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Marlow
28-10-2008, 12:14
Experimental LRB 6.0

The 2008 BBRC Rules Review for Blood Bowl.
2008 Rules Review:
low res (5meg): http://www.blood-bowl.net/LRB_PBBL/LRB_5_plus_Experimental2008_lowres.pdf
high res (16meg): http://www.blood-bowl.net/LRB_PBBL/LRB_5_plus_Experimental2008.pdf

New Teams (BBRC Endorsed and NAF ranked ... not officially part of the published Rules Review):
LRB 5.0 document: http://www.blood-bowl.net/LRB_PBBL/NewTeams2008_LRB5.pdf
LRB 6.0 document: http://www.blood-bowl.net/LRB_PBBL/NewTeams_LRB6.pdf


While some will disagree I really like these rules updates. My Goblins can get skills and Safe Throw is wonderful for my Elf teams.

the anti santa
30-10-2008, 19:55
I feel this was a pretty pointless alteration.

They have really just tweaked a few things and not addressed many of the larger flaws in the game.

Orcs were left untouched, when they are too strong as were humans and they are too weak. Most importantly the Amazons were not changed when they are such a dull and uninspired team.

Khemri also didn't need a nerf as they were never that powerful in the original LRB5, I'm astounded that so many people found them tough to beat. Mind you this may well be due to the fouling rules changing to encourage brainless fouling over a precision strike at key targets.

Boosting vamps, flings and gobbos a bit is good and chaos and necros getting some help was nice as well. But if you look at the new document the changes are few and far between.

richy376
31-10-2008, 18:45
Thanks for posting this here Marlow.

It does seem like more of a tweak than a big change, but I'm not unhappy with that. Some of the changes to the skills are interesting - my regular opponant uses a human team with two catchers both with diving catch, and they were annoying enough without the new +1 to catch an accurate pass. Guess I'll have to put more effort into making sure they aren't on their feet to catch the ball.

Madfool2
13-11-2008, 22:03
I have to say I'm really liking the Slaan team.

StefDa
13-11-2008, 23:01
I'd wish they'd lower the re-rolls of Nurgle's Rotters to 60,000 - God knows they need it.

Darkson
13-11-2008, 23:31
I'd wish they'd lower the re-rolls of Nurgle's Rotters to 60,000 - God knows they need it.

Compared to who? The Rotters have already been found to be better than "vanilla" Chaos.

Madfool2
13-11-2008, 23:41
On the rules themselves, I do have to say it's minor tweaking but that isn't a bad thing at all.

And I am now contemplating models for a Slaan team!

Autobot HQ
14-11-2008, 08:23
I feel this was a pretty pointless alteration.

They have really just tweaked a few things and not addressed many of the larger flaws in the game.

<<< MORE HERE >>>

Boosting vamps, flings and gobbos a bit is good and chaos and necros getting some help was nice as well. But if you look at the new document the changes are few and far between.

I'd hardly call it pointless. As you pointed out there are some pretty big skill changes - Not needed to move at least a square to benefit from Horns in massive for example, and lets beastmen break away from being trapped or marked ALOT easier. The buff to High Elves with Safe Throw is also huge, as anything that doesn't cause a turnover is mentally good. I mean now, if nothing else is open, they can risk a long bomb down the field to that catcher knowning that even if they don't make the 4+ roll, only a 1 will end the turn. Turns up High Elves no end. Shadowing and Tenticles both change to make it easier for the escapee, effectly slowing down the OBSCENE Beast of Nurgle (an unfortunate side effect being the further nerfing of Dark Elf Assassins, along with the Stab nerf). Flesh Golems cheaper, Wood Elf catchers less reliable thankfully, Undead nerf and buff, Khemri brought down AGAIN, the list is pretty huge when you take into account three new teams on top of all that. And the best thing ever, Dwarf Rerolls have FINALLY gone up to 50k (there IS a God people!).

Pointless? That's the last thing I'd call it.

=I=

Darkson
14-11-2008, 22:07
Shadowing and Tenticles both change to make it easier for the escapee, effectly slowing down the OBSCENE Beast of Nurgle (an unfortunate side effect being the further nerfing of Dark Elf Assassins, along with the Stab nerf).

Not quite true - the chance of escaping has stayed the same percentage-wise, it's been reworded to remove FAQs on the uses of rerolls and Pro (which still wasn't 100%).

So yeah, if you regularly saw tentacle/shdowing players with Pro, it has weakned the skills for them, but for the majority of players with the skills, no it's not might any difference.

StefDa
15-11-2008, 16:15
Compared to who? The Rotters have already been found to be better than "vanilla" Chaos.

Not compared to anyone. I simply time and again find 70.000 to be too much.

Autobot HQ
16-11-2008, 01:42
Not quite true - the chance of escaping has stayed the same percentage-wise, it's been reworded to remove FAQs on the uses of rerolls and Pro (which still wasn't 100%).

So yeah, if you regularly saw tentacle/shdowing players with Pro, it has weakned the skills for them, but for the majority of players with the skills, no it's not might any difference.

Most definitly for Tenticles, it's just after block as most useful skill a Beast of Nurgle can have in our league. Shadowing not so much, I think that's just our Darkie player feeling a bit left out in the rain with his Assassins. Bless him.

tassiewargamer
17-11-2008, 09:21
The slann look very, very interesting.

Looks like a new team next year.

Marlow
17-11-2008, 09:38
To me Slann are a Wood Elf Varient team. Somewhat weaker start due to different starting skills, however they have some interesting options.

Two Catchers with Kick off Return combined with Diving Catch allows them to cover nine squares from there end zone having a chance to catch the ball on kick off. Strength & Agility access on the Blizers allows for good skill combinations.

The Souljourner
24-11-2008, 18:44
Can someone please tell me if these are official (proposed) rules or just something someone made up? It's unclear to me, since they're link from blood-bowl.net and not somewhere official.

Marlow
25-11-2008, 10:46
These are the offical Play Test rules for Blood Bowl.

In October 2009 the BB Rules Committee will vote on each change to see if it is added to the Official Blood Bowl Rules or rejected. Once updated in November 2009 this will be the document you will download from the GW Site.

So you have one year to play test these rules and report back on if you found they worked or did not work. W'Elf Catcher have Sprint to bring down the teams Win Percentage as they are winning too many games in Leauges.

Darkson
25-11-2008, 23:24
These are the offical Play Test rules for Blood Bowl.

In October 2009 the BB Rules Committee will vote on each change to see if it is added to the Official Blood Bowl Rules or rejected. Once updated in November 2009 this will be the document you will download from the GW Site.

And LRB6 will be the last LRB for a good few years. JJ has decided that after next years review the rules will be locked down, for at least 5 years.

The reason it's hosted on BB.net is because now the SG website is gone, there's nowhere on the GW to put it, as they don't want the experimental rules up, just the official ones. It's hosted on BB.net with JJ's blessing (and it's also hosted [or will be] on the NAF site, last I heard).

Khornate Steve
26-11-2008, 01:22
Well I played my 1st game over the weekend using my chaos pact team and got a 3-0 win over a Skaven team, I had a fair bit of luck which helped but on the whole there a solid team, slann team look good but I feel underworld are gonna be the team to watch out for, I have visions of an army of 2 headed, big handed goblins dodging into tackle zones on 2+ and picking up the ball on 3+

Cirrus the Blue
16-12-2008, 10:19
I feel this was a pretty pointless alteration.

I actually disagree. I feel the skills list pretty great now! That is - besides them ignoring Wrestle and keeping it as a General skill. *groan* I really like what they did with Diving Catch, Safe Throw, and Shadowing especially. Also Tentacles is a little bit better, too.

Also the fact that the Wood Elf team suddenly isn't so violently eff overpowered anymore!! :D That singular extra movement point being sliced off of the Catchers and them being given Sprint instead makes more than a world of difference in my honest opinion. Truth be told, they should've tweaked a few more things I'll agree with you on that, but for now, overall I'm pretty satisfied to tell you the truth. :)

- Cirrus

Marlow
16-12-2008, 12:36
Also Tentacles is a little bit better, too. Not that I have worked out the change myself but there is apprantly no difference between the odds with old and new Tentacles and Shadowing. The changes were to make it easier on who could use rerolls.

vomitbrown
20-12-2008, 08:37
These are the offical Play Test rules for Blood Bowl.

In October 2009 the BB Rules Committee will vote on each change to see if it is added to the Official Blood Bowl Rules or rejected. Once updated in November 2009 this will be the document you will download from the GW Site.

So you have one year to play test these rules and report back on if you found they worked or did not work. W'Elf Catcher have Sprint to bring down the teams Win Percentage as they are winning too many games in Leauges.
The whole "sprint" or "-1 movement" to the catchers really annoyed me, mostly because I like the wood elves and I don't think they needed tweaking. I agree that there wasn't anything world chattering added to the games other than the new teams. I can't wait to field an Underworld team, just cause I love the Skaven and Gobbos are funny.

the anti santa
20-12-2008, 19:47
I actually disagree. I feel the skills list pretty great now! That is - besides them ignoring Wrestle and keeping it as a General skill. *groan* I really like what they did with Diving Catch, Safe Throw, and Shadowing especially. Also Tentacles is a little bit better, too.


The changes were to very minor skills and they will still be only taken by a few players, probably 4th or 5th skill once all the good choices have gone. Diving catch was one of the worst skills in the game and is still pretty rubbish, i could see AG3 catchers taking it after block, diving tackle and sidestep if they don't roll doubles. Safe throw was nerfed and has now been buffed back again, a lot of races almost never pass so won't take it.

I'd though shadowing and tentacles were the same mathematically to the old versions, shadowing is a low use skill as most players with the speed to use it's full benefit don't want to be stood where they can get hit, whilst tents is only used by a few teams with mutation access (though it is a nice skill).




Also the fact that the Wood Elf team suddenly isn't so violently eff overpowered anymore!! :D That singular extra movement point being sliced off of the Catchers and them being given Sprint instead makes more than a world of difference in my honest opinion.


Are wood elves all that powerful? In a 1 off game they always have a good chance at winning, but in leagues they can go squish pretty easily. In any case it;s the wardancers who are the real game winners, catchers are nice and all but now they are much worse than the dancers.



Truth be told, they should've tweaked a few more things I'll agree with you on that, but for now, overall I'm pretty satisfied to tell you the truth. :)
- Cirrus

This is exactly my point, LRB6 will be the last change for at least 5 years, and it's all very minor tweaks. Some gaping mistakes from the change from LRB4 to 5 have been completely ignored (the crap fouling rules in 5) and they've wasted opportunities to sort out Amazons.

I also think that very flawed logic has been used when deciding which teams to buff/nerf. Saying any team with above 55% wins in their stats were too good was silly. The stats used quite a limited amount of games and were not taken into any kind of context.

I'd want at least 10 games with every possible match up of all 24 teams at 100, 125, 150, 175, 200, 225 and 250 TV which makes 40,000+ games. And with decent players too, Orcs always have crap stats as n00bs love em.
This is a minimum of games as well since with any dice rolling game you need a lot of data to get any kind of indication of power.

For instance Dwarfs, Undead and Wood elves were all toned down when all these teams are very good at low TV, which is what the vast majority of games are played at. Wood Elves stay competitive at all TV's if they can get that high, but dwarfs and undead both struggle above 175, whilst teams like chaos get better at this range.

vomitbrown
21-12-2008, 00:09
I agree with Santa about the Wood Elves. I don't see how Wood Elves are so overpowered. True, they are quicker than everybody else and the Wardancers are pound for pound the best player in the game, but at the same time they get hurt easily and the team can only include 2 wardancers at any given time.
Dark Elves or Dwarfs are way more overpowered, I think.

StefDa
21-12-2008, 09:37
I am shocked.

Darkson
24-12-2008, 22:43
Are wood elves all that powerful? In a 1 off game they always have a good chance at winning, but in leagues they can go squish pretty easily. In any case it;s the wardancers who are the real game winners, catchers are nice and all but now they are much worse than the dancers.


I agree with Santa about the Wood Elves. I don't see how Wood Elves are so overpowered.

In ALL the playtest leagues the BBRC used for data collection, for all the leagues that gave their stats/info to the BBRC, and for all the NAF tourney data (which was given less importance than league stats), Wood Elfs were far and away the best roster, hands down. If I recall the figures correctly (and I openly admit I might not, and can't check as TBB is down), Wood Elves were approx. 5% ABOVE the W/l% that the BBRC had marked for tier 1 teams.


Dark Elves or Dwarfs are way more overpowered, I think.

Not from all the stats collected over many years. Dwarfs are close, but Dark Elves? No where near.

the anti santa
27-12-2008, 14:26
In ALL the playtest leagues the BBRC used for data collection, for all the leagues that gave their stats/info to the BBRC, and for all the NAF tourney data (which was given less importance than league stats), Wood Elfs were far and away the best roster, hands down. If I recall the figures correctly (and I openly admit I might not, and can't check as TBB is down), Wood Elves were approx. 5% ABOVE the W/l% that the BBRC had marked for tier 1 teams.


From Plasmoid's data Wood Elves have almost a 61% win rate in leagues and 56% win rate in NAF tournaments.

As i understand it tier 1 teams should have a 45-55% win rate, so for NAF games they are just above that target. For leagues they are well above the 55%, but this is only from 1100 games.

Not a huge number and we don't know of the TV levels played, the standard of coaching by the Wood elves or their opponents.

Personally i place more faith in the opinion of experienced coaches than i do in dry statistics with no supporting data.

I'm far from conviced that the changes were either needed or will have the desired effect.

In particular these same stats put the old Khemri very near the top of the win % and Orcs just above the joke teams. Orcs are a far stronger team than Khemri at winning and at higher TV's probably as good at bashing. I seriously question the ability of coaches who can't win with Orcs vs Khemri with equal teams and luck.

Giganthrax
27-12-2008, 14:42
In ALL the playtest leagues the BBRC used for data collection, for all the leagues that gave their stats/info to the BBRC, and for all the NAF tourney data (which was given less importance than league stats), Wood Elfs were far and away the best roster, hands down. If I recall the figures correctly (and I openly admit I might not, and can't check as TBB is down), Wood Elves were approx. 5% ABOVE the W/l% that the BBRC had marked for tier 1 teams.
I didn't Wood Elves were statistically the best team, but it's by no means surprising.

Personally, I hate wardancers. They start with block, dodge, leap, 4 agi and 8 mv, and can get spp faster then probably any player out there. Unless an opposing team gets very good block rolls on them or the wood elf player gets lots of 1s (highly unlikely with experienced players), there is no way to prevent one or two of them from simply running through your lines and scoring. IMHO, they really should have SOME kind of disadvantage.

EmperorNorton
27-12-2008, 20:55
I didn't Wood Elves were statistically the best team, but it's by no means surprising.

Personally, I hate wardancers. They start with block, dodge, leap, 4 agi and 8 mv, and can get spp faster then probably any player out there. Unless an opposing team gets very good block rolls on them or the wood elf player gets lots of 1s (highly unlikely with experienced players), there is no way to prevent one or two of them from simply running through your lines and scoring. IMHO, they really should have SOME kind of disadvantage.

As far as I'm concerned their low armour and high price tag are disadvantages enough.

Darkson
29-12-2008, 00:24
Personally i place more faith in the opinion of experienced coaches than i do in dry statistics with no supporting data.

As do the BBRC - they haven't pulled these changes out of thin air based on the stats alone. Experienced coaches from around the world have been saying for many years that wood elves needed a nerf for both league and tourney play.

That said, I don't think the change is a good one. Either (or both) the tree or wardancer should have been looked at, not the catcher.

Marlow
29-12-2008, 18:17
For those that want to see the various league totals they are here.
http://home.worldonline.dk/nyskes/bbowl/LRB5Stats.htm

Wood Elves have 61% and Undead have 58% in Leagues.

Giganthrax
29-12-2008, 18:58
As far as I'm concerned their low armour and high price tag are disadvantages enough.
Statistically, 7 has the highest chance to roll on a 2d6 roll. And since they can only be knocked down on a single dice result on the block dice, it makes them more then capable of avoiding most injury and stunning.

It's overpowered imho. Not that I'm complaining. I rarely play against them, anyway.