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wolfbyte2586
26-10-2008, 03:02
**EDIT**
10/28/08 Revision v1.1 See second page of file for changelog
**EDIT

So, having seen some silly Dark Eldar rewrite ideas out there, i took it upon myself to do my own rewrite. Dark Eldar were my first army, and i've been with them over two years now (with a short break for school, and to try out some other armies :P).

Mostly I left all the stuff people take now alone (warriors, wyches, ravagers, raiders mostly). They're great already, no need to fix whats not broken right?

I took some comments i saw other people posting and really tried to fix Mandrakes, Grotesques, and Hellions (still not too happy with these, so especially looking for comments on them).

Some decent changes to the Army rules (Prisoners changed a bit, the Piratical Raiders rule changed a little, and redid the Webway Portal rules), and some minor work on wargear (gruesome Talismans anyone?), Scourge, Talos, and jetbikes.

Specific stuff i really want comments on:


New Army-wide rules
Hellions
Mandrakes


everything else is appreciated obviously, but as this is a first draft these are the things i really changed that i'd like input on.

Thanks!!
~Wolfbyte

P.S. Right now the file is a Word 97 document, but please let me know if you can't open it and i'll get it to you in a format you're able to use. Thanks again!

Honorius
27-10-2008, 05:34
It seems too similar to the current codex. The new special rules are interesting. I'm not too fond of the tally but the webway portal could be nice. maybe d3 portals though. And why are Incubi so expensive? +1 A for 17 points? I think you need to change things around with the HQ. Dracon should be about 20 points more, get +1 A and have some kind of invulnerable save. Archon should get shadow field, a new special uber weapon (eg. poisoned weapon that wounds on 2+ and ignores armour, maybe instant death) and be about 30 points more. Wych lords don't need much changing, maybe just drop the drachite altogether though, and make archite better somehow. I think you should create a new character, Master Haemonculi. He gets special stuff like feel no pain to his unit (maybe an ap 2 flamer). Haemonculi should be dropped to elites. Haemonculi can stay the same but give feel no pain to the unit they join and make them about 20-30 more points. You may take a unit of grotesques for every haemonculi you have in your army. If you have a master haemonculi then you can upgrade one squad to uber grotesques. Grotesques have the same feel no pain but goes under different name. If haemonculi joins a squad of grotesques then they don't suffer stupidity. Grotesques can be +1 toughness (maybe 3(4) so S6 weapons still ignore feel no pain). Mandrakes can be taken as troops. Maybe make them ~12 points. upgrade for mandrake champ and can take agoniser. Maybe make them like Lictors (deepstrike into cover, can assault on landing). Maybe make them deploy like infiltrate and then use their normal special infiltrate rule. Outflank would be good. Wyches don't really need +1 WS. Warriors should be amazing I think. I would give all splinter rifles poisoned (5+) and make splinter rifles 18'' assault 2. Make the warriors about 12 points. Shredders, blasters, Splinter cannons and dark lances should all be more expensive by 5 points at least. Raiders should be able to carry 12 models. They should also be cheaper (maybe around 40 points). Night shields should be better (maybe 12'' instead of 6'' or maybe always glancing). Need a new vehicle upgrade that makes them more survivable. Slave snares need to be better. Reaver Jetbikes need to be cheaper, around 20 should do. I think they should have scout rules also, and make reaver jetbike upgrades for heroes give them +2 save in addition. Make Hellion squads 5-15. Give them the option for 2 blasters or shredders. Change hellglaives and skyboards so that they have a twin linked splinter rifle on the skyboard that they can rapidfire and charge. Make hellglaives 2 handed power weapons and give hellions an extra base attack. Maybe give them a rule that when they deepstrike they can assault. Make scourges fast attack and give them jet packs (so they can jump-shoot-jump). Give them options for blasters and shredders. Make them 5-15 strong. Maybe lower their points by 1 or 2. Ravagers might need a points change (I'm not sure about up or down). Give them an uber shield (makes it more survivable somehow). Talos needs feel no pain and maybe stronger gun, make it cost about 120 points, maybe give it fleet also. Those are just some ideas. I also had an idea about a new type of gun (perhaps for a new unit) that shoots nets and captures models. Shoot a small blast. Models under blast must take a test against their strength (eg a space marine rolls on a 5+, gaunts 4+). Models with strength 6+ are unaffected. If they roll above their strength then they are caught and don't get an armour save and are taken away as prisoners. Just some ideas.

The_Outsider
27-10-2008, 08:29
I really like it, except for a couple things:

1) The capturing prisoners idea is cool, but not warranted IMO.

2) I'd be tempted to give archons/archites WS7 - to repesent the added focus on CC.

3) Hellions and scourges could do with a slight points decrease (only 2 or 4 points) and scourge heavy weapons could do with a 5 point drop across the board.

4) Lastly, it would be cool if grotesques could take a haemonculus as an upgrade character to meet the IC requirements to get a raider.

Overall it is nothing truly groundbreaking from what we have now, but it is certainly a step in the right direction, if not just for tightening up the rules. Though I really like the idea of seizing the initive on a 5+ as opposed to 6.

DrazharMasterOfBlades2
27-10-2008, 09:55
I like these new rules thanx for posting them it gives us DE players a breath of relief that they haven't changed them drastically.

One thing thats pissing me off
45 pts for one incubi ? this is enough to get me put off haveing them:cries:.

Be a champ and change it to 30;)

J-E-D
27-10-2008, 11:03
I would say 30 is still too much as the draon is 35, and is better than the incubi in everything apart from save on the stat line

The_Outsider
27-10-2008, 17:56
30 is still way too much for incubi, even at I6. 25 with plasma grenades (the rest of it is same as now) is perfectly fine.

Vaktathi
28-10-2008, 00:18
After an initial cursory read through, a couple things stuck out the me, especially the prisoners thing.

Potentially, you could kill just one Ork squad in CC (hard, but not too hard), or 3 IG squads (not hard) and get all those extra rules. It also seems kinda odd when fighting certain armies, what are DE going do to with Tyranid, Daemon or Necron Prisoners (assuming they don't fade out, return to the warp, die after getting cut off from hive mind-etc)?

A couple other initial things:

Scythes, when do these activate? Do they hit at init 10 or 1 or something else? It matters as to would still get its attacks. Also I think automatically taking an S5 hit is a bit much, depending on the enemy attacking it, maybe "wounds on an X+" would be better? Otherwise T3 units are going to get annihilated trying to assault DE vehicles.

With the Nightmare doll, two things. First, there is no specific roll to go first, its for deployment, hence why similar INQ gear doesn't work anymore. Second, given that they are already Siezing the Initiative on a 5+, an army with this has a very very very good chance of going first regardless, that may need a bit of looking at.

Remove the 2handed weapon restriction from jetbikes, this no longer exists in any other book.

Reduce Talos to like 75pts. Given that it lacks MC benefits for the most part, it could be cheaper.

For Ravagers, disentegrators may need to be increased in cost given the new blast rules, with a single blast they aren't that great, but multiple blasts make the new blast rules astounding.

You may want to have some sort of option to allow Reaver Jetbikes as Troops.

Agonizers should cost more than Punishers, as Agonizers will, at worst, be on par with punishers and typically better, especially as they allow a 2nd CCW.

With Grotesques, the Terrifying Opponent, while kinda cool, also seems odd (if something has a chance to stay against a Daemon Prince or Bloodthirster, even if only on 2's, it should have a chance against Grotesques). I think a further negative modifier may be more appropriate.

The webway portal is really intense, I think you and I should play it a bit (whenever I get back down to SD), but it may need to get toned down, especially in objective games.

overall, looks cool though.

wolfbyte2586
28-10-2008, 08:10
thanks for the feedback all, heres some responses:

Things i changed based on responses:
-Incubi price typo corrected to 25
-Capturing Prisoners rule re-written
-Wych Lord on Jetbike allowed to take Reaver Jetbike retinue
-Reaver Jetbike 2h weapon limitation removed; added 2h weapons to upgrade options for models that can ride Jetbikes
-Reduced Price of Hellion, Hellion Succubus, Scourge, and Scourge weapon options
-Added option for Grotesques to take Haemonculus as character
-Changed and clarified “Scythes” vehicle upgrade

Things id appreciate additional discussion on:
-Capturing Prisoners: I really wanted something to make the army feel like it was meant to capture prisoners. I changed it to a new rule that id appreciate comments on.
-WS 7 on Archon/Archite... would this also involve increasing the cost? What do others think?
-I just rewrote the Nightmare Doll so it clarified. All of the deployments state something akin to whoever rolls highest chooses to go first or second, then chooses where to deploy (correct me if im wrong but i thought i looked that up when i rewrote this wargear).
-Will consider reducing Talos cost, they seemed decently priced to me. Anyone else think Talos are too expensive?
-Ravager weapon cost increase-Good point, will take that in mind for future revisions.
-Agonizer cost > Punisher - Hmmm never considered this. But a Punisher on a jetbike with drugs and Animus could end up with an S6 Lord BEFORE drugs! Might need to be adjusted however
-Any other opinions on Grotesques Terrifying Opponent rule? I've always liked the auto fall back but i never used them either so... other opinions would be most welcome.

Things im looking for Playtesting of:
-Nightmare Doll plus the Piratical Raiders rule: OP?
-DEFINITELY looking for playtesting of the new WWP rules... can definitely see the potential for abuse.

Thanks The_Outsider, and no i wasn't going for anything truly groundbreaking, just a slight redo of the worse aspects of the book and tightening up of the rules, as you say.
Thanks to Vaktathi as well. I'm sure we'll have many lengthy discussions of this and many playtests yet to come.
Thanks to everyone else for comments. Sorry to Honorius that i didn't comment on your post so much, but its really hard to read that. If you could edit your post and clean it up a bit id be happy to take all that into account, but i lost my place three times while reading it the first time i tried.

Ayestes
29-10-2008, 03:12
This thread has a bunch of stuff I had in my minidex: http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154896 it's just unfortunately I can't find the actual copy of it.

I'll have to look through your codex more when I have time.

Something I didn't put in the mini-dex but had a concept of was making Splinter Rifles wound on a 4+ and Splinter Cannons wounding on a 3+. I imagine it would simply rip apart Monstrous Creatures though... (although fluff wise the poison's probably would). Keep in mind my rifles were 18" Assault 2 as well. I just wonder how this would apply to the army as whole. It seems most troops across the new codices have been beefed up and and made more effective per point. Heck back when the Dark Eldar codex was written if I recall correctly the regular weapon was strength 3 rather then strength 4 as well. Is an 8 pt Warrior with an 18" 4+ Poisoned AP5 Assault 2 BS4 weapon overpowered? Maybe 10 points?

The_Outsider
29-10-2008, 13:17
-WS 7 on Archon/Archite... would this also involve increasing the cost? What do others think?


For a race that is supposed to relish close combat and can hone their skilsl far beyond even a space marine, does having the same WS as a SM captain make sense?

I'm inclined to give WS7 for free, just to reflect that (as WS7 does very, very little in game) or for a modest 5 point increase.

wolfbyte2586
29-10-2008, 17:47
hmm that is an excellent point. I hadn't compared to many other codexes, but the leader of a Kabal or Wych Cult would almost certainly be (at least a little) more skilled than an SM Captain. And even if the lord boosted his WS to 8 with drugs, it wouldn't affect close combat except against WS 7 or higher models.

Thanks Outsider, i think i'll do that in my next batch of revisions. I'm working on something for Hellions to make them worthwhile. Something like:

Hellglaive: +1 S on the charge, rolls to hit during any close combat of a "6" will auto-wound and/or inflict a -1 penalty on armor save. (aka if you have 3A on the charge, roll a 6, 5, and 1 to hit, you'd roll one die to wound, and if that wounded the enemy would make one Armor Save as normal and one at a -1 penalty, so a 3+ would become a 4+).

Then i'd reconsider the points cost, make them 12-14 each i think.

What do you guys think?

The_Outsider
29-10-2008, 22:13
Hellglaive:[snip]

What do you guys think?

I'm thinking hellglaives should be 2 handed (as now), but confer +1S all the time and be poisoned.

It doesn't suddenly grant them the ability to eat marines, but it does make them a viable CC fast attack choice, where I see reavers being a more general choice or the shooty route.

---

On the agoniser versus punisher debate, just make them both 20 points and give the tormentor helm for free with the punisher. As you say a clever player will be getting huge strength on a bike (though i'm inclined to not give +1S, but meh), it stops the archon being one of the few dedicated MC killers in the game, while at the same time being fairly effective against marines.

I'm also tempted to make the agoniser poisoned, simply because of its current fluff description, but i'd rather not do that when you're looking at a 5-10 point increase in cost.

Zanzibarthefirst
29-10-2008, 22:54
an idea for mandrakes coudl be allowing the Decapitator style character to be taken as an upgrade for a mandrake squad.

For simplicity:
Decapitator(ish) 60pts ws5 BS5 S3 T3 W2 I6 A2 Ld9 Sv5+

splinter pistol, decapitator

decapitator: power wepaon, rolls of a 6 count as strength 6.


30pts incubi are a must: 45 pts is way to steep
shadow skinned: 2+ to cover save
Master infiltrator: him and his madrake squad can infiltrate instead of strikign from the shadow and can re-roll the dice for chosing sides when outflanking.

Ayestes
31-10-2008, 14:28
I personally liked the idea of Hellglaives just being a 2h Splinter Rifle that confers +1 S to the user. The Hellion Skyboard on the other hand confers Furious Charge and Hit and Run. This would turn Hellions into a fast, charging-based unit which darts in and out of combat for maximum effect.

I think the Agoniser is meant to be a poisoned weapon. What's wrong with the poison being a paralytic, neural shock delivery? Remove the chance at taking down vehicles and it's fine as a poisoned weapon. Besides, Haywire Grenades provide the effect and likely should be stock on all Arch and Drachs. Maybe even Sybarites and Succubi.

Ayestes
31-10-2008, 20:50
Ah, I found my mini-dex.