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Jonik
25-10-2008, 19:34
I've not been able to find this in the Big Book, so please point it out to me if it's there!

My friend is of the oppinion that army lists must be show before the game or it is 'unsportsmanly'.

I completely disagree, you find out what the enemy have when it appears (magic items etc), as it would happen in 'RL'. After the game, sure you can see the list, but not before.

A ruling on this would be great, and if there isn't one, what are your views on it? Do you insist on seeing lists before the game?

Talonz
25-10-2008, 19:39
No.

That would render a multitude of magic items and spells absolutely useless, and voids the 'hidden' rules of fanatics, assassins, etc.

You are required to model your units as they are equipped, including command. That should be plenty of information to satisfy most folks.

There is so little fog of war as it is, playing with open lists is lame in the extreme. But strictly speaking, there is no rule that applies here. The default appears to be closed lists, but iirc that was left unspecified on purpose. So play as you see fit.

Gorbad Ironclaw
25-10-2008, 19:53
There is nothing in the rulebook about it and the 'default' does seem to be closed lists but there are always big discussions about it. Mostly for how you should do it for tournaments. In many ways it seems like regional differences; with it being much more common in the US were as it's much rarer in the UK.

Lord Malorne
25-10-2008, 20:03
We do need our secrets :angel:.

We play closed list, I can see it a problem with...certain players, but a level of trust is needed, its either WAAC players (none in my area) or new players (a few :D) who do it though rarely on purpose.

theunwantedbeing
25-10-2008, 20:14
You reveal your full list at the end of the game, not before...of course you reveal anything mundane and apparent about the unit when asked, and your supposed to do that even if not asked if its not overly obvious.

Even in 40k there's no rule saying you need to show your opponent your list before the game.

Abduction
25-10-2008, 20:27
We used to plat with open lists, but recently we have started to play without revealing our lists before the game. And I promise you, it's much funnier.

isidril93
26-10-2008, 08:44
you need some surprises...just dont ceat

and show your list afterwards.

Leogun_91
26-10-2008, 08:53
A good idea is to make to lists, one which doesnīt show pts and so and only shows the things you must show (not magic items fanatics and such but the rest), then another complete list wich shows magic items and such as well, this could make him feel like itīs good sportsmanship while you still can keep things hidden

MonkeyLord
26-10-2008, 09:05
Well, I think Open List games suck. I really don't care for them. But here in the U.S., that's the rule for Tournament games, so you pretty much have to build lists which aren't contingent on surprises. Not so bad for Dark Elf players, who can deploy their assassins anywhere they want; But Orcs and Gobbos *need* some level of secrecy for Fanatics to be truly effective, since they are purchased on a per unit basis. Half the point is the surprise factor!

Shangrila
26-10-2008, 09:14
"no plan survives contact with the enemy"

I can see that seeing a list before would make it hard to cheat but if hes your friend i dont get it then.....

but i guess its like airsoft you just have to have faith your not playing a jerk.

Lordsaradain
26-10-2008, 09:20
Armylist should be written down and revealed after the game IMO.

Condottiere
26-10-2008, 10:34
Army lists are closed before and during the game; any questions regarding the units on the table during deployment and the game must be answered, though magic items and secret upgrades need not be unless previously used.

Thommy H
26-10-2008, 10:57
Depends how important the army list is to your strategy. If you play strict WYSIWYG with the models you have and your opponent is well aware of your collection and the combinations of magic items you like to take (I pretty much pick a combo for a character once he's painted and that's it for the lifetime of the model - if I take that guy, he comes with whatever magic items he always does) then it probably won't make any difference.

I prefer to decide things on the field of battle, not with an Army Book and a calculator. If an opponent wanted to see my list, it wouldn't bother me (although I'd want to see his too, obviously).

Frankly
26-10-2008, 11:12
Armylist should be written down and revealed after the game IMO.

Agreed.

I think its polite to show armylists before frieindly games but it not a must.

adreal
26-10-2008, 11:40
I would say no, but show after the game, it's just the way some units have to work. If say fanatics work like DE assassins in the next book (ie you buy them as a core choice and can place them into night goblin units) then it doesn't really matter.

In 40K it's an open list game, but, seeing as most wargear is in the main rulebook, secrets dont really happen inlist

Gazak Blacktoof
26-10-2008, 11:48
Its up to the players concerned or the tournament rules.

I've only ever played with a closed list.

logan054
26-10-2008, 12:05
i think the problem with open lists is that you lose some of the surprise, i dont think i would however lose any sleep over playing a open list.

Axis
26-10-2008, 14:04
I think you only have to show lists after the game. I also think that you are required to declare all mundane equipment on characters and stuff. I'll clarify what my units are armed with (sometimes halberds look like great weapons, champion might not be particularly easy to spot... or something like that). I won't tell what my magic items are. Though, to make this work you need to bring a list written down. That way you can show afterwards.

narrativium
26-10-2008, 14:21
I'd assume an opposing close-combat character would be armed with something... but how much information do you give on that armament? (Assume I will ask at the start of game.)

Let's say a magic weapon which is a great weapon -plus magic rules. Do you say he has a great weapon, a magic weapon, or simply not comment on how he's armed? (In a WYSIWYG environment, I can see what your infantry's armed with and I can see the character has a great-weapon-looking weapon, so some semblence of information doesn't seem unreasonable.)

Avian
26-10-2008, 14:50
I tend to declare mundane equivalents of character's equipment. So if a character has a magic great weapon I'd tell my opponent that he has a great weapon.

Axis
26-10-2008, 15:08
I'd assume an opposing close-combat character would be armed with something... but how much information do you give on that armament? (Assume I will ask at the start of game.)

Let's say a magic weapon which is a great weapon -plus magic rules. Do you say he has a great weapon, a magic weapon, or simply not comment on how he's armed? (In a WYSIWYG environment, I can see what your infantry's armed with and I can see the character has a great-weapon-looking weapon, so some semblence of information doesn't seem unreasonable.)

Avian's solution seems to me a good one.

neXus6
26-10-2008, 15:25
I'm of the opinion that what you see on the table in front of you (as long as your opponent tells you of anything that isnt WYSIWYG), is all you should know. It is supposed to be a wargame, a tactical thing and not knowing everything adds to how you need to play and how you can play, it adds an element of being able to bluff if you will.

If I was forced to play without that element I'd be kinda tempted to just play chess where everyone knows what everything does. :p
I know that's an exaduration but you get the point. :)

Thommy H
26-10-2008, 15:35
It's not really though, because who the hell memorises every magic item or option in every Army Book?

It's not like I look at a Bretonnian army and think "hmmm...I wonder if he has the Grail Shield? Well, since he's put him in that big unit the ward save isn't too useful, but of course he might know I have the Pageant of Shrikes which can single out a character and..."

No one thinks like that. There are too many variables to have a game of bluff like that. Most people assume that a combat character will have a nasty weapon, but don't think about it any more deeply than that. If they were going to charge in before they knew exactly what said weapon was, they'd probably charge in if they could examine the rules beforehand too. The "surprise" of having a magic item revealed to you at an opportune moment isn't really that interesting - it's just "oh right. I didn't know about that."

neXus6
26-10-2008, 15:53
Well I am mostly looking at it from the perspective of "do I have fanatics or not."
:p

Also if you play someone regularly and do some magic item switching about and other little tweaks between games I'd rather they were a surprise.
:)

Talonz
26-10-2008, 22:26
It's not really though, because who the hell memorises every magic item or option in every Army Book?

No one thinks like that.

Are you kidding me? No one memorizes them all, but there are a good half dozen items or item like choices in every army that I look for in most games. Most good players do this, or should.

Dark Empire
27-10-2008, 03:40
I've not been able to find this in the Big Book, so please point it out to me if it's there!

My friend is of the oppinion that army lists must be show before the game or it is 'unsportsmanly'.

I completely disagree, you find out what the enemy have when it appears (magic items etc), as it would happen in 'RL'. After the game, sure you can see the list, but not before.

A ruling on this would be great, and if there isn't one, what are your views on it? Do you insist on seeing lists before the game?


All house games I think should NOT force you to show your list. That could spoil some of the fun/suprise and that's what makes some good stories later on.

When your playing people you don't know I think SOMEONE should review the lists to make sure they're fair...not necessarily the other player of course.

SolarHammer
27-10-2008, 03:52
No.

That would render a multitude of magic items and spells absolutely useless, and voids the 'hidden' rules of fanatics, assassins, etc.

You are required to model your units as they are equipped, including command. That should be plenty of information to satisfy most folks.

There is so little fog of war as it is, playing with open lists is lame in the extreme. But strictly speaking, there is no rule that applies here. The default appears to be closed lists, but iirc that was left unspecified on purpose. So play as you see fit.

I agree with every word of this post.

zedeyejoe
27-10-2008, 08:05
I am in favour of showing the lists. I feel its the way you play the game thats important. Not what you can keep hidden.

Vilicate
27-10-2008, 08:24
I always play open list.

I think it avoids confusion, and unintentional/intentional cheating when "identical" units are involved.

"No, this is the unit with the War Banner..."

Embalmed
27-10-2008, 09:00
I've not been able to find this in the Big Book, so please point it out to me if it's there!

My friend is of the oppinion that army lists must be show before the game or it is 'unsportsmanly'.

I completely disagree, you find out what the enemy have when it appears (magic items etc), as it would happen in 'RL'. After the game, sure you can see the list, but not before.

A ruling on this would be great, and if there isn't one, what are your views on it? Do you insist on seeing lists before the game?

IMO your friend is wrong, how can it be unsportsmanlike to not show your list? He gets to have a closed list too after all, so there is no unfair advantage.

It really comes down to how your house rules are, but I would join the choir here in that I think hidden lists are much preferable or else many items are pretty much useless.

In our group we obvoiusly tell our opponents about anything that isn't 100% wysiwyg, but also tend to let on stuff like "this banner looks really special" or "that sword is ornate", but that's not really seen as mandatory.

Desert Rain
27-10-2008, 09:14
Hidden lists are funny because you never knows exactly what you are facing, but you will have to have rather detailed notes about which unit has which gear.
With open lists you know what you are facing and then it's your tactics and not you and your foes abillity to keep critical equipment hidden.

Personally I don't care which alternative I'm playing with. We decide which one we are going to use before the battle, so you can play with closed lists one day and with open ones another day.

KillbotFactory
27-10-2008, 09:31
I prefer playing with open lists for these reasons:

1. Human Error

I won't even bring up honesty on issues of similar units with different items/fanatics etc. but look at flat out honest mistakes. Sometimes in the middle of a battle you may forget how many scrolls you used and if your opponent is also unaware then a game changing mistake won't be corrected until the end of the game.

2. Repeat Play

If you only play once a month against a random opponent then this doesn't apply, but if you play in either a tournament or within a group of people then this is a big issue. If I play person X in my group with an army I like then my next opponent (having talked to X or witnessed the battle) will know all the combos I have in my army, giving him a huge advantage as everything he has is still secret. In tournaments, same principle if somebody's clubmate plays me in the first round, when they talk about their game in a break and I end up playing them later it gives a big advantage to the player in the know.


The biggest problem I see with the closed list enviornment is when there is asymmetric information, something I think will occur in almost any atmosphere it is used. I am also very unconvinced that there is a big plethora of broken items in the open list enviornment. Sure night goblins are a little bit less effective when you know what to expect but they still work fine as does 95% of everything else.

In the end of the day you can play how you want but I think the best way to win a game is with tactics not tricks.

narrativium
27-10-2008, 12:23
I always play open list.

I think it avoids confusion, and unintentional/intentional cheating when "identical" units are involved.

"No, this is the unit with the War Banner..."
I agree, that's a concern. I do try to ensure that whenever I have an army list typed out, the identifying paint scheme or modelling trait for the unit or banner is incorporated into the list (i.e. the ones in red have the War Banner). No different to noting which units include the fanatics, except I can't change it per game.

It's still the role of the other banners in the army to make the opponent think they're the War Banner, though.

Thommy H
27-10-2008, 14:54
Are you kidding me? No one memorizes them all, but there are a good half dozen items or item like choices in every army that I look for in most games. Most good players do this, or should.

By "good players", you mean "players with too much time on their hands", right? I'm not going to spend my hobby time reading up on magic items - I could be painting something.

Talonz
27-10-2008, 21:16
With open lists you know what you are facing and then it's your tactics and not you and your foes abillity to keep critical equipment hidden.


It is always about tactics, even more so when lists are closed.



By "good players", you mean "players with too much time on their hands", right? I'm not going to spend my hobby time reading up on magic items - I could be painting something.

Good generals then if you prefer. I would much rather read up on tactics, armylists, and armybooks then slap paint on models.

Lord 0
27-10-2008, 22:46
In the end of the day you can play how you want but I think the best way to win a game is with tactics not tricks.
I always thought of tricks as a subset of tactics.

theunwantedbeing
27-10-2008, 23:00
In a closed list, you can afford to not give your general a ward and give him the super magic weapon.

In an open list you cant afford not to give the general a ward save, as if you give him the super magic weapon your opponent will know he has no ward save an will take pot shots at him and probably kill him before he gets to use that super magic weapon.

That seems to be a huge problem with playing with an open list.
You cant take anything interesting as your opponent will know exactly what you've done and will be able to take full advantage of any weakness.
So you have to take a more uninteresting list instead.

It may well be a "trick" to bluff that your general has a ward save and isnt worth shooting at when he doesnt, but then again you'll never get to use that awesome magic sword if you don't use that "trick".

ASF banner?
That unit is never getting charged, ever.

Mage has the van horstmasn speculum?
He's never fighting anything of worth.

Ring of hotek on a unit champion?
The enemy is never going to cast into range of it.

Unit has magic immunity?
No spells are being cast at it.

etc etc
Nothing is ever "wasted" testing what the enemy has, you already know so you dont need to bother.
It's more a case of writing the most undefeatable list than being any good at actual tactics with an open list.

.H.
27-10-2008, 23:01
Doesn't an Open List make bound spells almost useless?

marv335
28-10-2008, 02:04
Open lists ruin the game.
Magic Items become worthless, banners become redundant, assassins and fanatics are ruined.
It destroys a large part of the game.

Vilicate
28-10-2008, 04:43
You guys crack me up.

All of these scenarios that you describe are hilarious.

It's a different way of thinking with magic items when you take an open list perspective. Yeah, you're probably not going to cast at the unit with MR3. Yeah, you're probably not going to want to charge that unit with the ASF banner with crappy troops.

What you do in hedge your odds. Don't want to fight that nasty ASF unit? Don't. Feed it crap. Cast your magic elsewhere.

Besides, I don't like winning the game because of a cheap trick anyway, which is what popping magic items out at the last minute essentially is. It makes your victories worth more (in my opinion).

SolarHammer
28-10-2008, 04:45
In a closed list, you can afford to not give your general a ward and give him the super magic weapon.

In an open list you cant afford not to give the general a ward save, as if you give him the super magic weapon your opponent will know he has no ward save an will take pot shots at him and probably kill him before he gets to use that super magic weapon.

That seems to be a huge problem with playing with an open list.
You cant take anything interesting as your opponent will know exactly what you've done and will be able to take full advantage of any weakness.
So you have to take a more uninteresting list instead.

It may well be a "trick" to bluff that your general has a ward save and isnt worth shooting at when he doesnt, but then again you'll never get to use that awesome magic sword if you don't use that "trick".

ASF banner?
That unit is never getting charged, ever.

Mage has the van horstmasn speculum?
He's never fighting anything of worth.

Ring of hotek on a unit champion?
The enemy is never going to cast into range of it.

Unit has magic immunity?
No spells are being cast at it.

etc etc
Nothing is ever "wasted" testing what the enemy has, you already know so you dont need to bother.
It's more a case of writing the most undefeatable list than being any good at actual tactics with an open list.
Here's the second post in this thread that I agree with entirely.

Embalmed
28-10-2008, 09:54
You guys crack me up.

All of these scenarios that you describe are hilarious.


Good we're all in it for the fun ;)



It's a different way of thinking with magic items when you take an open list perspective. Yeah, you're probably not going to cast at the unit with MR3. Yeah, you're probably not going to want to charge that unit with the ASF banner with crappy troops.

What you do in hedge your odds. Don't want to fight that nasty ASF unit? Don't. Feed it crap. Cast your magic elsewhere.

This is just the point we're making :rolleyes: those items won't come into their own if the opponent can just avoid them. Sure that too is an advantage but IMO many items aren't worth taking if the only advantage is that your opponent chooses a different unit to blast.

Also some items have the effect of revealing hidden stuff, items etc. What use are these with open lists? None.

Besides what you describe isn't really hedging the odds, you already know what you're up against. Hedging the odds would be to let a champion fight the challenge vs that mage coz he might have the speculum. That way you probably won't kill the mage, but at least you won't get your general killed either.



Besides, I don't like winning the game because of a cheap trick anyway, which is what popping magic items out at the last minute essentially is. It makes your victories worth more (in my opinion).

Many of us disagree with you on this. What you're essentially saying is that poker is a game of cheap tricks because you keep your cards hidden from the opponent.

Personally I wouldn't like winning because I knew a lot of stuff about the opposing army that my troops could have no reasonable way of knowing.

I think the uncertainty is a part of the tactical challenge, you are forced to make educated guesses about what the opponent might have and try to assess what errors you could afford to make etc. Much more of a challenge if you ask me.

Lord 0
28-10-2008, 10:26
I don't like winning the game because of a cheap trick anyway, which is what popping magic items out at the last minute essentially is. It makes your victories worth more (in my opinion).
See, to me, playing a game with perfect information like that makes your victory worth *less*. For me fun comes from thinking up lots of nasty tricks and surprises and I want my opponent to come up with all the nasty tricks and surprises. And then we both have fun trying to use tactics to detect and disarm and counter the tricks and surprises the opponent has.

Just a difference in play style, I guess :).

Greed
28-10-2008, 11:10
I am totally agreeing with the people who argue for closed lists, so i will not bother in repeating.

I mean, i am playing Dark Elves.
If i am not allowed to try and pull as many nasty tricks as i can, because frankly said that is what open lists do, then there is little point to play at all.
I love doing something completly suprising to my opponent, and i love it if he does the very same to me.
That is sooooo much more fun, if you ask me.
Plus assumption can make for very interesting bluffs. Or rather for totally wrong guesses from people who watched a game and want to play against the same guy on a diffrent point level or plainly assumes to find, what is to find in most lists (ASF Guard with Hotek Ring) and gets suprised bigtime when suddenly confronted with just that somewhere else :)

BEEGfrog
28-10-2008, 14:12
I always thought of tricks as a subset of tactics.

The technical term is "strategem" unless you are talking about the bucket of water over the door type of trick, or the even messier one with cling film...

loveless
28-10-2008, 15:53
As has been stated many a time in this thread, a lot of items and the resultant tactics don't work with open lists.

Plus, closed lists are a bit more, daresay, "realistic"

How often is the Dark Elf Dreadlord going to go up to the Vampire Count and say "Oh, by the way, I'm wearing this fancy pendant that makes me nigh-impossible to kill and I've brought a couple of assassins with me. Oh, and see that unit of Black Guard? They always strike first in combat. My subordinate over there, by the way, has a ring that makes casting magic just treacherous - thought you should know that, what with all your casting prowess."

Then, why wouldn't the Vampire be nice and explain his multitude of powers and spell out the unique abilities of his units due to their banners and magical items.

Heck, why don't we just list out our tactics while we're at it?

Lord 0
28-10-2008, 21:40
Heck, why don't we just list out our tactics while we're at it?
If you are within range of my Crystal Ball you will *have* to. Well, those tactics involving the unit/s within range anway. Tactics and your plans for the next turn *are* something you do not normally have to reveal to your opponent, right? :p.

KevinC
28-10-2008, 21:53
Should army lists be revealed before games?

--------What magic item allows you to do that?

Kevin out

marv335
28-10-2008, 23:43
Ring of corin in the HE book (which uses a HE spell)
I believe empire have a similar item
I think OK have one too (crystal eye?)
there are a few others too as I recall (from the last time this came up)