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Harlequin'sDance
23-10-2008, 04:52
So, this sounds like absolute bs to me because of how its worded, the fact that I haven't heard of it, and the inconsistencies between it being old fluff and mentioning Dark Eldar, but I figured I'd check with you guys before I wrote it off as lame, uninspired fanon (Melkirth? please:rolleyes:).


Melkirth - mentioned in older background material for Warhammer 40,000. Melkirth was a minor chaos god described as "The god of evil, malice, and wanton cruelty and suffering." While Melkirth remains a minor god, it is said that the actions of the mortal races, particularly the Dark Eldar, are causing Melkirth to grow in power until he ultimately becomes the fifth major Chaos God. The daemons of Melkirth are described as being the colour of shadow and able to take on the appearance of any daemon, be it a daemon of Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, or Tzeentch.

From here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(Warhammer)

malika
23-10-2008, 06:00
Haven't heard of that one before, too bad wikipedia doesn't post a source for this claim...

Jos
23-10-2008, 06:51
sounds like BS yes

Ddraiglais
23-10-2008, 12:48
I've seen him mentioned in a few places. I'm not so sure that those people aren't copying from Wikipedia though. There are a bunch of Chaos gods. Melkirth, Malal, three that were supposedly named for real people, Zuvassin, Necoho, etc. I don't know which are fan fiction, part of the background, or lies. I do know the big four and Malal have all existed in GW fluff. Beyond that, I haven't seen any source material for any of the others.

precinctomega
23-10-2008, 13:14
I've never seen Melkirth mentioned anywhere official and no net sources mention a source for the name.

Zuvassin and Necoho were invented to replace Malal after the IP issues threatened the release of the Enemy Within WFRP campaign and never made a second official appearance (and never made a 40k appearance). An'sl, Mo'rcck and Phraz-Etar were mentioned as "lesser powers" (not gods) in the 3rd Edition Chaos Space Marines codex in a humorous gesture to Brian Ansell, Michael Morcock and Frank Frazetta, the writers and artist who were the architects of a new "high fantasy" concept (including the idea of chaos rather than evil) in the 70s.

There are only four and have only ever been four Chaos gods in 40k.

R.

Ddraiglais
23-10-2008, 13:52
If you do a search, Mekirth pops up on several sites. I'm just not sure if people are going off of the Wikipedia article or not. I've never seen anything official either.

I've seen Malal carried over to 40K. Most of it is either hints from GW or fans making their own Chaos armies. I do understand that Malal will never make an official comeback though. There's enough overlap between fantasy and 40K to allow for someone to base an army off of Zuvassin or Necoho if they wanted to. What would a lesser power be? Is it a demigod? Is it a greater daemon? Is it something in between? I know where those names come from. Moorcock is also the guy that GW took the Chaos star from.

Actually, every source I've seen says that there are many Chaos gods/powers. There are only four named Chaos gods in 40K, but that's never been all inclusive.

abasio
23-10-2008, 13:59
How does a chaos power become a god?
There is that chaos star thingy, taken from alchemical roots but GW gave it 40K meaning. It has 4 major points (for the 4 major Chaos Gods?) and 4 minor points. Maybe Melkirth is one of the minor points?

baphomael
23-10-2008, 16:05
How does a chaos power become a god?
There is that chaos star thingy, taken from alchemical roots but GW gave it 40K meaning. It has 4 major points (for the 4 major Chaos Gods?) and 4 minor points. Maybe Melkirth is one of the minor points?

GW ripped the Chaos Star directly from Michael Moorcock's Elric stories.

"Moorcock says [1]

The origin of the Chaos Symbol was me doodling sitting at the kitchen table and wondering what to tell Jim Cawthorn the arms of Chaos looked like. I drew a straightforward geographical quadrant (which often has arrows, too!) N, S, E, W and then added another four directions and that was that eight arrows representing all possibilities, one arrow representing the single, certain road of Law. I have since been told to my face that it is an "ancient symbol of Chaos" and if it is then it confirms a lot of theories about the race mind. As far as I know the symbol, drawn by Jim Cawthorn, first appeared on an Elric cover of Science Fantasy in 1962, then later appeared in his first comic version of Stormbringer done by Savoy"

In WHFB, the arrows correspond to the Winds of Magic.

PondaNagura
23-10-2008, 19:55
actually in older cultures even-numbers were considered bad omens. so a 4, 6, 8 pointed star were considered to be bad-tidings ahead, and later adopted as chaos. where as 3, 5, 7 pointed stars were elements of good tidings. i wish my library hadn't lost that book, it was a great read.

as for melkirth, or whatever i think it's fanfic malarkey...Malal will always be the 5th god of chaos, even if the IP no longer belongs to GW.

Chem-Dog
23-10-2008, 20:25
GW ripped the Chaos Star directly from Michael Moorcock's Elric stories.

Didn't GW give a bunch of money to Moorcock for the use of it?


as for melkirth, or whatever i think it's fanfic malarkey..

I concur.
Melkith is way too close to Malekith (bossman of Dark Elves in WHFB, if you don't know ;)) for my liking, sprinkle in the "actions of the mortal races, particularly the Dark Eldar" bit and you've got a fundamental fluff failure already (Slaanesh's too interested in Eldar shenanigans to let some other power leech off of them). Finally there's the "daemons of Melkirth are described as being the colour of shadow and able to take on the appearance of any daemon, be it a daemon of Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, or Tzeentch" bit which sounds like somebody desperately trying to justify their army into something specific, possibly a 40K version of the Fantasy Dark Elf Slaanesh cult thing.
Hokum.

Grindgodgrind
23-10-2008, 20:34
I don't remember anything about 'Melkith' from 2nd edition. In fact, I've never heard of it.

luchog
24-10-2008, 00:19
There are only four and have only ever been four Chaos gods in 40k.


Actually 5, since Malal was an official Chaos god prior to the IP scuffle that saw him dropped before the Chaos codex was released. He even had his own traitor legion, the Sons of Malice, who were later retconned into Undivided when he was cut.

Harlequin'sDance
24-10-2008, 01:41
Actually 5, since Malal was an official Chaos god prior to the IP scuffle that saw him dropped before the Chaos codex was released. He even had his own traitor legion, the Sons of Malice, who were later retconned into Undivided when he was cut.

First half is true, second half not so much. The Sons of Malice are a relatively new creation, and to my knowledge its not been specified who they follow, though they are an obvious nod towards Malal, much like the Dreadaxe. Unfortunately, given his nature a Legion/Chapter doesn't really work as most of Malal's Doomed ones are solitary, extremely powerful champions. A radical inquisitor or solitary space marine (fallen grey knight or exorcist sounds perfect), makes more sense. Fallen Dark Angels, Dark Eldar, and Eldar Pathfinders would also be interesting options. Having said that, I'll take what I can get when GW brings back old fluff, even if it isn't much.

Also, isn't it pretty well established that there a multitude of Chaos gods and tiny cults dedicated to them, but they pale in comparison to the four biggies, or did I just imagine that.

PondaNagura
24-10-2008, 02:09
sons of malice were in the 3.5 chaos dex, and were more of a shout-out to people who already knew who malal was, but otherwise could fit as just another renegade army for those who didn't.

Rylanor
24-10-2008, 03:24
I think it is interesting that the "Chaos Star" is found in many cultures-- someone mentioned it being an alchemical symbol, and it also appears in Buddhism as the "Eightfold Path." I think it is supposed to represent the eight ways to gain enlightenment through good deeds....

Ddraiglais
24-10-2008, 03:36
First half is true, second half not so much. The Sons of Malice are a relatively new creation, and to my knowledge its not been specified who they follow, though they are an obvious nod towards Malal, much like the Dreadaxe. Unfortunately, given his nature a Legion/Chapter doesn't really work as most of Malal's Doomed ones are solitary, extremely powerful champions. A radical inquisitor or solitary space marine (fallen grey knight or exorcist sounds perfect), makes more sense. Fallen Dark Angels, Dark Eldar, and Eldar Pathfinders would also be interesting options. Having said that, I'll take what I can get when GW brings back old fluff, even if it isn't much.

Also, isn't it pretty well established that there a multitude of Chaos gods and tiny cults dedicated to them, but they pale in comparison to the four biggies, or did I just imagine that.

It's true that Malal's followers work alone, but that wouldn't work on the table top. Maybe the LatD list might work where you could have a CSM leading with traitor guard and mutant followers?

That's what I've always thought. There are the big four and then dozens, hundreds, or more Chaos powers and minor gods.



I think it is interesting that the "Chaos Star" is found in many cultures-- someone mentioned it being an alchemical symbol, and it also appears in Buddhism as the "Eightfold Path." I think it is supposed to represent the eight ways to gain enlightenment through good deeds....

I think it is Moorcock that first associated the Chaos star with Chaos. Before that, it had different meanings in different cultures.

avatar of kaine
24-10-2008, 15:08
i've heard of malal but i've got a question- what was this IP thing everyones talking about?

DapperAnarchist
24-10-2008, 15:14
The guy who wrote the WHFB stuff featuring Malal owned it, not GW. When he left, he took Malal with him.

Didn't crowley and his ilk use the 8 point star as a symbol of chaos or dark magic? I remember looking for a simple version, and found one on his Wiki page.

Seattledv8
24-10-2008, 20:30
intellectual property IP....simular to copyright, legal wording for ...THATS MINE!!!
Crowley and the Golden dawn tended to the Kabala mystic hebrew teachings.
As far as Chaos tied to Fantasy and much of 40ks tone is strongly influenced by Moorcock. And rumor has it he is not very happy with GW.