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View Full Version : DA vs. C:SM in actual games



Victomorga
27-10-2008, 00:12
I REALLY don't want to start another complaint-based support group thread, but after seeing all the ire and sorrow poured out across the web by my fellow DA players who feel double-crossed, shortchanged, or whatever by GW in regard to the new C:SM, I would like to hear about actual REAL-LIFE experiences with codex marines versus dark angels.

I am interested in hearing actual hands-on experiences regarding the differences between the two army lists when they've met head-to-head, because the issue has been so thoroughly and dramatically talked out as theory on the web:

-have you played either side in a game of dark angels versus codex marines (with the new codex)?

-how many times?

-who won, and how did it go?

-in your opinion, did the disparities between the codices (LR transport capacity, troop / weapon costs, etc.) become a factor in the final result of the game?

-(regarding the last question) in what way were the disparities an issue (i.e. how did they manifest themselves specifically in the game)?

-what, if any, of the unique aspects of the DA codex served as a counterbalance to the new equipment, etc. in the new C:SM?

-please include any other details / anecdotes FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE (repeat: not what you think or feel, and not your abstract opinion) you think are relevant to the balance or lack thereof between the two codices / army lists.

thanks! please keep things civil, and stick to experiences you've had or witnessed, not mathematical breakdowns, theories on what would happen, or anything like that.

HsojVvad
27-10-2008, 00:37
As said in anthour post, someone said that the DA beat SM twice, but that was with RW/DA. I like to see a battle where no RW and DW are involved.

Ozybonza
27-10-2008, 02:40
I think with no RW/DW, DA are at a definite disadvantage. I play double wing and do quite well, but my power armoured guys have been on the shelf for a few months now.

Warforger
27-10-2008, 04:25
Well firstly, why would they not have double wing? I mean that's like buying an army and not exercise its skills, one wing is fine, but others to me, are a bit foolish to play that kind of army, like Blood Angels without assault marines or Death Company.

UncleCrazy
27-10-2008, 04:26
My local gaming group has a fair mix of C:SM players and C:DA/BA players. I don't see any big advantage one way or the other.

Starchild
27-10-2008, 06:12
My local gaming group has a fair mix of C:SM players and C:DA/BA players. I don't see any big advantage one way or the other.

That's the funny thing about 40k. What may seem like huge advantages or abilities on paper, don't always hold up in actual games.

The other thing is, I think 40k gets boring when it's SM vs. SM so often. DA and BA are just fine vs. Xenos, Chaos, and Inquisition. I don't think we'd get as many complaints if the game stayed true to 'fluff', i.e. no SM vs. SM games allowed.

Unfortunately 40k is devolving into billions of SM|s ruling the galaxy, so the game may as well be called 30k and revolve around the Horus Heresy. :rolleyes:

AngryAngel
27-10-2008, 06:31
The power gap only really appears when you play DA vs SM. I haven't played such a game yet, and probably will do so very rarely. We don't have so many marine players around I have to play against them, I can pick my opponent as it is.

The powerlevel debate however is tired, and old. Lets leave it rest.


All I'll say though is the real power of a SM list, should be joe marine. Even if it is DA, DA is more then just DW and RW so saying to not include them = bad is hogwash. You never had to before, and shouldn't have to now.

The fact our Battle comapnies size up poorly vs vanilla marines is simply bad planning on GW's part, that is all. I have no doubts we'll be brought into line in many years time, as we had been before.

DURENDIN
27-10-2008, 10:12
Going on like for like pointswise

10 Marine Tactical Squad with Vet Sgt, Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon, Plasma Gun and Missile Launcher - 220 points.

10 Chaos Marines with Asp Champ, Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon Plasma Gun, Missile Launcher - 220 points.

Now discount the cost of Chaos Terminators v Deathwing and you'll see that the two codexes have a very similar structure due to being written hand in hand once you start to fill out all your army choices. How this plays out depends on how you tip your units.

Lord Damocles
27-10-2008, 10:46
Going on like for like pointswise
Forgive my ignorance, but what do Chaos Marines have to do with the comparison between Dark Angels/Blood Angels etc. and standard Space Marines?


A far better comparison would have been:

Ultramarine Tactical Squad
-Melta Gun, Missile Launcher, Power Fist, Drop Pod 235

Blood Angel Tactical Squad + 1 Death Company Marine
-Melta Gun, Missile Launcher, Power Fist, Drop Pod 285
(with inferior rules for both the Pod and the Squad)

Odin
27-10-2008, 13:07
Well firstly, why would they not have double wing? I mean that's like buying an army and not exercise its skills, one wing is fine, but others to me, are a bit foolish to play that kind of army, like Blood Angels without assault marines or Death Company.

Er, because DW and RW only make up one-fifth of the Dark Angels chapter. Because my army is based on the 4th company, consisting of Tactical, Assault and Devastator Squads. And because I've been playing DA since long before you could take an army consisting of DW, RW and not much else.

Sorry, I know it's off-topic, but it really annoys me when people assume that every Dark Angels army should use one of two special characters.

Back on topic, I should be playing against my mate's Crimson Fists soon. I was going to use the new SM Codex, as I generally do now. But maybe I'll play a couple of games with the DA Codex and report back. To be honest though, you don't need to do much playtesting to know that having cheaper and better units will be an advantage for the SM player.

Occulto
27-10-2008, 14:08
Sorry, I know it's off-topic, but it really annoys me when people assume that every Dark Angels army should use one of two special characters.

I don't think that's what he was getting at. There's double-wing (with one of the SCs) and there's just using RW & DW units in a power armoured force. Even if it's just a squad of DW terminators coupled with a 6 bike RW squad split into combat squads.

shakespear
27-10-2008, 14:12
I converted my force over to codex space marines and a 1850 list turned into a 1350 list. That says ALOT.

I only fielded 1 five man squad of terminators and I think the idea of bikes in 40k is silly.

marv335
27-10-2008, 14:30
I've played and watched a few DA vs SM games.
DA seem to be holding their own so far.
They were all non-specialist armies, standard mixed forces. some had DW, some had RW one had a little of both, but all of them were full codex lists.
Given players of equal ability, I've seen no tabletop evidence of the DA being underpowered in the face of an SM army.

Shatter Cake
27-10-2008, 15:16
We do "diceless" tests where we take averages on all dice rolls and then round fractions towards whose turn it is. We have found that, while it isn't a HUGE difference, there is a minor weakness for DA when they use the same models as Space Marines. Raven Wing and Death Wing are still doing good though. If you don't run those you might as well run Codex: Space Marines in our observation.

Victomorga
28-10-2008, 00:51
The power gap only really appears when you play DA vs SM. I haven't played such a game yet, and probably will do so very rarely. We don't have so many marine players around I have to play against them, I can pick my opponent as it is.

The powerlevel debate however is tired, and old. Lets leave it rest.



no kidding the disparity would only be evident in a DA vs. C:SM battle, that's the whole point of this thread.

I agree the power level debate is tired. that is why I specifically asked for first hand accounts; I 'm not interested in another discussion of theory or formulae or whatever. I want to hear about what people have experienced and / or seen first hand.


Going on like for like pointswise

10 Marine Tactical Squad with Vet Sgt, Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon, Plasma Gun and Missile Launcher - 220 points.

10 Chaos Marines with Asp Champ, Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon Plasma Gun, Missile Launcher - 220 points.

Now discount the cost of Chaos Terminators v Deathwing and you'll see that the two codexes have a very similar structure due to being written hand in hand once you start to fill out all your army choices. How this plays out depends on how you tip your units.

this is a bit of a non-sequitur.


I've played and watched a few DA vs SM games.
DA seem to be holding their own so far.
They were all non-specialist armies, standard mixed forces. some had DW, some had RW one had a little of both, but all of them were full codex lists.
Given players of equal ability, I've seen no tabletop evidence of the DA being underpowered in the face of an SM army.

this is what I have been wondering about: does the disparity which looks to many to be massive on paper really manifest as such in reality?

I expected more responses to this thread answering my original questions. I don't know if the lack thereof indicates that not a lot of people have tested the new C:SM against DA yet, or what.

marv335
28-10-2008, 01:34
I watched another game tonight, Ultramarines vs Dark Angels.
convincing win to the Dark angels.
Both were experienced players with their respective armies, no-one had any particular bad luck and there was a reasonable amount of terrain on the board.

DA weren't using doublewing although there were terminators and bikes on the board.

I'm getting the feeling that the whole "DA are nerfed" theory is a bit of a paper tiger.
The more evidence I see on the battlefield the less I believe it.

Warforger
28-10-2008, 01:47
Meh I once used my BA to beat a SoB player pretty hard (Massacre) that he was convinced that Blood Angels were better then C:SM. This was mainly because of the tactics I was using, he had a handful of short ranged weapons, which I countered by staying out of there range then assault (since a melta guns range is 12, I can stay 13+ inches away then swoop in and assault). Also I proved that when you condense yourself into a small group, then my dread in a DP is going to come down and fire plasma cannon and heavy flamer in your face (even against the SoB, the Heavy Flamer took out a few, but the plasma cannon ended up scattering and killing two tactical marines and blowing up there rhino, it was sooooo funny).

This army would be different in C:SM, by the time my dread drops my guys wouldn't be there to support him (this happened in a game yesterday). Although coming in on turn 1 sounds awesome and to some OP'd, its not always a useful tool, in fact some games I would rather have my DP's come in later in the game the any (at all) coming in on 1st.

AngryAngel
28-10-2008, 03:23
I actually don't like the come in at first turn rule with the new DP assault. The times I've seen it get used, unless alot of pods have been taken your left to land your forces too conservative, or go over aggresive and perhaps leave your dopping forces strung out and destroyed.

Which would mean you'd need to have either, scout bikes or infiltrated scouts to try and support them when they'd land.

I'd rather be able to let my pods come in turn 2 and after, let the battlefield develop a bit more before they land.

Kirasu
28-10-2008, 04:16
Id be more interested in hearing how the proposed power lists do vs DA, not just standard marines.. But an actual Vulkan list, sternguard heavy list or a shrike list

Warforger
28-10-2008, 04:22
Well one of the things I find it strange is that normal SM only have access to Death Watch (check the rules on the Australian website), the chapter codices don't have them. You can also have tactical marines upgraded to Death Watch Veterans with one of there special rounds, effectively making a good enough army of Sternguard. Against Tau you can have an army of Kraken Rounds o.e

Kirasu
28-10-2008, 04:24
Honestly the allure of sternguard in power lists are the 10 combi weapons.. The rounds are nice too

marv335
28-10-2008, 13:19
I used sternguard with a couple of heavy flamers and combi flamers against an ork horde last week.
utter carnage.
Love those sternguard.

march10k
28-10-2008, 13:34
I find it amusing that people didn't shelve their greenmarines until the C:SM came out. I played 5th company from 1999 (sometimes with a single ten man terminator squad for shock effect) until midway through 4th, when the new DA dex came out. I don't think C:SM nerfed greenmarines, it was our own codex that did it. And I'm not talking about the death of the 6-man las/plas squad. I used to run three ten man stubborn PC/(melta or plas)/(pp/bp and PS) squads. Unbreakable. You could kill twenty-four marines and still eat three plasma templates the next turn. Losing stubborn sergeants is what drove me to play black/white.

On topic, I haven't played against the new C:SM, but I don't expect problems. Even with greenmarines in the list, I think the codexes are well balanced against one another...as long as you use the whole codex. One terminator squad or a couple venerable dreadnaughts, or an attack squadron in a balanced list, and I think you get enough of the benefits to achieve parity. I do regularly make a mockery of my BA buddy's list with my mechanized deathwing...in spite of him having .7 meltabombs per marine.