8 makes along with re-rolls for T4 or lower enemies makes this the best buy with the undivided weapon coming in second.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
22-10-2008, 19:09
Lord is already subpar choice.

DP is way better.

But DW are fun and for casual games are more than OK.

Admiral Samuel Eden
22-10-2008, 19:17
Why isn't DW of Slaanesh or Khorne really so great.
My friend uses a lord with DW of Khorne in most games and everytime it has been very impressive. This does have something to do with luck, but I have only seen him roll one 1 in twenty or so games and once that lord with jump pack hits my lines, a unit is dead. Usually I let him kill a whole unit and then shoot him with a lascannon when he gets out of combat but its never very pretty. The other trick was to send a librarian with familiars in against him which mean that I struck first, but it really is messy. I have seen him kill fifteen guard before in one turn, just with his attacks.
As to the slaanesh one, it is horrible. The ability to instant death and have +D6 attacks and have +1 Strength really makes things look bad for multiple would units and beasties. Though I would say that it is not too effective. The nurgle one is good as is already said and the tzeentch one is rubbish. I have never seen the undivided one come out, but it seems to me that if your going to spend the points on a daemon weapon, you might as well get a mark. I mean you get the advantages to the models stats and the boost on the weapon. A Initiative 6 lord that auto kills is really horrible. Slaanesh likes killing Eldar heroes.

Fixer
22-10-2008, 19:18
Most of the demon weapons are worthwhile.

Undivided is plain but powerful. A good Meq killer and the extra strength is useful for taking on pretty much anything.
Tzeentch (my personal flavour of choice) Adds some nice firepower and with the MoT and a Disc you'll be putting down plenty of good hits in combat.
Blissgiver is perhaps the best character killing weapon in the game. A boosted initiative WS6 instant death sword? Nice.
Nurgle demon weapon... not so great. Unless you're facing lots of Wraithlords, C'Tan or giant bugs in your games the undivided weapon is better. I would personally avoid this one.
Khorne... Khorne is a crazy one. You have just less than a 1/3 chance of your khornate fruitcake of a lord lodging his shiny new demon axe in his own crotch. However with a basic lord scoring 11 attacks basic all other times it can be well worth the effort. Put him on a demonic steed and DAMN. He has 12 attacks average at Str 5. Throw in new combat resoloution rules onto that badassedness.

The comparison most folks make is usually to the paired lightning claws. They're more reliable and generally wont try to eat your soul. They compare pretty favourably to the standard demon weapon in damage output.

Anyway demon weapons are worth the cost in most situations just as long as you can take the good with the bad, combat resolutions against things like Orks or nids are going to be a killer and any extra casualties you cause against them are probably going to be doubled up.

Also I am glad that demon weapons actually have a drawback now. What was it in 4th edition? A 1/12 chance of a 1/2 chance of wounding a model that had a 1/3 chance of ignoring it? Fickle powers of chaos indeed.

edit:
Didn't know about the reroll against same T or lower than S thing with poisoned weapons. Disregard previous statement about Nurgle weapon, it's actually really good!

Ravenheart
22-10-2008, 19:36
Didn't know about the reroll against same T or lower than S thing with poisoned weapons. Disregard previous statement about Nurgle weapon, it's actually really good!

The re-roll makes it a great allrounder. I don't have the math at hand now, but it's easly on par with the undivided one against GEQs/MEQs and a lot better against T6+.

Imho, the blissgiver is of questionable use, as a lot of creatures you'd like to use it against are immune to ID (Nids, Daemons, various characters).
Also IC hunting is not that easy, if the opponent anticipates it.

FunkyRatDemon
22-10-2008, 20:33
Undivided is the best IMO (S5 does soooo much)
Slaanesh is good for IC killing (and he's I6!)
Tzeentch is ok, best if the model has Wings
Nurgle doesn't do enough, and should likely be wound easily enough anyways, even with rerolls your better investing in more troops...
Khorne is too dangerous for my taste

DarkstarSabre
22-10-2008, 21:20
I find that Undivided works best to be honest. The marked ones seem to be too situational against things to justify their cost. Slaanesh falls down against anything immune to ID...so Tyranids, Daemons and anything with Eternal Warrior just laughs at the lord. Tzeentch, although nice with the range element does little to compensate the cost of the MoT to take the weapon in first place. Nurgle is often wasted against hordes where poisoned rerolls don't seem as useful as S5, wound on 2s in most cases does.

And Khorne is the penultimate horde killer but it is more likely to kill you than any other weapon.

Sarevok
22-10-2008, 21:21
As to the slaanesh one, it is horrible. The ability to instant death and have +D6 attacks and have +1 Strength really makes things look bad for multiple would units and beasties. Though I would say that it is not too effective. The nurgle one is good as is already said and the tzeentch one is rubbish. I have never seen the undivided one come out, but it seems to me that if your going to spend the points on a daemon weapon, you might as well get a mark. I mean you get the advantages to the models stats and the boost on the weapon. A Initiative 6 lord that auto kills is really horrible. Slaanesh likes killing Eldar heroes.

You only get +1S on the undivided weapon. Other weapons only strike at S4.

Bloodknight
22-10-2008, 21:37
Nurgle does not do enough?
The undivided one wounds T3 on 2+ (83,3%), Nurgle wounds T3 on 3+rerollable (66,6%+22,2%=88,8%).
Vs T4 the undivided one wounds on 3+ (66,6%), Nurgle 4+rerollable (75%)
Vs T5 the undivided one wounds on 4+, Nurgle ditto.
T6: 5+ vs 4+ (33,% vs 50%)
T7: 6+ vs 4+ (16,6% vs 50%)
T8: 6+ vs 4+

The Plaguebringer wins vs all enemies except T5, there it is only exactly as good...

The other DWs are pretty naff, though. The Slaaneshi one doesn't work that well since a lot of its potential targets are immune to ID (I think the only unit it works against is Ogryns...), the Tzeentch one isn't that great because it is a gun on a fighty character, and the Khornate one is just too dangerous. There is about a 30% chance to do nothing and wound yourself in any given combat phase. While a normal DW can be expected to punch your character in the face once per game (3 turns in combat for 6 combat phases), a Khornate weapon will do it twice on average. And since Khorne lords are only S4, that huge amount of attacks still has a hard time beating a pair of lighting claws on them.

Let's assume the Khorne guy fights in 6 combat phases and never charges (because that isn't easy to calculate. He could lose all attacks on the charge etc.).

On average he will get 4x4 + 4x7 attacks (the weapon punches him in the face twice, so he gets his bonus attacks only 4 times) => 44 attacks. He also loses between 1 and two wounds (1,33) from his weapon. This will kill on average 15,2 Space Marines.

With a pair of lightning claws he will get 30 attacks with rerolls to wound. That will kill on average 14,8 Marines.

So for 10 points more you get a weapon that is barely better in terms of damage, but makes you lose wounds, and, as I said, I did not count charge attacks. I guess that the LCs will outperform the DW if they are counted in because you are more likely to get the bonus attacks with TLC.
One also has to take the lost wounds into account and the fact that the lord won't strike at all if he gets a 1. This means that even grunts which he would have killed with the TLC now get a chance at killing him, often on a wound count that is already reduced. From a mathematical point of view, the Bloodfeeder is silly.

The Nurgle DW will outperform the TLCs (it also gets rerolls vs low T, and is pretty equal against T5, and better vs T6+) because of its abilities and a smaller chance of screwing your boss over. Against MEqs it gets 5x3+5x3.5 attacks for 16.1 dead MEqs vs 24 attacks from Lightning claws for 11.8 dead MEqs.

The undivided is better against MEqs. 3x5+5x3.5 S5 attacks vs 6x4 S4 R attacks: 14.1 vs 11.88 dead MEq

Slaanesh is a glorified power weapon and very situational. Vs troops, it's probably the worst of the lot. 5x3 + 5x3.5 attacks => 32.5 vs 6x4 TLC attacks => 10.7 vs 11.88 dead MEq

Tzeentch cannot be compared well, since it's shooty. But well: a guy with a Tzeetch DW gets on average 17.5 shots per game of 6 turns and will kill 7.2 MEqs in the open with it.

When I say that the DW outperforms TLC, please keep in mind, that that roll of 1 can happen any time and get your character killed before he can do anything. It's not unlikely to roll it on the first combat turn and get killed. If you are one for safety, choose TLC.


edit: the Nurgle math may be off since I calculated with 3+ rerollable vs. T3. After rereading the rules for poisoned weapons, it seems that the wielder's strength has nothing to do with it, you just reroll the 4+. So the undivided one is better vs T3, by ca 8.3% on the to-wound).

Xandros
22-10-2008, 22:04
Tzeentch cannot be compared well, since it's shooty. But well: a guy with a Tzeetch DW gets on average 17.5 shots per game of 6 turns and will kill 7.2 MEqs in the open with it.


Tzeentch is quite similar to a WT/doombolt sorcerer. Costs a little less, performs a little less.

Bloodknight
22-10-2008, 22:19
The Tzeentch lord costs 10 points less than a WT/Doombolt sorcerer of Tzeentch.

The Lord, as I said, kills about 7.2 MEqs with his firepower, while a sorcerer will get 18 shots with rerolls to hit and to wound. Thats roughly 17.5 hits and 13 wounds. The sorcerer performs almost twice as well, of course without taking failing spells into account. At LD10, he will usually fail one or two spells over 6 turns, since he casts 12 spells. (Thanks to Warptime, he's also pretty good in CC since a sorcerer with that power technically uses supermastercrafted lightning claws). It's hard to calculate that, though, because he could lose 6 shots, or 6 rerolls for everything, or just 3 shots and 3 rerolls, etc., or all could work, or he could lose 3 shots or 3 rerolls. Since this is so random, I am not really keen on working all scenarios out ^^

Axis
23-10-2008, 00:04
If you are worried about rolling a 1 and hurting yourself go play something boring like normal space marines. You are chaos not some pansy!

If you don't think it kills enough then that is another matter, it is up to you. I like my undivided daemon weapon though. So focus on the damage it deals and whether you would prefer lightning claws (or some other weapon). I run a term lord with undiv DW and a combi bolter. You lose the shooting with lightning claws but, well, it is only a bolter but it does still kill stuff. Especially non-MEQ and avatars (my bolters are the only thing that reliably wounds avatars and then makes them fail saves.. i have no idea why. i shoot missiles or lascannons at them and they pass the invul.. i shoot crappy bolters and they fail)

Adra
23-10-2008, 00:29
Ive been known to use a Khorn Lord with a jumpack and DW.....run him down a flank. Hes scary in cc but maybe his biggest strength is the fear he creates. Just your enemy knowing how scary he COULD be is enough to either make them avoid him or focus too much on killing him.

Captain Marius
23-10-2008, 00:32
Am I wrong in thinking that Tyranids are only immune to ID caused by double strength weapons? Therefore the Blissgiver should be immensely useful at slaughtering Warriors and potentially Tyrants and Fexes with a bit of luck? Good against Ork Nobz and Tau Battlesuits as well!

Personally I've had a lot of luck with the Bloodfeeder; it's by far the least reliable of the Daemon Weapons, but its potential for carnage is awesome and makes it worth the points for sheer intimidation factor.

marv335
23-10-2008, 00:42
I've seen Khorne Lords massacre whole squads in combat far more often than I've seen them fall down dead from their own weapon.

Bloodknight
23-10-2008, 00:48
Am I wrong in thinking that Tyranids are only immune to ID caused by double strength weapons?

Actually yes. They overruled that in a later FAQ. They are immune to all instant death causing things, be it double strength, force weapons and whatnot.

Amnar
23-10-2008, 01:05
I always use Blissgiver with my Slaaneshi Termie lord. Sure it's risky, but when it works, it's fantastic. The key is to support your lord enough that if he whiffs, he still has enough buddies around him to clear out enough of the opposition. It's great when he rocks IC's...

Deuce Blue
23-10-2008, 01:19
I have used an undivided DW on my Word Bearers Lord for the last few games, as it is the closest thing to representing his cursed chaplain weapon. He has managed to roll a 1 I would honestly say 80% of the time. He has killed himself twice by rolling 1's 3 straight times in two different games.... I have only managed to maybe get his attacks off 2 or 3 times, but when they do work it is good stuff. I blame the fact that he is not fully painted, and that rolling 1's is his way of getting to the top of my painting priority.

Occulto
23-10-2008, 01:46
If you are worried about rolling a 1 and hurting yourself go play something boring like normal space marines. You are chaos not some pansy!

That's my philosophy. :evilgrin:

Axis
23-10-2008, 06:54
I blame the fact that he is not fully painted, and that rolling 1's is his way of getting to the top of my painting priority.

Hahaha... sounds suspiciously like my obliterators.

Mojaco
23-10-2008, 09:42
Ive been known to use a Khorn Lord with a jumpack and DW.....run him down a flank. Hes scary in cc but maybe his biggest strength is the fear he creates. Just your enemy knowing how scary he COULD be is enough to either make them avoid him or focus too much on killing him.

That's the key. Having stood across several daemon weapons, this is the key. A DP is pretty bad, but you can estimate if a charge is really that terrible and such. A lord with DW is incredibly unpredictable and therefor not something you charge lightly. They're scary.

squeekenator
23-10-2008, 10:43
I've used Blissgiver a fair bit, but even with the Lash I've never managed to hit a character with it. Still, the horrific devastation a squad of Berzerkers can cause if you give them an extra d6+4 power weapon attacks each turn is just rude. I know my next Lord's going to have the mark of Nurgle and a daemon weapon, and he will kick some serious teeth. Regardless of whether or not daemon weapons are competitively worth it, the psychological impact and the sheer asskickery rolling a 6 causes is enough for me to take them over even my beloved dual lightning claws.

Griffin
23-10-2008, 11:10
I love the Khornate one - My god when it fails, it fails in a big way BUT when it works, damn is it worth it.

Tonberry
23-10-2008, 12:48
Forgive my bastardized math and logic, but with nothing happening on a roll of a 1, and with dice having 6 sides of equal probability and games being 6 turns long (not in 5th IIRC, but I already asked forgiveness for the poor maths), going by Tonberry logic, every game you play your daemon wielding lord will spend a turn hitting himself. This is not good news.

Disclaimer: Tonberry logic does not take into account the fact that your lord will not be in combat every turn, or that statistics don't work in the real world, or that games are no longer 6 turns long. :)

Mojaco
23-10-2008, 13:20
You can add to the disclaimer that a combat round can occur twice each turn. All in all, you've got some re-thinking to do :D

Tonberry
23-10-2008, 13:25
You can add to the disclaimer that a combat round can occur twice each turn. All in all, you've got some re-thinking to do :D

Ah, but with my impeccable logic, surely this means a daemon weapon lord will spend two turns not doing anything, which rounded up (the special logic way) is half of the game :angel:

Bloodknight
23-10-2008, 18:34
I calculated with the Lord being in combat half the game (3 turns, 6 phases), that's IMHO not a bad estimate. Could be a bit more with a jump pack depending on mission, could be a bit less if he always kills the enemy unit in his turn, so he has to charge more often and loses the opponent's phase, if you get what I mean.

Admiral Samuel Eden
23-10-2008, 19:07
"I find that Undivided works best to be honest. The marked ones seem to be too situational against things to justify their cost. Slaanesh falls down against anything immune to ID...so Tyranids, Daemons and anything with Eternal Warrior just laughs at the lord."

Um they don't laugh at your lord at all. The DW still gives all the advantages of a undivided one and the character is now I6 to boot. High toughness models do pose a problem, but immune to ID just downgrades the weapon it doesn't nullify it.

Amnar
23-10-2008, 19:54
I've used Blissgiver a fair bit, but even with the Lash I've never managed to hit a character with it. Still, the horrific devastation a squad of Berzerkers can cause if you give them an extra d6+4 power weapon attacks each turn is just rude. I know my next Lord's going to have the mark of Nurgle and a daemon weapon, and he will kick some serious teeth. Regardless of whether or not daemon weapons are competitively worth it, the psychological impact and the sheer asskickery rolling a 6 causes is enough for me to take them over even my beloved dual lightning claws.

My favorite lord moment ever was when my slaaneshi terminator lord charged a carnifex that was out of synapse and rolled two 6's to wound. There's something particularly sweet about instakilling a carni

Amnar
23-10-2008, 19:56
"I find that Undivided works best to be honest. The marked ones seem to be too situational against things to justify their cost. Slaanesh falls down against anything immune to ID...so Tyranids, Daemons and anything with Eternal Warrior just laughs at the lord."

Um they don't laugh at your lord at all. The DW still gives all the advantages of a undivided one and the character is now I6 to boot. High toughness models do pose a problem, but immune to ID just downgrades the weapon it doesn't nullify it.

It doesn't get the s5 though, that's undivided only.

DarkstarSabre
23-10-2008, 21:51
The Plaguebringer wins vs all enemies except T5, there it is only exactly as good...


One word.

Vehicles.

Considering that Nurgle Lord is still S4 he can only glance the rear armour of most vehicles.

The Undivided Lord is S5. He can penetrate, especially given the way that assaults work against vehicles in 5th edition. The ability of a character to rip through tanks is not something to be underestimated. Sometimes that's all your enemy will let you get to and to be honest, I'd rather not fork out additional points to buy the meltabombs for one anti vehicle attack a round when I can have +D6.

You also need to factor in the fact that you pay for the Mark in addition to the weapon. You don't have to buy a Mark of Chaos Undivided. It's a flat cost weapon right there. Nurgle is expensive. My god is it expensive. It may not seem like much but it's an extra two Marines in a squad somewhere or failing that a couple of power weapons elsewhere.

And with regards to Blissgiver?

They still laugh at the lord. Most things you want to Instantly kill are either very high initiative or very high toughness. In some cases they're both. And S4 doesn't really cut it when you decide to go hunting large, multi-wound targets.

ShadowDeth
23-10-2008, 22:04
If you are worried about rolling a 1 and hurting yourself go play something boring like normal space marines. You are chaos not some pansy!



That's the idea!

And let me add to all you crunching numbers - what if you play the game because you like the imagery surrounding your models?

Real chaos players don't understand math anyways, just KILLING stuff. :evilgrin:

Slaaneshi Ice Cream
23-10-2008, 22:15
I agree about the Khorne Lord with DW being scary. Everyone at my store knows how many attacks he can get. And with him I usually roll a 1, or roll a high number and end up with ~15 attacks.

I also have a Tzeentch lord with DW. If he rolls a 1 he's got a 4+ save. On the other hand, he's taken out an entire bike squad by himself.

I think the Slaaneshi weapon is very situational given how much Eternal Warrior there is atm.

And I wouldn't take a nurgle lord carnifex hunting, but he's great against bikes, take that you damn orcs!

And the undivided weapon is just awesome now that Demonic strength is gone.

Bloodknight
24-10-2008, 01:02
One word.

Vehicles.

One word: combimelta ^^. Since you don't get additional attacks for two weapons anyway there's almost no reason not to buy a combiweapon. Of course you also pay for the mark, but since the mark gives an intrinsic benefit, that's ok. And Nurgle is not that expensive, it's less than a Plague marine.

That said, I played a Nurgle Lord with daemon weapon today and he failed me badly. ;) It was fun to do it again, but next time, I'll just play my warptime sorcerer again.