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View Full Version : Jump infantry now have clumsy rule!



noyjatat
25-10-2008, 18:31
Having today played with the new 40k rules we found an absolute corker that begs discussion.

If jump infantry "walk" into a terrain piece and finish their movement there they need to take a dangerous terrain test then before walking out of it they need to take another dangerous terrain test. E.g. a space marine pride of mankind is so clumsy when fitted with an assault pack he can now kill himself by falling over with it. Mega!

All because the rule wasn't specific enough or the fact that you can still walk wasn't taken into account.

As for the monolith discussion that has gone on forever please guys just role a D6.

The Base
25-10-2008, 18:42
Why would jump infantry walk anywhere?

Mojaco
25-10-2008, 19:02
So, they have a drawback. Seems fine to me.

marv335
25-10-2008, 19:19
No.
They only take the test if they actually use their jump packs.
If they walk, they roll 2d6 just like everyone else.

Dexter099
25-10-2008, 20:43
I agree with Marv.

Fay_Redd
25-10-2008, 20:44
yeah, Marv be right. to avoid DT checks models with jump/jetpacks can choose to walk into terrain, look at Dawn of War on assault marines, when they were simply moving they were hovering around on their packs (something which DOW2 has now dealt with) but when they assaulted they ran on the ground like any normal marine. The DT rule makes sense cos if you have a jump-pack on and you land in terrain your pack could catch on something throwing you flat on your face or could be damaged and explode at the worse end result.

Clang
26-10-2008, 05:27
the rule (p52) isn't particularly well worded, but yes the intention seems clear - the jump infantry dangerous terrain tests only apply when the jump infantry are actually using their jump packs (or equivalents)

keatsmeister
26-10-2008, 20:03
That's the way we play it, otherwise the game turns a little bit too much like George of The Jungle

Shrike. Shrike. Shrike of the Raven Guard, fast as he can be...
Shrike. Shrike. Shrike of the Raven Guard, WATCH OUT FOR THAT TREE!

:rolleyes:

keatsmeister
26-10-2008, 21:04
Seriously, it makes little sense to force Jump Infantry into a Dangerous Terrain test for the sake of moving as little as 1 or 2 inches. You can kind of see it for the likes of Ork Stormboyz and Assault Marines, but for creatures with wings who are treated as Jump Infantry, it seems rather odd and comical, hence my rather amused previous reply. I love my 40K games, but there are some hilariously gaping holes in logic with some rules at times :)

Latro_
26-10-2008, 21:11
I'v always found jump infantry have enough of a move (esp now with run) to totally avoid jumping into difficult terrain anyways...

But in the few cases when it does need to be done, pick up the bloody dice and grit ya teeth an roll! its the ard thing to do.

Grotsnik
26-10-2008, 21:33
No.
They only take the test if they actually use their jump packs.
If they walk, they roll 2d6 just like everyone else.

Please be so kind as to provide a quote from the rules that actually states this. :D

While I agree that this is the obvious intent, that is not what the rules actually say.

"..and they can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish." does not change the fact that they are still Jump Infantry and stiil bound by the difficult terrain = dangerous terrain test rule. :D

Yea I know, sounds silly. But that is what the rules say. :angel:

olmsted
26-10-2008, 21:39
common sense and what the rule makers intended win out on this one.

devik
26-10-2008, 22:47
common sense and what the rule makers intended win out on this one.

Indeed.

If you can interpret a rule two ways, and one way makes sense while the other is bizarre, the writers probably intended the former.

It's surprising how many people try to insist on a bizarre misinterpretation of the rules whenever it best suits them, though...

keatsmeister
26-10-2008, 22:52
Indeed.

If you can interpret a rule two ways, and one way makes sense while the other is bizarre, the writers probably intended the former.

It's surprising how many people try to insist on a bizarre misinterpretation of the rules whenever it best suits them, though...

I don't mind too much if they remain consistent with the interpretation if it later comes to bite them in the backside, but if they flip and flop to suit their game, then it gets to be a farce of a "game".

Paul Nexus
26-10-2008, 22:52
I have felt the horrible pain of jump infantry and difficult terrain. I jumped a 5 man squad into a crater in order to line up an assault. 4 died on impact...


"..and they can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish." does not change the fact that they are still Jump Infantry and stiil bound by the difficult terrain = dangerous terrain test rule.

Your post seems to contradict itself. Surely choosing to move as infantry is just that. Moving as though they were infantry, shortening their maximum move in order to avoid dangerous terrain tests. It sems pretty clear cut to me.

keatsmeister
26-10-2008, 23:05
The problem comes from the sentence about ending the movement in difficult terrain. It is a blanket statement, with no conditional clauses about ending a Jump Infantry move.

To be fair, I generally stop short to save the hassle, as I've found Jump Infantry to be great as an ambush force. Move it behind a solid piece of cover, then jump on the opponent without having to face down the barrels of their guns (overwatch never loked so attractive for your opponent).

However, if I need to get into cover, I'd always go for allowing a player to use Jump Infantry moves like Bikes get their Turbo-Boost, it's an alternative, not the default way to move. The way I see it, you jump an Assault Squad into a ruined multi-storey building. Does your squad use its Jump Packs to move deeper into the building? Nope. You're footslogging it

HsojVvad
26-10-2008, 23:21
common sense and what the rule makers intended win out on this one.

And can you please prove what the makers intent was for them to win this one out? Anyone can say this is the way it's suppose to be or that without proof.

Remember GW is a proffesional company, and been doing this for over 20 years, just go by what the books says. Forget it was suppose to be this way or intended that way. GW wrote it this way so this is the way it's suppose to be :skull:

Gutlord Grom
27-10-2008, 00:11
And can you please prove what the makers intent was for them to win this one out? Anyone can say this is the way it's suppose to be or that without proof.

Remember GW is a proffesional company, and been doing this for over 20 years, just go by what the books says. Forget it was suppose to be this way or intended that way. GW wrote it this way so this is the way it's suppose to be :skull:

HsojVvad, I thought you said that GW had no idea what they were doing on a regular basis? Unless you've changed since the last few discussions of the DA and SM codex?

Anyway, RAW is often complete foolishness. For example, when the BA codex, released, squads that deployed inside their Rhinos apparently welded themselves in because the codex stated no access points on the unit entry , and because RAW suddenly flipped common sense for being willfully stupid, BA Marines could not leave their Rhinos, no matter what evidence was provided from other Space Marine codex's.

But I very highly doubt anyone seriously tried playing it that way. No one would seriously go through each unit entry and try to find a damning typo which swings the game in their favor. RAW works when a rule is clear i.e. every unit with a WS value can assault 6 inches unless they have a special rule that contradicts this, such as being able to assault at an extended range. RAI is applied when the RAW result is bizarre as in the point of this thread. However this is not meant to say apply RAI to everything. Seek balance to the way you look at the rules and it'll work out.

HsojVvad
27-10-2008, 01:19
@ Gutlord Grom I tried to be sarcastic, but it didn't comeout that way.

I am sorry, I am just in a snoty moode latley.

Gutlord Grom
27-10-2008, 01:52
@ Gutlord Grom I tried to be sarcastic, but it didn't comeout that way.

I am sorry, I am just in a snoty moode latley.

No it's okay. I'm not much better normally. Sarcasm doesn't carry well unless its obvious on the internet..

Ediy: Just realized it... RAW for RAI.

cailus
27-10-2008, 02:19
I simply switch the jump packs off and have the models wlak into the DT. Not using Jump move so no tests required. It makes sense or have I confused the rules?

HsojVvad
27-10-2008, 02:28
I simply switch the jump packs off and have the models wlak into the DT. Not using Jump move so no tests required. It makes sense or have I confused the rules?


I didn't think you can turn off the Jump Packs on or off. You move 12 inches and that's it. There is no option to move 12 inches or "turn off" jump packs and move 6 inches. Or am I missing something?

cailus
27-10-2008, 02:45
I didn't think you can turn off the Jump Packs on or off. You move 12 inches and that's it. There is no option to move 12 inches or "turn off" jump packs and move 6 inches. Or am I missing something?

See post below.

Also you dn't have to mvoe 12 inches - you move up to 12 inches. The game has not degenerated that badly to enforce maximum movement yet. :D


the rule (p52) isn't particularly well worded, but yes the intention seems clear - the jump infantry dangerous terrain tests only apply when the jump infantry are actually using their jump packs (or equivalents)

HsojVvad
27-10-2008, 02:48
So would that mean if they moved less than 6" they are walking or running but more than 12" they are jumping?

Damocles8
27-10-2008, 02:53
So would that mean if they moved less than 6" they are walking or running but more than 12" they are jumping?

Which doesn't matter in open terrain. What you seek is taking a Difficult terrain test and moving D6 inches; vs moving up to 12" into difficult terrain at the expense of a dangerous terrain test.

Lisiecki
27-10-2008, 13:34
I didn't think you can turn off the Jump Packs on or off. You move 12 inches and that's it. There is no option to move 12 inches or "turn off" jump packs and move 6 inches. Or am I missing something?

no, no at all.
You also HAVE To move non jump pack troops 6 inches each turn, and move vehicles there full amount.
And if you have assault troops, and you want to assault some one whos 8 inches away, you'd better enjoy spending the rest of the game circling around untill there exactly 12 inches away

I mean really, whos to say how to interpret what GW ment when they said "Jump infantry can use there jump packs to move up to 12" in the Movment phase.

shakespear
27-10-2008, 14:15
Guys they addressed this in a FAQ back in 3rd or 4th.

Jump pack troops can walk (6") if they choose.

Lord Solar Plexus
27-10-2008, 14:23
I don't see what all the fuss is about.



"..and they can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish." does not change the fact that they are still Jump Infantry and stiil bound by the difficult terrain = dangerous terrain test rule. :D


What do you think that line means then? Jumpers can move up to 6" and do everything normal INF can anyways, right? So why include it? Probably because it means something. If we assume that jump INF is defined by using jump packs (ie, their mode of movement), then the problem goes away.

If there is a rule, we must assume it means something or things get ugly fast. This rule can only mean one thing though - it refers us to normal INF, movement and difficult terrain. This rule/reference then takes precedence over the rule explaining what jumping jump packers generally do in woods.

Therefore if they move as normal infantry, they also stop being jump packers, if only for that movement phase, or the line would be utterly irrelevant.

m14xx1
27-10-2008, 16:12
i dont even see why dangerous terrain tests are taken unless theres lava or something. ive trained with the army for years and no ones ever died from running through the woods, and much less vehicels. yeah maybe youll break a track, but dam come on.

Lisiecki
27-10-2008, 16:23
i dont even see why dangerous terrain tests are taken unless theres lava or something. ive trained with the army for years and no ones ever died from running through the woods, and much less vehicels. yeah maybe youll break a track, but dam come on.

So, when you were in your jump packs, you had no problem landing in trees?

Coasty
27-10-2008, 16:25
"..and they can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish." does not change the fact that they are still Jump Infantry and stiil bound by the difficult terrain = dangerous terrain test rule. :D


Yes, it does. That's exactly what it says happens: 'choose to move as normal infantry'.

Grrr.

kingofthesquats
27-10-2008, 17:56
Anyone who seriously argued that I couldn't opt out of using my jump packs for a move of up to 6" into difficult terrian would not get to play me again for one of two reasons:

1. They clearly have no common sense.

OR

2. They obviously want to win a little bit too much.

Democratus
27-10-2008, 17:58
Yes, it does. That's exactly what it says happens: 'choose to move as normal infantry'.

Grrr.

Just because a unit moves as a type of unit doesn't mean it becomes that kind of unit. For example, a Chaos Sorceror can purchase Wings which allow it to move as Jump Infantry, but it can still enter a Rhino because it's type is still Infantry. To contrast with this, if the same Sorceror purchases a Jump Pack it becomes Jump Infantry and can no longer enter transports.

So a Jump Infantry unit moving as Infantry is still Jump Infantry.

For the Dangerous Terrain test to not apply it would have to state "Models that are moving as Jump Infantry which enter or leave difficult terrain must take a Dangerous Terrain test". But it doesn't state this. It states that Jump Infantry models take the Dangerous Terrain test. So long as the unit is still of type Jump Infantry then it takes the test.

Anything else is a house rule until an FAQ deems it otherwise.

shakespear
27-10-2008, 18:54
Its been FAQed before. Maybe thats why they feel they dont need to bring it up again.