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Hoshi No Koe
17-11-2005, 11:50
These are some rules I've written up. I was inspired by a discussion in 40k general and by the rumour that GW was going to release high detail rules at some point.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16750&page=2

This is my version of it. I want to add some more and I'll try to keep them in this same format of optional rules that can be added at will. I'd like to see some rules where grenades can do damage again so I'll be adding a version of those soon.
The rules need playtesting and I'm looking for more suggestions about what people would like to see to add some realism to the 40k ruleset without altering it at the core.

40k High detail rules

Movement:

Forced march (addition):
Infantry units may move a second time in the shooting phase instead of firing their weapons. The unit must be at least 18” from an enemy unit and may not end their movement within 18” of any enemy unit. If the unit is forced to take a Ld test due to shooting (pinning or morale check), the unit is must test with a -1 ld modifier (the unit is rushing into position and is not prepared for incoming enemy fire).
A unit may never charge after it has made a forced march.
Fleet moves or any special movement may not be used in conjunction with any special movement (jump infantry, beasts, bikes and jet packs)

Hiding (addition):
Infantry units may go into hiding if they do not move or shoot in their own turn and if the whole unit is in cover. The unit counts as being concealed per the scenario special rule in the rule book. Any movement or shooting removes their concealed status. Units may not go into hiding if there's an enemy model within 12".

Going prone:
Infantry units may go prone when ending their movement phase in the open.
Prone units may not use heavy weapons but gain a 6+ cover save.
Units may also go prone as a response to enemy shooting when fired upon and the unit majority is in the open. The unit must immediately pass a Ld to represent the squad leader noticing the incoming fire in time and giving the order.
In the unit's movement phase the unit may choose to remain prone or take a ld test to stand up in their movement phase and can act normally afterwards. The squad leader needs to convince his troops they can get up and move out once more. If they fail their Ld test, the unit remains prone and may not move this turn but may shoot normally with the exception of heavy weapons.
Units that are pinned while the majority is in open terrain go prone automatically.
Fearless units may not go prone at all. Special rules like Ork mob rules may not be used to let the squad go prone voluntarily. It may be used to get the boyz going again though.
Note that prone units that are charged do not count as being in cover. They will automatically stand up and fight normally.

Shooting:

Pinning (amendment):
A unit that suffers 25% casualties from pinning weapons receives a -1 ld test to its pinning check. This is cumulative to other modifiers that affect pinning tests. (like ordnance or being under half strength).
Fearless units must still check for pinning but if they fail the Ld test they must move as if they were in difficult terrain even if they are in the open. They are otherwise unaffected. Note that the unit strength is counted at the beginning of the shooting phase so a unit of 8 marines that was reduced to 4 from other units shooting at them would still need to suffer 2 casualties from pinning weapons in order to suffer the -1 ld.
Units pinnend in the open automatically go prone.
Example: A firewarrior unit with carbines and rifles shoot at a unit of 5 marines. Three marines are killed. Two kills were done by carbines, so the marines must pass their pinning test at -1. If the marines at suffered only one kill from carbines and 2 kills from rifles, they’d still have to pass a pinning test but would not suffer the -1 Ld penalty.

Specialized weaponry (addition):
An infantry unit that is firing at another infantry unit may choose to have one model in the unit shoot at the closest vehicle, Monstrous creature or unit with a majority toughness of 6 or more. The unit may only do this if it hasn’t moved in the movement phase and the model that is engaging another target as a weapon of S6 or more. The model has to pass a ld test in order to split his fire just as if he was taking a target priority check.

Vehicles splitting fire (addition):
A vehicle may shoot up to one defensive weapon at a different target than his main weaponry. The unit must be within 12” and within the defensive weapon’s individual firing arc. If a vehicle only has defensive weaponry, it must declare what its main target is before assigning other weapons to another unit.

Overwatch (addition):
A unit or vehicle may go into overwatch if it doesn’t move or shoot in its own turn. A unit is also only allowed to go into overwatch if it hasn't got an eligible target in its own shooting phase. A unit that is on overwatch can only cover a fixed firing arc of 90 degrees which is declared when the unit is put on overwatch. A unit that is on overwatch may only fire at a range of up to 24”. A unit that is on overwatch shoots simultaneously with the first enemy unit that moves in its range. The unit on overwatch may shoot normally within the restrictions put on units on overwatch.
A unit on overwatch that is fired upon by an enemy unit from outside its fixed fire arc and suffers at least one casualty , must pass a ld test or lose its overwatch status.
Any morale check or pinning tests required are taken by both sides.

Grenades:
Grenades are thrown when charging. Grenades are used in the first round of combat when the unit is assaulting and are worked out at Initiative 8.
Roll a D6 for every model throwing a grenade.
No. of grenades and required score to hit
1-5 6+
6-10 5+
11-15 4+
16+ 3+

Frag grenades: S2 Ap-
Plasma grenades: S3 Ap-

AP System:
Strength and armour saves(amendment):
Models hit by a weapon that has more strength over the required strength to wound on 2+ must re-roll any armour saves they are required to take. Invulnerable save are not affected.
This applies to shooting as well as in combat.
Example: A space marine is hit by an autocannon. The required Strength to wound a marine on 2+ is S6. The autocannon has S7 which is more than the required S6 to wound on 2+. The marine passes his 3+ armour save but due to the impact power of the weapon is required to re-roll his armour save.
(This rule was designed to represent the power of the impact of a weapon even if it doesn’t pass through the armour. In fluff, autocannons are quite dangerous to marines so it should affect them somehow. And it was bugging me that an autocannon cut through rhinos and light vehicles like a hot knife through butter but marines shrugged them off easily. Other examples are missile launchers against terminators or Multi-lasers against storm troopers.)

Special weaponry (amendments):

Shotguns:
Shotguns that fire within 6" of an ennemy model are assult 1 S5 Ap6.

Sniper rifles:
Instead of always wounding on a 4+ Sniper rifles hit with a strength value equal to their to hit roll +1. They still hit on 2+. For example a space marine scout hits an ork with a roll to hit of 5. The to wound roll is resolved with S5, wounding the Ork on a 3+. If he had rolled a 2 to hit , he'd be wounding on 5+.
Armour penetration rolls are still only 2d6.

colhodg
17-11-2005, 12:44
I really like your suggestions and the way you've tried to keep them simple, so a bit of feedback:

Forced March - Great, use it already.
Hiding - Ditto but not within 12" of enemy unless unit has Scout ability.
Shooting mods - Fine, but as I like the lack of modifiers and greater range we allow Firing At Range instead: Extend range by 1/3 but reroll successful hits, cannot assault.
Split fire - Good sensible way of dealing with this problem
Overwatch - Only one not too keen on but I never liked overwatch - also puts a massive bullseye on the overwatching unit...
AP System - looks a bit confusing but actually makes a lot of sense and would do a hell of a lot to reduce bitching about 3+ saves this is a cool idea tho I think cover saves should be exempt.

Other Suggestions, (or guesses at what's in Imperial Armour 4)

Prone (Movement)
Any unit may elect to go prone at the beginning of it's movement. Place the models on their front - they gain a 6+ cover save or +1 to save if in cover. Must move as if in rough terrain or 1D6 if prone in rough terrain.

Barrage (Shooting)
A unit of three or more blast templates firing as a barrage may choose to fire as a single Ordenance barrage instead with the same weapon stats but ordenance rules.

Detatchment Command (Scenario Rule)
A Detatchment that drops to less than 50% of it's starting number of units (ie not desroyed or fleeing) must Pass a Detachment Command check or withdraw, conceding a Minor Victory to the opponent!

McMullet
17-11-2005, 14:18
Looks good, though I'm not sure about marching. I was annoyed that they removed it from the game, but putting it back in IMHO makes Fleeting far less good. Unless you're planning to assault, fleeting is just going to be a slower version of marching a lot of the time. Other than that, I like it.

Hoshi No Koe
17-11-2005, 16:09
Thanks for the feedback.

@ Colhodg
Hiding: great suggestion, I hadn't thought about it. I will change it. I'll allow scouts and infiltrators too go into hiding within 12" of an enemy model.

Shooting:
Yeah, the -1 to hit at range isn't really necessary, it also hampers some units too much (Orks for example). I like your extended range idea but it could be too powerfull for some weapons IMO (Melta weaponry).

Overwatch was the one thing I really wanted to include. It adds a whole new element to the game and brings in the elements of covering fire and flanking tactics. It's also the most complex element to implement in a good way and will definitely need playtesting. At one point I was thinking of having them fire simultaneously with the first eligible target but it cluttered up things as then players could use a tank to go into their arc first if they didn't have the required weaponry and vice versa.
Now I'm writing this I think it makes it interesting as going into overwatch isn't a no brainer then. You'd have to think carefully what your opponent's going to do before you consider wasting a round of shooting or the chance to have gotten into a better position. I think I'll write it so they shoot simultaneously with the first unit that comes in range as I intended originally and see how that works out. Playtesting it is.

AP system. Yeah, cover saves are exempt as well. I didn't mention it as I figured that if a model is taking a cover save it means the weapon beat its AP, but I can see it coming up with guard or with troops in a bunker where the cover save is better than the model's armour save. I'll edit it.

I like the prone idea but I think it's too powerfull when allowed to be used in cover for some units as it is essentially the Stealth special rule without paying for it. Besides, I think the cover saves already represent the models making the best use of cover anyway and stealth represents troops that are expert at maximizing their cover. However I like the idea.
I'm thinking, units may go prone when ending their movement phase in the open. Prone units may not use heavy weapons but gain a 6+ invulnerable save. Units may also go prone as a response to ennemy shooting. When your opponent declares he's shooting at your unit while in the open with one of his units, the unit can go prone by passing a Ld test to represent the squad leader noticing the incoming fire in time and giving the order. In the unit's movement phase the unit may choose to remain prone or move as if it where in difficult terrain. A prone unit must pass a ld test to stand up in their movement phase and can act normally afterwards as the squad leader needs to convince his troops they can get up and move out once more. If they fail their Ld test, the unit remains prone and may not move this turn but may shoot normally with the exception of heavy weapons.
Units that are pinned while the majority is in open terrain go prone automatically.
Fearless units may not go prone at all. Special rules like Ork mob rules may not be used to let the squad go prone voluntarily. It may be used to get the boyz going again though.

I don't know about the barrage rule. It doesn't add much IMO and i think the current barrage rules cover the effects of mortar barrages quite well already.

I like the detachment command check for quickening up games.

@ McMullet:
The distinct advantage fleet has over marching is that you can use it when within 18" or to move to within 18" of ennemy units. It offers players the option of disrupting ennemy movement units with infiltrators and fast units as well. Fleeting units will be less affected by this.

Hoshi No Koe
17-11-2005, 16:51
I've now added grenade rules.

McMullet
17-11-2005, 16:59
The distinct advantage fleet has over marching is that you can use it when within 18" or to move to within 18" of ennemy units. It offers players the option of disrupting ennemy movement units with infiltrators and fast units as well. Fleeting units will be less affected by this.
I see what you mean. It's just that, for the first move of the game at least, you're better off marching than fleeting, which seems a bit off, given that you pay for fleet, whereas marching is "free". Perhaps marching could be d6" like fleeting, but with the restrictions you nooted?

Rik Valdis
17-11-2005, 20:14
I will come back later and have a proper read through these rules but at first glance one thing jumps out at me, going prone should give a 6+ cover save, not invulnerable so that the save will be ignored by flamers, you should however specify that the unit will not count in cover if assaulted.

Hoshi No Koe
18-11-2005, 06:03
Oh yeah, going prone is meant to be a cover save. My mistake, I'll also add a note that a prone unit being charged does not count as being in cover.

Nurlgitch, sarcasm?
I'm trying to go for realism by implementing some extra rules that are meant to fit with the current core rules and keeping them as streamlined as possible. Think of it like the advanced rules section in LotR which enable steeds to run loose and heros to pick up weapons.

Zark the Damned
18-11-2005, 12:49
I would change forced march so you are not allowed to use it to move closer than 12" to the enemy. This would give Fleet it's advantage back (since it doesn't have this restriction).

I'll have to have a better read through later.

Hoshi No Koe
18-11-2005, 16:32
@ Nurglitch.

The point of these rules is just an attempt at bringing a couple of elements back that people miss and that was felt are lacking in the core rules. I've written them so that they are all optional and you could add some to your game while leaving others out.
They're just an attempt at adding a little bit of depth to the game while not carving into the main rules. In a way you could see them as the LotR advanced rules as I'm attempting to add a little depth and as such increase the narrative value of a game by adding a couple of extra rules.
As you can see they're not all that complex and just allow units to take a couple more actions while not infringing into the game balance too much. The only rule that considerably changes the way a game is played is the overwatch rule and the only one that can significantly slow down the game IMO. Like I said, the rules are optional so if you want to avoid the headache of thinking about wether putting a unit on overwatch's worth it you simply play without the rule.

Not trying to fix the game, just add a layer of minor rules where a player can do something in his opponent's turn(prone and overwatch) instead of waiting it out.

I've changed the prone rules so that it grants a cover save instead of an invulnerable save.
As for the fleet to march argument. The eldar can simply march as well the first couple of turns. At first, I was thinking of allowing fleet on top of marching but I thought they'd be too fast. Maybe I'll just put that back in but I think the advantage of moving faster in close proximity of your opponent is already a bigger advantage over marching. I could also increase the no march zone to 24" instead. That way it'll only affect units that are left out at the other side of the table to get back into the game more quickly.

colhodg
18-11-2005, 19:16
Marching: Whichever way, this should just be a rule that prevents infantry units from being stranded on one side of the board - if it intefers with fleet too much, add a disadvantage of some sort, ie marching units cannot make use of cover saves (their rapid movement makes them too obvious, they don't have time to duck down as normal)

Also more pinning. Causing pinning allows you to fire with one unit and manouver into assault with anther which is the cornerstone of infantry tactics. Maybe there should be a few more pinning weapons or Ld modifiers or some way of forcing pinning tests through massed fire? Just something to think about.

Gwedd
20-11-2005, 03:30
Comrades,

Grenades are already worked into the assault rules. If you insist on using them, though, then I would suggest this:

Grenades may be thrown priot to an assault, but the use negates any bomus attacks the user may have. In other words, if you throw a grenade and then assault, you are limited to whatever number of attacks your statline lists, for the initial round pf melee. The grenades then, take time to throw, and you have to wait a few seconds to let the blast clear before assaulting. That takes time, and lessons your number of attacks on the enemy.

KISS. Only 2 types of grenade. Frag and Krak. One range: guess. You guess, then throw.

I would also suggest that you follow Gwedd's 1st law of wargames rules development: "As rules increase, figure scale and ratio decrease in proportion."

In other words, the more complex the rules, the fewer number of models are required. I'm not suggesting you abandon optional rules development, but when you decide to increase the complexity of the game, you should decrease the points allowed per side.

Respects,

Gwedd

Hoshi No Koe
20-11-2005, 15:56
Like I said, the goal here is to minimize the slow down as much as possible. If you read them through thoroughly you'll see they're little rules additions, I'm not planning to even do much more as I'm pretty happy with the current system.
They're just add on optional rules the way I see it, and most of them will only slow down the game by a coupl of extra dice rolls. The only one I can see having a noticeable effect on the game speed is the overwatch rules which will need you to think a little more about what you're going to do. Most of them only require a ld test to see if you can perform the action but otherwise that doesn't take a lot of time.

crashbang
22-11-2005, 17:33
not bad. it gives assaulty foot sloggers, like orks, a boost no doubt. what happened in playtests?

Hoshi No Koe
25-11-2005, 14:33
I haven't playtested anything yet. I don't get to play as much as I'd like too and there's only one friend of mine that's familiar enough with the main rules with whom I can test these rules.
I'll be reporting any new developments though.

Hoshi No Koe
01-12-2005, 15:11
I've added some optional rules concerning shotguns and sniper rifles. The shotgun rule was to represent the high impact power at close range, and make them slightly more usefull.

The sniper rifle rules, I've put in because, even though I think sniper rifles are pretty effective as they are, I thought the way they worked was a bit off. In their current version they are most effective against high toughess targets. Although I can agree they have the possibility to hit large targets at their weak points, I always thought they should be more effective against infantry. These rules give the sniper rifles a strength value between 3 and 7, which makes them somewaht better against infantry while still representing their ability to hit large targets at weak points depending on the shooter's accuracy as it should IMO. It's slightly more complex than the current rules but not so much so that it significantly slows down the shooting phase. Doubly so considering the relative scarceness of the weapon.

Enlightened Bystander
05-12-2005, 10:05
Just a little niggle with the AP stuff- you should specify reroll succesful armour saves, I'm sure that was your intent but at the moment it can be read as rerolling all saves, which is a bit pointless IMO

Odin
05-12-2005, 12:46
I like most of these suggestions, though a few seem unnecessary (like the "prone" rule).

I'd like to see ballistic skill have some effect on the effectiveness of sniper rifles. After all, a well-trained space marine sniper is going to make better use of it than an ork would (if he could use it). Perhaps it should be 2+ to hit, then roll equal to or under your Bs to wound.

The forced march should probably only be D6" I think. It should definitely be in there though - it ought to be in the core rules! Basically "fleet" should enable you to march regardless of how close the enemy are, and perhaps to roll 2D6 and choose the highest rather than just rolling 1D6 like everyone else.