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Caine Mangakahia
25-10-2008, 13:00
I've read a lot of complaints about the dreaded VC list of Magical doom (VC Lord with 6 PD and +1 to cast etc) so I thought I'd throw out some of the army list combinations I've had to face that mop the floor with my " VC army. Usually played at 2000 points, these may not be the full list faced but will have the common elements. Take notes if you will. Not a "flaming" post (except where demons are concerned :) )

1. Demons:
BT or Tzench GD(Kairos)
Skulltaker or Khorne Herald BSB with Standard Sundering or Icon Dispair mounted on Juggernaut.
Herald of Tzeench
3 units of Horrors each with +1 to cast.
Fleshound unit
Screamer unit
Flamers

With 3 units of horrors and the Tzeench Herald, this army has magical defence and punch. Depending on whether or not the BT is flying around causing mayhem, the Fleshhound unit with Herald/Skulltaker packs the physical wallop. Everyone knows how awful the horrors are and the screamers fly across softer units with impunity.
*meant Flamers :)*
Basically flys circles around you and/or blasts you with magic.
Hate these guys.

2. Dark Elves

Noble with Pendant khaleth regen and 1+ armour save
ASF Black Guard with ring Hotek
Hydra
Black Cauldron

How a Hydra can hide and skirmish throuh trees when other creatures cant is a mystery to me, and its str 5 Breath weapon is devestating. No slouch in comat either, can have 11 Killing Blow attacks.
The black guard are a rock that other rocks envy, also dangerous in combination with killing blow.
Indestructable lord? 'nuff said.
Ring of Hotek? Leave offensive magic at home.
Black cauldron difficult to do anything about, usually hides behind rest of army, only most powerful of flying units can reliably defeat it.
Throw in assasins fast cavalry COK and bait and flee harpies where desired.

3. High Elves:

Teclis
Great Eagles
Swordmasters with Banner of Sourcery.

Teclis can reliably dispose of those precious magic items or blast threatening units with impunity thanks to his irresistable force casting and ignoring miscasts. He can be very mobile too dodgeing threatening units or movng into protective units (try a ASF full unit of spearmen with champion at 3 ranks).
Swordmasters are no brainers at 2 ASF str 5 attacks with hight WS.
Great Eagles make great charge diverters/Bait and flee units, giving Teclis time to dismantle the opposition.

Other great units are White Lion Chariots (Smashing!) and ItP White Lions (almost as good a rock as Black Guard)

4. Empire

Popemobile (War alter and Arch Lector) with VhS and Dawn Armour and Hammer of Justice.
Luthor Huss
Knights
Wizard with Crystal Ball and Orb Thunder
Flagellents
Stank
Cannon and/or Mortar
Gunners
Outriders

My personal creation, this list has some magic offence and defence. The Popemobile is a tough unbreakable unit that can take on tough characters or hold up entire units alone.
The Stank is about the same and flaggellents make a nice hold up unit too.
The Wizard is great for flushing out nasty magical surprises and assasins too (take that Shadowblade!)
Luthor Huss is a nice reliable character and great in a unit of Knights, and causing fear means any unit is immune to fear and Terror is downgraded.

5. Dwarves

Character Anvils(with oathstones)
Trollslayers
Ironbreakers
Guns Cannons etc
Gunners

These guys will shoot you to bits and mop up whatevers left.
Stubborn /Unbreakable war machines, good shooting
High WS T and Ld, unbreakable & Stubborn units.
Its hard to believe these guys were brought out during 6th edition.

Just some of my personal faves (or hates if you will)

Aurellis
25-10-2008, 13:05
I think defensive Caradryan/Teclis High Elfs, with tons of Sea Guard, Phoenix Guard and Bolt Thrower armies are disgustingly annoying so they're probably the army build that i dislike the most. The sheer amount of PD, the masses of shooting and the unkillable nature of the special characters just feels dirty when combined with ASF

I don't really mind the DoC, VC or other power builds as I've found decent ways of overcoming them.

Gazak Blacktoof
25-10-2008, 13:56
Any army that relies too heavily on a single tactic or troop type is a boring build in my opinion. I hate being bored.

The occassional game against an army that attempts to dominate one aspect of the game is ok but it gets boring very quickly and can be frustrating to play against or even to play with if your opponent has an army that can exploit the one-dimensional nature of the army.

vinny t
25-10-2008, 16:51
I think this is a fairly balanced army that can be sick....

Bloodthirster
Tzeentch Hearld with MoS
Tzeentch Hearld with MoS
19 Horrors with full command
19 Horrors with full command
10 Horrors with BoS
5 Flesh Hounds
5 Flesh Hounds
6 Flamers

10 PD and a good amount of shooting and combat. Not really a OMG CHEEZ list but more like a underhand threat.

FurryMiguell
25-10-2008, 17:34
I generaly just hate players that play gunlines. Tons and tons of shooty units, just sitting there, firing... Where is the tactic in rolling dice? I dont understand what is so much fun playing a gunline! All you ever do is roll dice (and most complain when they dont hit with everything in their gunline...)! If I see someone with almost purely shooty units, I tell him right away, I do not want to fight gunlines, and if his army is what it looks like, he can go ahead and pack it backdown, and Ill find another opponent...

orkz222
25-10-2008, 17:46
if not counting special characters:
2nd gen slann
skink priest for LOS
18" running lizard guy
lots of skinks with blow pipes
salamanders
some anvil troops like saurus, kroxigor
terror bomb - stegadon
flankers - flying skinks on flying dinos

magic missile spam + h&r skinks + salamanders + blow pipes, move forward get tear apart by the the saurus etc

14PD (i think) no miscast

Dark14
25-10-2008, 21:48
Tzeentch Daemons (points to record) i let people try to make lists JUST to counter it and they still failed.

Havock
25-10-2008, 22:47
I generaly just hate players that play gunlines. Tons and tons of shooty units, just sitting there, firing... Where is the tactic in rolling dice? I dont understand what is so much fun playing a gunline! All you ever do is roll dice (and most complain when they dont hit with everything in their gunline...)! If I see someone with almost purely shooty units, I tell him right away, I do not want to fight gunlines, and if his army is what it looks like, he can go ahead and pack it backdown, and Ill find another opponent...

Nah, there is a better way.
Make sure there are some good LoS/fire blocking terrain pieces on the table.
Hide everything, forfeit every turn. Mighty fun game he'll have ;)

Archaon
25-10-2008, 22:56
Is that a trend nowadays that special characters are played more?

Because i still haven't seen a single friendly game or tournament that allowed them so all the builds with SCs are not that common (not that they are better.. the SC are just better versions of the self-build characters from the book).

Havock
25-10-2008, 23:06
Well, they aren't really special anymore, more like "named characters". Most of them are also more like gimmicky characters on their level. Not necessarily better, but just different.

PARTYCHICORITA
25-10-2008, 23:12
Tzeentch Daemons (points to record) i let people try to make lists JUST to counter it and they still failed.

6 Units of dragon princes= countered

MonkeyLord
26-10-2008, 03:16
I think this is a fairly balanced army that can be sick....

Bloodthirster...

I think you immediately contradicted yourself as soon as "Bloodthirster" made it onto the list. ;)

Laurela
26-10-2008, 04:26
^ rofl

Dwarf gunline armies are really hated by me, they're absolutely no fun to play with or against.

Dark14
26-10-2008, 05:09
6 Units of dragon princes= countered

bolt of change=all knights dead 1 turn

Cobrak
26-10-2008, 08:18
I hate the bubonic court (skaven) and anyone who uses the Green Knight God i hate him

PARTYCHICORITA
26-10-2008, 13:26
bolt of change=all knights dead 1 turn

It's still 1 magic missile vs an entire army; even if succesfully cast every turn i doubt it could succesfully destroy every single knight. Not to mention DP getting in combat by turn 2 and the no so odd chance of a scroll caddy running around somewhere.

Tzeentch only deamons is annoying as hell sure, probably one of the most boring armies to fight against; but by no means unbeatable.

theunwantedbeing
26-10-2008, 13:38
Gunlines
,or any player who demmands a hill in each deployment zone in the perfect position to deploy all of their artillery and shooting troops in a position where they can all fire without blocking each others line of sight.

Character reliant
armies are generally a close second for me in most hated. Simply as such players will focus their entire game plan around keeping 4 character's alive and will have spent most of their points on those 4 characters. As well as using up all their rare slots as their only troops they want to use in the game, the rest is just there to fulfill the min core allowance and maybe eat up any remaining points they failed to spend on their 4 character's and 2 rare slots.

I dont hate magic heavy though, mainly as I get a chance to stop it. Rather than having to sit there and just take it like I have to against heavy shooting armies, and partly down to the fact that if the enemy goes magic heavy, there are going to be comparatively weak models(for the most part at least) worth a hideous number of points for me to get at.

Special characters
I do have a special loathing for special character heavy lists. Or lists that always include a specific special character (often as the damned general) simply as it's unfathomably dull to face against and there's no mystery as to what they are armed with or can do.
I'de much rather face a list where I have to work out what the other guy has, rather than simply knowing what they have.

Everything else is generally just a "challenge" to face against as things are generally not a definite in what they are going to get to do.

waiyuren
26-10-2008, 13:41
bolt of change=all knights dead 1 turn

Didn't the GW FAQ list ALL Tzeentch damage spells as "Flaming"? ;)

larabic
26-10-2008, 14:34
Didn't the GW FAQ list ALL Tzeentch damage spells as "Flaming"? ;)

Yeah a pure Tzeentch list cannot kill a single Dragon Prince unless they break them from pure combat resolution. Silly but true...

gortexgunnerson
26-10-2008, 23:19
2. Dark Elves

Noble with Pendant khaleth regen and 1+ armour save
ASF Black Guard with ring Hotek
Hydra
Black Cauldron

How a Hydra can hide and skirmish throuh trees when other creatures cant is a mystery to me, and its str 5 Breath weapon is devestating. No slouch in comat either, can have 11 Killing Blow attacks.
The black guard are a rock that other rocks envy, also dangerous in combination with killing blow.
Indestructable lord? 'nuff said.
Ring of Hotek? Leave offensive magic at home.
Black cauldron difficult to do anything about, usually hides behind rest of army, only most powerful of flying units can reliably defeat it.
Throw in assasins fast cavalry COK and bait and flee harpies where desired

Can a hydra skirmish and where can the extra 4 attacks come from? 7 basic, +1 from the cauldron maybe?? Whats the combo for the rest of the attacks.

theunwantedbeing
26-10-2008, 23:25
He's on about the handlers additional attacks.
11 is incorrect, it's actually 13.
The hydra is a monster and handler unit, page 67.

The handlers skirmish and pick their way through the tree's, the hydra follows (or rather is guided).
Failing that, it has 5 heads, so its 5x better at finding it's way through an area.
Failing that, it doesnt have any wings so they dont get caught on anything.

mattschuur
27-10-2008, 01:17
For me its Nurgle daemon heavy. Great unclean one, 3 heralds, 3 units of 17 plaguebearers and throw in some other things. That much regen and decent magic is touch. Only my apparently broken Dark elf army, 2 RBT's and 46 repeater crossbows) has pulled anything better than a solid.

War Altar and Stank with 2 cannons and pistoliers really ticks me off.
Thorek gunlines. although my Beasts love it. 4-0-0 against it.

One of my armies i was asked to not bring is 2 8 strong knightly orders with Warrior priests in each and led by Grand Master with Regular knights and captain with Inner circle. All backed up by 2 Cannons, 40 crossbows and two 20 strong ranked infantry.

matt schuur

crazywhiteboydance
27-10-2008, 13:29
Yeah a pure Tzeentch list cannot kill a single Dragon Prince unless they break them from pure combat resolution. Silly but true...

Actually Bolt of Change, Gift of Chaos & Glean Magic are all non-flaming.

Krom The Eternal
26-04-2009, 03:18
id have to say the tzeentch flying circus or the all black orc army from storm of chaos

fubukii
26-04-2009, 07:32
mono tzeentch army, meet ring of hotek game over.

in addition units with alot of mr, such as flesh hounds do great vs the list.

Cypher, the Emperor
26-04-2009, 09:18
Troll Deathstar, the one with Sigvald, Throgg and 40 Trolls.

bob_the_small
26-04-2009, 10:31
daemons with 30 horrors, kairos, skulltaker and flesh hounds... yarrgh!

Aurellis
26-04-2009, 10:37
High Elves magic/shooting gunline with Teclis guarded by Caradryan at it's centre, Thorek Gunlines, and Zombie Deathstars... *shudders*

Von Wibble
26-04-2009, 11:28
Gunlines
,or any player who demmands a hill in each deployment zone in the perfect position to deploy all of their artillery and shooting troops in a position where they can all fire without blocking each others line of sight.

Character reliant
armies are generally a close second for me in most hated. Simply as such players will focus their entire game plan around keeping 4 character's alive and will have spent most of their points on those 4 characters. As well as using up all their rare slots as their only troops they want to use in the game, the rest is just there to fulfill the min core allowance and maybe eat up any remaining points they failed to spend on their 4 character's and 2 rare slots.

.

Well, teh terrain placement rules allow any army that wants one to use a hill so unfortunately no complaints there. However, there is nothing to stop you placing a wood just in front of their hill. I share your dislike of gunlines but do think any army has the right to a hill in their deployment zone. Not necessarily a useful one though...

Character heavy - in the case of chaos, elves and daemons I totally agree. However, tomb kings have no choice in the matter if they want to be competitive.

My own hates are gunlines as mentioned. My other hate is knight heavy - though at least that one is more easily and interestingly countered than just hiding all game.

Reinnon
26-04-2009, 12:08
Banner of the World dragon - if its on a unit of dragon princes is pretty much immune to tzeentch armies.

I would say the most annoying playstyle are gunlines - i play a ghoul based army which can handle them pretty well (first turn - possible 36 inch charge on zombies if everything goes right) - but still is far from exciting to play against.

Ozorik
26-04-2009, 12:53
Any one dimensional list. Gun lines, blood knight deathstar etc etc. They are just crap games which are decided by luck to a greater degree than ordinary games.

I also hate min/maxed lists with a passion.

CaliforniaGamer
26-04-2009, 18:25
Can a hydra skirmish and where can the extra 4 attacks come from? 7 basic, +1 from the cauldron maybe?? Whats the combo for the rest of the attacks.

I think he added in the attacks from the handlers??

I too was "unaware" the DE Hydra was a skirmisher model, I figured it was a classic monster (limited to arc of visibility for charges).

W0lf
26-04-2009, 18:37
The Hydra skimishes but dosnt have 360 LOS due to US.

Monsters are effectivly skirmishers anyway as they can wheel for free.

For me its 100% Tzeentch Daemons, just played them for the first time and despite winning it was easily my least enjoyed game of fantasy ever. Seriously neither of us had a GG.

EDIT: i wrote vargulf not hydr at the top.. damn me fielding dual vargulfs ^^

Witchblade
26-04-2009, 18:41
An all tzeentch daemon list is basically a gunline army. The action is just moved from the shooting phase to the magic phase.

WhiteKnight
26-04-2009, 18:48
If we went into legendary battles, it'll definately be my favorite list to run, The 4 Dragons for one choice unit!!! YAY! Or the uber bolt thrower battery of cheese with 10 high elf bolt throwers.

bob_the_small
26-04-2009, 18:52
A hydra MOVES as a skirmisher, but it doesnt get -1 to hit for skirmishing nor does it have 360 LOS.

fubukii
26-04-2009, 19:27
A hydra MOVES as a skirmisher, but it doesnt get -1 to hit for skirmishing nor does it have 360 LOS.


correct the hydra needs regular los to charge, although it can move through terrain freely :)

Milgram
26-04-2009, 20:05
I hate any build that does not field at least one more core unit than necessary. there are two exceptions to that: themed armies and builds with few, point heavy core units.

selone
26-04-2009, 20:21
I'm almost sad that I've never faced a gunline :(

Gaargod
26-04-2009, 22:45
Don't be. They're not fun to play with or against. Dwarf gunlines are also by far some of the most reliable lists in the game. Lots of anti magic, no magic of their own to fail, very good LD to avoid panic and many shots. Good defensive troops too.


Star dragon lists can be a pain.

popisdead
29-04-2009, 22:38
mono god daemons.

Dyrnwyn
29-04-2009, 23:58
Most armies probably won't complain about it, but my most hated army at the moment is Twin Engine Lizardmen. Why? I play mono-Forest Spirits. Double Engine means that 20-40% of my army is evaporating every turn, and there's very little I can do about it.

W0lf
30-04-2009, 00:00
Kill the skink priests?

LKHERO
30-04-2009, 00:13
Kill the skink priests?

T2 with a As of 2+.

Throw all your attacks at him! He's going to fail something eventually :)

EvC
30-04-2009, 00:41
Getting there is usually the problem...

Dyrnwyn
30-04-2009, 01:09
Getting there is hard, and once I get there, I can't direct attacks at the priest, only at the crew in general, hence I have to eat through 6 T2 2+ saves before the priest is finally dead.

If I tailor my list, then I can take the Hunters Talon and A Pageant of Shrikes to try and snipe the priest, but those aren't items I would normally take.

Gazak Blacktoof
30-04-2009, 01:14
Why can't you direct attacks at the priest? You get to pick which ridder you hit on a monstrous mount with multiple ridders.

W0lf
30-04-2009, 01:25
You can target the priest.

Dyrnwyn
30-04-2009, 03:03
Bugger. That guy a couple nights ago was wrong then. I could have shut down his Engines in a couple turns.

exsulis
01-05-2009, 00:01
its shooting attacks that are randomized

StarFyreXXX
01-05-2009, 02:14
At a tournament an army that beat the kairos build army fairly easily apparently was a skink/krox horde with 4 stegs (2 ancients, 2 engines)....and razordons.

Sanjay

Arselskjut
02-05-2009, 02:11
if i dont recall wrong, but the cauldron states that it does not work on mounts, shouldn't the hydra be treated as such? I mean, its for the elves only, but ofc some people will bend the lack of specification to get killing blow on the hydra.

CaliforniaGamer
02-05-2009, 02:20
if i dont recall wrong, but the cauldron states that it does not work on mounts, shouldn't the hydra be treated as such? I mean, its for the elves only, but ofc some people will bend the lack of specification to get killing blow on the hydra.

why would you consider the Hydra a mount? That makes no sense to me.
No, definitely it was intended to work on the Hydra and its handlers. Doesnt work on mounts and the flying naked wimmen.

the_under_empire_clan
02-05-2009, 06:23
I hate the bubonic court (skaven) and anyone who uses the Green Knight God i hate him

hahaha ive had to fight him before to......funny stuff

Peregijn
02-05-2009, 06:47
dwarven gunlines.... i realy dont like dwarven gunlines
or goblin shamans... in chariots, backed up by 8 bolt trouwers

Jind_Singh
02-05-2009, 07:11
I've yet to hate = if the other persons playing a fair (ish) list I'll take out my greenskins/ogres/empire.
If the other list is a list of pants out come my daemons!
It's funny how quickly the army becomes more balanced the following week!!!

I actually find it's not the army that I end up moaning about, but the way someone plays his/her army.
When all that happens all game is your march blocked by flyers/skirmishers, zapped by spells/arrows/artillary, and then to top it off they move their units around constantly to avoid being drawn into combat it can get frustrating.
On the other hand your also been shown how it's done by someone who grasps the game so what can you do!

moose
02-05-2009, 07:42
Thorek, pendant lord DE lists, magic vamps lists, daemons in general.

However none of these would stand up to (2k):
Warlord
Chieftain BSB
6 x 25 Clanrat Warriors
6 x 25 Clanrat Slaves
2 x Warplightning cannons

sirbone
02-05-2009, 12:54
Most hated build... Any high elf list, ever.

I don't mind gunlines, at least not Empire gunlines, as when you get close enough without panicking and losing too many folks you'll be in prime position to eat them all up.

phoenixlaw
02-05-2009, 13:22
To the wood elf player - take forest spirits, the wards will keep you in the game against the engine.

Devil
03-05-2009, 18:27
@ The gentlemen earlier who said it takes no tacticts to play a gunline. Who are you to say what takes tacticts and what doesn't? Likley If there is a shortage in the tacticts department it is with you since you cant outsmart a simple gunline. The classic sign of a sore loser is someone who slanders the victor and puts into question the so called honor. Of someones list. I say no matter what anytime you lose you lost to the better tactitian for that game and the proof is always in the result.

bdub7777
03-05-2009, 19:56
Vampire Count Lists with 22 PD are always fun to play against

NOT

nosferatu1001
03-05-2009, 21:34
To the wood elf player - take forest spirits, the wards will keep you in the game against the engine.

Erm, the obviously magical attacking "cannot be dispelled" burning alignment?

fubukii
03-05-2009, 22:24
i highly dislike Karl franz on dragon/pope mobile, 2 stanks 3-4 cannon armies.

cgrams
04-05-2009, 02:07
Clearly, it takes "tactics" to play a gunline, but a lot of that is in the build... and the builds become pretty common.

"I say no matter what anytime you lose you lost to the better tactitian for that game and the proof is always in the result."

I'm guessing you don't play OK or BOC. I think you'd sing a different tune if you did.

whiskeytango
04-05-2009, 07:04
?I say no matter what anytime you lose you lost to the better tactitian for that game and the proof is always in the result."

hahaha...oh, wait, you're being serious? Thats a really common excuse that people who use really cheesy lists use to justify their wins. Sadly not all army books are created equal, and the same goes double for lists. o Often times a very good general using a balanced list from a mid-tier or less book will get decimated by a bad general power listing from a top book.

A good example is my 1st game ever with DE. I played a very, very good O&G player, and because i didnt know any better i brought a power list. My opponent had to concede by turn 3. I won, but i was definitely not the better tactician.

For the record, i cant stand VC raise/IoN centric lists. Zero fun to play against.

urien
04-05-2009, 08:05
correct the hydra needs regular los to charge, although it can move through terrain freely

yes- hydra needs los to charge, yes it can move through terrain, no- it cannot charge freely through terrain- it is treated like a giant when charging, so ruff terrain slows it down,

as to monster armies

for me its demons

keeper of secrets plus add handwepon torment blade, siren song, git that maks you take ld test in order to strike,
big block og plaguebearers plus herald bsb with minus 2 ld banner.
2-3 units of fleshhounds, 3 units of horrors, plus flamers and fiends.
ohh and flying tzeentch herald grr

its a horror on wheels for my mortal warriors.


cheers,
Urien

LKHERO
04-05-2009, 08:41
Teclis is by far the weakest mentioned in these pages.
Magic is just not consistent enough to justify 475 points on a T2 W2 model with no saves.

But Thorek Gunlines are probably the hardest to deal with for overall effect.

whiskeytango
04-05-2009, 08:51
... a high elf player would say that. Next you'll be saying that star dragons arent so bad cause they arent armed with machine guns.

just kidding. I agree, i'd happily play against teclis over thorek, if for no other reason than the extremely immature giggle i have to suppress everytime i see his staff.

Gazak Blacktoof
04-05-2009, 13:00
Teclis is by far the weakest mentioned in these pages.
Magic is just not consistent enough to justify 475 points on a T2 W2 model with no saves.

But Thorek Gunlines are probably the hardest to deal with for overall effect.

Magic is usually not consistent, that's not really the case when its wielded by teclis though.

One might be more of a pain to play against but they're both significantly under priced.

Nobody is handling out gold stars for being less unbalanced than thorek otherwise everybody would get one.

EvC
04-05-2009, 13:40
Teclis would beat Thorek most of the time anyway. Pit of Shades => dead. And if you can't see Thorek then you pit the most dangerous enemy warmachines instead.

Gazak Blacktoof
04-05-2009, 13:53
Facing off against each other Teclis would probably win but I'd rather fight Teclis with my armies (if it was one of those oh so common Warhammer life and death situations and I had to choose).

LKHERO
04-05-2009, 20:12
Teclis would beat Thorek most of the time anyway. Pit of Shades => dead. And if you can't see Thorek then you pit the most dangerous enemy warmachines instead.

So how exactly does Teclis target Thorek when he's hiding behind woods, out of line of sight in the corner of the board? Dropping Comets doesn't really work against it because you have to randomize, wound on 4s, then get pas the majority of armor saves, followed by 4+ ward.


... a high elf player would say that. Next you'll be saying that star dragons arent so bad cause they arent armed with machine guns.

just kidding. I agree, i'd happily play against teclis over thorek, if for no other reason than the extremely immature giggle i have to suppress everytime i see his staff.

I have both armies.. and from personal experience against a multitude of players ranging from casual and tournament, I would say that Teclis isn't a problem compared to Thorek. I've had no one walk away when I played Teclis, I've had 2 people pack up and leave after turn 2 because all they had was 2 units under half strength struggling half-way across the field in a 2250 game.