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View Full Version : Sword master vs Chosen Warrior? Whose has the upper hand?



him_15
29-10-2008, 12:35
as titled , both unit with 20 man (or should it be elves) Full command, ignore the eye of the god and magical banner, who has a better chance?

Vile Druchii
29-10-2008, 12:41
Why ignore Eye of the God? Should we ignore ASF for the Swordmasters too? Either way, my money's on the Chosen, but again it depends what they're armed with.

EvC
29-10-2008, 12:43
Do we ignore marks too?

Chosen of Nurgle fighting with hand weapon and shields I'd bet on. Swordmasters go 7 wide, but Chosen go 8 wide to counter :D 15 SM attacls = 8 hits, 5 wounds, 2 unsaved. 13 back from Chosen make 8 hits, 5 wounds, 4 unsaved. Chosen win, crowd goes wild!

Baaltharus
29-10-2008, 12:43
Depends on there frontage and what the chosen are armed with. Plus you can't ignore the eye of the Gods table as its part of their rules and points value. For instance if the Chosen hadn't got anything devastingly good on the table and had GWs then the Sword Masters would probably win if they had the same frontage. They are quite evenly matched but you probably won't find that on the table due to a whole host of other circumstances.

Vile Druchii
29-10-2008, 12:49
Do we ignore marks too?

Chosen of Nurgle fighting with hand weapon and shields I'd bet on. Swordmasters go 7 wide, but Chosen go 8 wide to counter :D 15 SM attacls = 8 hits, 5 wounds, 2 unsaved. 13 back from Chosen make 8 hits, 5 wounds, 4 unsaved. Chosen win, crowd goes wild!

Don't Chosen have Strength 5? In which case, Swordmasters wouldn't have an armour save, so 5 wounds would be caused. The crowd would go even wilder then! :D

Not having either book, I don't really know...I could be talking out of what I'm sitting on!

him_15
29-10-2008, 12:49
The reason I ignore Eye is that there are so many options to calculate, and the eye might be closed. While mark is another story.

Vile Druchii
29-10-2008, 12:56
I think Chosen get to re-roll the closed eye and stupidity rolls though, so they'll definitely have something beneficial. I think any of the marks will have an impact on combat, but most notably Khorne and Nurgle. Of course, then the points wouldn't balance out and the Chosen would be outnumbered.

In a straight up fight, I think the Chosen have the upper hand. But because they cost so much, they probably should!

marv335
29-10-2008, 12:56
too many variables to run a decent comparison.
My money is on the chosen though.
They are tougher, have better armour, and hit as hard, if not harder.
I'm not sure about points though. Chosen are probably more expensive.
I doubt ASF will make much of a difference.
SM are probably hitting on a 4+, wounding on a 3+, and the chosen are getting a 4+ save.
(assuming mark of nurgle)
Chosen will be hitting on a 4+, wounding on a 2+ and the SM get no save
Assuming equal frontage (of 5)
SM cause 2 casualties on the chosen, Chosen cause 2 casualties on the SM.
Big Fat Draw unless one side has more ranks/standards/etc and that depends on points totals.
Of course some of the results on the EotG table will change the outcome somewhat.

him_15
29-10-2008, 12:59
OH, just forgot the chosen get to re-roll any bad eye of the god roll, how much does chosen warrior cost btw?

EvC
29-10-2008, 13:00
Can't give points cost, but substantially more than a Swordmaster. You can't really factor in the Eye of the Gods, because it depends on how lucky you are. I have had a dozen rolls on it without a single tangible benefit in all of my games so far, whilst others... well, I'm sure others will tell you of the time their WS7 S7 T5 A4 Chosen beat down a Bloodthirster...


Don't Chosen have Strength 5? In which case, Swordmasters wouldn't have an armour save, so 5 wounds would be caused. The crowd would go even wilder then! :D

Not having either book, I don't really know...I could be talking out of what I'm sitting on!

It would probably be helpful if you assume that those of us who are talking about it know what we're talking about, rather than assume I got the most basic of stats wrong ;)

Vile Druchii
29-10-2008, 13:00
If you're assuming they have the mark of Nurgle, then Chosen hit on 3's.

It's a difficult one to judge, so I'd just advise using the Swordmaster's superior movement to try to get a flank charge! Otherwise, they're probably in for a pasting!

DeadPoem
29-10-2008, 13:21
OH, just forgot the chosen get to re-roll any bad eye of the god roll, how much does chosen warrior cost btw?

Chosen costs 18pts per model :evilgrin:

Emeraldw
29-10-2008, 13:30
Can't give points cost, but substantially more than a Swordmaster. You can't really factor in the Eye of the Gods, because it depends on how lucky you are. I have had a dozen rolls on it without a single tangible benefit in all of my games so far, whilst others... well, I'm sure others will tell you of the time their WS7 S7 T5 A4 Chosen beat down a Bloodthirster...



It would probably be helpful if you assume that those of us who are talking about it know what we're talking about, rather than assume I got the most basic of stats wrong ;)

Chosen are Str 4. Knights are str 5 with their magical blades so I can see where someone would get that confused.



If you're assuming they have the mark of Nurgle, then Chosen hit on 3's.

It's a difficult one to judge, so I'd just advise using the Swordmaster's superior movement to try to get a flank charge! Otherwise, they're probably in for a pasting!

If the Chosen were using a weapon type and not a shield, I would say Sword Masters. With a shield, Chosen. Also the Mark of Nurgle gives the chosen the WS advantage.

I've done a couple quick mathhammers about this and generally it comes down to what their armor is. Since SM's ASF with their attacks it makes things easier for them to kill their enemy.

Fenix_
29-10-2008, 13:53
If you're assuming they have the mark of Nurgle, then Chosen hit on 3's.



I think MoN only works when the enemy is attacking the unit; the -1WS is not always there just for being in combat with the marked unit, so asuming SM are WS6 (i don't know) chosen will still hit on 4+

but I may be wrong, I don't have the book here to confirm

him_15
29-10-2008, 14:07
So SM would get 3 more guys for the same cost, and likely to outnumber at the end, I think it's just depend on the Eye of the god result

Emeraldw
29-10-2008, 14:24
I think MoN only works when the enemy is attacking the unit; the -1WS is not always there just for being in combat with the marked unit, so asuming SM are WS6 (i don't know) chosen will still hit on 4+

but I may be wrong, I don't have the book here to confirm

Mark of Nurgle gives -1 WS according to the summary I have. If that works on the enemy unit SM's are thus WS5 and the chosen will hit on a 3+

Lord Khabal
29-10-2008, 15:51
same frontage:
10xSM=150 VS 8xchosen=152 (no mark, charmour+shield, no eotg table roll or +1Ld result)

SM - ASF, so: 3.333 wounds
chosen, remaining 7: 5.83 wounds (5 wounds if 6 remain)

so there, chosen rule... But are more expensive

DeathlessDraich
29-10-2008, 15:51
Quick calculation for both:

Against WS4, S4, T3, I4, 4+AS, and taking ASF into account

Chosen warrior is 12% better per point - slightly less against T4 and more against S5

Von Wibble
29-10-2008, 15:59
I think comparing 20 vs 20 is not a good idea. It just isn't realistic - its not a good idea to spend more than 300pts on a unit before inclusion of characters. A chosen unit of 20 with mark is more like 425pts (whilst swordmasters are 330)

I personally would have 12 chosen vs 14 swordmasters as fairer. My high elves run 14 man elite units in 2 ranks of 7, and I know my regular opponent will have 2 ranks of 6 as a rule. Points costs for units are 240 for swordmasters, 278 plus mark for chosen (290 with gw/or halberd and shield, 302 with gw and shield) In general high points cost units of foot troops are a little too easy to avoid/target compared to 2 units totalling about the same cost.

As far as EOTG goes I believe P(decent effect vs swordmasters) = 15/29 -practically 50% chance.

If the chosen are nurgle with shields.

15 swordmaster attacks. 7.5 hit, 5 wound. 2.5 killed.

8 chosen attacks. 5.3 hit, 1.8 wound, about 1.5 are unsaved. Swordmasters win by 2ish. Same happens each round, chosen are ground down.

That surprises me, - I thought the chosen would edge it. If they go up to 14 models the swordmasters still have the slight edge.

Chosen of Nurgle with halberds are no better than great weapons except cheaper. Analysis is as follows

Swordmasters, 15 attacks, 7.5 hit, 5 wound, 4.2ish killed.

Chosen, 7 attacks, 4.7 hit, 4 wound. A draw, as near as. However if the fight is extended several rounds the swordmasters win through due to thenm striking first to wipe out the chosen before they attack back.

Chosen with ehw, get same casualties, but have 10 attacks, 6.7 hits, 4,4 wounds, 3.7ish kills. Not as good for them.

Nurgle Conclusion - chosen of nurgle who don't get some kind of profile bonus, or set up incredibly wide (in which case the high elf player will probably have 1 more rank bonus ;) ) will lose to swordmasters, albeit over a long period of time. Considering they cost more this is not a good thing - you are paying for teh better armour and higher T vs missile fire and magic.

Chosen of Tzeentch are only 4 to hit but get 6+ ward. Instinctively I don't think that is as good for them.

Chosen of Slaanesh do not improve their odds in combat at all so its worse.

Chosen of Khorne - with +1 A but -1 to hit. Lets see

Shields

Swordmasters inflict 2.5 kills

Chosen get 11.5 attacks (half one models attacks because its 50% chance of him getting to go!)

5.75 hit, 3.9 wound, 3 kill. The chosen are going to win this one.

GW/Halberds

Swordmasters get 4.2ish kills

Chosen get 7 attacks, 3.5 hit, 2.3 kill. Swordmasters win.

EHW

Swordmasters get 4.2 kills

Chosen get 9 attacks, 4.5 hit, 3 wound, 2.4 fail save. Again swordmasters win.

Overall conclusion

If the eye of the gods table isn't favouring chosen they lose out point for point to swordmasters, except when khornate and equipped with hand weapon and shield (although of course the mark of khorne makes them cost more). With eye of the gods giving +1T or +1A this becomes very different.

This comparison does not allow for the presence of other troops in the army - chosen cost more so swordmasters will be better supported. Otoh chosen have a decent T and save vs shooting which swordmasters don't.

EvC
29-10-2008, 16:49
If the chosen are nurgle with shields.

15 swordmaster attacks. 7.5 hit, 5 wound. 2.5 killed.

8 chosen attacks. 5.3 hit, 1.8 wound, about 1.5 are unsaved. Swordmasters win by 2ish. Same happens each round, chosen are ground down.

That surprises me, - I thought the chosen would edge it. If they go up to 14 models the swordmasters still have the slight edge.

As I tell my students, if the conclusion from a calculation surprises you, then go back and check your workings. In your case, you have worked out the data as Chosen wounding on 5+ rather than 3+. So the Chosen should be getting about 3 wounds on their enemy after saves, making it pretty even.

Malorian
29-10-2008, 17:50
My vote is for the swordmasters just because they look cool and not like a bunch of weirdos... ;)

Seriously though, both units would ver rarely be fully ranked (so SM get outnumber due to points) and it really comes down the eye of the gods (and if there are any shrines near by...).

Peril
29-10-2008, 18:15
Nurgle Chosen will not hit Swordmasters on 3+ unless the Chosen are WS6

Von Wibble
29-10-2008, 19:32
And they are WS6 so do hit on 3+

EVC - quite right. I hope that's my only error - if you couldn't tell I was doing the numbers quite quickly in my head....It is a slight advantage to the chosen in kills but the outnumber and possible rank bonus reverse that in the short term.

Tbh the main thing learnt is to always give your chosen shields when facing high elves. If not everyone!

As an aside I actually think Phoenix guard do a better job. They can outnumber chaos warriors so causing fear is a huge advantage to them, and the ward save will really help minimise casualties. Led by a character such a unit will be very tough for chaos infantry to beat without being vastly more expensive.

WhiteKnight
29-10-2008, 23:49
Well SM should be hitting on 3's because they're WS 6 unless chosen are WS 6. Anyways, its all about what the chosen has. Lets just make it so there are no marks and we assume that the chosen has HW / shield. The SM would go first so 11 attacks. Presumingly, 6.5 hit. 3's to wound so about 4 will wound. Thats 4 4+ armor saves.

Shamfrit
30-10-2008, 00:04
Shields + Mark of Tzeentch.

Chosen Win.

Shields

Chosen Win

Great Weapons

Chosen Win

Halberds

Chosen Win

---

See the pattern? :D

Havock
30-10-2008, 01:38
Naked with Mark of Nurgle?

Chosen win?

sulla
30-10-2008, 04:26
Naked with Mark of Nurgle?

Chosen win?
I think Shamfrit's dice are probably a little ...weighted.;)

Lord Dan
30-10-2008, 05:32
Who charged? ;)

Lord Khabal
30-10-2008, 08:51
Irrelevant due to ASF

urien
30-10-2008, 09:00
Irrelevant due to ASF

see the little smily at the end of his sentence?

back on topic-- nurgle chosen ftw. if ever ill make myself taking them to the battlefield...

EvC
30-10-2008, 15:49
Just don't put them into my command. I could probably make them lose to Skavenslaves...

innerwolf
31-10-2008, 12:13
Mark of Nurgle gives -1 WS according to the summary I have. If that works on the enemy unit SM's are thus WS5 and the chosen will hit on a 3+

Don't believe summaries, believe the rule entry on the real armybook. It's -1 WS when being attacked(not when attacking)

Ok, let's review some facts before whe continue with the math hammer. Chosen are WS6, S4 and 2 attacks.


same frontage:
10xSM=150 VS 8xchosen=152 (no mark, charmour+shield, no eotg table roll or +1Ld result)

SM - ASF, so: 3.333 wounds
chosen, remaining 7: 5.83 wounds (5 wounds if 6 remain)

so there, chosen rule... But are more expensive

8 - 3.333 isn't 7, but 4,6. So it's 4,6 x2 = 9,2 attacks, 4,6 hits, 3 wounds, 2,55 unsaved wounds.

SM win.

theunwantedbeing
31-10-2008, 12:32
Swordmaster vs chosen.
Swordmasters 7 wide, chosen 6 wide (140mm wide vs 150mm wide)

SM always go first.
12 attacks, 4+ to hit, 3+ to wound, 4+ save for the chosen, 2 die.
Champion same as above, 3 attacks. 50/50 chance of dying.

Chosen fight back
4 of them(8 attacks), 4+ to hit, 3+ to wound, 6+ save for the swordmasters, 2.22 die.
Champion is he survives, 3 attacks. 5/6 chance of killing the other guy.

Assuming the swordmaster champ wins the fight, the swordmasters are going to win the combat, although if the chaos chosen champion survives the swordmasters are going to be losing.

Nurgle chosen with sheilds flatten swordmasters (but do cost rather more).
Suffering the same 2 wounds but dealing 3/4 of a wound more, and the champion being more likely to kill the enemy unit champion twice over.

Give the chosen +1 armour save and they lose less men and win.(.67 less deaths)
Higher toughness, chosen win.(.5 less die)
Higher strength, chosen win.(1.11 more swordmasters die)
4+ ward and stubborn, chosen win.(1 less dies)
You get the idea, chosen can take on and beat swordmasters, but they cost more so they should.
I ignored the champion in those above calculations so they're a slight bit higher in most cases.

Chosen of nurgle or khorne will generally beat swordmasters even more than normal chosen do.

SM really need to be 8 wide to stand a proper chance of winning against chosen without any upgrades. It's the upgrades that realy tip the fight in favour of the chosen.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
31-10-2008, 15:43
I have my money on the chosen but is that unit normally" taken 7 or more across. I always take my swordmasters 7 across so it is kinda weak to reform the unit to get more attacks against a certain unit as opposed to an army. I am afraid to say that my Swordmasters would likely lose but look beautiful while doing so ;)

Dragon Prince of Caledor
31-10-2008, 15:47
I dont know much about chaos despite the fact that they are rediculous.. How would the point compare?

theunwantedbeing
31-10-2008, 16:04
Points compare pretty evenly.
15 swordmasters is about 12 chosen..although upgrades lower that number a little.
However in all liklihood an equal points cost of chosen are never going to get to fight an equal points cost of swordmasters.
More likely the chosen unit will be half the cost it started when it gets to fight the swordmasters and the swordmasters will have lost very few models so will go into the fight with a numerical superiority and a static combat res bonus over the chosen.

So the chosen may kill 2 more swordmasters than they lost, but they'll be a rank down and so be outnumbered, so draw the combat.

innerwolf
31-10-2008, 16:10
I dont know much about chaos despite the fact that they are rediculous.. How would the point compare?

You can get 18 Swordmasters for the the same points as 15 Chosen, without taking into account command(I think chosen's is more expensive), upgrades(weapons or shield) and marks. From here they get even more expensive, for example if they have mark if Nurgle and shields you can have 3 additional Swordmasters.


Edit:


More likely the chosen unit will be half the cost it started when it gets to fight the swordmasters and the swordmasters will have lost very few models so will go into the fight with a numerical superiority and a static combat res bonus over the chosen.

So the chosen may kill 2 more swordmasters than they lost, but they'll be a rank down and so be outnumbered, so draw the combat.

Nice observation.

Leth Shyish'phak
31-10-2008, 17:23
Don't believe summaries, believe the rule entry on the real armybook. It's -1 WS when being attacked(not when attacking)

No it isn't. The book makes no mention of when they're attacking. It merely says -1Ws when in base contact.

treben1234
31-10-2008, 18:52
Well I have the same problem with sword masters vs my Vc. The plan is to lock them up with zombies or spirit hosts to the side or magic them to death.

Now back on topic. How about Sword Masters vs Hell cannon.

W0lf
31-10-2008, 21:02
Why chosen vs swordmasters?

Try chosen vs an eagle and 2 bolt throwers.

The chosen wont even get into combat in 6 turns ;)

sulla
31-10-2008, 23:33
Why chosen vs swordmasters?

Try chosen vs an eagle and 2 bolt throwers.

The chosen wont even get into combat in 6 turns ;)

:D That's what I was gonna say. But you can just as easily apply the same to swordmasters.

The more relevant matchups have always been elite infantry vs heavy cav since that's far more likely to happen on the field than 2 lumbering heavy infantry regiments crashing into each other. And the points usually go to the heavy cav.

The other thing that will be interesting to see is if players will risk their chosen without a magic banner and/or a hero to bolster them? It's all well and good that a unit of chosen can beat the top elite infantry unaided, but when they will most likely be facing heavy cav and a character, they might just need a bit of aid.

Then it becomes a question of whether a more numerous, but cheaper unit of chaos infantry with the same hero could have achieved the same results without being so vulnerable to missle/magic?

W0lf
01-11-2008, 19:49
I dont rate chosen at all myself.

Chaos warriors for 3 pts more but also pay 20 pts more for full command? Oh and they arnt core?

Ill stick to chaos warriors myself thanks, and even then its cos i like them.

Bob the Butcher
04-11-2008, 09:33
SMs are WS 6 even with the -1 the Chosen will need 4's to hit the SMs.

Ward.
04-11-2008, 09:51
SMs are WS 6 even with the -1 the Chosen will need 4's to hit the SMs.

Chosen are also WS, thanks to the mark of nurgle the SM's become Ws5.

As it is right now, 3,4,5,6,9,10,11,12 on the eye of the gods table help the chosen in some way against the sword masters.

dala_karn
04-11-2008, 11:07
You’ve all seem to have forgotten that the chosen champion will be issuing a challenge as well whenever he can. And before anyone says its character only unless there’s a warshrine here is what it states in the book.

Eye of the gods: chaos MODELS that may issue challenges must do so whenever they are able.

It then explains that only characters benefit from the table and not unit champions, unless of course there is a warshrine about.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
04-11-2008, 12:01
The way our gaming group sees it Chaos is Chaos and willl always be chaos... My swordmasters never die to anything besides missiles. But chaos will always be chaos...

W0lf
04-11-2008, 21:39
Can i find a He general who would be willing to say hed charge chosen with his swordmasters btw?

Im no HE player but id just march block them, likely shoot/magic them to below half then ignore them.

My swordmasters would kick 10 shades of S**t out of the marauders/marauder cav aspects of the list.

marv335
04-11-2008, 21:51
I certainly won't be charging any of my swordmasters into chosen. not unless I've thinned them out with magic and shooting.
into the flank, certainly, but not head on.
they're not very fast so I should be able to out manuovre them.