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View Full Version : Mark of Tzeentch and Chaos Sorceror Qs



Stouty
29-10-2008, 21:32
A few questions that I'm sure have pretty obvious answers and I'm just being extremely dense.

1) Mark of Tzeentch on a sorceror: Does he still get the 6+ ward save? The two benefits don't seem to be exclusive but I would like to check with someone else before I go off and look like an idiot

2) Sorceror: Can they take the enchanted shield? I really didn't think so but I saw someone with one in their list and I don't have access to my rulebook where I am. I thought shields and armour were counted as different types of item and therefore since they can't access a normal shield they can't get the enchanted one.

3)For "Eye of the Gods", do unit champions count as characters as champions count as characters for the purposes of challenges?

Goruax
30-10-2008, 01:07
1) Sorceror would get a 6+ ward save. He just gets an additional benefit 'cause he 'dabbles' in magic.

2) No, because they can't take mundane shields. They can take any other kind of magic armour, however.

3) No, unless there is a Warshrine on the table. See page 58;
"Whilst a Warshrine is on the table, all Chaos unit champions have the Eye of the Gods special rule."
That indicates that they do not count as characters for the EOTG unless there is a Warshrine. Quite simple, but that's where it states it.

Edonil
30-10-2008, 01:25
Warriors of Chaos, page 106-
"The term 'Sorceror' is used to describe Wizards who follow the Chaos Gods. Sorcerors are unusual in that they wear Chaos Armor and use magic shields or magic armor just like other Champions of Chaos."

Your unit champions don't get to roll on the table for challenges without a warshrine. However, killing unit champions gives you a roll.

Stouty
30-10-2008, 02:45
Excellent, thanks guys! That opens up a few options for me :D

Atrahasis
30-10-2008, 09:37
Warriors of Chaos, page 106-
"The term 'Sorceror' is used to describe Wizards who follow the Chaos Gods. Sorcerors are unusual in that they wear Chaos Armor and use magic shields or magic armor just like other Champions of Chaos."

That paragraph is ambiguous at best.


Your unit champions don't get to roll on the table for challenges without a warshrine. However, killing unit champions gives you a roll.



That indicates that they do not count as characters for the EOTG unless there is a Warshrine. Quite simple, but that's where it states it.

Champions are not characters, ever. They can issue and accept challenges but they are not considered characters. Killing unit champions NEVER gives a roll on the EotG table. Well, I suppose a Thunderlord would, being a Large Target.

Edonil
30-10-2008, 12:08
As much as it is risky at best to rely on GW establishing a precedent through White Dwarf, they did very clearly in November's issue.
"Every time a Chaos Hero or Lord kills an enemy character in a challenge he is rewarded with a roll on the Eye of the Gods table. By the end of Turn 2 Phil's Chaos Lord had gained a Ld of 10, and a Strength of 6 by slaying the Runesmith and Longbeard Champion."

As to how that paragraph is ambiguous...I don't follow you. A Chaos Sorceror is allowed to take a Magic Shield just like a Champion of Chaos.

Atrahasis
30-10-2008, 13:17
As much as it is risky at best to rely on GW establishing a precedent through White Dwarf, they did very clearly in November's issue.
"Every time a Chaos Hero or Lord kills an enemy character in a challenge he is rewarded with a roll on the Eye of the Gods table. By the end of Turn 2 Phil's Chaos Lord had gained a Ld of 10, and a Strength of 6 by slaying the Runesmith and Longbeard Champion."

White Dwarf is not rules. If we allow WD to influence us in that way then O&G players can choose the direction of fanatics if they roll a hit.


As to how that paragraph is ambiguous...I don't follow you. A Chaos Sorceror is allowed to take a Magic Shield just like a Champion of Chaos.There are 3 or more threads about it already.

Odin
30-10-2008, 13:59
White Dwarf is not rules. If we allow WD to influence us in that way then O&G players can choose the direction of fanatics if they roll a hit.

Indeed - the rule states that you roll on the EotG table when a character with EotG "kills an enemy character in combat".

The BRB specifically states that "champions are not characters".

It then goes on to say that "champions are subject to the following rules that govern characters", including "Champions can accept and issue challenges", but that doesn't change the fact that they are not a character, so you don't get to roll on the table.


There are 3 or more threads about it already.

Yeah this debate will go on until GW get around to an FAQ, which they need to do very soon (before thousands of people convert up sorcerers with shields, preferably!).

xragg
30-10-2008, 14:11
Eye counts when killing a character in a challenge. A challenge is one of the instances a champion is subject to abide by rules governing a character. While techniquelly a rank n file, the champion is bound to the rules of a character concerning a challenge and would qualify for an eye roll. I know some very strict rules lawyers will argue the opposite, but I know the typical gamer is going to count champion as a character for this situation.

Odin
30-10-2008, 14:20
Eye counts when killing a character in a challenge. A challenge is one of the instances a champion is subject to abide by rules governing a character. While techniquelly a rank n file, the champion is bound to the rules of a character concerning a challenge and would qualify for an eye roll. I know some very strict rules lawyers will argue the opposite, but I know the typical gamer is going to count champion as a character for this situation.

They would be wrong. It's not rules lawyering, it is reading the actual rules and following them.

As I said above, the rulebook states that "champions can accept and issue challenges" - it does not say that they "count as characters" or anything like that. It specifically says that they "are not characters".

I have no idea what the writer intended, but that part of the rules is clear.

Atrahasis
30-10-2008, 14:22
Mr Kelly has intimated that killing Champions does not grant a roll because "that would be too powerful".

EvC
30-10-2008, 15:02
Course, he seems to have split personality disorder, which isn't helpful.

Edonil
31-10-2008, 13:19
Very much not helpful. I can understand arguments both ways (especially about the WD thing), but it seems rather change that he would say that killing Champions doesn't give you a roll...and then does it in the WD battle he plays in! Make up your mind darn it!

Atrahasis
31-10-2008, 13:30
The battle report would have been played many months ago, before the book was finalised.

Maybe the fact that his Lord ended up with stupidly good stats is WHY the book was changed?

Regardless, where WD and the army book disagree, WD is wrong.

EvC
31-10-2008, 14:26
Indeed, champions cannot count as characters in a challenge. Imagine the evil possibilities with Shagga's Screaming Sword if they did...

Lothairsson
31-10-2008, 18:48
Regarding the ongoing argument about Chaos Sorcerers using armor / shields, which I believe has appeared in other threads as well, this just appeared on the GW UK Website under the WOC: Eye of the Gods Article:

"...Chaos Sorcerers are, thankfully, better than most and they have access to some options to keep them alive and kicking against whatever comes their way.
My favourite option is the Warrior Familiar - who inflicts an automatic S5 hit on a single model before blows are struck. Perfect for getting the edge over a powerful opponent, especially if you're likely to end up in a challenge against him. In terms of defence, consider something like an Enchanted Shield (improving your armour save to 2+) or the Chaos Runeshield (which negates magic weapons in base contact) - both of which improve your chances for survival."

EvC
31-10-2008, 18:55
Funnily enough that's not going to convince anyone who doesn't already think a Sorcerer can take a magic shield- not least because it's clearly wrong in at least one way: a Sorcerer with a hand weapon and an Enchanted Shield in fact has a save of 1+ :D

SolarHammer
31-10-2008, 19:06
It was also the kind of battle that foolish children would have. Little better than flinging figures at each other until someone loses an eye.

mistermaster
03-11-2008, 00:44
Hi guys,

Too many chaos threads to start another with a couple of questions.

How works the Mark of Tzeentch with the Eye of the Gods 12th result. Does it grant the character/unit a 3+ ward?

If a war shrine gives a benefit to a unit and the it is killed, does the benefit continues? or is it negated. In the spanish version of the book is not clear and it can be readen in two different ways.

I already know that it has been discussed but cant really find a satisfying answer. How combines a chosen champion with the gift of the gods item. Can he alter the result of the initial roll? And rolls made with one or more shrine?

I hope you all understand my english, i can read well but when i have to write...

Thanks in advance

Atrahasis
03-11-2008, 08:16
Yes, the Mark would grant +1 to the 4+ ward save.

We don't know - strictly by the rules, yes it would, as the rules only say it ends if you roll again.

Mr Kelly has said that it can be used to reroll the unit's rolls. That's the best we have until an official FAQ.