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-Grimgorironhide-
23-10-2008, 06:13
I have written a full text of rule changes and point adjustments to help bring daemons back in line with the other books. Any playtesting is welcomed for my gaming club really want daemons to be more balanced and I choose to right some unofficial rules for the daemon players and also I will soon write some for O&G's and VC just so we can have more balance, tactics and flexibility with our games. Alot of idea's founded and used by user Gondarion from warhammer.org.

Army Wide rule Daemonic
-The same except the ward save cannot be used against magical attacks unless the unit is within 12" of the general.
Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes have true ward saves.

(NEW RULE) Armies of the gods
-If your general is a daemon of one of the four gods then you must include 1+ units of his/her god per 1000pts from the core section.

(NEW RULE) Chaos animosity
-If a god specific unit or character in your army is with 6" of a different god unit or character on your side at the start of the movement phase, both units must take a leadership test. The general's Leadership can only be used on the units that are of his specific god and within 12" of him. If either fail the one's who did treat that unit as an enemy unit and must charge it. Combats of this sort are done by the daemon player only for they are both his/her units. If the units remain in combat in the next players turn they can roll one leadership test again. If passed the units are detached from each other and are moved 2'' away from each other.
Undivided units are unaffected by this rule.

All other special rules are unchanged.

Lore of Slaanesh is unchanged

Lore of Nurgle has the following changes:
-Miasma of Pestilence increased to 5+ to cast.
- Rancid Visitation targets the average T value of the unit, not the lowest, increased to 9+ to cast.

Lore of Tzeentch has the following changes:
-Tzeentch's Firestorm makes 1 horror for every unsaved wound, reduced in cost to 11+.
- Bolt of Change increased to 13+ to cast.

CHARACTERS
LORDS
Bloodthirster

Special Rules: as is
Stats: as is
Equipment/options: as is
Cost: 475

Lord of Change

Special Rules: as is
Stats: as is
Equipment/options: as is
Cost: as is

Keeper of Secrets

Special Rules: as is
Stats: as is
Equipment/options: as is
Cost: as is

Great Unclean One

Special Rules: as is
Stats: as is
Equipment/options: as is
Cost: as is

Daemon Prince

Special Rules:Terror, Daemonic
Stats: as is
Equipment/options: Has his gifts allowance increased to 100pts and for god specific up to 75pts.
Cost: 275



HEROES

Herald of Khorne

Special Rules: as is
Stats: as is
Equipment/options: as is
Cost: 115

Herald of Tzeentch

Special Rules: as is
Stats: as is
Equipment/options: as is
Cost: as is

Herald of Nurgle

Special Rules: as is
Stats: as is
Equipment/options: as is
Cost: 125

Herald of Slaanesh

Special Rules: as is
Stats: as is except is Ws 6
Equipment/options: as is
Cost: as is


CORE

Bloodletters

Special Rules: Devotees of Khorne, otherwise as is
Stats: as is
Equipment: Scaly Skin (5+), otherwise as is
Command: as is
Cost: 11

Devotees of Khorne: Bloodletters may re-roll to wound in any round of combat.

Plaguebearers

Special Rules: as is
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Command: as is
Cost: 12

Daemonettes

Special Rules: Supernatural Allure, otherwise as is
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Command: as is
Cost: 12

Supernatural Allure: Enemy units in combat with daemonettes must at the pass a LD test on 2d6 before the first round of combat or have their WS halved, rounding up, for the duration of that round.

Furies

Special Rules: as is
Stats: as except leadership 5
Equipment: as is
Command: as is
Cost: 10

Horrors

Special Rules: as is
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Command: as is
Cost: 10

SPECIAL

Flesh Hounds

Special Rules: as is
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Command: as is
Cost: as is

Screamers

Special Rules: as is
Stats: as is except it has 2 Wounds.
Equipment: as is
Command: as is
Cost: 31

Nurglings

Special Rules: as is
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Command: as is
Cost: 30

Seekers

Special Rules: as is
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Command: as is
Cost: 20

RARE

Flamers

Special Rules: May not stand and shoot, otherwise as is
Stats: as is except has 1 Attack and Strength 4.
Equipment: as is
Command: as is
Cost: 30

Fiends

Special Rules: as is
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Command: as is
Cost: 50

Beasts

Special Rules: as is
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Command: as is
Cost: 90

Bloodcrushers

Special Rules: as is
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Command: as is
Cost: 65

DAEMONIC GIFTS

AMENDED--Standard of Chaos Glory 90 points: Every friendly daemonic within 12" gains +1CR.

AMENDED--Great Icon of Despair 75 points: Every enemy unit within 12" suffers -1 to their LD value

AMENDED--Standard of Sundering 75 points: Before the game starts and after spells are rolled, nominate a lore of magic. All spells cast from that lore suffer -2 to their casting rolls.

AMENDED--Noxious Vapors 40 points: all enemy models in base to base contact have their WS halved, rounding up.

AMENDED--Flames of Tzeentch 35 points: gains a missile weapon which may fire d6 S4 flaming, magical attacks up to18" at the same target. May not stand and shoot with this weapon.

AMENDED--Master of Sorcery 25 points: if taken by a Lord of Change or Daemon Prince, that model knows all the spells from either the Lore of Tzeentch or any of the basic 8 lores of magic. If taken by a Tzeertch herald, that model knows all the spells from the lore of Tzeentch.

Siren Song increased in cost by 35.

Dark Magister increased in cost by 30.

NEW GIFT--Diabolic Splendor 10 points: May be taken by any daemonic character. If taken on a Greater Daemon or Daemon Prince, this gift provides +1LD. If taken by a herald, it makes the herald's daemonic save a true ward.

Obsidian Armour increased in cost to 55.

Trappings of Nurgle increased to 55.

SPECIAL CHARACTERS
LORDS

Skarbrand

Special Rules: as is
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: as is

Kairos Fateweaver

Special Rules:
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: 685

Ku,Gath

Special Rules: as is
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: as is


HEROES

Skulltaker

Special Rules: as is
Stats: as is except Movement 5
Equipment/options: as is
Cost: 165

The Blue Scribes

Special Rules: as is
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: 110

Epidemius

Special Rules: as is
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: 160

The Masque

Special Rules: as is
Stats: as is
Equipment: as is
Cost: 115

What do you think?

theunwantedbeing
23-10-2008, 09:57
Okay.....
Not sure you quite get the whole idea of the problems of the daemon lsit really.

The chaos animosity doesnt do much, most of the time your units wont be in a position to charge another freindly unit.

You've now made the Daemon prince with Dark insanity possible...something the developers tried to avoid. Not to mention a flying daemon prince with the balesword....
Keeping the god specific stuff to 50pts and the total limit to 100 seems more appropriate.

Not sure what you feel is wrong with the daemonic infantry that you felt the need to make them better?
Bloodletters are better, armour plus re-roll to wound is powerful, especially against tougher foes.
Horrors...why 10pts? Surely they're good enough already? You can make some really noticable savings on armies with a lot of horrors.
Similarly furies....10pts??? sheesh....they're fine as they are.

You seem to have missed out on flesh hounds being rather too good.

You've removed the combat ability of flamers though, and given them a bit of a nerf shootingwise, not sure that's entirely warranted...now they're an entirely shooting unit.

Screamers are now a lot better, very tricky to get rid of now.

I dont really agree with any of those changes to be honest.
I sortof gaveup at the items as I feel you've got completely the wrong idea about it all and not really thought it through how the items interact with those who can take it.

I was more expecting something along these lines really....

-Flesh hounds/Flamers reduced to 1 wound each
-Daemon prince allowed 100points of gifts (50 of a god), may be marked of a specific god for 20points
-Noxious Vapours 30pts
-Master of sorcery (changed to include knowing all the tzeentch spells if thats the chosen lore)

As those seem to be more in line with what people's problems with the list are.

Von Wibble
26-10-2008, 12:09
For the most part I agree with theunwantedbeing. Where I disagree I will mention...

The core choices are fine - though bloodletters need a small boost (every time I have faced them they are easily beaten). Keep the scaly skin otherwise stick with the AB. Horrors, Furies and Daemonettes are all fine.

Flesh Hounds should be 1 wound, but also have a rule improving mobility - they are a hunting pack not a rigid cavalry unit! Fast cavalry and/or move through terrain would do the trick. It would also justify keeping them at 35pts.

Flamers - imo should have range of shooting cut to 12" and no stand and shoot. Cut cost to 30pts. No need for combat nerfs.

Daemon Prince, Master of sorcery, screamers, ward save, heralds, lore of nurgle, bolt of change - agree with theunwantedbenig

Tzeentch's firestorm - agree with this boost, but not the power level.

Noxious vapours - reduces all enemy models in BtB to Initiative 1. This means chargers and ASF still get to attack but others go last. Reduce to 20pts.

Animosity - I think it should be in but not so crippling. A -1 to Ld if an daemon unit of a different god is within 6" is OK - enough to hurt if you mix too much but not so crippling if you just do a little bit! Also daemon lord choices immune to this.

Armies of the gods - no need really. If te units used to min-max the list are put o the appropriate power level then there should be no problems mixing gods. Especially with animosity on top.

Palanquin - makes the model a large target, gives him +1 T. Makes him targettable but not easily killed as compensation.

Ward.
26-10-2008, 12:17
Simply having ward saves negated by magical attacks would radically re balance the army (crushers wouldn't seem so crappy compared to flesh hounds for instance).

Not only would you see more units being taken and save yourself a few paragraphs of text but daemons could still be a competitive army.