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Sir Charles
27-04-2005, 05:16
All right this is mainly just to make sure that my group and I are doing combat right. Alright so what I want to know is if during combat the entire first rank in a unit is killed, that unit is still able to attack back right? It's just that from reading some of what I have seen posted here on Portant it seems that some people play it as that if the first rank is killed the unit can't attack back, and I was wondering if that is the correct method.

Thanks in advance for any help.

BullBuchanan
27-04-2005, 05:51
if the first rank is killed and you're unit cannot fight in multiple ranks(ie spears) then only your champion gets strikes back if you have one. This is one reason why its always worthwhile to have a champion, especially in weedy units, so that you always get at least two attacks in.

Snoozer
27-04-2005, 12:27
no, dead men can't strike. If some of youre guys get killed those guys dont hit back, only the ones that survive (the champion usually always survives, because no one wants to waste hits on him).

example: 20 orcs charge on 20 empire swordmen. both have 5 models in front row, orc player hits with all 5, he kills 2 swordmen and only 3 of them now hit back, lets say they kill 1. they pass the break test and they fight another round, but now the sordmen stike first because they have bigger Initiative, they kill now 3 (they are lucky), the 2 orc dont kill any and they lose and break.

that's why initative is somewhat important (not much, but still) if the dead men would stike back, why would there even be initiative stats at all.

Jedi152
27-04-2005, 12:46
Do you not take casualties from the back?

Remember units in combat don't just stand in straight lines, it represents a vicious, swirling combat. The dead mens comrades will push forward to take the spaces, and pick up banners etc if the bearer has fallen.

Major Defense
27-04-2005, 12:50
no, dead men can't strike. If some of youre guys get killed those guys dont hit back, only the ones that survive (the champion usually always survives, because no one wants to waste hits on him).

I would agree that killing the champion is less important when your plan involves breaking that unit from close combat - and then running them down like the dogs that they are! There are exceptions. Say you're fighting a stubborn or unbreakable unit and you don't want that champion attacking back every round. If you don't have a champion/character to challenge him then you would benefit from killing him ASAP - especially if you have higher initiative to clear out ranks in further rounds of combat. Also, when I'm fighting beast herds I tend to take out their uber-champion as quickly as possible because he gives the unit +1 leadership and that's -2 on their break test from one wound!

Major Defense
27-04-2005, 12:53
Do you not take casualties from the back?

Yes, you remove casualties from the back for the purposes of staying organized. The actual model killed is one from the front rank and taking one from the back represents the models behind moving up to take his place but they don't get to attack that round (here's the fluff) because they are too busy moving up and/or picking up standards and instruments.

mageith
27-04-2005, 15:07
All right this is mainly just to make sure that my group and I are doing combat right. Alright so what I want to know is if during combat the entire first rank in a unit is killed, that unit is still able to attack back right? It's just that from reading some of what I have seen posted here on Portant it seems that some people play it as that if the first rank is killed the unit can't attack back, and I was wondering if that is the correct method.

Thanks in advance for any help.
Models in base contact at the beginning of the turn (or have a special rule like spears) are the ones that get to strike and strike back and also take the wounds. This is true both for first attacker and second attacker. If they are killed, then they can't. Models are physcially removed from unengaged ranks, if possible but the actual killing/casualty falls in the front ranks.

If there are different types of models (character/rank and file/champion) the Attacker needs to designate the target. If he doesn't, it is universally accepted that the Attacker is attacking the Rank and file right in front of him.

If more rank and file are killed than are in the front rank other exactly the same models step forward (in a virtual sense) but only to die.

BTW, I always 'waste' one attack on a champion.

Ith

Sir Charles
27-04-2005, 19:49
All right, thanks for the information, looks like we have been playing "wrong" for the past 2 years. Ah well, might as well just say it is a house rule from now on.

BullBuchanan
28-04-2005, 07:24
the only problem with doing that is theres specific items and magic in the game that allow casualties to strike one last time before they are removed. Also if you dont remove casualties and you charge a heavy unit you will get owned because nothing you do has an impact on the round. Honestly I'd go about telling my opponent that theres a new rule that needs to be implemented.

Its all right in the rulebook btw.

The Phoenix
28-04-2005, 08:12
If you cause more wounds than there are rank and file left, does the champion die as well, or does he live on to take a break test at the end of combat?

-Phoenix

BullBuchanan
28-04-2005, 08:25
the champion lives as stated above. For purposes of hits and wounds he is not counted with the rank and file.

Atrahasis
28-04-2005, 11:30
the champion lives as stated above. For purposes of hits and wounds he is not counted with the rank and file.

No, wounds cannot pass from teh champion to the unit, but wounds can certainly pass the other way, as the champion is still rank and file, even if he is special rank and file.

peteratwar
28-04-2005, 13:11
It follows therefor that if enough wounds are caused to kill ALL the R&F (which includes any champion) the champion will die.

Nore there is not rule which states you MUST target the Champion to kill him, only that you MAY.

MarcoPollo
04-05-2005, 00:21
This is why I always "waste" one attack on a champion. I usually would put the attack with the best chance of a kill on a champion.

But what I would like to know is when do you declare who you are attacking. Do you allocate at the beginning of the combat phase or when the initiative determines who roles. This can be potentially important because you may allocate too many attacks to a hero and wind up killing it but then loosing combat.

Major Defense
04-05-2005, 00:56
But what I would like to know is when do you declare who you are attacking. Do you allocate at the beginning of the combat phase or when the initiative determines who roles. This can be potentially important because you may allocate too many attacks to a hero and wind up killing it but then loosing combat.

Dunno if this follows the rules 100% but it might...

The model with the highest initiative (usually a character or unit champion) allocates their attacks and then rolls hits and wounds. Then the model(s) with the next highest initiative allocate their attacks and then roll hits and wounds. Obviously everyone can't declare at the beginning because some of them won't be around to make their attacks.

mageith
04-05-2005, 04:15
But what I would like to know is when do you declare who you are attacking. Do you allocate at the beginning of the combat phase or when the initiative determines who roles.

Its not perfectly clear. I suggest going by initiative.



This can be potentially important because you may allocate too many attacks to a hero and wind up killing it but then loosing combat.
Many players think that's how it should be. Its a gamble.

Ith

Lord Lucifer
05-05-2005, 13:11
Only two ways to kill a Champion:
1. Target him seperately
2. Cause enough wounds to kill every model remaining in the unit (say three models left, one is a champion, don't designate attacks to the champion just chop R'n'F, if you cause three or more wounds, the Champion kicks the bucket)

Of course, the owning player could simply choose to remove the champion in place of an R'n'F trooper (like the Standard Bearer, for example), but that's up to the owner.

When it comes to allocating your attacks, you allocate when you roll. Work out each Initiative step (after charges of course, and again before Great Weapons and other such rules) as it comes.
The only difference is a Challenge, which comes at the start of the combat phase


However, you're entirely free to play by the house rule, in the case of Champion survival, to allow him to ignore carried-over wounds from R'n'F if you're wanting to go for the 'heroic last stand' kind of thing... the chances of him passing a successful break test in such circumstances are slim enough for the house rule to have little impact on the game :p