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wolsey
23-10-2008, 23:36
Can someone please explain to me why the new Warriors of Chaos book is awful? I have read on several threads how they are definitely a bottom tier army but just can't see the reasoning behind that conclusion.

Hrogoff the Destructor
23-10-2008, 23:42
Can someone please explain to me why the new Warriors of Chaos book is awful? I have read on several threads how they are definitely a bottom tier army but just can't see the reasoning behind that conclusion.

I haven't played with mine yet, but I just think people are upset because they don't look as powerful on paper as VC, DoC, and DE.

Shamfrit
23-10-2008, 23:42
Go here: http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167493

Seeketh thine answer, without opening another thread.

Conotor
24-10-2008, 00:16
Look bad on paper??? Can't warriors have 2-3 S6 attacks, or 2 S4 with a 2+ SAVE? That doesn't look bad to me.

Voodoo Boyz
24-10-2008, 03:19
Look bad on paper??? Can't warriors have 2-3 S6 attacks, or 2 S4 with a 2+ SAVE? That doesn't look bad to me.

Sure it looks bad on paper (and in practice) when they're only ranked infantry that moves 4" a turn, that cost 16 points a model (minimum) for the cheapest version of those options described.

Porksta
24-10-2008, 03:35
Not to mention the champion has the possibility to cause fear or terror and can give the unit Magic Resistance 3.

Kalec
24-10-2008, 03:40
Not to mention the champion has the possibility to cause fear or terror and can give the unit Magic Resistance 3.

If you take a warshrine, that is, and he manages to kill an enemy character or large target. And then you need to roll a good number on the eye of the gods table.

Porksta
24-10-2008, 03:45
If you take a warshrine, that is, and he manages to kill an enemy character or large target. And then you need to roll a good number on the eye of the gods table.

IIRC as soon as the Warshrine is deployed, all champions get a roll on the table. Or did I misread that?

olmsted
24-10-2008, 04:07
its simply people bitch about anything thats new

StanMcKim
24-10-2008, 04:12
I have seen the new chaos warriors deployed several times. The person playing them takes three blocks of 20, all of them with extra handweapon and shield. He then takes two units of 5 warhounds, Festus, a level 2 sorc, a bsb, and a deamon prince. Everything has the mark of nurgle. So far he has won all of his games except one. That many warriors is really damn hard to kill. You *really* need strengh 5 to make an appreciable dent. The mark of nurgle makes shooting an iffy prospect at best, and unless you're weapon skill *7* you'll always need 4s to hit them in combat. They'll always hit on 3 or better unless you're weapon skill 6. It's redonculous.
I have seen cold one knights with a lord, bloodletters, dwarven warriors, and assassins all bounce off those units. It is incredibly intimidating seeing that much elite infantry across the board.
Now yes, the army is slow. There is no doubt about it. However, there are so many of them and they're so hard to kill, that they *will* make it to your line. The eye of the gods table is cool, but it's not the strength of the army. However, issuing a challenge with your champion usually results in a point of overkill which isn't too bad. It does have one major weakness though and thats psychology. If you can reduce their leadership they'll run off the board.

-Stan

Lordsaradain
24-10-2008, 07:15
IIRC as soon as the Warshrine is deployed, all champions get a roll on the table. Or did I misread that?

You did. All champions may roll on the table if the win a challange or kill a large target if you have a warshrine.

The Red Scourge
24-10-2008, 08:02
Warriors are awful, because they only excel at one of the 4 aspects of warhammer and that is close combat.

Which isn't quite true.

With core fast cavalry, they have quite a presence in the movement phase – not as much as the elves, who also has skirmishers and fliers, but they are more agile than for instance the empire.

They can't produce a boatload of power dice, but if they go magic heavy, they have less to fear from miscasts, while they can really disrupt an opposing magic phase – and 14 PD at 2K is nothing to sneeze at.

Shooting. They don't. But again, a Tzeentch/Slaanesh army with a couple of Hellcannons will produce results.

So magic heavy regiments of warriors screened by hounds supported by hellcannons and horsemen will prove very nasty.

mistformsquirrel
24-10-2008, 08:11
Largely its because we split your skulls, spill your entrails across the frozen ground, and then sacrifice your village to please the Dark Gods.

Oh yeah, and we park in handicap spaces. >.> We're NOT NICE! :mad:

... Oh the book... *shrug* <. .> dun ask me.

Lordsaradain
24-10-2008, 10:30
What WoC lack is skirmishers and fliers.

Because WoC relies heavily on infantry with only M4, being marchblocked by enemy fliers or skirmishers can be a huge problem. And because WoC lacks anything shooty or with 360 degree sight, they have a very difficult time dealing with such problems.

The closest thing to 360 degree sight they can get is basically a spawn, which has random movement. In that aspect they are very much like orcs and goblins. The differance is that while O&G have cheap below average troops who suffer from animosity, WoC has very expensive high above average troops.

The death of an infantrybaseed WoC army is a gunline AND fliers. So for all dwarf players, feild a gunline and a gyrocopter and you will hopefully get out of the battle unhurt.

That is unless the WoC player starts bringing lots of cheap warhound screens, combined with a couple of nasty units of chaos knights and a few units of marauder horsemen. :P

Slaaneshi Ice Cream
24-10-2008, 10:32
In other words go all cav for the next 5 years. Suckers.

logan054
24-10-2008, 11:14
you know when i look at the new book i really have to ask myself one question, what has it achieved over the other book, to be honest i cant really say it has achieved much, people are pretty much going to use the same army they did in 6th ed, all its really done is make people think about the paint scheme more.

mistformsquirrel
24-10-2008, 11:24
Keeping in mind my limited experience here, but this is something thats actually been rolling through my brain for awhile as a means of protecting my army (at large) from shooting:

Instead of relying on Warhound screens, which are liable to go down pretty much instantly if they get shot (admittedly they are cheap, but still...) what about using a unit of Chaos Warriors with the Blasted Standard and Mark of Tzeentch to form a line in front of your army.

You've got a 4+ ward right there against shooting; and combined with shields you've got a 2+/4++ save T4 unit with Ld8. Not something that would be easily hurt nor panicked.

(Quick mathhammer - 60 handgunners firing at that single unit produces only 4 kills. Admittedly sad to lose 4 semi-expensive models, but the rest of your army remains completely unscathed.)

Course you've got to reform before a unit like that does a darn thing in melee >.< so I don't know. Its just one of those wild ideas I get sometimes.

The Red Scourge
24-10-2008, 12:35
What WoC lack is skirmishers and fliers

True and not so true.

Nothing is keeping you from having a Tzeentch disc surfer patrolling your rear to keep it free of pesky harpies and eagles.

Instead of skirmishers, we've got brute force. When you've got a S8 shaggoth or S7 dragon ogres, a steam tank won't be as much a threat, as it will be a source of easy victory points something my skirmishing and flying wood elves can only dream of.

Your units should be good enough to take out enemy characters on their own, so you can easily use your characters to take out the light stuff.

Ward.
24-10-2008, 12:35
It does have one major weakness though and thats psychology. If you can reduce their leadership they'll run off the board.
-Stan
How much of a weaknes is it though, since they re-roll failed psycology tests.


If you take a warshrine, that is, and he manages to kill an enemy character or large target. And then you need to roll a good number on the eye of the gods table.
Or an enemy champion and there's only one bad number on the table, everything else is pretty nice (although admittedly 2, 7 and 10 don't interest me much). Secondly the warshrine can give a unit a blessing as well, then redo it if it turns up poor, stubborn 4+ wardsave maurauders anyone?



Course you've got to reform before a unit like that does a darn thing in melee >.< so I don't know. Its just one of those wild ideas I get sometimes.
Give them halberds and the units dishing out 13 WS5 S5 attacks with 6 models in base contact (really the best you can hope for). Still pretty stabby if you ask me.

OP: They really aren't that bad. While I do think forsaken should have been skirmishers and all characters should have gotten a free eye of the gods table roll the books pretty solid but unfortunately inflexible at the same time.

Lordsaradain
24-10-2008, 12:38
True and not so true.

Nothing is keeping you from having a Tzeentch disc surfer patrolling your rear to keep it free of pesky harpies and eagles.


Does a character on disk have 360 degree sight? Does he also have a 360 degree charge?

GodlessM
24-10-2008, 13:03
The book's pretty solid but unfortunately inflexible at the same time.

i think this just about sums it up.

EvC
24-10-2008, 13:22
(Quick mathhammer - 60 handgunners firing at that single unit produces only 4 kills. Admittedly sad to lose 4 semi-expensive models, but the rest of your army remains completely unscathed.)

If the enemy has a hill, he will just shoot the troops behind your screening line. Or he'll just charge them with anything fast and hitty and with next to no static CR you'll break easily and lose this ridiculously expensive unit. Probably not a grand idea ;)

The Red Scourge
24-10-2008, 13:31
Does a character on disk have 360 degree sight? Does he also have a 360 degree charge?

Reading the rules will answer those questions.

I only point towards solutions to your problems, but if you prefer whining, thats fine by me :rolleyes:

WoC has the most devastating CC abilities, high armor, high toughness, high strength even high morale. The price to pay for this is a limited mobility, but compared to empire and dwarves, they are still highly mobile.

PARTYCHICORITA
24-10-2008, 13:47
Can someone please explain to me why the new Warriors of Chaos book is awful? I have read on several threads how they are definitely a bottom tier army but just can't see the reasoning behind that conclusion.

Bah, when the DE book came out most "hardcore veterans" said it was a crappy/lower tier army as well. Look at them now...

Light cavalry as core, inmune to panic/fear/terror w/o ItP, access to dragons, large targets w/o riders, cheap units. Sure this ain't the Deamons or VC book but it sure ain't awful. People just enjoy a good whine.

loveless
24-10-2008, 14:19
Largely its because we split your skulls, spill your entrails across the frozen ground, and then sacrifice your village to please the Dark Gods.

Oh yeah, and we park in handicap spaces. >.> We're NOT NICE! :mad:

... Oh the book... *shrug* <. .> dun ask me.

Drat. The blasted squirrel took my response to the question.


I wouldn't place the book as awful, exactly. Will it diminish cries of Vampire/Daemon overpoweredness (there's a word for you)? No, it won't outperform them from a sheer power standpoint. Could it be at the same level as the High/Dark Elves? I see no reason why not.

Discord
24-10-2008, 14:20
Or an enemy champion...

Nope. Champions aren't characters and you only get to roll on the table when killing a character in a challenge or a large target. So not much else than dragon ogre champions get to roll on it if you have the warshrine around, unless you get lucky. And even in that case, your opponent can just accept the dragon ogre's challenge with his own unit champion.

Shamfrit
24-10-2008, 14:21
Let us look at the list as a whole:

Army Wide Rules

Re-roll Panic: This in itself is phenomenol. Do you know why? Because Warriors don't have access to shooting, other than the Hellcannon, and they're 'forced' to march across the board they're going to take shooting damage, and this will inevitably cause panic tests across your army - re-rollable LD7 is as good as LD8-9, and it's surprising to see how durable to panic Hounds are, even with LD5.

Eye of the Gods: Not strictly an army wide rule persay, but one that can certainly adapt and develop itself depending on the structure of your list and the sort of opponent you're playing. The only real downside to this is that you have to challenge, but frankly, I always challenge anyway, limiting losses is a good way of further increasing your strong combat blocks survivability, and against normal unit champions, especially elves, you're going to hammer down. Especially amusing once you amass the results onto Chosen, and very good considering you always get a roll a turn with a 3+ ward save Altar.

Marks of the Gods: Again, not strictly an army wide rule, but one that affects most things:

Mark of Slaneesh: Immune to Panic, Terror and Fear. (Incredibly cheap! ASF when used on a Giant!)

Mark of Khorne: Frenzy!!!!!! (Or +1 strength when used on a Giant.)

Mark of Nurgle: -1 to shoot, -1ws in base contact.

Mark of Tzeentch: +1 to cast, +1 to all ward saves (6+ if they don't have one.)

---

Core Choices

Marauders: I am in agreement with the whole craze over markable and cheap rank and file. You have choices, further damaging the army weakness, shooting, with the Mark of Nurgle. -1 to shoot, and -1 ws in base contact means the vast majority of things will be hitting in close combat on 4's as well. Then you're re-rolling panic on Ld7 and you're weak to Psychology. So, if you don't want that, take the incredibly, incredibly cheap Mark of Slaneesh. No more psychology! Solid, rigid block of infantry - sorted. Heck, if you want to go minamilist with flails for 12 man flank/harasser squads with 2XSTR5 attacks each, also immune to Psychology? Heck, Mark of Khorne. And if you want a guaranteed ward save, go Tzeentch.

Warriors: I run a long line of 10 of these, Mark of Khorne, Halberds, Unit Champion. Not only can they take alot of punishment from rnf, even ogres, they can deliver 20+ WS5 STR5 attacks; enough to strip through Static CR. Slightly expensive at 180 odd points, but so worth it.

---

Special:

Knights: Fear, 2STR5 each, magical attacks, 1+ save....Str 4 attack from mount, -1 to shoot, always hit on 4's against most things with Nurgle, frenzied with a banner...very hard shock troops. 200 minimum unit cost is the only downside. But then again, they're 15 points cheaper per model than Blood Knights.

Trolls: Mutant Regeneration, I will say no more.

---

I've ran out of steam now, I could go on listing why the book is excellent and works to counterpoint the armies weakness but none of you 'whiners' will listen anyway, so frankly, I'm going back to my Flying Daemon Prince and his multiple casting of Infernal Gateway, supported by 2 Shaggoths :D

Odin
24-10-2008, 14:27
My main problem with the WoC book is there are no beasts, and no daemons. It is therefore not the army I fell in love with nearly 20 years ago. I haven't tried using it yet - first game this weekend hopefully. But I really haven't enjoyed writing army lists, nothing feels right.


Reading the rules will answer those questions.

I only point towards solutions to your problems, but if you prefer whining, thats fine by me :rolleyes:

WoC has the most devastating CC abilities, high armor, high toughness, high strength – even high morale. The price to pay for this is a limited mobility, but compared to empire and dwarves, they are still highly mobile.

He already knows the answer to those (rhetorical) questions. The point was, it is not a solution, as a unit of skirmishing flyers will not be caused any significant problems by a flyer with 90 degree line of sight.

EvC
24-10-2008, 14:29
Well, when you say re-roll failed panic that's good, but given that much of the army used to re-roll all failed psychology tests, it's hardly a boost, is it?! Okay, having it on Marauders is certainly nice, though I like to mark mine with Slaanesh anyway, just to guarantee that they won't run from terror. Will have to give your new style Chaos army a game sometime soon Shamfrit, see if things have improved for you :D

Ward.
24-10-2008, 14:41
Nope. Champions aren't characters and you only get to roll on the table when killing a character in a challenge or a large target. So not much else than dragon ogre champions get to roll on it if you have the warshrine around, unless you get lucky. And even in that case, your opponent can just accept the dragon ogre's challenge with his own unit champion.

My apologies then, I was under the impression* that they simply had to win a challenge to gain a roll on the eye of the gods table. Do characters get it when they slay a unit champion?

I still think it's a pretty nifty reward for knocking off a wizard that's been left in a unit.

*Based upon the leaked rules summary :o

Shamfrit
24-10-2008, 14:52
Well, when you say re-roll failed panic that's good, but given that much of the army used to re-roll all failed psychology tests, it's hardly a boost, is it?! Okay, having it on Marauders is certainly nice, though I like to mark mine with Slaanesh anyway, just to guarantee that they won't run from terror. Will have to give your new style Chaos army a game sometime soon Shamfrit, see if things have improved for you :D

Yes but now you're not forced to take the Mark of Slaneesh, as you get re-roll panic AND -1 to shoot/etc.

Aurellis
24-10-2008, 15:05
I still can't believe people are talking about the new Warriors of Chaos army book being poor. I totally and 100% agree with Shamfrit The Narroq, he knows what he's talking about. I've only played the new book twice but it was a brutal formula without being overly cheesey. I welcome the new book and hope all the books to come are as good as the Dark Elf and Warriors of Chaos books have been balancewise.

Shamfrit
24-10-2008, 15:09
I totally and 100% agree with Shamfrit The Narroq, he knows what he's talking about.

:eek: Now I'm blushing.

mistformsquirrel
24-10-2008, 15:12
If the enemy has a hill, he will just shoot the troops behind your screening line. Or he'll just charge them with anything fast and hitty and with next to no static CR you'll break easily and lose this ridiculously expensive unit. Probably not a grand idea ;)

*doh*

... I feel so stupid, I totally forgot about that <x,x> Thanks.

(I am still going to equip a unit that way, but I won't be using it in that fashion hehe <,< - cause I have to admit, a 4+ ward against shooting is tasty!)

Discord
24-10-2008, 16:19
My apologies then, I was under the impression* that they simply had to win a challenge to gain a roll on the eye of the gods table. Do characters get it when they slay a unit champion?

Nope. Killing a character in a challenge, or a large target anytime. Same for your champions, but only when the altar is present.


I still think it's a pretty nifty reward for knocking off a wizard that's been left in a unit.

I kind of see it as a downside. Imagine your badass unit champion/character charging into a unit with a wizard you want to pick off. Normally, you can just kill it. With this rule, you have to challenge, which the enemy wizard can simply decline, stepping into the backrank safe from any of your attacks. Want to cut down those necromancers hiding in the unbreakable skeletons? Well, best send a unit without someone who'll let them escape by challenge declining.

Shamfrit
24-10-2008, 16:38
Through declining the challenge your opponent is going to have an attack less, and if you charged, which is what you should be doing when you're hunting for casters, chances are those other 4 models won't survive either - leaving just the champion to attack back.

Ultimately, they're going to lose the mage anyway, and if they are Undead - then they can't re-raise next turn because they're in the back rank - as far as I'm aware characters failing a challenge count as not being in the game...or is that just for the BSB?

EvC
24-10-2008, 16:41
Mind you, if they have a champion - and every Necromancer bunker has one - you can just pick the champion to go to the back of the unit and then target and kill the Necromancer. But you won't get to roll on the EotG table for it, sadly, and he'll just accept with champ either way.

Briohmar
24-10-2008, 17:34
you know when i look at the new book i really have to ask myself one question, what has it achieved over the other book, to be honest i cant really say it has achieved much, people are pretty much going to use the same army they did in 6th ed, all its really done is make people think about the paint scheme more.

Hell, I'm not even going to change my color scheme. My problem is that my special choices, to wit my Daemons must now be put aside. I guess I will have about 240 extra points, which will likely become an additional unit of Marauders with flails, and possibly another horsemen unit. Last list, 20 Marauders with flails and full command was around 152 points, 92 for 5 horsemen with flails (that's close to 240) except I think Marauders cost less now, so I might even be abl;e to add some hounds to the equation. Once I actually get the book, I'll figure it out.

marv335
24-10-2008, 18:52
I've been reading through the book this afternoon.
My first thought was "how am I going to beat this?"
High toughness troops with decent leadership that have protection from shooting.

my second thought was "I fancy a marauder horde, no warriors, just marauders and dogs".
then my third thought was "monster army!"
Kholek, throgg, trolls as core, warhounds, ogres, dragon ogres :D
Should be a fun army.
I'm going to draw up a few lists....

Ozorik
24-10-2008, 18:57
s far as I'm aware characters failing a challenge count as not being in the game.

They are still in the game, they just lose all their special rules, bonuses etc and effectively play no part in the game for the rest of the turn.

TheRaven476
24-10-2008, 19:12
It's always missleading to look at forums just before a new army book gets released because usually the people that know the most about the army and have thought up tactics are just the hard core win at all cost types.

Basically to this particular breed of people an armies usefullness is determined by whether or not a "Cheese" list or an OP unit has been found. VC and Demons both have those so if at first glance no one has found that OP cheese way of playing the army people cry "ZOMG, this army sucks it doesn't have anything to compete with cheese armies from VC or Demons". Personally I like the look of WoC, I think it's got it's own personality it seems balanced and it's not like people can say "I'm so l337 I max out on unit X and always win! I'm hard core".

I'm interested in seeing how people react when the new lizzardmen rules start getting confirmed. People are allready planning mass stegadon cheese lists so we may not get the cries of "Lizzies suck!" because the Johny Mc Basementdwellers have already found something to try and obsess over to make a cheese army.

wingedserpant
24-10-2008, 19:21
Not to mention the champion has the possibility to cause fear or terror and can give the unit Magic Resistance 3.

Still only movement four.

SolarHammer
24-10-2008, 19:28
They are still in the game, they just lose all their special rules, bonuses etc and effectively play no part in the game for the rest of the turn.

How about the rest of that close combat phase?

The retired character is automatically returned to a fighting rank at the end of that close combat phase, ready to fight in the following turn.
p.77

Aurellis
24-10-2008, 19:35
Still only movement four.

That's not an argument that's a statement.

I could equally says that all Elf armies are 'awful' because they're T3, or all Daemon armies are 'awful' because they have daemonic instability.

A weakness doesn't mean an army is tactically poor. Re-rolling Leadership tests, high toughness, high armour saves far outway the weakness of the M4 value.

Everything needs to be put into context

Ozorik
24-10-2008, 19:47
How about the rest of that close combat phase?

Page 77 (BfSP rule book) , first line of the 2nd parapgraph:

" A character which has been retired after refusing a challenge may not fight or do anything else that turn and loses all of his advantages......"

As the combat phase is the very last thing that happens in the turn its a moot point anyway. It could be argued that, according to RAW, the character would be unable to do anything (except fight in melee) for the complete turn and not just the player turn althoguh I suspect this is not RAI.

Further discussion on this topic would be best served in the rules forum though.

W0lf
24-10-2008, 20:24
Not aweful they are just mid tier.

Expensive slow troops with little/no ranged threat and no skirmishers/flyers.

Simply put its incredibly easy to march block warriors of chaos and keep their chosen/warriors out of combat.

I dont care how armoured/powerful my troops are, when they are crawling 4" a turn and cost 300-600 pts a unit they arnt doing all that much. People wont just let your slow-as-hell warriors charge their units.

sulla
24-10-2008, 20:40
Not aweful they are just mid tier.

Expensive slow troops with little/no ranged threat and no skirmishers/flyers.

Simply put its incredibly easy to march block warriors of chaos and keep their chosen/warriors out of combat.

I dont care how armoured/powerful my troops are, when they are crawling 4" a turn and cost 300-600 pts a unit they arnt doing all that much. People wont just let your slow-as-hell warriors charge their units.

So the typical chaos warrior player will need to get a little more advanced tactics than they have traditionally used (at least in 6th ed anyway), no? A more balanced list with magic and marauder horse shooting and possibly a few spawn as sweepers behind the lines to tie up pesky light flyers and fast cav?

Certainly not as easy a list to use as magic-heavy VC but I bet they'll give both daemons and VC a run for their money once they make it into combat with those resilient infantry blocks.

W0lf
24-10-2008, 20:48
Warriors of chaos will never* beat a equal skilled daemons general. Sorry but no. For a typical WoC army a blood thirster is pure destruction. End of.

Saying that i love chaos and said they are mid tier. They are not weak but saying 'you need improved tactics' is rubbish as it takes two to play fantasy. What if your opponent also develops these 'improved tactics'? The thing is you can both improve the way you play but WoC have some glaring holes your (competant) opponent can exploit.

That said i dont at all think chaos are uncompetitive or rubbish. They just arnt as inheiritantly powerful as say; Dark elves, Daemons, Vampires, Wood elves.

mav1971
24-10-2008, 21:07
Why all the people complaining about movement 4? Why should they be faster? Are the Chaos gods pushing them to greater speeds?

Chaos also has cavalry and M6 monsters. They should be able to get to the enemy fast enough to be a distraction.

In the current White Dwarf, the battle report chaos vs dwarves. Chaos had the first turn and was in combat by turn 2. I know the battle reports favor the new army, but M4 shouldn't be that much of a problem. And if it is I guess you shouldn't playing chaos.

Voodoo Boyz
24-10-2008, 21:42
Why all the people complaining about movement 4? Why should they be faster? Are the Chaos gods pushing them to greater speeds?

Chaos also has cavalry and M6 monsters. They should be able to get to the enemy fast enough to be a distraction.

In the current White Dwarf, the battle report chaos vs dwarves. Chaos had the first turn and was in combat by turn 2. I know the battle reports favor the new army, but M4 shouldn't be that much of a problem. And if it is I guess you shouldn't playing chaos.

People are complaining about Movement 4 because they want to use those cool Warrior models.

Yes, Chaos has Cavalry and M6 Monsters. And given the current rules for the game, it's best to make an army that consists of just those elements.

SolarHammer
24-10-2008, 21:56
Only a fool would use M4 infantry in an army without skirmishers.*
Only a fool would use any infantry in an army that can have pure cavalry (see Bretonnia).*

A Chaos player would be a double fool to use their infantry.*

*Unless that player has access to tons of cheap infantry and builds an army of essentially nothing but (eg. Marauder Horde).

Shamfrit
24-10-2008, 22:05
Bloodthirsters are weak to a Time Portal, such like everyone else.

I've just swept through a competative Vampires List, so there's half your theory gone already.

Ozorik
25-10-2008, 01:08
Only a fool would use M4 infantry in an army without skirmishers.*

Looks like I'm a (double?)fool then. In fact I always use infantry, min/maxing is an utterly pointless excersize reserved only for people who are far too competative for their own good.

My planned Brettonian army would have had a grand total of 16 knights (including characters) and about 130 peasants, does that make me a triple fool?

By the way how come Dwarves are so good given that they have no skirmishers and are movement 3?

KharnTheBetrayer01
25-10-2008, 01:33
I'm of the opinion that WoC look fantastic. Haven't had a chance to play them yet, but it won't be too long.

Hellcannons and Throwing axes are the only long ranged I ever used anyway, so I'll manage without. M4 is only an issue because of the last few armies to have come out. Elves are M5 and undead have Vanhels Danse. Deamons only have Slanneshi infantry units that move faster... What exactly is the problem with M4 units?

Especially when Chaos warriors have far better survivability than those other armies because they actually have a decent armour save.

As to how to combat a bloodthirster...No army can do that reliably without spamming gunlines, so thats hardly an issue.

Ward.
25-10-2008, 02:57
I kind of see it as a downside. Imagine your badass unit champion/character charging into a unit with a wizard you want to pick off. Normally, you can just kill it. With this rule, you have to challenge, which the enemy wizard can simply decline, stepping into the backrank safe from any of your attacks. Want to cut down those necromancers hiding in the unbreakable skeletons? Well, best send a unit without someone who'll let them escape by challenge declining.

Damn rules summary, I thought only characters had to challenge.

SolarHammer
25-10-2008, 04:41
Looks like I'm a (double?)fool then. In fact I always use infantry, min/maxing is an utterly pointless excersize reserved only for people who are far too competative for their own good.

My planned Brettonian army would have had a grand total of 16 knights (including characters) and about 130 peasants, does that make me a triple fool?

By the way how come Dwarves are so good given that they have no skirmishers and are movement 3?

Because no Dwarf army I know of has practically no shooting and has to try and cross the field to get to grips with the enemy. Lose all your cannons, bolt throwers, organ guns, quarrelers, thunderers, flame cannons, but maybe keep Organ Guns and see how viable Dwarfs are.

That's the state of the new Chaos book. It's not even min-maxing. It will just be a gradual process along these lines:

Knights are good, they actually make it into combat by turn 5!
Chaos Warriors are not good, they move too slow, and there aren't enough of them to choose their battles. Often times they don't fight at all, and when they do, it's on the enemy's terms (2 hydras on the flanks, a half dozen chariots etc.).
Knights are better with support.
Chaos Warriors can't support knights.
Take less Chaos Warriors.
Knights can support other knights.
Take more knights.

I think this will become self-evident to anyone with more than a casual familiarity with the movement rules of the game and one or two games for/against WoC under their belt.

Hell, I read a battle report the other day where an Ogre army (the worst army book) with 3 Tyrants (the worst unit choice from the worst army book) and 2 Slave Giants (the other worst unit choice from the worst army book), marchblocked and destroyed utterly a Warriors of Chaos army.

There were pictures, so he wasn't just making it up. That's how bad the 15+ point infantry will fare in under the new regime.

Aurellis
25-10-2008, 04:46
Hell, I read a battle report the other day where an Ogre army (the worst army book) with 3 Tyrants (the worst unit choice from the worst army book) and 2 Slave Giants (the other worst unit choice from the worst army book), marchblocked and destroyed utterly a Warriors of Chaos army.

There were pictures, so he wasn't just making it up. That's how bad the 15+ point infantry will fare in under the new regime.

Got a link? That sounds like an intriguing read

Shamfrit
25-10-2008, 04:47
Because no Dwarf army I know of has practically no shooting and has to try and cross the field to get to grips with the enemy. Lose all your cannons, bolt throwers, organ guns, quarrelers, thunderers, flame cannons, but maybe keep Organ Guns and see how viable Dwarfs are.

That's the state of the new Chaos book. It's not even min-maxing. It will just be a gradual process along these lines:

Knights are good, they actually make it into combat by turn 5!
Chaos Warriors are not good, they move too slow, and there aren't enough of them to choose their battles. Often times they don't fight at all, and when they do, it's on the enemy's terms (2 hydras on the flanks, a half dozen chariots etc.).
Knights are better with support.
Chaos Warriors can't support knights.
Take less Chaos Warriors.
Knights can support other knights.
Take more knights.

I think this will become self-evident to anyone with more than a casual familiarity with the movement rules of the game and one or two games for/against WoC under their belt.

Hell, I read a battle report the other day where an Ogre army (the worst army book) with 3 Tyrants (the worst unit choice from the worst army book) and 2 Slave Giants (the other worst unit choice from the worst army book), marchblocked and destroyed utterly a Warriors of Chaos army.

There were pictures, so he wasn't just making it up. That's how bad the 15+ point infantry will fare in under the new regime.

Do you want to know how many Warriors I have in my list at the minute?

10

How many Knights?

5

Which survives in 100% of 12 games with the new list so far?

My Warriors.

---

Epic Fail

Porksta
25-10-2008, 05:07
I played a game against Wood Elves, took a 10 man unit of Chosen with a lord and Nurgle, and 2 10 man units with Nurgle. I lost half of one unit due to shooting. Twice an 11 man unit of Wardancers charged in, and twice they bounced off. The Chosen lost four models total despite being engaged with 30 Eternal Guard and a Lord. The other Warrior unit didn't get to do anything because my opponent moved the woods in front of them... Not to mention my lord killed himself because of that dang sword. Total result? Draw. So in actual combat I lost four warriors, and lost five from shooting. Not too bad if you ask me.

Kalec
25-10-2008, 05:15
Do you want to know how many Warriors I have in my list at the minute?

10

How many Knights?

5

Which survives in 100% of 12 games with the new list so far?

My Warriors.

---

Epic Fail

You don't seriously think this proves anything, do you?

mattschuur
25-10-2008, 06:11
Warriors are the best anvil unit in the game, yes better than ironbreakers. Why, because they have a 2+ save in combat, WS 5, T 4 and with marks they can be even harder to kill or kill harder. I played a game against a fellow WoC player and we made sure that our non-character led 20 man chaos warriors met each other. His were Nurgle, mine were Khorne. The end result? No casualties for either side for 3 phases. When did it break? when my Mtd. Marauders hit a flank. Total casualties, i lost 2 mtd. marauders, no warriors dead. Chaos warriors are dead hard. Expensive yes, but there are, imho, no opposing units that can beat them in CC without a bit of luck.

as far as flyers, skirmishers and march blocking goes, nothing has changed with my army. Mtd. marauders and spawn for anti- skirmishers, warhounds for anti-warmachine and sorcerers for anti-flyers. Its worked fairly well for me so far. Also, if M4 is so horrible, then half the armies in the game are completely atrocious. WoC can dominate the CC part of the game and with magic support even out that part. Therefore they must suffer one downside and shooting is it. Same with every army, the can dominate one aspect, nullify another and are weak in the third.

matt schuur

Kerill
25-10-2008, 08:10
WOC aren't that bad, but they certainly aren't good, they are simply below the power of the army books that have come out recently and are incredibly inflexible. This is somewhat worsened by the fact that they like decent bound spells to boost the magic phase so although their spells are good they can;t really rely on their magic and its horrendously expensive (compared to the cheap and very effective dark elf one). Although they are on par with dwarves and empire it's also easy for those armies to tool against WOC- all you need is a gunline and some fliers (which both armies have). The magic item and gift sections generally blow with no stand out wonderful items apart from the rapturous standard. The EOTG rule, whilst a nice idea is actually detrimental to the army since if you take magic you need to invest in a lot of physical protection for your sorcerers or the war shrine which is crap for its points. Finally the army is now far less well protected against magic due to the changes to the mark of Khorne.

The idea that warriors are the ULTIMATE anvil is also very flawed, they are expensive and only Ld8 meaning they are fairly easy to break with a flank charge (which is easy to get if you go warrior heavy) unless they have the rapturous standard or the banner of the gods.With these standards and a bsb they actually become a real anvil. The M4 on its own is a disadvantage but on it's own you can cope. The lack of any skirmishers makes it almost a deathblow to the army since your opponent can ensure they never reach combat. Just to make it worse we no longer have access to the lore of the beasts so to fight dragons you need a dragon (which is very dull). Had forsaken been skirmishers this would have in one stroke made the army flexible enough to make it able to compete with the newer elven armies and gunlines, instead it's simply another unit that will never be taken. GW really missed out on that one.

Chaos Ogres are inferior to minotaurs as well. All flying units have also disappeared making it harder to go against gunlines and disk-riding characters are now far more vulnerable to shooting than before. Hellcannons are also worse than before but they were never really a "core" unit IMO.

The rares are generally poor, you have the chaos giant which costs an extra 20 points for- no reason. Not that it matters since I think giants are DOW units too so you can get the cheaper one. Shaggoths are sub-standard for monsters and the war shrine is pants in battles under 3000. Spawn got cheaper (cool) but the marks are now more expensive and less interesting. ASF is nice for slaanesh spawn but I preferred the 3D6 which was also cheaper.

On the other hand Knights were good before, and they are even better now which adds a lot to the strength of the army. Marauders have also got better and the re-roll to panic really benefits marauder horsemen and hounds. Dragon ogres are solid enough although a more substantial drop in points would have been nice. If you are happy to fluff rape you can combine marks in the same unit and gain some small benefits that way. They are in some ways an army that needs to use DOW to try and cover some of the gaps.

Anyway to sum up WOC are not awful, they simply aren't good either and struggle to reach average. Character light with mixed marks is probably the best build and GW really dropped the ball on WOC, there is little synergy to the list but with only few changes here and there there could have been.

If I was to tweak the list to make it better I'd make the following changes (and hopefully next edition beasts and WOC at least will be back together at least)
1) Forsaken are skirmishers
2) Sorcerers and sorcerer lords can choose lore of the beast if unmarked.
3) Banner of wrath 50 points, bound level 5 and causes D6 S5 hits
4) The bound spell rod has S4 rather than S3
5) Chaos ogres can take a magic standard of up to 25 points.
6) Reduce dragon ogres by another 4/5 points.
7) Chaos warriors have an upgrade or banner for 25 points that allows them to always march.

Shamfrit
25-10-2008, 10:48
You don't seriously think this proves anything, do you?

It prooves about as much as every comment made regarding WoC's movement, and the apparent viability of WoC being purely limited to all cavalry lists to be honest.

Slaaneshi Ice Cream
25-10-2008, 10:49
Well said Kerrill.

Kalec
25-10-2008, 16:00
The problem with chaos ogres is that they are boring. We have dragon ogres, trolls, and forsaken that do what ogres do, and then some, and all have their own quirks that make them different. Different benefits for being marked then the standard bonuses would make them unique. As-is, ogres are just bargain-bin dragon ogres that aren't immune to lightning. WS3 hurts quite a bit as well.

Odin
27-10-2008, 13:23
It prooves about as much as every comment made regarding WoC's movement, and the apparent viability of WoC being purely limited to all cavalry lists to be honest.

The fact that your opponent was almost certainly more worried about the Knights, and therefore targeted them more? While the slower Warriors were not such a threat, as they take much longer to get anywhere and can usually be avoided?

Not saying Warriors are rubbish, because I like them. But I can definitely see how they will be missing from ultra-competitive lists.

My unit of 12 unmarked Warriors with War Banner managed to take a charge from a unit of Ushabti, after they had already been charged in the flank by a flying Tomb King. They then slaughtered the Ushabti, winning the combat by miles. Which would have been very handy, except for the Tomb King's annoying combination of Magic Items, including one which meant he could only lose 1 wound from combat resolution (which of course he healed every time it was his turn).

With the rumours of a new edition of Warhammer, with possibly more 40K-ish scenarios, I think elite infantry could improve quite dramatically, especially Warriors. If you need to capture objectives, your opponent can't avoid the slow-moving infantry. Just march your warriors up to whoever is claiming the objective - they either have to face you or get out of there. Either way, you get the objective.

Skyldig
27-10-2008, 13:34
Warriors are the best anvil unit in the game, yes better than ironbreakers.
matt schuur

Sadly, I beg to disagree.

I love warriors, and I'll try to field them. I know they can be a good anvil, but a really great anvil is one that is very forgiving to the player.

These units are typically hammerers, eternal guard, blackguard, white lions and greatswords, among others. They're all better anvils because they're Stubborn. Even better still are undead, demon or unbreakable units.

Stubborn or the inability to break means that no matter how much your enemy outsmarts you, your unit will still have a very good chance of standing. That makes an awesome anvil.

Chaos warriors are good anvils. They just require thought, planning and protection to work where other units just don't. And then we even have to pay nearly twice the amount of points for them for this drawback.

That's why Chaos warriors aren't the best anvil units, they're not even top 5. They require tactics to work, where most other anvils don't.

If they had stubborn on the other hand, they would be not only the best, but very worthwile too.

EvC
27-10-2008, 19:57
Sadly have to agree. So far my Chosen have taken three charges: Stormvermin + Warlord, a Giant and Black Orc BSB, and Black Guard with BSB, and each time they have ended up losing, and running (Despite the Rapturous Standard). Okay each time there's been a fighty character there but we're talking about 2 wounds worth of damage across all three charges. It'd be nice if I could ever outrun my opponents, but nah, instead it's the death of a 400 point unit. Anvil my ****!

Mireadur
27-10-2008, 20:26
Bah, when the DE book came out most "hardcore veterans" said it was a crappy/lower tier army as well. Look at them now...

They obviously arent too hardcore and/or smart.



Light cavalry as core, inmune to panic/fear/terror w/o ItP, access to dragons, large targets w/o riders, cheap units. Sure this ain't the Deamons or VC book but it sure ain't awful. People just enjoy a good whine.

I guess it cant be said enough times. The book is really one-dimensional and many units overlap each other, but at the same time is brutally powerful.

Seriously, its super easy to play with it, ive said this before: easiest armies to play with are the toughest ones. Chaos is not only the toughest but also the one with the highest Strength in its units. Also has a lot of fast units (movement 6-8) which happen to be the strongest and toughest ones too.

Its magic defense may not be the best (unless you get certain spell and item) but their offense is, again, brutal.

2 1st games ive had with them i've scored 2 solid massacres. I remember the 1st 2 serious games i got with HE... 1 marginal victory for me and 1 solid defeat.
What can we extract from those 4 games? they are way easier to play and it is way easier for them to survive than my ASF elves.

However, do i enjoy my WoC more than HE? i obviously do not, as in around 20 games with HE ive yet to field the same army or even play in the same way, while with WoC you are going to always do the same steps.

mattschuur
27-10-2008, 22:43
well, my post got a bit of a response.:D

I've just realized that my post might be taken out of context as i don't think i specified that Warriors with shields are a great, not best anvil unit and no i don't know what i was thinking:D, but i do agree that warriors with halberds, 2 hand weapons or great weapons are bad anvil units, but a solid assaulting unit.

I've played 9 games with the new book and a lack of skirmishers and flyers did not hinder my games at all, went 5-4. Again, they have alot of fast cavalry units to deal with skirmishers and a sorcerer or two can knock down a flyer fairly well. of course if its a dragon, thats a different story as the Lord will have to take on that challenge.

EvC. Now, i'll defend warriors but i do not support chosen. i really think this is a bad unit. the eye of the gods table is interesting but in no way does it make up for a 2 or 3 or more pt. increase in models that are basically warriors. except a roll of 12. I am also curious as to how you equipped them as you got hit in two instances by S4 units, not counting characters.

So basically, i'll change my statement to "Warriors 'with shields' are 'one' of the best anvil units in the game." Better? yes i agree.:D

Also, i think the one-dimensional feel of the army is supposed to be that way. They represent the primitive masses whose only plan is to swamp the enemy and beat them one-on-one in a battle of attrition. right or wrong it doesn't matter, its what they represent and it is their weakness. Every army has one and theirs is limited tactical flexibility. however they make up for it with units with good movement, hard hitting units and decent magic. Now i'm not saying its the greatest book, but horrible, no. Its by far better than the old hordes book save for the loss of daemons and beasts but thats a different thread.

matt schuur

EvC
27-10-2008, 23:50
Actually I misremembered one of the examples, with the Stormvermin it was a Slaanesh Warrior unit with shields and Rapturous standard. But my dice do suck :D

Valtiel
27-10-2008, 23:57
I have played one game with my Warriors of Chaos, all the Warrior units did very well in the army. Had 12 Warriors of Tzeentch with full command, banner of Rage and they surely beat regiments of Orcs away. I also had some Chosen of Tzeentch with Raptorous Standard. They beat off a regiment of Orcs with the lord in it I believe due to some luck, later recieved a charged from Savage Orc Boys (that had lost their frenzy) in the flank, but they held up and eventually beat them away. Was lucky to have gotten that +1 armour save on their EOTG table.

But are they worth their points? Don't think so. They cost 3 points more than normal warriors. Their command groups cost 50 points, normal warriors only have to pay 30 points. That means if we equip them the same in a 12 Warrior unit the Chosen will cost 56 points more. 56 points for some stat increase and WS6 is not worth it. Especially not in an army where everything is already expensive as hell. If the Chosen had been stubborn I'd gladly take them, but for them to be that I'd need to roll that 12 on the EOTG table...

Didn't bother to use Forsaken. I'd rather want Chosen, or get Chaos Ogres or Trolls that will work much better than these. The Forsaken are really a missed opportunity. You could have made them stubborn (since they probably wouldn't care about dying due to them being half-spawns), skirmish rules... then I'd probably think about using them. But now they are just another expensive unit (probably the worst unit in the book) in an otherwise army with expensive choices.

I will probably use Chosen from time to time. I just think they lack something. Why couldn't they have gotten the magic weapons the Knights have as well or something along those lines? That would make them better and let them keep their good armour save in combat (not 2+, 3+ but it would still be good).

Artemis360
28-10-2008, 04:19
Hell, I read a battle report the other day where an Ogre army (the worst army book) with 3 Tyrants (the worst unit choice from the worst army book) and 2 Slave Giants (the other worst unit choice from the worst army book), marchblocked and destroyed utterly a Warriors of Chaos army.


I could almost believe you knew what you were talking about if you didn't say 3 tyrants which is the ogre lord choice... Unless they were playing a 4000 point game? I'm not sure how you know what the worst choice is when you're not even sure what units you're talking about.

Anyway, I guess it partly depends on what you want your warriors to do. Give them warhounds to protect flanks, blasted standard with mark of tzeentch (4+ward and 3+armour vs all shooting anyone?) and maybe a BSB and you have a unit that is as tough as nails against most kinds of abuse. If an anvil is what you're looking for then that should do nicely. In fact I'm looking forward to playing this unit against a gunline :D Imagine a big scary unit of Str4 2Attacks each warriors that you just cannot kill, marching inexorably towards your lines.

SolarHammer
28-10-2008, 04:44
I could almost believe you knew what you were talking about if you didn't say 3 tyrants which is the ogre lord choice... Unless they were playing a 4000 point game? I'm not sure how you know what the worst choice is when you're not even sure what units you're talking about.

Anyway, I guess it partly depends on what you want your warriors to do. Give them warhounds to protect flanks, blasted standard with mark of tzeentch (4+ward and 3+armour vs all shooting anyone?) and maybe a BSB and you have a unit that is as tough as nails against most kinds of abuse. If an anvil is what you're looking for then that should do nicely. In fact I'm looking forward to playing this unit against a gunline :D Imagine a big scary unit of Str4 2Attacks each warriors that you just cannot kill, marching inexorably towards your lines.

Hunters. My apologies.

Artemis360
28-10-2008, 07:50
Alright, but still, a hunter is Str5 with armour piercing and if they got the flank that would give the chaos warriors only a 6+ armour save. If the unit had little static res to begin with, its not surprising they'd lose combat vs 3 hunters.

DarkstarSabre
28-10-2008, 08:53
Sure it looks bad on paper (and in practice) when they're only ranked infantry that moves 4" a turn, that cost 16 points a model (minimum) for the cheapest version of those options described.

As a Lizardman player paying like...2 points more for an infinitely better save, WS and I looks like a gods damned bargain to me.

That explains it. Those ragging on WoC are all Elf players and Dwarf players used to cheap broken joy! The Lizard players think this is a bloody steal at the moment!

Defcon
28-10-2008, 09:38
Not trying to siphon from this topic, but I've seen a -lot- of people talking about running units of 12 or the like in various threads in this section. I haven't played fantasy in a while - did I really just dream that units need to be 5 wide to give the rank bonus, or is it generally just a good idea to have a non-full rear unit to take some hits?

Mireadur
28-10-2008, 09:50
Im not sure what u mean but those 12 men units normally go in 2 ranks of 6 models wide. You maximize attacks while keep a +1CR.

Odin
28-10-2008, 13:36
The Banner of the Gods is superb if you want anvil units. Three infantry blocks, with a Battle Standard bearer in the middle one with BotG and a shield, and you end up with three stubborn units with break test re-rolls, the central one causing Terror. Very nasty. I favour Marauders as the central unit, as Terror+outnumbering is very useful.