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VVar
24-10-2008, 01:50
Need some help against various types of VC, I play a combat oriented DE list. Looking for generic strats. I mostly have trouble preventing van hels and summoning to go off, the only magic I take is a level 1 with two scrolls, and so far that's worked against everything else, but with VC throwing out 1-2 dice repeatedly there's not much I can do.

sulla
24-10-2008, 04:37
Well, you're going to get charged, and they're gonna get 'strikes first' up a few times, so build a little defence into you list; your heroes need to be able to take a few hits (pendant etc fro protection) and a unit of strikes first BG will always come in handy vs them. I also reccommend a cauldron vs VC because killing blow is the best way to deal with a wight king with the regen banner.

Personallt, I wouldn't want to give you much more advise than that. Better to let you shape your own army how you like it than give you some boring 'paint by numbers' stuff.

All I will say is that DE vs VC is a tough match up for the DE at 2K+ since DE are designed to break the enemy on the charge and punch through, using hard charges and psychology and undead neuter both of them pretty well. If you find your opponent constructs lists that are just too tough to deal with, ask for a few sub 2K battles first as practice; the power shifts mutch more in the DE favour in these smaller games where the VC player cannot max out on magic so easily.

VVar
24-10-2008, 15:25
Thanks, I will look more into the cauldron

Lord Khabal
24-10-2008, 15:30
Well, witches are pretty effective too, since undead cant really flee and have a low AS. Also frenzy = immune to psy is a great bonus vs undead...

Max_Killfactor
24-10-2008, 16:38
Along that reasoning, frenzied corsairs are a viable option too. Pretty much witches without the poison, but with armor and they are core. My regular VC opponent doesn't like hydras or manticores much either, VC have nothing to shoot them down with, just gotta watch out for some magic missiles on the manticore.

You could always go for a beefier magic phase or magic defense. I'm assuming you already have a ring of hotek somewhere in your army.

theunwantedbeing
24-10-2008, 16:52
Black guard.
Immune to psychology and stubborn on leadership 9.
Stick a battle standard bearer nearby but behind them and they're almost never going to break.

2 hydra's will also cause your opponent a whole heap of problems, run them together for maximum annoyance factor.

Witch elves work very wel against most things as well.
Anything without armour is going to be in serious trouble if it gets hit by a unit of witch elves, you dont even need to take big unit's of them as VC have as near as makes no difference, no shooting at all.

sulla
25-10-2008, 01:23
Well, witches are pretty effective too, since undead cant really flee and have a low AS. Also frenzy = immune to psy is a great bonus vs undead...

Most undead have low AS. Grave guard with shields, either knight unit or etherals will be more than enough to take apart witches.

The lower magic you use, the greater risk in playing frenzied troops vs VC because every vamp's default spell is a unit of raised zombies at precisely 45 degrees to you line exposing your unit to the perfect countercharge. Also, that low magic means likelihood of Vanhels on his units to get strikes first.

So my basic equation is for low magic dark elves to take better protection and lower risk units (strikes first BG, hydra banner cold one knights etc) than a high magic DE army has to. The high magic DE army can pick and choose what VC spells to let through and is not at such mercy to vanhels and raises. Personally, I prefer the low magic DE army with it's more solid cc units and a goal of murdering the vamps.

Mullitron
25-10-2008, 12:44
i find assassins quite useful, tho only played 2 small games against vc

lopezpie
25-10-2008, 13:38
Anytime I play against vc I make it a point to head straight for the general in there army.Taking a black dragon with a pretty worked up lord and harpies for moral support. its nice to watch them crumble once he is gone!

Dark Apostle197
25-10-2008, 17:13
I don't see how sending a black dragon really works... You charge your turn. Prob second or third. He challenges with Champ, you have to accept. You crumble some more. He raises more, the first one back being champ, who re challenges. I've seen people try lol. Always turns bad.

TheRaven476
27-10-2008, 17:30
It's been said before but 2 Hydras is the biggest thing you can do. Bolt throwers are less effective against VC so you're not really losing out by not taking them.

Also a few other minor things you can take notice of. The +1 to dispell rolls magic item is usually 50 points, but for dark elves it's 35 points, that's a huge saving. Considering you'll be rolling to dispell alot of low level casting rolls (For summoning and what not) this could pay off big time. The best army to take out VC would be a Khaine themed army, witch elves and a cauldron will absolutely cut through any unit.

Norngahl
27-10-2008, 20:16
Hi!

Ive made a list for myself @2000points.

Dreadlord, Armor of Darkness, Pendant of Kaeleth, Soulrender 215
Death Hag, Cauldron of Blood 200
Sorcress, 2 Scrolls 150
Sorcress, Seal of Ghrond 130
5 Dark Riders 85
5 Dark Riders 85
15 Spearman with Shields, full Command 120
17 Black Guards, full Command, Ring of Hotek, Banner of Hag Graef 316 (-> Dreadlord)
12 Witch Elves, full Command 145
5 Cold one Knights wih full Command 175
Hydra 175
Hydra 175
--
1996

The plan is to put the BG in the middle of the field, behind them the Cauldron, to the left the Spearman and to the right the Witch Elves. Left to the Spearman the Hydras, right to the Witch Elves the CoK, and in front of the Hydras and CoK the Dark Riders.

I guess the biggest problem you got against VC is the static combat resolution and that they are unbreakable. So I go forward with the 3 infantery units, each can be supportet by the cauldron (spearman with spears come up to 21 attacks, Witch Elves up to 25, BG up to 16+ 5 from the dreadlord) to hold the line and smash hordes, the Dreadlord and the BG are meant to target the hardest unit, mainly bane knights with vampire count and regeneration BSB. The Dark Riders shall surround the enemy and fall into the back to negate CR, or hunt necromancers (kamikaze), the CoK and Hydras shall roll up the flanks, due to the combination of multiple attacks+ infantery core+negating CR.

It shall be a "hold the line due to BSB+General+cauldron and kill the first rank to not be killed" Infantery core army, wihle the mobile part of the army helps out to stop overwhelming units (dark Riders to block or charge into the back to break CR) and the harder hitting units (mainly the hydras) go with not less than 14+6 hatred attacks + attacks from the infantery core through the enemy line.

Short- its a bit of the old hammer and anvil story. I guess the only real danger are 1vs1 fights with necromancers summoning 2 new creatures for 1 killed or new units summoned in my back. Also not nice would be an high mobility vampire.

Im not afraid of an ber-Vampire, I`ll block him in Challenges with the Lord. Maybe it's even possible to damage the Vampire. I strike first, and together with the Cauldron there should be a huge output of potential damage. Killing Blow is not nice for Vampires^^ Even more, when the Dreadlord got a 1+/2+ save... and I can hit with another 4 attacks (BG left and right) on his vampire, as well with killing blow. Should be quite nice.


Might work?

VVar
28-10-2008, 18:29
Recently reconstructed my list, thanks for all the advice folks. My main mistake in that game was not realizing that without support, my black guard just could not take his grave guard/wight king.