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Overt_Spy
24-10-2008, 05:17
So in the new Codex, this guy has a few mentions. He's got his fan-club chapter, and apparently he's got some wicked powerful relics in his tomb. Has he ever been brought up before? Is he just another randomly named character introduced just to make a new chapter? Somehow I bet on the latter, but I'm interested in him, especially since the Eldar really really want that scepter thingie he's buried with, at least, they want it enough to wake up their avatar to get it.

So, any info or mentions of him in previous works, or BL novels? Any more than just an Ultramarine captain who won great renown following the Horus Heresy?

HeraldOfTheFree
24-10-2008, 16:37
Keith Robertson ('Eavy Metal Team) made up a chapter called the Sons of Orar, a successor chapter of the Ultramarines that won renown against Tyranids. So presumably Orar was the original chapter master?

Lord Malorne
24-10-2008, 17:35
He was according to the background, he founded the second founding chapter...sons of Orar.

From what I understand he is another ultramarine posing as another chapter character the codex makers...made.

The Judge
24-10-2008, 18:18
He was certainly a mighty hero during the Scouring (Harrowing?) that followed the Heresy. So good, in fact, he got his own Chapter named after him, and a real fancy grave.

I reckon we will hear more about him, maybe in HH book series?

Xarius
24-10-2008, 20:21
yeah when the smurfs get their inevitable sequels he'll probably be a captain

Col. Tartleton
24-10-2008, 20:29
Is the first captain from the heresy named? If not I always assumed it was Orar. Or perhaps he's a member of the Ultramarines who killed the [expletive] out of the Word Bearers to the point he got a chapter... So like 300 enemies+ and a dozen chaplains. ;) Like the Sigismund of the Ultramarines or something.

Eulenspiegel
24-10-2008, 22:21
I reckon we will hear more about him, maybe in HH book series?
I
hope
not!

:rolleyes:

Lord Malorne
24-10-2008, 22:27
I
hope
not!

:rolleyes:

Ditto
its not like the 40k-verse needs more Ultras
:rolleyes:

Rhaivaen
25-10-2008, 05:44
I have the mind to specifically make the back ground fluff of my DIY chapter in such a way that they have an issue with those smurfs :rolleyes::angel:

Apocalypse
25-10-2008, 17:55
I reckon we will hear more about him, maybe in HH book series?

They blew their chance withBattle for the Abyss. What a horribly irrelevent book.. sigh...

Adra
25-10-2008, 19:02
I dont think we will hear more its just something GW throw away and we can gibber over.

But what an ego....naming his chapter after himself. Thought SM had less arrogance than that.

Lord Malorne
25-10-2008, 19:07
*cough* sons of guilliman *cough*

Damn dirty ultramarines...

;).

FlashGordon
25-10-2008, 23:43
smurfs for the win you bastards! ^^, more books about Uriel Ventris(not sarcasm, they are great).

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
26-10-2008, 01:02
smurfs for the win you bastards! ^^, more books about Uriel Ventris(not sarcasm, they are great).

Someone call me?

I love the smell of Ultramarines hate in the evening...

Taipan
26-10-2008, 08:29
Y'know, I actually agree with you Ventris. Most of the Ultramarine hate seems to fall into two categories;

1. Bandwagon effect; 'I'm too retarded to either read any of the novels/background, so I'll just join in the bleating'
2. Envy; 'Well, my DIY/First Founding/Successor Chapter gets way less attention in the fluff and gameplay, so I'll just whinge until I get a pile of special rules and my own codex to placate my childish jealousy'

I think Marine armies are boring, but I like the background for them. I just wish there were fewer MeQ armies, because it totally distorts the game (everyone gears their army towards killing the proverbial Tactical squad).


As for Orar, he's just another 'lets pull a character out of our **** and hastily justify him' entry in the brand new Codex. Give it time, I'm sure he'll disappear or be more fully developed as time goes on.

P.S. Yeah, Battle of the Abyss is probably the worst example of 'lets make the baddies drooling-at-the-mouth retarded and the heroes impossibly awesome'. Some of the Ultramarine novels (and other BL stuff too, lets be fair) suffer from this tendency, and it's starting to **** me off.
Thats why I liked the Ben Counter Grey Knight series, the hero and his friends are losing right up to the end, when he just has to do something desperate and hope it works. None of this '10 bolter rounds to the chest don't hurt me' stuff. Oh yeah, and they actually run out of ammo on several occasions.

Sojourner
26-10-2008, 09:32
Orar is also a place, in the Gothic Sector if memory serves. The person probably came first, and the place is named after him. I find it a little odd that the Imperium's ok with idolatry in this regard, though. Venerating places, such as one's home planet, is fine because they're the Emperor's domains and thus is a mark of devotion to Him.

Fluxeor
26-10-2008, 15:43
IIRC some of the older fluff (and maybe newer, i havn't checked it all for 5th edit) said that Marines during initiation would sever ties with former friends and family (presumably so they focus entirely on thier service to the Emperor, one would expect this includes in many cases assuming new names) and in the newer fluff there is definately instances of Marines having names that seem to tie to places or items (such as the Smurfs 10th Co Captain Antilochus/Calgar's pimpsuit).
It's not entirely unfeasable that "Orar" are is after a planet/system rather than the actual person in the tomb who in the C:SM entry gained his recognition in the aftermath of the HH.. the chapter Sons of Orar are most likely named in his honour and i'm sure they arn't the 1st chapter to have been named in recognition of a heroic individual or Primarch.

The Judge
26-10-2008, 15:49
Look, much as everyone on Warseer hates Ultras (not myself... got an army of them...), they are going to get another book in the HH series - The Battle for Calth needs doing, as does Guilliman's death, and the Scouring that followed the Heresy.

Any three of those could feature Orar, and I'm looking forward to them regardless.

Mojaco
26-10-2008, 16:51
smurfs for the win you bastards! ^^, more books about Uriel Ventris(not sarcasm, they are great).

They're pretty cool, but they have practically nothing to do with the ultramarines. It could be any other chapter, especially now its only about this one captian that does whatever he thinks necesary to get the mission done (including ignoring the codex, working with chaos creatures/contraptions, etc).

Apocalypse
26-10-2008, 17:04
The hate came from how much GW poster-boy'd them on everything Marine... Now this codex comes out and goes on and on about their awesomeness... the biggest egostroke i've ever seen... It just feeds the fire against the UMs
as for another book... I loved the Uriel Ventris novels, but Battle For the Abyss so so terribly done, i'm wary from anything more coming from the HH series.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
26-10-2008, 23:29
The hate came from how much GW poster-boy'd them on everything Marine... Now this codex comes out and goes on and on about their awesomeness... the biggest egostroke i've ever seen... It just feeds the fire against the UMs
as for another book... I loved the Uriel Ventris novels, but Battle For the Abyss so so terribly done, i'm wary from anything more coming from the HH series.

How is it an egostroke? THEY WRITE THE BACKGROUND!! They control it! If they say the Space Marines are the bee's knees, then they are! I'm not saying it's right, or that it's always been this way (obviously it hasn't), but this is the direction it it going on. Roll with the punches.

And to be fair, I just bought and read through the Ork codex and they talk about how badass the Orks are throughout the whole thing, bringing entire sectors to their knees with their technology that shouldn't even work, by all rights. Plus, they have the NERVE to suggest that the Goffs are the biggest and best of all the Ork clans! What the heck is wrong with them?

Lord-Caerolion
27-10-2008, 02:44
I never remember them saying the Goffs were the best Ork clan. Perhaps the biggest (in the members individual sizes), but not the best. Also, they never said all other Clans wanted to be Goffs.

Apocalypse
27-10-2008, 04:33
Bingo. That is why I say that they have gone overboard with this whole UM thing... it's waay too much...

Raellos
27-10-2008, 14:48
Y'know, I actually agree with you Ventris. Most of the Ultramarine hate seems to fall into two categories;

1. Bandwagon effect; 'I'm too retarded to either read any of the novels/background, so I'll just join in the bleating'
2. Envy; 'Well, my DIY/First Founding/Successor Chapter gets way less attention in the fluff and gameplay, so I'll just whinge until I get a pile of special rules and my own codex to placate my childish jealousy'

I don't fall into any of the above, I just think that certain parts of the new book talk down on the other First Founding chapters a bit. I'd quote the passage I have n mind, but i just gave my mate his codex back.

The Judge
27-10-2008, 14:57
I have yet to come across the part that says all Marines wish they were Ultramarines... if someone can actually give a page reference, I would be grateful.

captain ceaser
27-10-2008, 16:47
I think its p24 last paragraph. I doesnt exactly say it but more or less implies it. Im an ultra player and i think the new codex is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay overboard.

Lord-Caerolion
28-10-2008, 02:16
"These Chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their geneseed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.

...Some, such as the Blood Angels and their successors, strive to be worthy of Guilliman's legacy, but their recalcitrant geneseed drives them ever further from it."

Page 24 of the Space Marines codex. While it doesn't state it outright, that seems mighty close to suggesting that if the Blood Angels didn't have the Black Rage, they'd be fawning Ultramarine wannabe's, and the more stable Chapters are all annoyed that they can't be Ultramarines because they have a different Primarch.

Seriously, what happened to Marines taking pride in their individual Chapters heritage, rather than now all Marines going "Guilliman, the Great Primarch! We love you! Calgar, make us Ultramarines, so we can love Guilliman even more!"

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
28-10-2008, 03:03
"These Chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their geneseed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.

...Some, such as the Blood Angels and their successors, strive to be worthy of Guilliman's legacy, but their recalcitrant geneseed drives them ever further from it."

Page 24 of the Space Marines codex. While it doesn't state it outright, that seems mighty close to suggesting that if the Blood Angels didn't have the Black Rage, they'd be fawning Ultramarine wannabe's, and the more stable Chapters are all annoyed that they can't be Ultramarines because they have a different Primarch.

Seriously, what happened to Marines taking pride in their individual Chapters heritage, rather than now all Marines going "Guilliman, the Great Primarch! We love you! Calgar, make us Ultramarines, so we can love Guilliman even more!"

The fact is, Space Marines (as per their background, at least) are for the most part a bunch of slef-less individuals who fight for the Emperor and for humanity. If there is a Marine Chapter that exemplifies all the qualities that a Space Marine should aspire to be, then the Marines would indeed want to be like them. This notion of "my Chapter is better than your Chapter" is mostly a mild form of competition, not unlike that between the different branches of service in the United States military.

It is only the most divergent Chapters (ie. Space Wolves) that dispise the traits that Ultramarines epitomize. That, and the hundreds of thousands of actual Space Marines players that for one reason or another dislike the boys in blue.

DapperAnarchist
28-10-2008, 03:21
"...Some, such as the Blood Angels and their successors, strive to be worthy of Guilliman's legacy, but their recalcitrant geneseed drives them ever further from it."

Seriously? The Blood Angels, like the Fists and the Wolves, are PROUD of their "failings". It makes them strong. It gives them an awareness of their fortune. It makes them them, quite simply. No Fist would wish for a Sus-an. Blood Angels know they have an unbreakable link to the Primarch, for they feel his pain and suffering. The Wolves have among the toughest of all training regimes. BAH I SAY!!!!

So, under that, the Chapters that would not want to be the Ultras - Blood Angels. Fleshtearers. Blood Drinkers. Imperial Fists (who, lest we forget, are the Praetorians of the Emperor Himself, second only to the Custodes among his guardians, and ASFAIK, the only chapter to recruit from Terra). Crimson Fists. Black Templars. Space Wolves. Wolf Brothers. Various others I'm not so familiar with.

Plus I can't see the Unforgiven striving to be the Ultras... Or, in fact, any chapter of the First Founding, or those close to them.

afshinbb
28-10-2008, 03:40
you forgot third kind of ultra marine haters, someone who doesnt want to be like everyone else. believe or not some of us relate better to the rebel archtypes than the heroes. is that news to you, hero?!

Lord-Caerolion
28-10-2008, 04:31
The fact is, Space Marines (as per their background, at least) are for the most part a bunch of slef-less individuals who fight for the Emperor and for humanity. If there is a Marine Chapter that exemplifies all the qualities that a Space Marine should aspire to be, then the Marines would indeed want to be like them. This notion of "my Chapter is better than your Chapter" is mostly a mild form of competition, not unlike that between the different branches of service in the United States military.

It is only the most divergent Chapters (ie. Space Wolves) that dispise the traits that Ultramarines epitomize. That, and the hundreds of thousands of actual Space Marines players that for one reason or another dislike the boys in blue.

I'm not saying they would despise the traits of the Ultramarines, I'm just saying that, in the spirit of the 'mild form of competition', as you put it, why would they therefore admit that one other Chapter is better than them in every way? They are proud of their Primarch. They are proud of their heritage. They are proud of their culture. When was the last time you heard an Imperial Fist player shout "For Macragge and Calgar"? No, you haven't.

As DapperAnarchist says, each Chapter is proud of its own geneseed. After all, isn't there a quote from an Imperial Fist going like "We are the Imperial Fists! We do not need to spit acid or hibernate! We crush our enemies!" Doesn't really sound like they're going "We're Imperial Fists! Our geneseed is slightly less complete than the Ultramarines, so we're not as good as them, but we'll beat you anyway...", they're saying "we're different, so what, we'll still kill you!"

The simple fact is, other Chapters may respect Guilliman, and value his contributions to the Imperium, but that doesn't mean they discount their own. What this codex implies is that all Chapters realise they'll never be as great as Guilliman was, so why bother trying? Marines don't see it like that, pure and simple. So what if their Primarch didn't write the Codex Astartes?

They still fought in the Great Crusade, capturing planets for the Imperium! They still fought in defence of the Emperor in the Horus Heresy, several of the Primarchs even helping to defend the Emperors Palace itself! Can the Ultramarines claim that? No! So why should the Imperial Fists, White Scars and Blood Angels just ignore that fact? The Salamanders won immense fame from the Wars of Armageddon. Should they just ignore this, just because they aren't Ultramarines? No! They're proud of their own achievements! Bloody proud!

Raellos
28-10-2008, 05:08
That was the section I was talking about! It does poo-poo the other chapters a bit. While I can see that later founding chapters would look up to the Ultramarines, I can't see them nor the First Founding chapters "striving to be worthy of Guilliman's legacy" over their own revered gene-fathers.

Lord-Caerolion
28-10-2008, 05:13
I can't even see those subsequent-foundings who aren't from Ultramarine gene-stock preferring Guilliman over their own Primarch...

andyg2006
28-10-2008, 09:49
Although there are loads of Chapters and they might all be different (and that only about 60% of the Chapters are derived from Ultra gene seed), the SM codex contains a little sentence which says something like "this book is the story of the the Ultramarines".

Lord-Caerolion
28-10-2008, 09:52
Well then why does it say so much about the other Chapters which aren't Ultramarines, and have different Primarchs? I don't buy that excuse for a moment. This is Codex: Space Marines, so it should have info on Chapters other than the Ultramarines, without turning them all into Ultramarine-wannabes. If I want only Ultramarine fluff, I'll read their Index Astartes article.

andyg2006
28-10-2008, 10:01
Okay, keep your hair on: It was not an "excuse" and I didn't come up with the reason why they did what they did...all I did was reiterate what GW had said - jeez.
Also, it doesn't actually have "so much" on the non Ultra-chapters...most of the other First Founding guys only get a special character and half of a page each.
Plus, even though the Crimson Fists get a mention and a special character, there is nothing about how they started (e.g. the equivalent of where Sigismund started the Black Templars).

The Judge
28-10-2008, 10:13
Okay, I've read the section on p24, and yeah, even to me, the Ultramarine player, it's too much. I was a long-time Templar player before this, and kinda wish I still was.

I can understand that this essentially is the Ultramarine Codex (Mat Ward said so much himself) so I can understand all the love, but would hope that in the *divergent* Marine codex's, they go out of their way to talk about how crap the Codex Astartes is.

I'm fairly tolerent of this kind of background creep, so long as it happens in *all* of the books.

heinrichvoncarstein
28-10-2008, 15:43
I hate UM!! The biggest strike at me came when calgar actually defeated the Avatar of Alaitoc(which btw is an army i collect). I mean, calgar isn't THAT good, he actually managed to defeat a living god! He even had less problems than fulgrim!:wtf: I mean, fulgrim is a primarch, and he had a harder time beating an Avatar than a bastard whore-son whose gene seed is diluted to the point of not working!... I mean... COME ON!!!!
P.S: Pardon my language