PDA

View Full Version : What's the official position on Clipping and Sliding?



Condottiere
23-10-2008, 05:51
What's the official position on Clipping and Sliding?

As long as the bases touch after a successful charge, models must be brought into maximum contact?

Devon Harmon
23-10-2008, 06:25
The official position is that it is not in the spirit of the game and that every effort should be made to avoid it. There is a section on clipping that can be found in the appendix to the rules, which is located in the FAQ for the BRB.

It basically says that if you want to play literally by the rules, you have to live with clipping, but that you can agree with your opponent to handle the situation in a gentlemanly manner, i.e. slide one unit sideways to bring more models into the fight.

Braad
23-10-2008, 08:03
I confirm that Devon speaks the truth, though I will add we (my group) always slide to bring the maximum of charging models into contact. It really gives the best game for both. Disagreemant to that is greatly frowned upon, since it is a game that is supposed to be fun.

Lord of Skulls
23-10-2008, 08:34
I'm strongly in favour of sliding, as two units engaged in only a tiny corner looks ridiculous.

The only problem is that, as I play Chaos, the sliding tends to be heavily in my favour, making some players (understandably) skeptical. I do intend to keep sliding units when I start playing my infantry Empire army, though;)

Aurellis
23-10-2008, 08:39
Sliding for maximum model contact is probably the best way forward, it makes the combat faster because 2 models slugging it out isn't very fun and it shows the two forces meeting each other head on.

The Red Scourge
23-10-2008, 08:47
When people whine about "Clip&Slide", its because they tend to see things in a 'rules universe', what they do not understand is that said 'rules universe' is an abstraction of 'real' life combat.

Try imagining two twenty man blocks of infantry 'clipping' on the field only to have two men duke it out – does it work for you?

Other anomalies crop up in the game, like why does charging cavalry line up to the infantry unit, they are moving down and end up galloping off the board instead of further through the enemy line.

theunwantedbeing
23-10-2008, 08:50
Sliding gets a little silly when your sliding anything further than a base per unit.
It just encourages you to clip the enemy unit rather and somewhat punishes you for having a small amount of a unit showing behind an enemy unit when in reality the unit infront should be the one getting charged.

DeathlessDraich
23-10-2008, 09:36
Clipping is necessary and cannot be overcome sometimes even with the suggestions in the Appendix.

C = cavalry, B= building, I = Infantry behind the building

CCCCC
.........
,,,,,,,,BBBBBB
,,,,,,,IIIIIIII

When (C) charges, clipping cannot be avoided.

Another case - multiple combats: not all models will be able to fight and the situation could get worse when casualties are removed.

I can think of 2 more unavoidable clipping cases but that's enough for now.:p

Braad
23-10-2008, 12:17
And because it can be unavoidable, you slide. In this case I would just slide the Infantry unit to the left, since the cavalry cannot slide to the right.
But in most cases I find it best to let the charger slide in front of the defender to reduce the effect of the clipping (because maybe it is more or less intended to, for example, make an overrun into a specific unit).

Mireadur
23-10-2008, 12:37
And because it can be unavoidable, you slide. In this case I would just slide the Infantry unit to the left, since the cavalry cannot slide to the right.
But in most cases I find it best to let the charger slide in front of the defender to reduce the effect of the clipping (because maybe it is more or less intended to, for example, make an overrun into a specific unit).

I dont think the house example is valid for the purposes of this discussion as the infantry unit is likely using the building as coverage from being totally annihilated in the cavalry charge.

A slide there from the infantry getting them exposed to the charge makes certainly no sense in that example.

Atrahasis
23-10-2008, 12:44
Sliding is bad.

Warhammer is a game of movement. Sliding gives the charging unit ~3 times the frontage it actually has, with no drawback, making manoeuvre hideously unimportant.

Colonel Fitzgerald
23-10-2008, 12:52
Doesn't this tend to favour armies with bigger Movement characteristics even more? In our group we allow the units to clip, then slide if both units still stand once the combat is done. The reason for that is this:

In our group, like most groups, we have a great number of very powerful units and very powerful characters fielded. Now, say a unit of Chaos Chosen 5x3 with a Lord in the middle clip charge an enemy unit at 7.5 inches - if you allow them to slide, you just added an extra 3 inches to their charge distance - so the Lord now gets in, as does the unit champ. Now, for my money, any unit being able to that is a bit off, as it artificially inflates the charge distance by effectively giving them an extra free wheel/then moveforwrda/then wheel, but for very powerful units, it increases their overall combat potential by a long way, which is not reflected in the points. Which is a buff they just don't need. So we don't do it for any unit.

We allow the clipped charge to happen, then, if both units still stand, we slide both into alignment to represent the regiments shifting to get to grips with one another. May not be perfect but it's worked so far:angel:

Mireadur
23-10-2008, 13:25
Sliding is bad.

Warhammer is a game of movement. Sliding gives the charging unit ~3 times the frontage it actually has, with no drawback, making manoeuvre hideously unimportant.

Im agreeing with Atrahasis on this one.

The Red Scourge
23-10-2008, 13:53
Doesn't this tend to favour armies with bigger Movement characteristics even more?

No it really just makes the game a bit more simple and more fluid.

Imagine a unit of human swordsmen getting charged on 44' angle by a unit of blood knights. Now one or two blood knights will get to attack, and will lose the combat due to ranks and outnumbering etc. decimating the unit.

In real life, the bloodknights wouldn't suddenly lose their momentum, but instead plow through the swordsmen. (I doubt you guys would even let those knights who hadn't fought on the first turn get the +2 S lance bonus).

Its just one of those oddities that happen in a turnbased gaming format, but it really serves to make the game better :)

mattjgilbert
23-10-2008, 14:27
We allow clipping because the rules deal with it in subsequent rounds of combat and it doesn't (slidding) mean that units suddenly gain more movement in addition to the bonus alignment they already get.

In subsequent rounds of combat, the wining unit/side gets to expand their frontage to bring more models into contact anyway so clipping is not an issue.

So clipping is a part of the game and is fine from my point of view.

Badbones777
23-10-2008, 14:32
We allow clipping because the rules deal with it in subsequent rounds of combat and it doesn't (slidding) mean that units suddenly gain more movement in addition to the bonus alignment they already get.

In subsequent rounds of combat, the wining unit/side gets to expand their frontage to bring more models into contact anyway so clipping is not an issue.

So clipping is a part of the game and is fine from my point of view.

I understand what you are saying here, but it is an issue if expanding ones frontage is at the expense of rank bonus, which allowing sliding maintains-not to mention the fact that clipping in the first place can have a great impact on who wins the first round of a given combat.

kramplarv
23-10-2008, 14:37
clipping > sliding.

in that example regarding the Bloodknights.. why the hell would I want my infantry to slide into combat against those monsters if my enemy can't estimate charges?

if anyone tries to slide me, Ill clip them irl ;)

Colonel Fitzgerald
23-10-2008, 14:41
I understand what you are saying here, but it is an issue if expanding ones frontage is at the expense of rank bonus, which allowing sliding maintains-not to mention the fact that clipping in the first place can have a great impact on who wins the first round of a given combat.


clipping > sliding.

in that example regarding the Bloodknights.. why the hell would I want my infantry to slide into combat against those monsters if my enemy can't estimate charges?

if anyone tries to slide me, Ill clip them irl ;)

Exactly! I think to arbitrarily side units that clipped really ignores the problem with just getting a charg in by a fraction at the full length of the charging unit's move - otherwise, you have, like it or not, extended the charge range of everything in the game by an unknowable factor.

mattjgilbert
23-10-2008, 14:41
I understand what you are saying here, but it is an issue if expanding ones frontage is at the expense of rank bonus, which allowing sliding maintains-not to mention the fact that clipping in the first place can have a great impact on who wins the first round of a given combat.It's not an issue, it's a tactical decision you have to make. You do not have to expand your frontage (either at all or to the full extent). Characters can be brought into play anyway so they don't miss out either.

Badbones777
23-10-2008, 15:49
It's not an issue, it's a tactical decision you have to make. You do not have to expand your frontage (either at all or to the full extent). Characters can be brought into play anyway so they don't miss out either.

Exactly-if the situation on the board means that you clip, and you then lose (or HAD to charge cos your frenzied) then thats your problem-although we can't automatically assume characters will be present-not everyone plays hero hammer-I agree with you-(frenzy aside) it is a tactical decision-and rightly so. But it is an issue, at least in as much as it can make a difference to a combat result, that sliding would negate which is precisely why its a tactical decision.

FigureFour
23-10-2008, 17:11
Sliding is bad.

Warhammer is a game of movement. Sliding gives the charging unit ~3 times the frontage it actually has, with no drawback, making manoeuvre hideously unimportant.

Agreed.

I think sliding in subsequent combat rounds is acceptable, but if you screwed up a charge you should fight out the screwed up charge. To do otherwise makes maneuvering and charging less important then rolling big handfuls of dice.

If I wanted that ****, I'd play a 40k game.

Bac5665
23-10-2008, 17:19
Sliding is illegal, stupid and NOT PART OF THE RULES.

Sliding takes away the grace and precision that make Warhammer great and through it down the toilet. I have never understood the problem with clipping. Warhammer is a game of tactical precision; the movement phase should be the phase that decides the game, almost everything else is rolling dice, and if I wanted dice to be the most important part of the game, I'd play 40k, or better yet, craps. Clipping, overrunning, flanking, tricky reforms, these are what make Warhammer great. These are what allow tactics and generalship to shine through over cheese and luck. Sliding neuters the best part of the game.

Ammanas
23-10-2008, 17:43
If they hit they hit, simple. I've seen a case where someone ignored the fact he would clip another of his units on th charge thereby blocking the charge - was proper cheeky. The principle of a charg though is if you hit the enemy unit you get a free turn into alignment.

BEEGfrog
23-10-2008, 18:03
It depends on the situation...

In the earlier building situation it would be wrong to slide because the target unit, deliberately or not, is hiding behind the building and sliding would affect the tactical situation.

If there is a way that the charging unit can legally move to get more models in combat then it has to move that way, clipping is an unavoidable outcome not a choice. Note the errata has removed the "charging" part of the requirement to maximise models in contact so if more target models can be contacted then they have to be contacted. I.e. if there is a way to move and get 11 models (from either side) in contact instead of just 10 then the move has to result in 11 in contact. If there is a choice of 5/6 or 6/5 the charger can choose, but he can't go 5/5 or 6/4 while there is the option of 11 in total.

However, sliding can be more fun in friendly games, especially when it doesn't significantly affect the tactical situation with regard to terrain, potential evasion/pursuit paths or future charges.

mattjgilbert
23-10-2008, 19:16
Can we drop the digs at 40K? Movement might not be quite as precise but it's still important.

Vishok
23-10-2008, 19:35
You guys should maybe try some Total War. Soldiers will hold formation in real life unless the fracas gets mashed up (covered by the rules in subsequent rounds).

Clipping is dumb. Prepare your charge before you execute it. Bad charges with free moves around obstacles is NOT realistic, no matter what you think. Try getting all those horses to obey you in real life.

Sliding is even more stupid. A unit that charges where only two men get to fight had that coming, and in subsequent rounds it will be addressed as the combat moves forward.

Clipping and Sliding are both illegal, and not anywhere in the spirit of the game. Maybe you like to make things 'easier' for you, but it doesn't work like that on my table or in my group.

FigureFour
23-10-2008, 19:55
Can we drop the digs at 40K? Movement might not be quite as precise but it's still important.

That wasn't really a dig. (Although I did sort of phrase it as such. Sorry for the confusion.)

When I'm not in the mood for a careful game of tactical wheeling and would rather my army run around and blow stuff up without agonizing as much over unit placement, I play 40k.

It's a fine game, but I like Fantasy for different reasons. I don't want to play them the same way.

That being said, if you charge a unit in 40k and only one of your models can make it into base to base, you essentially do the same thing as I'd recomend doing in Fantasy. Fight the combat how you finished your charge, then pile in when it's done.

narrativium
23-10-2008, 19:57
Vishok: if a unit's charge results in only two men getting to fight, that is clipping.

If a unit has to fudge its proximity to terrain and other units in order to charge successfully, that's called a failed charge.

Festus
23-10-2008, 20:21
Hi

Clipping and Sliding are both illegal ...
Sliding may be illegal - clipping certainly is not.

And we are still in a rules discussion here, are we?

Festus

SolarHammer
23-10-2008, 20:26
Sliding in later turns is garbage too. If you win combat, you get your free change formation maneuver to expand frontage.

Lord Inquisitor
23-10-2008, 20:28
Clipping is very bad and wrong, and I wholeheartedly support sliding. It's even worse these days since lapping round is dead.

Personally, I don't get why this is even still possible. The rules certainly have been tightened that it is harder to deliberately clip, but it still happens and it is just absurd. Oh, those ogres are going to just stand there a whole half a centimeter away from the enemy and then run away because they can't kill enough enemy? Bah.

Something ever so simple as a rule where all members of the fighting rank get to fight whether they are touching or not would fix this whole miserable buisness.


Sliding in later turns is garbage too. If you win combat, you get your free change formation maneuver to expand frontage.
Which doesn't help units of only one rank like knights or ogres at all. Which are the units likely to be clipped by big units who DON'T want to get into contact with them!

SolarHammer
23-10-2008, 20:33
Pfft. Like Ogres can win a combat anyways. Lets try and keep the discussion in the realm of the possible please.

Lord Inquisitor
23-10-2008, 21:15
I don't know, a Lord with one of those weapons that hit like a stone thrower can make a decent case for himself...

In any case, the point is that large, expensive models tend to fall foul of the clipping rules and they are precisely the sort of unit that can't take advantage of the reforming rule.

It just annoys me. Yeah, we know that clipping is bad, mkay? We've known it for at least the last fifteen years since I started playing Fantasy. Why isn't there a rule that resolves clipping in a official way? It is so easily solved!

Gazak Blacktoof
23-10-2008, 21:15
Something ever so simple as a rule where all members of the fighting rank get to fight whether they are touching or not would fix this whole miserable buisness.

That's essentially what the sliding rules are but it also accounts for the width of the units- sometimes not everybody can fight even if the units align perfectly. Obviously a rule where the entire rank gets to fight could lead to some nasty situations with abusively wide units.

++++++++++

I find its very rare that a unit gets clipped in our games, if it does we slide one unit or the other.

SolarHammer
23-10-2008, 21:18
It just annoys me. Yeah, we know that clipping is bad, mkay? We've known it for at least the last fifteen years since I started playing Fantasy. Why isn't there a rule that resolves clipping in a official way? It is so easily solved!

Because for skilled players, if a charge is going to fail, it is going to fail by a fraction of an inch.

Because the game is one of maneuver and sliding grossly distorts the potential for maneuver.

If I move my unit in such a way that I don't think you can charge at all, and you make the charge by a fraction of an inch, I would rather you clip me so my maneuver wasn't all for nothing rather than just slide right over so I get no benefit at all.

Lord Inquisitor
23-10-2008, 21:21
That's essentially what the sliding rules are but it also accounts for the width of the units- sometimes not everybody can fight even if the units align perfectly. Obviously a rule where the entire rank gets to fight could lead to some nasty situations with abusively wide units.
Well, it might need a little refinement beyond a one-line off the top of my head. :o

For example, models within their Movement value in inches can fight, or models in contact with a model engaged, or two bases away from an engaged model. Or not more than 5 models not in base-contact can fight.

Or an actual rule for sliding. Just slide, models and terrain permitting, the minimum needed to bring the two units in contact with as many enemy as possible.

I prefer the idea of all font-rank models fighting as it also solves the stupid situation where I charge one enemy unit with two of my units and I still don't get more people fighting than him. :eyebrows:


Because for skilled players, if a charge is going to fail, it is going to fail by a fraction of an inch.

Because the game is one of maneuver and sliding grossly distorts the potential for maneuver.

If I move my unit in such a way that I don't think you can charge at all, and you make the charge by a fraction of an inch, I would rather you clip me so my maneuver wasn't all for nothing rather than just slide right over so I get no benefit at all.
Well, I agree with you about sliding - I would much rather there was a more elegant solution. However, with the rules as written, sliding is generally much more preferable than not doing so. IF that is going to screw up the game, then they can be left, and that does happen - sliding would be nice but since it will disrupt the game at a critical point we leave it and tolerate the clippage.

That said, I disagree about your second point. The game is about maneuvering, true, but a failed charge is bad and a made charge is good. There shouldn't be a "sort-of-charge" where my unit gets almost in contact with your unit and then can't be arsed so they just send Keen Jim to fight for them. Two units contact on the field of battle and it should be bloody combat! Challenges are one thing, but then that's what the challenge rules are for.

Allowing two big units to fight with just two people actually fighting just looks stupid, is deeply unrealistic and often abusive and isn't the way the game is meant to be played. It's just a failing of the rules.

Bac5665
24-10-2008, 00:23
But its not a failing at all. Its a good thing. A good general uses that sort of thing to his or her advantage to win games. We all agree Warhammer is a game, not real combat right? If you want to be realistic, play with uneven point values. If you want to be realistic, don't use characters, or magic, or Lizardmen. Wanting to remove a cool tactic from a fantasy game because it isn't realistic is just stupid. I like chess. I like tactics and strategy. Clipping is part of that, and a good general should be able to take advantage of that 1/2 inch, or prevent his opponent from doing so. Realism is a poor reason to make a rules change in a game like warhammer. And I haven't seen any other reason in this thread. All that remains is that clipping is an advanced tactic that adds a level of complexity to the tactical maneuvering of this game. Warhammer should never be made less tactical. That would only hurt the game.

Lord Inquisitor
24-10-2008, 01:51
Well, we know from the FAQ that the designers DON'T intend for this to be part of the tactics of the game. I disagree that it's a "cool" tactic. It's annoying having your models milimeters away from the enemy but there is NO mechanic for them to get in contact.

As for realism, there has to be some basis in reality, even in a fantasy game. Horses move faster than humans on foot, big swords are more choppy than little swords. Ultimately, it is simply unrealistic that two units in contact aren't going to fight!

There are several reasons this is bad. Firstly, this unrealism is simply annoying. New players that suffer from this tactic are generally put out ("So how do I get my troops in contact?" "You can't, sorry"). That damages the game, I've known people get rather understandably upset about bad clipping. It is a "game tactic." There are plenty of game tactics, and they are universally unsatisfying. 40K has its fair share of these. One example that has been thankfully removed from the ruleset is "tactical casualty removal". By careful removal of certain models, you could prevent certain enemies from attacking. While this required some forethought and intelligence to pull off, it was a game tactic. When you order a unit into close combat this should be a desperate affair! Both sides hacking and slashing.

At the end of the day, the tactics should come from outmaneuvering your opponent, from applying greater force against a portion of his army. Clipping is a method that allows an outclassed unit to avoid being hit (somehow) when charged/charging a physically more superior unit. That's not clever tactics (at least beyond the game-tactic aspect), that's an undesirable situation at best and an exploitable rules loophole at worst. You should be penalised for charging an outclassed unit into combat!

Combat should be determined by bloody conflict as units smash into each other, not two guys at the corner flailing while all the others just wave flags and count how many ranks they have. It's just more fun that way.

Devon Harmon
24-10-2008, 01:58
All that remains is that clipping is an advanced tactic that adds a level of complexity to the tactical maneuvering of this game.

I don't feel that clipping is an "advanced tactic." Especially when the game designers decry clipping and refer to it as "not in the spirit of the game." It is acknowledged that it can happen within the context of the rules, but then they don't provide a rules-based solution to remedy what they see as a problem. If the rules were to try and disallow clipping, perhaps a start would be prohibiting all charges that result in only two models fighting. They could just be treated as a failed charge. The explanation could be that the charges realize that many of them will not get to fight, so they lose their impetus and stop short. Of course there would have to be a list of exceptions: chariots charging monsters, monsters charging single ranked units in the flank, lone characters charging chariots, etc...

I'm curious about viewing clipping as a tactic to be exploited: does this mean that you actively try to set up charges where you will clip with the hopes of disallowing any reciprocial attacks?

Mireadur
24-10-2008, 12:19
Indeed the only issue is that sometimes the free change formation movement which allows to increase front up to 5 is not enough.

Colonel Fitzgerald
24-10-2008, 12:50
This is another subject I've written to them on - I include that text below (it was an email) [I will say now that I mean NO OFFENCE to the Direwolf Council, without whom it would seem, we'd have no rules]

Dear Games Workshop,

My apologies for raising a complaint but I can't see any way around it. The American website template that you are now using for a site is a major problem. It is not user friendly at all, relies much too much on the left nav, looks as though no work has gone into it whatever and, worse still, even fails as a web-shop. You can't find anything, even after 30 minutes searching, you can't be bothered looking after four or five attempts. I for one will be buying my miniatures elsewhere - most likely from independent stockists or on the second hand market - as the site is terrible.

Hopefully it's just a temporary measure?

Whilst I'm complaining, what exactly do game designers do? It's not writing errata & FAQ guides, that's for sure. Relying on the Direwolf Council for rules clarification seems to have missed enormous swathes of the everyday scenarios out. Worse still, the rulebook just feels incomplete. What IS the position on clipping, for instance? Why DOES the rulebook refer those wanting to see the Skirmisher movement rules to Independent Characters on Foot, then from Independent Characters on Foot back to the Skirmishers section to explain how they (ICs) move?

I am a little disappointed to say the least. Gamers are having to increasingly rely on their own, partisan interpretation of an incomplete rule-set, calling into evidence previous editions of the rules in order to help them to decide.

GavT
24-10-2008, 13:34
If the rules were to try and disallow clipping, perhaps a start would be prohibiting all charges that result in only two models fighting. They could just be treated as a failed charge.

Except when a unit of one model charges another unit of one model, of course. ;) The problem with anti-clipping rules like this is that they are retro-active - often the models need to be moved first to see what is going to happen. If the charge were then failed you get into a whole routine about moving the unit back to its initial charge point and starting over. TYhe alternative is to use some kind of surrogate means for determining where the charge will end up before moving any models. It's all a bit clumsy and/ or fiddly really.

With the rule introduced to maximise combatants on both sides, 'tactical' clipping is nowhere near the issue it used to be. It takes a very keen eye and cunning general to set up a clipping charge on purpose, notwithstanding that the other unit can also move and therefore mess up any pre-calculated judgement by the opponent. If the defending unit has been positioned in such a way that the charger can only clip (to the charger's disadvantage) then it is up to the charging player to decide whether or not to declare the charge and take the consequences. If the charging unit has been placed in such a way that it can charge at an advantage from clipping and the defending unit does nothing about it, I see that as part of the skill of movement and an error by the defending player.

Far more likely is the accidental clip, through the distance of the charge, intervening units and terrain, or a combination of these factors. In those circumstances, if both players agree to slide, that's their decision. However, if one player is uncomfortable with sliding, then the combat should be resolved as it is. There's no way to legislate without creating an artifical line somewhere; is it clipping to only engage two or three models out of a ten-wide rank of archers? Is it clipping for a charging lone monster to only be able to contact one or two models?

The rules are clear that as long as models are maximised the charge is legal. Anything else must come down to convention/ house rule agreed between players. If players do agree to slide or clip in one situation they should be willing to be consistent throughout the rest of their game(s) to avoid any exploitation of sportsmanship.

GAV

Condottiere
24-10-2008, 13:51
Far more likely is the accidental clip, through the distance of the charge, intervening units and terrain, or a combination of these factors.

There are no "accidental" clips in my group, which is probably the result of jockeying the units around to avoid charges, and yet be able to charge the following round.

However, we follow the rules of consistently sliding clipping units to maximize contact. This is one area in which Orcs with Waaagh are actually at an advantage.

DeathlessDraich
24-10-2008, 14:37
With the rule introduced to maximise combatants on both sides, 'tactical' clipping is nowhere near the issue it used to be. It takes a very keen eye and cunning general to set up a clipping charge on purpose, notwithstanding that the other unit can also move and therefore mess up any pre-calculated judgement by the opponent. GAV


1) No, it is *not* difficult to set up tactical clipping by units that might be charged. The resulting clipping might be 'out' by a model or 2 but the charging unit will still clip. - a matter of 1" or so in estimation.

2) Clipping is sometimes unavoidable - When nearby units (not involved in the charge) or terrain *do not permit space*.
In fact in cases like this the charging unit may have only just sufficient space to touch a corner model i.e. *the charge nearly failed.*

To transform an 'almost failed charge' into an alignment that maximises the advantage of the charger would be unfair especially if the charged units (and units within its vicinity) have been arranged to reduce or deny sufficient space for the charger.

GavT
24-10-2008, 16:24
1) No, it is *not* difficult to set up tactical clipping by units that might be charged. The resulting clipping might be 'out' by a model or 2 but the charging unit will still clip. - a matter of 1" or so in estimation.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here and I think we're both on the same side of this debate... If a player deliberately positions a unit in such a way that it is likely the charger will only clip - by range or intervening units/ terrain - then the decision comes down to the charging player whether to go for it or not. I don't see this as any different from the 'zone of uncertainty' one can use to bait a unit forward into a failed charge, coming down to the accuracy of the players' guesswork. Bearing in mind that units will only clip when at an angle to each other, the defending player is having to make a close judgement on a wheeled charge. I don't see this as a skill any different from any other of the range judgements players make constantly throughout the game.

The tactic is only useful as part of a wider plan to negate the charge of an enemy - simply delaying the enemy by a turn until they move into a more favourable position is only successful if you then exploit the opportunity to rain down missile fire, move other units into counter-charge positions and so on (or it's the last turn of the game!). If the charging player is silly enough to declare a charge that will obviously leave them at a disadvantage, and then gets beaten in the ensuing combat, more fool them.


2) Clipping is sometimes unavoidable - When nearby units (not involved in the charge) or terrain *do not permit space*.
In fact in cases like this the charging unit may have only just sufficient space to touch a corner model i.e. *the charge nearly failed.*

To transform an 'almost failed charge' into an alignment that maximises the advantage of the charger would be unfair especially if the charged units (and units within its vicinity) have been arranged to reduce or deny sufficient space for the charger.

I agree, that's why I think sliding should only be done by consensus if both players want to roll more dice and hack it out like gentlemen :D

GAV

Mireadur
24-10-2008, 17:10
I agree too, Gav's speaking wisdom in this post guys. Those disagreeing should read carefully both posts and let their brains be filled with the info.

Lord Inquisitor
24-10-2008, 17:21
Except when a unit of one model charges another unit of one model, of course. ;) The problem with anti-clipping rules like this is that they are retro-active - often the models need to be moved first to see what is going to happen. If the charge were then failed you get into a whole routine about moving the unit back to its initial charge point and starting over. TYhe alternative is to use some kind of surrogate means for determining where the charge will end up before moving any models. It's all a bit clumsy and/ or fiddly really.
What I don't get is why there can't be a rule similar to 40K where all models within a reasonable range of the combat can fight. For Fantasy, and at it's most simple, just allow the full front ranks to fight (representing them "lapping round"). Obviously it may need to be slighty more complicated to prevent long thin lines being silly, but - like the rules for fighting in buildings - it is a reasonable abstraction, and doesn't require any fudging of battlelines.

As I said before, another oddity is where two units charge in against a single unit, and unless there is a flank/rear combo going on, you can't bring those superior numbers to bear.

So do you really think that clipping is an acceptable strategy? Good generalship as opposed to exploiting the ruleset? Should it really be possible in an ideal ruleset?

FigureFour
24-10-2008, 17:25
What I don't get is why there can't be a rule similar to 40K where all models within a reasonable range of the combat can fight.
They have one, they just have a different "reasonable range".


For Fantasy, and at it's most simple, just allow the full front ranks to fight (representing them "lapping round"). Obviously it may need to be slighty more complicated to prevent long thin lines being silly, but - like the rules for fighting in buildings - it is a reasonable abstraction, and doesn't require any fudging of battlelines.
This doesn't even come close to making sense. What about how in your clipping situation you'd let a model in the front rank three models away from combat fight but not models in the second rank who are only one model away? Are you going to propose that THEY are now within a reasonable range?

Lord Inquisitor
24-10-2008, 17:36
They have one, they just have a different "reasonable range".
Which, in the case of clipping, is unreasonable and undesirable.


This doesn't even come close to making sense. What about how in your clipping situation you'd let a model in the front rank three models away from combat fight but not models in the second rank who are only one model away? Are you going to propose that THEY are now within a reasonable range?
The difference is that they're actually behind other friendly troops. A model next to an engaged model has nothing but a few milimeters of empty ground between him and the enemy in front of him. A model behind an engaged model is physically blocked. Sure "just allow all models in the front rank to fight" is a bit simplistic, it would probably need to be more thought out than that. But it'd be a start.

The old lapping round rules helped mitigate the clipping situation somewhat. I understand why they're gone (they were a pain!), but lacking any kind of mechanic for out-of-contact models to become engaged is just frustrating.

FigureFour
24-10-2008, 18:28
The difference is that they're actually behind other friendly troops. A model next to an engaged model has nothing but a few milimeters of empty ground between him and the enemy in front of him. A model behind an engaged model is physically blocked.
Only if he decides to strike over the other guys head. If he strikes over the open space beside him, he's still closer then the guy at the other end of the front rank.


Sure "just allow all models in the front rank to fight" is a bit simplistic, it would probably need to be more thought out than that. But it'd be a start.
I think it makes perfect sense that if two models bases are touching then they are close enough to fight and I don't see a reason to allow models who for some reason couldn't make it into combat range to fight the combat. Widening the range doesn't eliminate the problem.

Edit: Furthermore, what's so special about getting one model into combat that means we need to get all of them into combat. Just because I made it CLOSE to a unit doesn't mean I get to fight them. If my charge stops a quarter inch away during a charge should I just move it the extra quarter inch because it's fun to have a big brawl? Why is a clipping situation different?

Helveticus
24-10-2008, 19:03
Personally I'd give the unit behind the building a choice.. slide out, or eat a flank charge. No Cav unit in their right mind would run off to the side, and wait a turn when they could just wheel into the unit's flank and run down the side of the building.

Lord Inquisitor
24-10-2008, 19:54
Only if he decides to strike over the other guys head. If he strikes over the open space beside him, he's still closer then the guy at the other end of the front rank.
You don't get what I'm saying. The idea is that units remain in formation, except that they will 'lap round.'

Two units that hit are going to smash into each other. The rear ranks are going to stay behind (pushing forward) but models caught out to the side are going to get stuck in!


I think it makes perfect sense that if two models bases are touching then they are close enough to fight and I don't see a reason to allow models who for some reason couldn't make it into combat range to fight the combat. Widening the range doesn't eliminate the problem.
The point is that they didn't make it into combat because of the vagaries of the rules. Even if they wait until their next movement phase, why can't they make that fraction-of-an-inch further to contact the enemy?

Yes it's a game where units are ranked up on bases. But this is meant to simulate combat! Groups of soldiers that clash on the battlefield are fighting desperate combat, not standing in strict ranks making faces at the enemy because they've ended up in combat in such a way that the two units don't line up perfectly.


Edit: Furthermore, what's so special about getting one model into combat that means we need to get all of them into combat. Just because I made it CLOSE to a unit doesn't mean I get to fight them. If my charge stops a quarter inch away during a charge should I just move it the extra quarter inch because it's fun to have a big brawl? Why is a clipping situation different?
There are several reasons why clipping is different.

Firstly, and most importantly, a failed charge doesn't represent the unit stopping 1/4" away. Indeed, that doesn't happen in the game. Either the charge is successful, or it isn't. The units are in combat, or they aren't. If the charge is failed, even by the smallest amount, then the chargers realise its too far and give up - usually ending up at least 4" away from the enemy.

From a game perspective, the same is true. Either you have judged the distance correctly, or you haven't. Even by a milimeter - if you make it then your unit charges in! Under most circumstances that's how it works. Either the charge is failed or it is made - there shouldn't be a "sort-of-charge".

Note that when a unit charges at an angle, that's exactly how things go. If I charge you, if I'm out, that's a failed charge, if I'm in then I move to contact and get a free wheel in, which often can take some models over their charge movement. What? Where did this extra movement come from? And why can't you get this extra movment when you fail the charge (in which case you'd make the charge!)? Simple: providing they carry through the charge (and don't give up!) then they're going to slam into one another, and not going to stop until they're all in combat. It'd be daft if only some and not others got into combat.

If you make the charge, the units are in combat, and if you don't they give up and fail the charge and don't get into combat at all. The free-wheel-in is a great mechanic to ensure this under most circumstances (and as Gav says, actually deliberatly clipping is very hard). It's just annoying there isn't a similar mechanic for a "free wheel in" to get clipped units into proper contact.

Lastly, even if you fail your charge you'll probably be able to charge in next turn. Why the heck can't that Dragon Ogre stuck out on the end move into combat at least when it comes to his Movement phase?

FigureFour
24-10-2008, 21:41
You don't get what I'm saying. The idea is that units remain in formation, except that they will 'lap round.'
Don't worry, I get it.


Two units that hit are going to smash into each other. The rear ranks are going to stay behind (pushing forward) but models caught out to the side are going to get stuck in!


The point is that they didn't make it into combat because of the vagaries of the rules. Even if they wait until their next movement phase, why can't they make that fraction-of-an-inch further to contact the enemy?
The vagaries of the rules have picked an arbitrary snapshot in time at which to work out combat. The charging unit in my example also didn't make it because of the vagaries of the rules; in reality they would have continued to charge the remaining distance instead of deciding "We aren't going to make it within an arbitrarily alloted time period! We'd better stop here!"

I think the solution to keep the game rules intact and still let that unit finish their charge is to do something like, allow a unit to slide or expand frontage at the end of combat even if they lost, as long as they pass their break test.

It punishes the charging player for making a bad charge, or rewards the defending player for positioning his unit carefully, but solves the "why are they just standing there" problem by letting them finish up their move after the end of that arbitrary time period.


Yes it's a game where units are ranked up on bases. But this is meant to simulate combat! Groups of soldiers that clash on the battlefield are fighting desperate combat, not standing in strict ranks making faces at the enemy because they've ended up in combat in such a way that the two units don't line up perfectly.
Like I said, combat is resolved at an arbitrary slice of time. The problem isn't fighting a clipped combat, clipped combats happen and you can bet those units would start fighting then, the problem is that the units stop and stand around dumbly. We just need a little more mobility for units locked in combat.



Firstly, and most importantly, a failed charge doesn't represent the unit stopping 1/4" away. Indeed, that doesn't happen in the game. Either the charge is successful, or it isn't. The units are in combat, or they aren't. If the charge is failed, even by the smallest amount, then the chargers realise its too far and give up - usually ending up at least 4" away from the enemy.
I've already explained why this doesn't make sense. No unit of charging cavalry would say "WAIT! Those men are THREE FEET further back then we thought they were! Better call off this charge!"


From a game perspective, the same is true. Either you have judged the distance correctly, or you haven't. Even by a milimeter - if you make it then your unit charges in! Under most circumstances that's how it works. Either the charge is failed or it is made - there shouldn't be a "sort-of-charge".
It isn't a "sort of charge" it's a successful charge that fails to bring the number of models into combat that you wanted. It is in all respects a legal completed charge, it just didn't go the way you thought it would.


Lastly, even if you fail your charge you'll probably be able to charge in next turn.
Not bloody likely. When you fail your charge you'll probably end up being charged.


Why the heck can't that Dragon Ogre stuck out on the end move into combat at least when it comes to his Movement phase?
I think he should be able too, in the NEXT combat phase.

Gorbad Ironclaw
25-10-2008, 08:01
So do you really think that clipping is an acceptable strategy? Good generalship as opposed to exploiting the ruleset? Should it really be possible in an ideal ruleset?

You don't think manoeuvring into a position that's favourable to you is good generalship?

Because that is usually what happens. You very rarely have to charge so if you charge into a position that's at a disadvantage to you, well then it's your own fault. And you rarely get to be charged without having had at least some chance of reacting to it. Whatever that be fleeing the charge, manoeuvring in your previous movement phase or whatever.

If someone set's up a position where they have a strong advantage in the ensuring combat and you did nothing to counter it then yes, that is good generalship.

IMO the whole sliding/letting everyone attack just takes away from the manoeuvring aspect of the game as it reduce/remove the reward/punishment for good or bad manoeuvring in relation to charges.

Not to say that you can't have a system where everybody gets to attack that works fine. 40k manages it quite nicely, it's just a very different system and should be part of an overall system change, not just tacked on.

Gazak Blacktoof
25-10-2008, 09:21
Clipping is analogous to "sniping" in 6th edition warhammer and 4th edition 40K. Sniping uses units or terrain to restrict LOS to a specific target that you wouldn't normally be able to target with a less restricted vision.

IMO both are unwanted side effects of the general rule set and not something that should be encouraged as they are unrealistic.

Citizen
25-10-2008, 09:27
Whenever I play I tend to use sliding. I find it much more interesting for a whole unit to be fighting another whole unit, rather than the guy on the end fighting the other guy on the end.

I think it also makes sense if you're thinking of Warhammer in real life terms, although this doesn't justify rules, I know.

kramplarv
25-10-2008, 10:20
still, it depends on the situation. If my infary are hidden behind the house, i placed them there to make sure that the ubercavalry of chargness wouldnt get all his attacks.

and having all guys in front rank fight is absolute madness.

then i will put my 10 black knights+vampirelord+vampire+bsb in one long line. and charge the first enemy I can, and then rock the boat.

Condottiere
25-10-2008, 10:34
That's why we deploy cannons on the flanks.