PDA

View Full Version : Chaospartans!!!



Da Black Gobbo
28-10-2008, 11:12
Today i realise while reading the Chaos army book, that khorne marked warriors with spears are freaking awesome!

3 attacks each and if charged you strike with 2 ranks...thats 31 attacks str4 ws5 attacks, if backed with a chaos altar the...MADNESS can be trully awesome...imho is one of the best infantries on the game with the only drawback of having to charge while frenzied, but even losing their frenzy they keep 21 attacks, not bad at all.

Well...what do you think???

robtheguru
28-10-2008, 11:21
Sounds awesome, but where is the spear upgrade? Im looking at the book but cant see it.

Latro
28-10-2008, 11:23
looking at the book but cant see it.

That's probably because it isn't there ...


:cool:

Da Black Gobbo
28-10-2008, 13:14
Damm its true, i saw a conversion in the book, a warrior with a spear, damm Games workshop.

Von Wibble
28-10-2008, 15:32
I could be wrong but I don't know of any troops with base 2 attacks and spears. Except saurus (who had predatory fighters so don't really count) and previous savage orcs (but not now iirc). It is just too good otherwise.

Braad
28-10-2008, 15:40
Nope, savage orcs have just 1 attack.

Its not really elite-ish to fight with a spear anyway. Spears are for the cheap farmerboyz...

ZeroTwentythree
28-10-2008, 15:53
Skaven can get spears and Death Frenzy and/or Skavenbrew. That's not "base" attacks, but that's 3 spear attacks per figure. I've always thought it would be funny (if somewhat cheesy) to take a unit of DoW pikemen and Death Frenzy them. 4 ranks of guys with 3 attacks each... ;)

MrBigMr
28-10-2008, 17:34
I actually once calculated with the old HoC book that you could get 3x100 Marauders with shields and full command, on top of a champion with some gear in 2000pts.

Nightsword
28-10-2008, 17:55
I actually once calculated with the old HoC book that you could get 3x100 Marauders with shields and full command, on top of a champion with some gear in 2000pts.

Leo the Leper, lord of Nurgle: "This is SPARTA!"
Karl: "Sir, no it isn't"
Leo: "Oh. Um..."

*slits Karl's throat*

Lord Dan
28-10-2008, 18:13
Nope, savage orcs have just 1 attack.

Its not really elite-ish to fight with a spear anyway. Spears are for the cheap farmerboyz...

Spartans? ;)

Grimmeth
28-10-2008, 20:25
Of course, spears tended to be used more for throwing than fighting in ranks in the more elite regiments.
Didn't troops used to be able to do that way back in the midsts of Warhammer Time?

Chicago Slim
29-10-2008, 01:15
Nope, savage orcs have just 1 attack.

Well, they have one attack on their profile, but they start the game Frenzied, so they're fairly certain to have at least one round at two-attacks-per-model... I've run Savage Big Uns with Spears, a few times, to pull down 20 attacks at S4. It wasn't really worth it for the points...


Its not really elite-ish to fight with a spear anyway. Spears are for the cheap farmerboyz...

Not universally true, in warhammer nor in history: Consider the Greek hoplites and Roman Trirari.

In Warhammer terms, there's the Wood Elves' Eternal Guard (at 12 ppm and with a 5+ save, hardly cheap farmboys), who were also notably missing from the discussion of "spearmen with two attacks"; like Saurus Warriors, as it happens, only the front rank gets the second attack.

FurryMiguell
29-10-2008, 02:13
Chaos Warriors dont need spears to be awesome:p.

And to add to it, halberds are the weapons for farmer boys. halberds. not spears. (read the empire rule book, clearly states common troops get to use halberd). and That is also what Bettonian men at arms carry^^ (in a way...)

Ruined my post nr. 900:/. now for 911!

Cheers:D

Stezerok
29-10-2008, 02:53
well despite the lack of spears, how would a Spartan "Chaos" army be? I'm thinking like 300 style, where the army is comprised of Warriors, and so is heavily outnumbered, but still really beastly. Is this viable at all? or will it only lead to a quick demise?

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

FurryMiguell
29-10-2008, 03:28
I think it would lead to an amusing game:p

I play an all out wolfrider army. I tend to lose, but its so much fun playing, I couldnt care less!

Lord Dan
29-10-2008, 03:54
Dreadlord
Armour of Darkness, Pendant of Khaleth

25 DE Warriors
25 DE Warriors
25 DE Warriors
25 DE Warriors

25 DE Warriors
25 DE Warriors
25 DE Warriors
25 DE Warriors

25 DE Warriors
25 DE Warriors
25 DE Warriors
25 DE Warriors

2,000 points

MonkeyLord
29-10-2008, 04:35
Lord Dan: Make some room for a Master BSB w/ Hydra Banner and a Cauldron of Blood! A unit of 25 DE Spearmen making 30 Attacks straight up, or 20 attacks w/ Killing Blow! Wee! (Maybe even with AP if you give the unit the banner of murder! Weee)

mattschuur
29-10-2008, 05:22
Grimmeth, actually in real life the Spartans used a Sarissa which was a 16 foot long spear and was practically impossible to throw. The Ancient Greeks despised missile weapons as being something real men don't do. The real reason they kicked butt at that battle was because they had 12foot long spears and heavily armored guys defending a 100 yard wide valley. I thought the movies was decent, not great. Lot of leniency with the history. But moving on...

The DE list is the most likely, but a High Elf army would be more effective although you'd need a 2500 pt game to accomplish it. And if you want a 300 like battle, make it 300 swordmasters versus about 5k worth of Goblins. That game would be hilarious.

Of course you could always arm the Warriors with Halberds and mark of Khorne and they'd equal the spear option.

Matt Schuur

SilentTempest
29-10-2008, 09:06
I thought the movies was decent, not great. Lot of leniency with the history. But moving on...

Just for those that don't realise it, 300 was actually based on a graphic novel by Frank Miller, and my understanding is that it is reasonably faithful to the novel. The novel itself, of course, has taken quite the dramatic liscence with the history of the Battle of Thermopylae, but then it made no claim that it was accurate in the first place.

I've actually got a mate that had started doing up a 300-style Spartan army using the Hordes of Chaos book as counts-as. I think he was actually using Marauders so that he could fit the 300 into a reasonably sized army. Of course, at the rate he was going converting them, we'll be up to 11th ed before he's done.

The Red Scourge
29-10-2008, 09:41
Whats the magic of building an army of "300".

You can't spend points on terrain which really is what won Leonidas his immortality.

MrBigMr
29-10-2008, 10:58
The real reason they kicked butt at that battle was because they had 12foot long spears and heavily armored guys defending a 100 yard wide valley. I thought the movies was decent, not great. Lot of leniency with the history. But moving on...
As SilentTempest already said, it's intended to be a macho BS movie and not a historical epic. And as a macho BS movie it is quite well. If you're expecting some Spartan Patton where post-WW2 American tanks play the role of both Allied and German tanks, or the Luftwaffe consists of nothing but two light bombers, you're looking in the wrong direction.

As for historical stuff vs. Hollywood, wasn't Achilles suppose to be so well armoured that only his heels were exposed? But naturally you can't have a movie with Brad Pitt without showing everyone that it really is Brad Pitt (just look at Judge Dredd and Stallone). And didn't the siege of Troy last like years, not a few days as in the movie.

Chicago Slim
29-10-2008, 12:38
A few minor historical points...

Leonidas, at Thermopylae, had about 6,000-7,000 men under his command, including 300 members of his personal bodyguard (the Hippeis) and several hundred other Spartan soldiers and slaves. His force lost about 1/3 of its number in the course of the battle. When word came that the flank had completely collapsed, 2,000 survivors chose to fall back, while the Spartans (together with 700 Thespians and 400 Thebans) stood a delaying action, to buy time for the survivors to rally with other, larger armies.

The real reason that Sparta gets the credit for Thermopylae is because their King was there.

SilentTempest
29-10-2008, 13:04
As for historical stuff vs. Hollywood, wasn't Achilles suppose to be so well armoured that only his heels were exposed?

Been a LONG time since I read anything about it, but I believe it was something along the lines of "Achilles as a baby was dipped into some magical river which made him invincible, but in his mother's hurry to dip him (I think someone was coming to get them, or something like that), she failed to dip the ankle that she was holding. Hence the vulnerable ankle."

I've paraphrased it like nothing else, but what do you want when I haven't read it in at least a good 10 years, probably 15. (And for the smartypants among you, that's a rhetorical question ;))

FurryMiguell
29-10-2008, 13:43
Well, actually its called "achilles heel". That was the part she didnt soak properly

Heckus
29-10-2008, 14:47
Nah, if you really want to feel like the underdogs holding out against overwhelming odds: all goblin spearmen...led by Goblinitus.

This... is... Gobla!!!

Even if you out number the opponent 3 to 1 or more, YOU are still the underdog.

Hellequin
02-11-2008, 01:16
Grimmeth, actually in real life the Spartans used a Sarissa which was a 12 foot long spear and was practically impossible to throw. The Ancient Greeks despised missile weapons as being something real men don't do. The real reason they kicked butt at that battle was because they had 12foot long spears and heavily armored guys defending a 100 yard wide valley.
Matt Schuur
I think you are confusing the Spartans with Alexander's Macedonians, and even so it's not the right version. All ancient Greek armies including the Spartans had more than their share of side units, like doryphorous (actual translation: "spear carriers") that were lightly armed and had slings and javelins used to harass the enemy before the enemy got up-close and personal.
The reason the Spartans were so much feared in combat is exaclty the one Frank Miller quotes: They were the only professional army of the time and instead of the longer swords used by other armies of the time, they used shorter ones that could be put to better use when the fighting was, literally, shield to shield.

I like the idea of a 300-themed army, although I would think that Chaos Marauders are better to use even if not as lethal as the Spartan in the combat department.

MrBigMr
02-11-2008, 01:33
I agree on the small sword thing. Didn't the Roman's adopt it from the Spartans, making the gladius to be used in conjunction with a shield formation.

By the way, here's an image of the Adeptus Custodes from the Rogue Trader rulebook (1st ed. 40K), the Emperor's personal bodyguard:

mattschuur
02-11-2008, 01:06
The Spartans used Pikes, not swords, and theirs were 12-16 ft. The only tactical advantage they had was their training. An Athenian Hoplite might train once a month at most while the Spartans trained every day. That alone made them better at handling their weapons, staying in formation and working together. Many spartan victories were really won before the battle was fought such was their reputation.

I know the non-hoplites existed but they did not have a major impact on the battle. Every battle in Ancient Greek history revolved around the Phalanx. the missile troops, who were generally poor citizens or slaves, were regulated to guarding the flanks and usually saw very little action, except in the battle of Leuctra and even then the phalanx decided that battle.

The Macedonians used the same basic tactic as other Greeks, the massed hoplite formation but they added the heavy Cavalry charge and thats why they dominated their fellow Greeks who used only small amounts of Cavalry and they were generally light. The only real difference was the length of the spear, Greeks used 12ft and Macedonians used 18ft.

Greek infantry had swords, but as in the movie, they rarely used them as they rarely broke formation, unlike the movie. The Gladius is pure Roman and they beat the Greeks because their sword armed infantry was quicker and they could get in the flanks of the phalanx and chop it to pieces. The Greeks were unstoppable to the front but vulnerable in the flanks.

On topic. i think a dwarf slayer army fighting against Orcs and Goblins with Black orcs being the immortals would be a good fight, especially if fought down the narrow side of the table.

matt schuur

Neknoh
02-11-2008, 01:33
Basically, Greece used pikes, yes, Macedonians however used a longer version where, if I recall correctly, one man would have something like 8 or 16 spearheads in front of him in the front rank.

However, 300 is based, nay, copied, from a Graphic Novell of the same name. Which in turn is based on an old Hollywood Movie called 300 Spartans, which, in turn, is based on the Legend of the 300 spartans, which, in turn, is based on the final stand on the final day on the hill (it has been found, covered in arrowheads IIRC, cannot quote location though) of the battle. So this is made to be macho epic BS movie... and it is, it does so fairly well.

And come on, who doesn't want an army of rock-hard-slo-mo-fighting-****-kicking-guys-with-perfect-pecs-that-builds-walls-of-dead-people on the table?

mattschuur
02-11-2008, 01:35
Wow, i never expected 8 years of college to come in so handy.

Also, how about creating your own unit? Hows this.

Spartu Hoplites
WS BS S T W I A LD
5 3 4 4 1 4 2 10
Equipment- Plate Armor, hand weapon, Pike, shield.
Options- Banner- 12
Champion-12
Musician- 6
Special Rules- Stubborn, Fear.

How many points would they be?

Matt schuur

MrBigMr
02-11-2008, 01:43
And come on, who doesn't want an army of rock-hard-slo-mo-fighting-****-kicking-guys-with-perfect-pecs-that-builds-walls-of-dead-people on the table?
While I do enjoy the homoerotic macho BS action movies as much as the next guy, I also don't really care that much for the concept. I prefer the more realistic approach, maybe that's why I started with IG. And while they're a rather well trained and geared force (themed after the USCM), they're still just people. I have a fragile, yet fast Slaaneshi daemon legion, rather artistic "Chaos" Dwarfs and my 40K Chaos lord is more of a weaseling creep with double standards than a stand up guy.

Neknoh
02-11-2008, 01:51
I'd say we're upwards 24 points a piece perhaps? They are basically chosen, not AS good at fighting but close, geared up more with juicier bonuses.


Although, there are differences between Spartu Hoplites and SPARTANS!

SPARTANS!

WS5 BS5 S5 T4 W2 I5 A3 Ld10

Equippment: Javelins, Spartan Shield, Handweapon


Spartan Shield
Counts as a Shield, but confers +2 rather than the normal +1 to the armoursave, the Handweapon and Shield bonus will still apply for a total of +3 to the armoursave of the Spartans. In addition, at the start of combat, all charging enemy models in base to base contact with a spartan must pass an innitiative test, if failed, they may not attack that round as they are hurled into the air or smashed into the ground as the SPARTANS! introduce the faces of their enemies to their shield.

Special Rules:

Unbreakable, Terror Causing, True Men Wear Leather Thongs, THIS IS SPARTA!, Break up!

True men wear leather thongs!
The spartans are too manly to wear plate, however, their manlyness combined with being made of pure epic win, macho and chuck norris still grants them a 4+ Armoursave and a 4+ Wardsave.

THIS IS SPARTAAA!
Once per game, the unit may choose to instantly remove all enemy models in base to base contact with the unit during any players magic phase by throwing them down a main-water-well of a nearby city. This automatically removes the Spartans from the combat as the enemy unit is no longer in base to base contact.

Break up!
At any time, the spartans may break into Skirmish formation, granting each of them +1 attack for the remainder of the game, however, once they have done this, they cannot reform into normal Rank and File formation again but will remain in Skirmish formation. For added effect, the unit should be moved in slow-motion with apporpriate sound-effects whilst being in a broken formation.




There we go :p

Da Black Gobbo
02-11-2008, 02:17
I'd say we're upwards 24 points a piece perhaps? They are basically chosen, not AS good at fighting but close, geared up more with juicier bonuses.


Although, there are differences between Spartu Hoplites and SPARTANS!

SPARTANS!

WS5 BS5 S5 T4 W2 I5 A3 Ld10

Equippment: Javelins, Spartan Shield, Handweapon


Spartan Shield
Counts as a Shield, but confers +2 rather than the normal +1 to the armoursave, the Handweapon and Shield bonus will still apply for a total of +3 to the armoursave of the Spartans. In addition, at the start of combat, all charging enemy models in base to base contact with a spartan must pass an innitiative test, if failed, they may not attack that round as they are hurled into the air or smashed into the ground as the SPARTANS! introduce the faces of their enemies to their shield.

Special Rules:

Unbreakable, Terror Causing, True Men Wear Leather Thongs, THIS IS SPARTA!, Break up!

True men wear leather thongs!
The spartans are too manly to wear plate, however, their manlyness combined with being made of pure epic win, macho and chuck norris still grants them a 4+ Armoursave and a 4+ Wardsave.

THIS IS SPARTAAA!
Once per game, the unit may choose to instantly remove all enemy models in base to base contact with the unit during any players magic phase by throwing them down a main-water-well of a nearby city. This automatically removes the Spartans from the combat as the enemy unit is no longer in base to base contact.

Break up!
At any time, the spartans may break into Skirmish formation, granting each of them +1 attack for the remainder of the game, however, once they have done this, they cannot reform into normal Rank and File formation again but will remain in Skirmish formation. For added effect, the unit should be moved in slow-motion with apporpriate sound-effects whilst being in a broken formation.




There we go :p

Hahahahaa, now you must work on Leonidas, he must be able to beat Tyrion like a man beats an ant.

Neknoh
02-11-2008, 10:42
duly noted and done ;) http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3054792#post3054792

Havock
02-11-2008, 14:52
Grimmeth, actually in real life the Spartans used a Sarissa which was a 16 foot long spear and was practically impossible to throw. The Ancient Greeks despised missile weapons as being something real men don't do. The real reason they kicked butt at that battle was because they had 12foot long spears and heavily armored guys defending a 100 yard wide valley. I thought the movies was decent, not great. Lot of leniency with the history. But moving on...

Actually, the Sarissa was introduced by the Macedonians when they got their say in Greece. 'By' Alexander's daddy really, which was more than a century after the battle of Thermopylae.

Leonidas would have the stats of his opponent +1 and your opponent always count as having only a single handweapon...
On a more serious note, the get "Crom the Conqueror" rules, adapt it a bit, quite fitting IMO.

-remove the option to fight with two handweapons, but leave the shield bonus on all the time (as in, reduce opponent's weapons to mundane handweapons),
-give him a spear that simply gives +1S all the tme, sword of might in a different package.
-Reduce chaos armor and shield to Light armor & shield, but grant a wardsave, 5+ would be fine.
-Add stubborn.

mattschuur
02-11-2008, 15:36
Havok, yeah i threw Sarissa in there at the wrong spot, that is Macedonian. Good catch.

Okay, my Spartu guys were supposed to be "Realistic" but i'm gonna go with Neknoh's SPARTANS! Just Awesome. Except they'd be like 55 points each (just pulled it out of the air).

oh and Leonidas should be a Bloodthirster stats with Killing blow on 3+, Armor of oily ripped manliness which grants a 1+ armor save and a 2+ Ward against everything except mundane Missile weapons, unbreakable, Frenzy, javelins (throws equal to # of attacks) that always hits at S 10, Terror, and the special rule "Supa Slow Mo" where he can reroll to hits and to wounds in all rounds of Combat and always strike first.

how's that?

matt schuur

Havock
02-11-2008, 16:19
Utterly broken? :p