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Badger[Fr]
29-10-2008, 22:48
Hi all,

Here are a few rumours about the new IG Codex a friend of mine heard from a local GW manager. I trust him, as he had already provided me with very accurate informations concerning the 5th Ed SM Codex a few monthes ago. We can expect:

-3 Leman Russes per HS slot. Leman Russes can now move and fire ALL their weapons (including the Battle Canon), regardless of their strength. It seems that the designers want to bring the Leman Russ to the foreground...
-New doctrines, including one which provides +1 to cover and allows firing while going to ground.
-New Plastic Command squad.
-Assault 2 Lasguns (not free, though - probably an upgrade).
-The plastic Valkyrie will cost 60€.
-New plastic Hellhound (old news but good news anyway).

As usual, take it with a pinch of salt.

PS: I hope my English wasn't too bad... Don't hesitate to correct me if I did something wrong.

Edit: I was also told that in order to field 3 LR per HS slot, you'll have to meet "certain conditions". Maybe some kind of Tank Commander?

Octavius_Maximus
29-10-2008, 23:23
Your English is fine (with a few tiny inconsequential hiccoughs, but who cares about that?)

Leman Russes moving and firing EVERYTHING?!

Jeeeez Demolisher+Plasma cannons+Lascannon=DEATH...Thats awesome!

+1cover saveand firing while gone to ground? wow, thats so powerful. I wonder what the drawback is.

+Plastic command squad? Cool hope it includes advisors.

+Assault 2 lasguns? Perhaps they are 'Lascarbines'?

+60 pounds...so probably ends up around $150Oz, goddamn it...

+New hellhound? Dammit! Should i buy the forgeworld ones or not?!

Thanks for the rumours Badger!!!

biggreengribbly
29-10-2008, 23:26
It looks like he said 60 Euros not £s to me. £60 is like... Baneblade expensive.

Walls
29-10-2008, 23:26
Sound like rumors that are a bit far fetched and broken for my liking and I play guard!

The new mdoels sound realistic at least.

Badger[Fr]
29-10-2008, 23:32
60 pounds...so probably ends up around $150Oz, goddamn it...
60€ = roughly 50£. It's the same cost as Land Raider, if I remember correctly...

Octavius_Maximus
29-10-2008, 23:33
oh yeah, Euros :P woops

(Hardly better, though)

60 Euros currently is $115 according to Xe.com, if put into GWOz that will cost around a Land raider+a rhino

Bunnahabhain
29-10-2008, 23:33
If those are true, then IG just became the cheesemongers favourite.

t would take a total re-write of the vehicle rules to get the Russ moving and firing everything. This just seems far-fetched. Not that Russes don't make more sense like this, and fit the background better, but just it seems most unlikely.

New doctrines. This is interesting. We all though, from earlier info, doctrines were dead and buried. If we have a doctrine system like now, but with a bit more thought on some of them, ie drop troops not being free, and things like warrior weapons not being inflexible crap, then this is really good news.

The new plastics are not unexpected. Looks like the storm troopers are second wave then.

Rynar
29-10-2008, 23:34
sounds nice, altough a LR firering ALL weapons doesn't sound verry right to me. :wtf:
Maybe the BattleCannon OR all secondary weapons... (still gives alot of firepower if equiped with sponsons) :rolleyes:

+ I tought they wern't using the doctrines annymore, but we'll see I gues ;)

verydarkshadow
29-10-2008, 23:34
Wow! Those sound excellent.

The cynic in me wants to say that these even sound too good to be true, but then, it was the same way when I first heard about Sternguard, Vanguard and honour blades...

Here's hoping.

the_reaper
29-10-2008, 23:36
i can believe all of those, but i'm trying to figure out in what way they could incorporate an assault 2 lasgun...

Maybe the firing from going to ground will be like blind firing? At -1 BS perhaps?

As for the LR, finally..., i'd be happy to take 3! :D


-reaper

Octavius_Maximus
29-10-2008, 23:37
Ive considered the rumours like this:

Each Platoon can be upgraded to 'Specialists' (forward teams, Heavy weapons, etc) and each platoon can then take a Doctrine Upgrade (such as the Above +1 Cover and such), Heavy weapons may take Sharpshooters, and things like that.

Badger[Fr]
29-10-2008, 23:42
Bunnahabhain (I love that nick! Awesome whiskies ;)), I don't know if they will keep the current Doctrines rules. They will probably streamline them IMHO, one way or another.

BTW, I wasn't told anything about the new Platoon rules mentionned in an earlier thread.

cailus
30-10-2008, 00:05
Interesting stuff.

If one takes the rumour about 4 point Guard and the new one about a potential 9 Leman Russ per 3 heavy support slots, then one can see that perhaps the new IG codex will favour truly large IG armies - lots of infantry backed up by a lot of tanks.

I wonder if Leman Russes will become any cheaper in order to further facilitate this?

Firaxin
30-10-2008, 00:14
I predict the assault 2 lasgun will be a lasgun... the rapid fire version will be an autogun. Finally, a distinction.

Famder
30-10-2008, 00:44
If the Russ rumors are true I would expect one of two things to happen. A) Sponsons will go up significantly in price or 2) The Lemun Russ in general will go up in price significantly. In order to compensate for the increased ability of an already strong and resilient tank.

Firaxin
30-10-2008, 00:49
an already strong and resilient tank.
AV12/10 on the sides/rear isn't exactly resilient, especially in CC... besides, it's BS3, so half those new shots will miss, and it was already overcosted anyways.

mooze
30-10-2008, 00:50
No army, regardless of fluff, should get 9 tanks.That's so broken it isn't funny. Shooting everything whilst moving is bad enough. I had heard about the cheaper 4pt guardsmen (no heavy/special weapons) and the squads with increased heavy weapons. That sounds good. I hope they don't cheese up IG too badly. I like them as they are and this sort of ubercheddar would ruin this army since every waac plaer would rush out to buy it. I had also heard IG was getting more variety in their tanks ala imperial armour, that might be interesting. The only way 9 tanks with that amout of firepower would fill 3 heavy support choices is if they had armor 6 and could be killed by nearly anything. The problem is that in the interest of selling piles o' tanks they may well give IG tank squadrons.

Reinholt
30-10-2008, 01:01
I would be surprised if they stripped out doctrines only to re-introduce doctrines. That just seems odd to me.

Likewise, the Russ thing doesn't sound right either without a points adjustment.

Do we have any source for these rumors? (As in, did the manager say where he had heard them?)

vladsimpaler
30-10-2008, 01:03
That would be awesome if the Assault 2 lasgun was a Forward Team option.

I've gotta say though, if even half of this stuff comes true, then I will be very happy!

And Guard players will finally have gotten a codex that they rightfully deserve.

Maxis Lithium
30-10-2008, 01:17
There has been said that while Doctrines as we know them will be gone, it has also been said that platoons will be able to purchase specializations, like light infantry, per platoon. The ability for Stealth and the ability to fire while going to ground would be powerful, but not beyond the range of possibilities.

Assault 2 Lasguns would be the same as Eldar Lasblaster on a Swooping hawk, so that's not beyond believable either.

Plenty of new Plastic rumors is nice, though I would be interested in knowing what they are considering as options for command squads.

gLOBS
30-10-2008, 01:17
The downside to an assault 2 lasgun is that it is still a lasgun.

Splata
30-10-2008, 01:17
I see the "doctraines" still working exactly like the SM ones, you have the drill to allow you to not give cover saves from your own troops, then you take character X who allows you to change that drill into this new one that allows you to fire while gonetoground. Whether you can fire Heavies from this position it will ahve to be seen.

I would not be suprised if the Leman could fire all its secondaries or its primary while on the move. It is the aggressive tank but firing its top cannon would probably force it to miss with everthing else. Seems like a good trade off to me.

Are these tanks going to be in Vehicle squads? therefore if an immobilised result is suffered they are destroyed? This would make them a lot less powerful as a glance would be able to destroy them (albeit, on a 6) while at the same time a stunned would get down graded making them still be a forward tank.

In all I don't mind these rumours, at least putting my spin on them. With the proper pointing these things could all be balanced. Guard would still give away a lot of KP's but their tanks would give away very few, and it would kind of balance out.

Still my DE will be packing a lot of Dark lances from now on. Thats all I can say!

Natura
30-10-2008, 01:20
No army, regardless of fluff, should get 9 tanks.That's so broken it isn't funny.

My Orks can take 8 Battlewagons currently. It's hardly broken. The absolute minimum cost of a Leman Russ currently is 145 points. That's 1305 points for nine of them. Leaving you with 195 points to spend on HQ and Troops. With 5th ed being all about objectives, you're going to face a real uphill battle winning that game. You could try for an annihilation victory, except your 9 pie plates of doom only hit their target 1/3 of the time, and pretty much everyone can easily get a 4+ cover save against them. Or maybe you'll be playing kill points. Better hope you're not facing a horde army because they will make it to your lines and proceed to pop those AV10 tanks in meele with no trouble. Or that they have no flanking scouts/infiltrators. Or no jump troops. Or anti-tank guns.

Kirasu
30-10-2008, 01:26
If 9 tanks was scary armored company would actually win.. since it doesnt and with superior rules its not that scary for the above reasons

You have 1 advantage and almost every variable screws you

Xenobane
30-10-2008, 01:31
Shooting everything while moving...

I wish I could bring myself to believe it. Nice thought though. It would be in my Coedx:IG :)

Walls
30-10-2008, 01:48
Yeah, if these rumors are true then guard becomes supreme cheese. I was playing guard to avoid being cheese and would very likely give it up.

shakespear
30-10-2008, 01:53
Does anyone remember the "dog handler teams" rumor from before the current codex?

I wonder if they woudl bring back that idea. I think it would fit in great.

Badger[Fr]
30-10-2008, 02:02
(As in, did the manager say where he had heard them?)
During a meeting at the local GW head office. As I told previously, his rumours on the new Codex: Space Marines happened to be quite accurate.


Yeah, if these rumors are true then guard becomes supreme cheese.
Come on. At first, Orks were said to be the cheesiest army ever. Then, Daemons suddenly became the new cheesemongers army. Now, people keep complaining about the über Space Marines. IG will probably be next on the "OH NOES IT IS THE MOST BROKEN ARMY EVAH" whine list. :rolleyes:

T_55
30-10-2008, 02:13
Yeah, if these rumors are true then guard becomes supreme cheese. I was playing guard to avoid being cheese and would very likely give it up.

:eyebrows:

It's not like their forcing you to use alot of these options....

In any case does anyone else think the assault 2 lasguns draws an interesting reference to the 5th ED Rule Book Imperial Guard regiment illustrations, the one with double barreled lasguns maybe?

Walls
30-10-2008, 02:15
Tanks that can shoot everything while moving. Shooting while going to ground, which is essentially made so you get better cover but DO NOT shoot (gotta have balance), a better lasgun (come on, they aren't that bad. Yes, 1 on 1 they suck. But think of how many guns you get)...

...so how exactly is that not cheese?

Cheese is advantages with no balancing disadvantages. The rumors you've given, outside models, are just that. I like the older rumors better.

AllisterCaine
30-10-2008, 02:17
How does this correspond to the earlier rumors that weve heard? First theres these rumors about making the LR an attachment, than doctrines are definietly gone, and now this. Did the manager mention anything about the rumors stated in the New Imperial Guard Rumors thread? I must admit I HOPE yours is true, but the other does sound more believable even though the (rumored) changes are already radical.

T_55
30-10-2008, 02:20
Maybe its a combination, that's how you get 9 leman russes, 1 for each troop, 1 for a heavy support, instead of all in heavy. Makes them harder to kill i guess, but harder to get.

Kalishnikov-47
30-10-2008, 02:23
Maybe you have to take an IG tank commander in order to get all 3 Russ squadrons. Especially with them being squadrons they can now be killed on glancing hits......

AllisterCaine
30-10-2008, 02:37
Tanks that can shoot everything while moving. Shooting while going to ground, which is essentially made so you get better cover but DO NOT shoot (gotta have balance), a better lasgun (come on, they aren't that bad. Yes, 1 on 1 they suck. But think of how many guns you get)...

...so how exactly is that not cheese?

Cheese is advantages with no balancing disadvantages. The rumors you've given, outside models, are just that. I like the older rumors better.

So the predator tank was broken in 4th edition? The Exterminator? With so many 4+ cover saves, the effect of the BC is drastically reduced anyways, no matter if partials always hit and its not like 3 HBs hitting on a 4 is going to do that much damage anyways, again with the cover saves.

Assault 2 S3 Ap- weapons that hits on a 4! Yes we have a lot of them, but theyre still lasguns! Do you know how squads we will need to coordinate fire with to get the effect you so fear? Its most likely not going to happen, you can count on it. If plasma guns are involved, than its a whole different thing, but you dont have to worry about the lasguns. Just in case youre still wondering about the math- 2 squads, 36 shots, 18 hit, 6 wound (T4), 3 die (Sv4+). 3+ save, 2 die. 2+ save, 1.2 die. Terrifying, isnt it?

Walls
30-10-2008, 02:52
So... basically... people just want the most powerful stuff ever?

Why should Imperial Guard... MILLIONS AND BILLIONS... have bolters or anything even remotely powerful? They got tanks. They can field like 9 lascannons or more. They get tons of heavy weapons as is. There is a reason they have lasguns.

The US Military for years used M-16s. In the 20th century they practically were lasguns. Amongst the least powerful main gun of any infantry.

And your math is off. You ignored grenade launchers and heavy weapons. No one fields a squad of all lasguns. My argument is simply that you cannot have the best of every world: better guns, better cover, better tanks, better ability to always fire (Uh, I would go to ground ALL The time if you could still fire, why wouldn't you?)

The rumors seem to COMPLETELY change every time they come up. Seems odd.

I play guard. A large collection of them. I play with no doctrines and quite often with a very infantry heavy army. Other times with 2 hellhounds, 2 LR's and a chimera or 2. I just worry this could neuter alot of loyal IG players or turn them off for the same reason these rumors worry me. Some of us like playing the underdog.

Phangry
30-10-2008, 03:00
I am excited about these rumors and hope they are true. I would love to be able to fire all of my Russ's sponsoons while moving forward, since they aren't nearly as useful as they used to be.

Though if it is tank squadrons I don't know if I would want to take them that way, since they are much easier to destroy, but I suppose I'll just have to wait and see how this all pans out.

Lord-Gen Bale Chambers
30-10-2008, 03:04
The +1 cover save doctrine already exists in the current codex. This is the first rumour I have heard that it would be in the new codex. I am going to assume calling it a doctrine was how he tranlated it and it may be an upgrade for some platoons.

I was hoping they would classify heavy bolter sponsons on Leman Russes as defensive weapons. The rumour about being able to shoot all of them are a bit much. I wouldn't be surprized if this ended up being a 50 point upgrade or something similarly expensive.

Everyone worrying about 9 tanks in the 3 HS slots are what Jim Norton would call a bunch of Panic-y Petes. As mentioned already, that doesn't leave many points for much else. With the low rear armour and how so many armies can deep strike or infiltrate, it's fairly easy to get close and pop it with gernades.

Scorpion
30-10-2008, 03:52
Leman Russes moving and firing EVERYTHING?!

Jeeeez Demolisher+Plasma cannons+Lascannon=DEATH...Thats awesome!

Paraphrasing Lovecraft,

Yet with Russes firing everything,
even Death may die...

shutupSHUTUP!!!
30-10-2008, 04:12
A lot of hyperbole in this thread. Nine bs3 heavy bolter shots are likely to kill a single space marine, so if this rumour is true...

My Leman Russ tanks will each kill an extra marine a turn :eek:

Big deal.

zoodog
30-10-2008, 04:14
Well given their propensity in the latest codexs for everything to have some sort of model representation how do you think that will take place. Or will they avoid making guardplayers convert every unit they want a something special on.

Kalec
30-10-2008, 04:31
Wow, now my Leman Russ's will only be half as effective as in 4th, instead of 1/3 as effective!

Chem-Dog
30-10-2008, 04:31
Leman Russes can now move and fire ALL their weapons (including the Battle Canon), regardless of their strength. It seems that GW wants to bring the Leman Russ to the foreground...


This sounds a bit too good to be true, perhaps counting S5 weapons as Defensive (thus allowing Heavy Bolters to shoot on the move) could be feasable. Perhaps the 6" move doesn't apply the same limitations but I can't see a Russ getting away with a 12" move and shooting all guns, it would be insanity.


New doctrines, including one which provides +1 to cover and allows firing while going to ground.

Previous rumours have stated that while the current "doctrines" system is being scrapped there will be squad upgrades (actually "platoon upgrades" IIRC) and that a stealth one (equivalent of the current Camelioline Cloaks) would be in place, it's not totally out of line to require the squad to stay still to gain this benefit though (as currently you can skip about merrily with no compunction).


New Plastic Command squad.

Initial response is awesome, 000.2 seconds later it's met by the knowledge that it'll be Cadians.
Seriously though, this is such a no-brainer for GW, at worst it'll be like the Space Marine Command Squad, 5 regular joes with a bunch of new heads, weapons and accessories to allow you to field some the options (you know, Flag, Medic, Specialist, maybe a master Vox and of course an Officer).
Obviously I'd be more jazzed about this if it included some info on a possible new plastic regiment.


Assault 2 Lasguns (not free, though - probably an upgrade)

I'm a traditionalist on this front, I see no reason to change the Lasgun, I'd accept a separate fire mode (perhaps like the Dire Avengers Bladestorm) but don't think the basic weapon needs to be tweaked.


The plastic Valkyrie will cost 60€.

It's been said that just because we've seen 3D renders of a model doesn't mean they'll ever see the light of day. I'd love to see the Valk in plastic but I'm not holding my breath.

[/quote]PS: I hope my English wasn't too bad... Don't hesitate to correct me if I did something wrong.[/QUOTE]

I know english people who don't do as well as you did. ;)



t would take a total re-write of the vehicle rules to get the Russ moving and firing everything.

"The Leman Russ ignores the limitations placed on vehicles and how many weapons they can fire on the move, it may always fire all of it's weapons, provided they haven't been destroyed and the vehicle hasn't been shaken or stunned in the previous turn."

It literally took me a minute to type that out :p
As I said above, it's conceivable that the Russ might get a tweak but I think a certain amount of hyperbole comes with these rumours until a source has his hands on the codex and can give simple explanations of what exactly is printed.


If my Orks had testes, they would be snapping up into their abdomens to avoid being gobbled up by their puckering bungholes. I gotta know, do Orks sweat? If not, they do now!:cheese:

Such a magnificent mental image....:eek:


No army, regardless of fluff, should get 9 tanks.That's so broken it isn't funny.

So you wouldn't enjoy facing my Mechanised Infantry then?
It's been said before but it bears repeating. The size of army you'd need to effectively field 9 russes would make their presence on the table far less significant as that level of points game (we're talking apoc really) would allow the opponant to effectively deal with them quite easily.
That having been said, the CSM's can field three MC's in a legal army, the Chaos Daemons can field five, perhaps this is 40K's own proliferations race....


I am going to assume calling it a doctrine was how he tranlated it and it may be an upgrade for some platoons.


I agree with your whole post, but this part in particular deserves a round of applause. Nice to see some level headed and applied thinking round these parts!

The Dude
30-10-2008, 04:39
Nine bs3 heavy bolter shots are likely to kill a single space marine

They are also able to kill nine Space Marines per turn. Not likely, sure, but possiblility does count for something ;)


Well given their propensity in the latest codexs for everything to have some sort of model representation how do you think that will take place. Or will they avoid making guardplayers convert every unit they want a something special on.

A good point that needs repeating, zoodog. I don't see the Assault 2 upgrade for Lasguns being a different weapon, simply because there is as yet no way to differentiate them (unless they are Hellguns ;)). As Chem-Dog said, a different fire mode like Bladestorm sure, but not a different weapon.

Firaxin
30-10-2008, 05:07
That having been said, the CSM's can field three MC's in a legal army, the Chaos Daemons can field five

Ork battlewagons, CSM MCs, Daemon MCs... 3 pages and no one's mentioned 8 TMCs?!?! :eyebrows:

I honestly don't see how anyone can call IG with 9 leman russes cheesy.

Btw, whatever happened to the rumors about IG being able to shoot through members of their own platoon without giving the enemy a cover save? That one still 'round?

shutupSHUTUP!!!
30-10-2008, 05:14
There are plenty of benefits to rolling more dice, since the dice rolls are more likely to average out and have a higher potential to cause more kills. I'm more interested in how much the LR will cost though, because that's what will really define it's worth (literally I suppose).

Jericho
30-10-2008, 05:37
I really hope they don't make tanks more or less necessary in the new list. I know at least 2 other people in Edmonton that have carapace/drop troop armies made of all Kasrkin models and I don't want to be sitting on a pile of useless minis.

Lascarbine rules are very interesting. I've always maintained that more mobile IG units should have 18" assault2 guns hopefully it comes true. Just a bit more emphasis on mobility and denying the enemy charges. Not a huge difference of course but a welcome option.

AllisterCaine
30-10-2008, 06:41
So... basically... people just want the most powerful stuff ever?

Why should Imperial Guard... MILLIONS AND BILLIONS... have bolters or anything even remotely powerful? They got tanks. They can field like 9 lascannons or more. They get tons of heavy weapons as is. There is a reason they have lasguns.

The US Military for years used M-16s. In the 20th century they practically were lasguns. Amongst the least powerful main gun of any infantry.

And your math is off. You ignored grenade launchers and heavy weapons. No one fields a squad of all lasguns. My argument is simply that you cannot have the best of every world: better guns, better cover, better tanks, better ability to always fire (Uh, I would go to ground ALL The time if you could still fire, why wouldn't you?)

The rumors seem to COMPLETELY change every time they come up. Seems odd.

I play guard. A large collection of them. I play with no doctrines and quite often with a very infantry heavy army. Other times with 2 hellhounds, 2 LR's and a chimera or 2. I just worry this could neuter alot of loyal IG players or turn them off for the same reason these rumors worry me. Some of us like playing the underdog.

Why make real world comparisons? If I shot you with an M16 you would be dead...theres not going to be a 50% to hit, 33% to wound, and than you get a damn armor save. Thats a stupid comparison. I believe your argument was that the lasgun shouldnt be too powerful...it isnt. Even if it is assault 2, it still isnt. We are not talking about other weapons, we are talking about the lasgun. Dont talk about how powerful the lasgun is when youre entire reason behind it is that the guard can have tons of plasmas, lascannons, or tanks.

If you want to work hader to win, thats fine, none of my business. But some of us dont, and to have that as a reason against change is quite selfish. Good or not, Im sure the majority of the human popuation likes to win...not lose. Im not going to complain about it, but if your argument is an obstacle that is preventing the guard from becomming a better army, than it becomes my problem. Youd be surprised how stuff like these get into peoples head and eventually into GWs.

blameless
30-10-2008, 06:52
I honestly don't see how anyone can call IG with 9 leman russes cheesy.Btw, whatever happened to the rumors about IG being able to shoot through members of their own platoon without giving the enemy a cover save? That one still 'round?

I really hope this isnt true :confused:

I just dont see how IG would be MORE coordinated in their firing patterns than other more highly skilled/trained armies... ie, eldar, marines, sisters ect...

it just seems lame :(

on the tank front, 9 lemans is strong yes, but you can now take 6 raiders and then unlimited razorbacks as transports for the troops in the new marines list... that's pretty freaky! :eek:

shutupSHUTUP!!!
30-10-2008, 06:56
Othe rarmies may be more elite, but they don't put as many models down on the table so it's a practical issue they have less trouble with. It's just a game mechanic, it's not real, there's no need to be a sad panda.

Devil Tree
30-10-2008, 07:22
I’m a bit skeptical about the LR rumors. They sound a little too good to be true.

What I would defiantly like to see with the Russ’s, is the ability to fire their battle cannons and secondary weapons at the same time. Right now, if you miss badly enough with the main gun you pretty much wasted your points on the tank.

Shangrila
30-10-2008, 08:11
So... basically... people just want the most powerful stuff ever?

Why should Imperial Guard... MILLIONS AND BILLIONS... have bolters or anything even remotely powerful? They got tanks. They can field like 9 lascannons or more. They get tons of heavy weapons as is. There is a reason they have lasguns.

Yeah that hit on a 4+, even with 10 lascannon sentinels i mange to kill one TMC a turn. so with my Russes Hbs i might kill a warrior...this isnt even counting in the fact they will probably go up in points.

A space marine army can have 3 predators and 2 land raiders (plus dreads n razorbacks.) for a total of 9 TWIN LINKED lascannons and 6 more singles. Its not nearly as bad as it sounds.


...No one fields a squad of all lasguns...

I do. It works.Somtimes. Not against marines but just about everyone else...


I’m a bit skeptical about the LR rumors. They sound a little too good to be true.

What I would defiantly like to see with the Russ’s, is the ability to fire their battle cannons and secondary weapons at the same time. Right now, if you miss badly enough with the main gun you pretty much wasted your points on the tank.

I have to agree with you completely.

Vaktathi
30-10-2008, 08:24
;3048462']Hi all,

Here are a few rumours about the new IG Codex a friend heard from a local GW manager. I trust him, as he had already provided me with very accurate informations concerning the 5th Ed SM Codex a few monthes ago. We can expect:

-3 Leman Russes per HS slot. Leman Russes can now move and fire ALL their weapons (including the Battle Canon), regardless of their strength. It seems that GW wants to bring the Leman Russ to the foreground...
-New doctrines, including one which provides +1 to cover and allows firing while going to ground.
-New Plastic Command squad.
-Assault 2 Lasguns (not free, though - probably an upgrade).
-The plastic Valkyrie will cost 60€.
-New plastic Hellhound (old news but good news anyway).

As usual, take it with a pinch of salt.

PS: I hope my English wasn't too bad... Don't hesitate to correct me if I did something wrong.

If these are true, I need to change my pants...


Pinch of salt indeed, but man do they sound awesome.

Commodore Norrington
30-10-2008, 08:32
sounds nice, altough a LR firering ALL weapons doesn't sound verry right to me. :wtf:
Maybe the BattleCannon OR all secondary weapons... (still gives alot of firepower if equiped with sponsons) :rolleyes:

+ I tought they wern't using the doctrines annymore, but we'll see I gues ;)

Could very well be talking about the Conqueror. It has always been able to do this.

Epicenter
30-10-2008, 09:13
I’m a bit skeptical about the LR rumors. They sound a little too good to be true.

It does. But I'll admit, I was one of those naysayers who refused to believe that GW would make Sternguard as "stupidly unbalanced" as everyone was telling me they were. Even when people were saying "Epicenter, I held the codex in my hands and read it myself" I still refused to believe that GW would make a troop type for Marines that were like Falcoquins. Or Harlicons. Something. Then I heard that Space Marines got a cost decrease for lascannons again because someone thought even 15 point LCs cost too much.

Then I saw the codex myself. :eek:

So I guess I'm halfway willing to believe anything now. Not that I mind that much. A juvenile part of me has always wanted to stand around smugly like Eldar and Chaos players and say, "Well, yeah, my IG army doesn't take all the cheesy stuff because I like a challenge. See how much of a nice guy I'm being, not bringing my Farseer Horde?" and not understand why everyone thought I was being so condescending.

If these rumors are true, perhaps we IG players will finally know that feeling.

Still, 6" move and fire everything? I could see that. Especially if the LRs are in a squadron, so they have to fire all at the same target. And after the first turn, they'll be in popping in CC or one of the vehicles will be immobilized so they'll have to stand still or lose a tank if they move due to the Squadron rule.

demonllamma
30-10-2008, 09:51
;3048462']Hi all,

Here are a few rumours about the new IG Codex a friend heard from a local GW manager. I trust him, as he had already provided me with very accurate informations concerning the 5th Ed SM Codex a few monthes ago. We can expect:

-3 Leman Russes per HS slot. Leman Russes can now move and fire ALL their weapons (including the Battle Canon), regardless of their strength. It seems that GW wants to bring the Leman Russ to the foreground...
-New doctrines, including one which provides +1 to cover and allows firing while going to ground.
-New Plastic Command squad.
-Assault 2 Lasguns (not free, though - probably an upgrade).
-The plastic Valkyrie will cost 60€.
-New plastic Hellhound (old news but good news anyway).

As usual, take it with a pinch of salt.

PS: I hope my English wasn't too bad... Don't hesitate to correct me if I did something wrong.

Just my thoughts on all this stuff (and some of the other rumors).
Multiple Leman Russes for a single FOC:
Not really a big deal unless your army lacks legs. You will get there and you will kill them, and then he will have.....a few dozen guardsmen with lasguns! I've played against and with armored companies and they just don't function as well as everyone thinks they should.

Also, I rather think that if you take a tank commander (another of the rumors I've heard) you will be able to take the LRs as elites or somesuch. Even if the 3 LR squadrons are true, the lowered survivability of squadrons makes for a fair balance.

As for being able to shoot everything on the run, I kinda doubt it. But being able to fire your sponsons on the run I think is rather likely. Or changing defensive weapons on sponsons to S5. That makes sense to me, even without a significant points increase.

Doctrines:
These 'doctrines' will likely be similar to what we've seen in the SM codex (and others for that matter). You will have options/unique characters/etc to give you some of the options previously available in doctrines.

Plastic Command Squad:
Hooray. It's been needed for a while. It will probably be Cadian, but I could see them potentially doing one for Catachans as well. (It's possible anyhow).

Assault 2 Lasguns:
IMO this probably means (as was mentioned before) that there will be an optional load out for your guardsmen, i.e. lascarbine vs lasgun or even autogun vs lasgun (I'd like to see this one, it's fluffier IMO).

Plastic Valkryie Price:
Again good. About what I figured. I'm interested to see how these will work in the rules.


Overall, what I am seeing in the recent codeci (codeces, codexes, SP?) is something of a sideways power creep. Many things are being rebalanced in interesting ways so while you might get lots of new abilities, you are giving something else up for those abilities. I'm still finding new stuff I can do with the SM codex that, while useful, is not always going to be what I want to do.

Barbarossa
30-10-2008, 10:16
Maybe the rumoured Assault 2 lasgun will be the new Hellgun? I mean, S3 AP 5 was never really worth it. Assault 2 would be better, even if it's S3 AP -.

Badger[Fr]
30-10-2008, 10:32
As I told you, I wasn't given much information on these new "Doctrines". I suppose there will be some kind of Platoon upgrades, unlike the current rules.

I was also told that in order to field 3 LR per HS slot, you'll have to meet "certain conditions". Maybe some kind of Tank Commander?

Da Black Gobbo
30-10-2008, 11:05
Hmmmm, sweet sweet rumours, i'm waiting those plastic valks, hope they are in the new 'dex. Stormtrooper/airborne army...yessss.

x-esiv-4c
30-10-2008, 11:08
Yes, thats the sound of a million SM players filling their pants.

Plastic Parody
30-10-2008, 11:19
I predict the assault 2 lasgun will be a lasgun... the rapid fire version will be an autogun. Finally, a distinction.

or hell gun maybe?

Yamagon
30-10-2008, 11:23
Assault 2 Las guns could be like the SM's Combat tactics.

I could see the basic troop have it, but other platoon types (as rumoured) having regular lasguns.

This could be ultra speculation, but i think that the squads of Leman Russ's are true. As often teh rule book prepared for future releases, such as Space Marine HQ state change in the summaries, Boss Zagstruk in the mini-section. In the section on battlefields... i dont have it with me so i cant look up the page... one of the battle fields is a siege with IG vs Orks. There is distinctly 3(or 2... of memory) russes together, and the Heavy support slots are filled, IIRC, implying squadrons.

The same goes for another picture, where there are the tau and IG together in a picture set in tuntra. There are 3 russes together. Possibly a squadron.

I like looking at IG models.... what can i say?

Natura
30-10-2008, 11:49
Heck, being able to take 3 Leman Russes in a squadron sounds more like a nerf than a buff, since they'll be destroyed on an immobilized result, which can be gained through glancing hits. Nids and Necrons, rejoice!

shakespear
30-10-2008, 11:55
Im sure there will be a point increase across the board as well as tanks being required. Why? IG as a horde army simply doesnt fit on the "official" table size. 12" deployment zone filled with men that die horribly to templates.

Scale in this game reduces/eliminates tactics as well as getting the first turn is so important to winning, so a filled deployment zone is deadly

shabbadoo
30-10-2008, 12:33
Heck, being able to take 3 Leman Russes in a squadron sounds more like a nerf than a buff, since they'll be destroyed on an immobilized result, which can be gained through glancing hits. Nids and Necrons, rejoice!

It's an *option*; not the only way to field them. I'd hardly call added flexibility within an army list a nerf. Feel free to buy them at 1 per Heavy Support slot, or as a Platoon support unit instead if the rumor of this option turns out to be true. Then there are track guards...

Flatline
30-10-2008, 12:36
Im sure there will be a point increase across the board as well as tanks being required. Why? IG as a horde army simply doesnt fit on the "official" table size. 12" deployment zone filled with men that die horribly to templates.

Scale in this game reduces/eliminates tactics as well as getting the first turn is so important to winning, so a filled deployment zone is deadly

Well I'm equally sure that you are wrong. GW has stated that they want the IG to be an army of massed men and tanks that wins through attrition. No way are they going to do that by putting the points of stuff up.

I'm somewhat sceptical about these rumours, although I can see that they may be the result of poor understanding and mis-translation of the actual rules. I mean, I've had people misquote rules out of the codex even when they are holding it! I guess we will just have to wait and see.

SPYDER68
30-10-2008, 13:09
I have a feeling if you can shoot and go to the ground at the same time for guard its going to mean 1 thing, its the new Cameloline, which is going to be a downgrade, they will not give guard a 2+ cover save while shooting.

Its going to be.. you get the current 3+ cover save, but you cannot move next turn, but you can still shoot while going to the ground.

And Leman Russ can fire all weapons ? Well, you still have the, you cannot fire anything else if you shoot ordinance that turn.

Assault las guns ? That is what is needed, they are already weak, give them a little something at least. Long as we get the range and 2 shots still.

9x battle tanks ? let people take em, they will get walked across with 66.66% of the missions as Objective missions.

They just better have some good drop troop rules for my guard.

Colonel Fitzgerald
30-10-2008, 13:11
AV12/10 on the sides/rear isn't exactly resilient, especially in CC... besides, it's BS3, so half those new shots will miss, and it was already overcosted anyways.

Exactly what I was going to say! Actually hitting a target that's not a land raider or 30 orks is quite the task with bs3 ordnance - not to mention the almost ornamental sponsons (BS3 Heavy Bolters just feel weedy when your opponent laughs 3 in 6 shots off before rolls to wound...)

Famder
30-10-2008, 13:33
Exactly what I was going to say! Actually hitting a target that's not a land raider or 30 orks is quite the task with bs3 ordnance - not to mention the almost ornamental sponsons (BS3 Heavy Bolters just feel weedy when your opponent laughs 3 in 6 shots off before rolls to wound...)

Armor 12/10 is plenty resilient with an AV14 in the front, my battlewagon survives plenty of shots because of that front arc. Throw in cover saves and the tank is plenty survivable. For a Battlewagon to get close to a LR it costs 165pts and it only gets 1 shot if it moves at BS2. We'll say that being able to transport models is an equal trade off for being able to move and fire all weapons. I don't even think the LR should cost that much, 150 is a good price for a standard russ if the current rumors are accurate. With sponsons it would cost 160.

Or keep it as is and make sponsons 20pts.

jdp
30-10-2008, 13:40
No army, regardless of fluff, should get 9 tanks.That's so broken it isn't funny. Shooting everything whilst moving is bad enough.

Well, lets consider how much those 9 tanks would cost, a Russ w/ standard kit, lascannon, h bolters per the plastic kit, is 165pts so we're talking 1485pts. That is if the points don't go up and with a special rule like lots of crew men, shoot all weapons while moving, odds are they are going up in price. However even w/o a price bump you have still used up a standard games point costs just in HS and you don't have an HQ or any troops. So yeah you could see this in high pts games, but we were seeing this in apoc. anyways. Not that much of a change. ( and if I'd read 2 more posts I would have seen this argument stated already, guess I should read farther into the thread before respnding..)

Plastic command has possibilities, I would like to see some advisors in plastic, but I'm not holding my breath getting the energy based special weapons in plastic for this squad would be nice as well.

I'm guessing $75US for the Valkyrie which puts it at less than half of the FW version and wouldn't be too bad I'll take 3 in my army to tote my stormies!:D

SPYDER68
30-10-2008, 13:43
I highly doubt a base army transport is going to cost over $60 at most possible, the new drop pods were $30, and there is more plastic in a land raider then in a Valk, id guess it will be around $45 is all, they wont make many sales if they sell valks for $75 each, expecially with guard as a swarm army using alot of them.

Plastic Parody
30-10-2008, 13:55
Surely if defensive weapon strength was going to be tinkered with in dexes they should have made it race specific in the rule book from the outset. An exeption like that is pretty big IMHO. Whats next Tyranids with a basic move of 8" as standard?

Ironhand
30-10-2008, 14:39
I would be surprised if they stripped out doctrines only to re-introduce doctrines. That just seems odd to me.

Likewise, the Russ thing doesn't sound right either without a points adjustment.


I suspect he was using the current term for the rumored new "platoon drills".

There's a big difference between "3 Russes per HS slot" and being able to take a squadron of something as a single heavy support choice. Squadrons are at a significant disadvantage under the current rules, as some other posters have noted.


The downside to an assault 2 lasgun is that it is still a lasgun.

Everybody can't have a bolter you know. Besides, never discount a weapon - I've seen a squad of Terminators die by the fire of a Guard platoon more than once. Shoot enough lasguns at almost anything and you'll kill it.


;3048844']Come on. At first, Orks were said to be the cheesiest army ever. Then, Daemons suddenly became the new cheesemongers army. Now, people keep complaining about the über Space Marines. IG will probably be next on the "OH NOES IT IS THE MOST BROKEN ARMY EVAH" whine list. :rolleyes:

Well, that's why some folks call it "Whineseer" :D

Lord Cook
30-10-2008, 20:25
Surely if defensive weapon strength was going to be tinkered with in dexes they should have made it race specific in the rule book from the outset. An exeption like that is pretty big IMHO. Whats next Tyranids with a basic move of 8" as standard?

I know, next we'll be getting a marine unit that can assault after deep striking! Oh wait...

Ozorik
30-10-2008, 21:29
(Uh, I would go to ground ALL The time if you could still fire, why wouldn't you?)

You mean like every trained army has done for well over a century? Not only does going to ground make it much less likely that you will be shot but the prone position is also by far the most accurate shooting stance so, really, its a no brainer. I for one have looked for something like this for years. There is no way an army made up almost entirely of light infantry is going to be standing up in a firefight.

Even WWII era Soviet infantry (which the IG is heavily based upon) made good use of cover.

A dose of realism in 40k? Never. Its a shame that this rumour is almost certainly false as it would be nice for GW to do something reasonable for once.

Bearing in mind that this is guardsmen that we are talking about so its impact on game balance will be slight.

Damocles8
31-10-2008, 01:56
Here's a bone for everyone.....if this rumor of LR shooting all weapons is true....I could see the drawback as only being able to move 6" per turn (ala super heavies; lets face it it really should be a not-quite-super heavy tank)....no more...

Octavius_Maximus
31-10-2008, 01:58
I would love that! If Imperial Guard Tanks were Lumbering! Brilliant!

senorcardgage
31-10-2008, 02:19
I'm sorry, but this sounds like an IG player's wet dream. Why would leman russes not be 3 for one slot AND be able to move and fire all weaponry? Why would they be the only ones who could do this? Why in god's name would the guardsmen be able shoot while going to ground? This is waaaaay too powerful...

Pitalla Crimson
31-10-2008, 02:21
is it truth that there will be plastic valhallans?
or its just a rummor?

I got a squad as a gift from my godparents (dont know where he got em, says in a store in downtown lol) and I am thinking on starting a combat patrol with them.

so I dont know if I should get the old metals or wait for the supposted new minis.

cheers.

Adyger
31-10-2008, 02:24
Here's a bone for everyone.....if this rumor of LR shooting all weapons is true....I could see the drawback as only being able to move 6" per turn (ala super heavies; lets face it it really should be a not-quite-super heavy tank)....no more...

That is an awesome idea. And one that totally makes sense to me. Even from a flavour perspective, I think that is an awesome trade off. How cool would it be though if other "almost super heavy tanks" (like the predator) had a similar rule. I get that the guard use the tank as their hammer, but I believe that as far as battlefield role goes, the SM predator is its equal. Neither of them is the "flying transport of death" tank that say, the Eldar Falcon or a Land Raider can be. For that matter, it would actually make more sense to me for the Land Raider's to lose their ability to fire so well on the go and to give that role to the Predator instead.

Octavius_Maximus
31-10-2008, 02:29
I'm sorry, but this sounds like an IG player's wet dream. Why would leman russes not be 3 for one slot AND be able to move and fire all weaponry? Why would they be the only ones who could do this? Why in god's name would the guardsmen be able shoot while going to ground? This is waaaaay too powerful...

The rumours for Russes said they were a squadron, not 3 for 1 slot...Also they are quite old and might have been changed.

They are the only one who can do this since a Leman Russ (according to Imperial Armour) has a maximum speed of 34 Km on road and 24km off road. Compared to a Marine Predator with a speed of 68km on road and 50km off road. The Leman Russ is a heavy tank, a Predator a speedy Support tank.

Why would Guardsmen be able to go to ground and shoot?

Since they are trained to? Marines are too gung ho, Eldar are cant go to ground too often since it slows them down, and gets them killed. Orks are too Fik, Nids wouldnt bother, etc etc etc.

Hardly too powerful if the points and caveats are in check.

Compare the current Leman Russ Battle tank vs the Tau Railhead+ DPod that will show you what is up with our book

Xenobane
31-10-2008, 02:36
I'm sorry, but this sounds like an IG player's wet dream. Why would leman russes not be 3 for one slot AND be able to move and fire all weaponry? Why would they be the only ones who could do this? Why in god's name would the guardsmen be able shoot while going to ground? This is waaaaay too powerful...

IG players have had to work with an outdated and underpowered codex for years. I'm not saying for a minute that all these impressive sounding rumours will be in the codex, but the Guard clearly need some quite serious changes to compete at the top end (because just dropping unit costs won't do it...) In that context, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see some powerful rules of this kind make it to the codex.

Each new codex allows some overriding of supposedly sacrosanct core rules to give the army something unique and exciting. Guard might be the poor relative of the GW family, but let's hope they aren't different in this respect.

charlie_c67
31-10-2008, 11:36
Something people seem to forget is that 9 russes are gonna be a hell of a lot of points. Bearing in mind that you need to have at least two troops platoons of 3-5 squads (or more?) plus a decent command that won't wet their pants and run t the first sign of trouble leaves me sceptical that you can cram in 9 russes in a 1500 point or even 2000 point game. Besides, 9 tanks is a lot easier to deal with than an infantry swarm...

Ravensgard
31-10-2008, 11:55
Too bad that the valkyre is so costly.
Maybe you can only take a max of 3 Leman Russ, but it is accounted as 1 HS choice. That would still be nice because you can fill in an extra heavy support plattoon and maybe a new tank or so. THat would be reasonable imo

nathonicus
31-10-2008, 12:44
People keep saying that 3 LR squadrons will be broken/cheesy, but do you know how quickly they will go under to some armies due to the squadron rule?

Firstly, it's going to be really hard to get 3 battle tanks in a position where they have a cover save.

Secondly, getting hit vs. Rear armor 10 is a nightmare, and since the hits get spread around the squadron, your average mc/demon prince will be doing a penetrating hit on each tank, and maybe doubling up on some if he can get into btb with just one tank.

And against all attacks, shooting and hth, the tanks are TWICE as likely as a tank not in a squadron to be destroyed, due to the immobilization results becoming destroyed.

Not only that, but due to the squadrons, you're enemies won't be wasting damage results any more when firing squads with multiple AT weapons at your tank, as they will get spread round the squadron.

borithan
31-10-2008, 15:03
I sure hope they don't get rid of armoured fist squads. Sure, you can get armoured platoons, but if they do get rid of them they would have to have minimum troops of 50 guys (two platoons, each of 25 guys).

Flipmode
31-10-2008, 15:21
Firstly, it's going to be really hard to get 3 battle tanks in a position where they have a cover save.

Secondly, getting hit vs. Rear armor 10 is a nightmare, and since the hits get spread around the squadron, your average mc/demon prince will be doing a penetrating hit on each tank, and maybe doubling up on some if he can get into btb with just one tank.

And against all attacks, shooting and hth, the tanks are TWICE as likely as a tank not in a squadron to be destroyed, due to the immobilization results becoming destroyed.

Not only that, but due to the squadrons, you're enemies won't be wasting damage results any more when firing squads with multiple AT weapons at your tank, as they will get spread round the squadron.

The ignoring of crew stunned without buying extra armour isn't too bad. And you can get track guards to reduce the chance of an immobilised result.

Also, not sure where you are getting TWICE as likely from? A rll of 5 or 6 will destroy a tank currently. It will increase to 4,5 or 6. That is not TWICE as likely.

Squadrons are not a major disadvantage considering the bonus it grants. (3 LR plus 2 HS slots still free)

Captain Marius
31-10-2008, 15:23
I don't see why Leman Russes would use the squadron rules; I think it's more likely that the squadron will simply be bought as a single HS choice of three separate units (following the precedent of Infantry Platoons). There may well even be rules for a Command Tank (ignore shaken results within 6" etc) to encourage the tanks to stay near each other, but I really wouldn't expect them to be bound by the full vehicle squadron rules.

Regarding how powerful this option would be; Yes three Russes for one HS slot is a scary prospect, but as aforementioned, their cost and vulnerability in close combat will balance them. You'll need plenty of Infantry to screen your Russes from assaulting enemy units and the points costs will quickly add up.

There were also rumours of Russ tanks being attached to certain Infantry Platoons as a support choice IIRC.

nathonicus
31-10-2008, 15:43
Also, not sure where you are getting TWICE as likely from? A rll of 5 or 6 will destroy a tank currently. It will increase to 4,5 or 6. That is not TWICE as likely.

Squadrons are not a major disadvantage considering the bonus it grants. (3 LR plus 2 HS slots still free)

My Bad - it was really early when I wrote that, and for some reason I thought that it was only a six that destroyed in 5th.... whoops!

I think you're right, and that squadrons are not a major disadvantage - I think they nicely balance the advantage of taking three battle tanks. In this manner, the IG get a pretty significant buff with only minor drawbacks, which is what is needed to make them a competitive army in5th.

Cheers,

Flipmode
31-10-2008, 16:05
Hehe. No worries.I've just been embarrassing myself on the Rules forum so had to jump on another person's mistake!

MrBigMr
31-10-2008, 17:11
Has there been anything about Rough Riders? I've been looking through these threads but nothing special has stuck in mind. With the new SM Scout bikers, especially as I use Scout legs on my IG, I'm tempted to do some biker riders. I truly hope they'll be more than just lancers.

Lord Cook
31-10-2008, 17:31
How cool would it be though if other "almost super heavy tanks" (like the predator) had a similar rule.

How is the predator anywhere near? It's a far lighter, smaller tank with far weaker armour and lighter armament. It barely deserves the title 'Main Battle Tank', let alone anything above that.


Also, not sure where you are getting TWICE as likely from?

It doesn't make it twice as likely, but remember a 6 with a glancing hit would destroy a vehicle from a squadron as well, where it would just immobilize before.

Luisjoey
31-10-2008, 18:19
IG needs a way to survive anihilation format

3 VP per platoon, that dies so easey is very bad! even more if you need to put at least 2 platoons per army compulsory requirement

something about this?

Devil Tree
31-10-2008, 19:27
On the topic of being able to go to ground and still shoot, could other armies besides IG do it? It’s basic military doctrine with humans now and probably in the future, but would it apply with aliens?

Space Marines: Could try but are way too big and bulky with their size and armor, that and all the bright colors give them away.
Eldar: Have radically different weapons and army doctrines based on mobility.
Necrons: Seem to have no regard for their “lives”, so why bother, “We’ll be Back”.
Tyranids: Have the whole hive mind thing taking over their better judgment, if they have any that is.
Orks: Are too crazy to care.
Tau: I could see this applying to them fluff wise, but giving it to them rules wise wound be totally broken. That and getting up with those hooves must be a pain.

Shangrila
31-10-2008, 20:07
People keep saying that 3 LR squadrons will be broken/cheesy, but do you know how quickly they will go under to some armies due to the squadron rule?

Firstly, it's going to be really hard to get 3 battle tanks in a position where they have a cover save.

Secondly, getting hit vs. Rear armor 10 is a nightmare, and since the hits get spread around the squadron, your average mc/demon prince will be doing a penetrating hit on each tank, and maybe doubling up on some if he can get into btb with just one tank.

And against all attacks, shooting and hth, the tanks are TWICE as likely as a tank not in a squadron to be destroyed, due to the immobilization results becoming destroyed.

Not only that, but due to the squadrons, you're enemies won't be wasting damage results any more when firing squads with multiple AT weapons at your tank, as they will get spread round the squadron.


I think people are getting a little over-exaggerated with the whole "squadron" of leman russ'. If we get 3 leman's itll be just like a heavy weapons platoon,infantry platoon or the command HQ squad: they take up one slot and are together for the purposes of reserves but may deploy and act independently.


Yeah, it's kind of like comparing a Fiat to a Pz IV...

What a Predator to a Leman russ or to a baneblade?

Mr Kibbles
31-10-2008, 21:47
Holy Moly! THis is great! I mean in terms of the opening of the topic.

I'M with you there, buddy!

royalpain88
01-11-2008, 11:47
here is what I am thinking with the Russ squadron. It may be a one time slot only. Like you are allowed to have three russes as one Heavy Weapons choice t you are limited to doing this once. It not only makes it fair but also far easier for the player to afford, transport and field. However, if this is true, then that would place all other armies that still have their 4th edition at a serious disadvantage. All except for Tau who could counter act this with one to two full teams of Broadsides. Now that'll be one hell of a match to see.

T_55
01-11-2008, 12:14
If players wanted it easier all they'd have to do is take less tanks, its not like their forcing you to take all 9...

shutupSHUTUP!!!
01-11-2008, 18:59
I think people are getting a little over-exaggerated with the whole "squadron" of leman russ'. If we get 3 leman's itll be just like a heavy weapons platoon,infantry platoon or the command HQ squad: they take up one slot and are together for the purposes of reserves but may deploy and act independently.

Why would they give you the advantages of squadrons with none of the disadvantages?

In my view, GW has realized that expanding the IG's heavy support options is pointless whilst most people max out of russes, so they are shaking the army up to make them less of an obvious choice. Leman Russes are going to become cheaper but worse or better yet concerningly expensive, and either fielded alongside troops choices or in squadrons as the rumour describes. Thus leaving the player with force org slots and points to spare, which he can then spend real world £$ on more flashy new toys. In the far off future LR's will then get a new plastic kit and new, better rules and everyone will replace the stuff they bought when the new dex comes out with russes again, and so the cycle of GW life will continue.

The Hawk Lord
01-11-2008, 19:27
"A lot of hyperbole in this thread. Nine bs3 heavy bolter shots are likely to kill a single space marine, so if this rumour is true...

My Leman Russ tanks will each kill an extra marine a turn

Big deal."

Look if i kill 1 Space Marine with my guard i would be happy, atm the only army my guard army can beat are orks, this because

Infantry and the Leamn Russ are too pricey
There is no finishing power or running attack with guard which has a decent chance of working
The guard cannot kill several types of choice effectively

If these rumours ae true i would be a very very happy catachan toad

Mkstein
01-11-2008, 19:29
What Nazis?

Sounds good, but I don't see any reason to complain. Lump it; they're not gonna read warseer and go - 'Oh, X doesn't like this rule, lets change it.

I hope its true and is as good a codex as the previous (current) one.

aka_mythos
02-11-2008, 00:29
Why would they give you the advantages of squadrons with none of the disadvantages?


I agree.
Honestly, look at it this way, with the armored company rules from way back when they included those rules about lucky shots from anything possibly taking out a leman russ, those rules made it that almost anything had a chance of taking down a russ. Putting them in squadrons and having them die if immobilized is not as bad when you couple it with fact that almost every single vehicle in this edition has gotten some form of cost down, so chances are a squadroned russes are likely to cost less. Also as many have pointed out the upgrade that mitigates the likely event of immobilization will become that much more valuable, I could even see GW give that upgrade for free.

I think it'll be impossible to do a codex legal armored company in anything less than a 2000pt game. That's making certain assumptions like that you wanting to use armored fist platoons to fit in and that it will even be possible to field 9 Russ'. Fielding 9 Russ' with stripped down platoons I think would be easier. Also without knowing all the new toys or how its written out its impossible to speak for the viability of options. Like will demolishers be a 0-1 upgrade in a squadron or a whole FOC slection in and unto itself?

Lord Cook
02-11-2008, 01:07
I had no idea the nazis were anywhere close to developing something like that.

They weren't ;). It never really got further than a pipe dream, other than a possible rumoured turret.


Also codex legal armored company? thoughts?

Incredibly unlikely. Jervis has said several times before that it would just be too impractical to make it balanced.

MajorWesJanson
02-11-2008, 03:27
I have a feeling that Russ squadrons will be priced out fine by making an upgrade character similar to chronus, but non-unique.

Tank Commander:
XX points
Take as an upgrade for a Leman Russ.

Squadron Commander: You may form this tank and up to two other Leman Russ tanks into a squadron. This squadron takes up one heavy support slot.

Tank Ace: Any tank in this squadron, if within 12," may fire as though it was a fast vehicle.

vladsimpaler
02-11-2008, 03:48
Incredibly unlikely. Jervis has said several times before that it would just be too impractical to make it balanced.

Jervis Johnson said this?

Isn't he the guy who said that only 5% of people are tournament players?

Well the other 95% who play for fun won't mind at all! :p

t-tauri
02-11-2008, 07:46
A large number of off-topic posts removed. Please remember this is news and rumours not German tanks of WWII.

Zithaska
02-11-2008, 18:04
I have said this once, and I will say it again. I don't care about Leman Russ squadrons. (Well, I do, but...) What I want are Basilisk squadrons!

Josserand
02-11-2008, 22:34
Sounds like it was a good move for me to wait for the new codex then :P
The leman russ sounds... a little bit broken, no? Can't wait to see :D

Mr Kibbles
03-11-2008, 00:48
I can't wait to see these russes aswell, whatever the hell they are.

sniperjolly
03-11-2008, 22:15
The IG always had an assault 3 str3 ap- weapon,

It's called the shotgun. (and nobody uses it(much))

MadDoc
03-11-2008, 22:52
The IG always had an assault 3 str3 ap- weapon,

It's called the shotgun. (and nobody uses it(much))

Shotguns are Assault 2 (I'm going to assume you knew that already though, and just typed '3' by mistake). I take it what you were getting at was the rumoured Str 3 AP - Assault 2 lasguns being the same as shotguns(?). Except of course that shotguns have half the range of lasguns... :angel:

Devil Tree
03-11-2008, 23:20
Actually the shotgun is assault 2 strength 3. No one uses it because it has a measly range 12”. In effect it’s a short ranged lasgun that lets you assault after firing, which you don’t what to be doing anyways. If it had a longer range or more killing power, people might actually use them.

Firaxin
04-11-2008, 00:03
And that's why shotguns should be Str4.

MadDoc
04-11-2008, 00:07
Actually the shotgun is assault 2 strength 3. No one uses it because it has a measly range 12”. In effect it’s a short ranged lasgun that lets you assault after firing, which you don’t what to be doing anyways. If it had a longer range or more killing power, people might actually use them.

As I'd already said almost half an hour before you posted. :angel: :p


And that's why shotguns should be Str4.

QFT

Firaxin
04-11-2008, 00:17
QFT
:D

Although if shotguns are strength 4, and lasguns are assault 2, it begs the question, what will be done with hellguns?

Hashut
04-11-2008, 00:57
Rough riders? Any word on the fate of Rough Riders?

Hellebore
04-11-2008, 01:56
Actually, making a shotgun S3 Assault 3 sounds like an interesting idea, a combination of shot spread and RoF. It would be different, rather than making it almost as good as the supposedly hyperadvanced shuriken catapult.

Hellebore

TheOverlord
04-11-2008, 02:11
I'm all for assault 3 shotguns. I never believed in str 4 shotguns, as str 4 in this game is the equivalent to a .75 calibre explosive tipped rocket-propelled shell, the buck-shot of the shotgun should be represented with more shots.

I can only imagine 12 stormtroopers with shotguns barging out of a chimera now with 3 flamers. So many shots, so little bodies to hit them with :D

Vaktathi
04-11-2008, 04:42
As I'm trying to bring together all the various rumors in my head regarding what's been posted about IG, if they all turn out to be true we'd be seeing Leman Russ squadrons which can fire all their weapons along with 4pt guardsmen and presumably better stormtroopers, new LR variants, etc.


Assuming all this is true, IG start to look rather ridiculously gross. While 9 LR tanks would be almost all an armies points, for a 2000pt game it wouldn't be out of the ordinary to be able to fit 6 Leman Russ tanks putting out all sorts of nasty pain, 3 hellhounds, and 100 infantry with various weapons?

As much as I want IG to be competitive again, and as much as I think the LR needs a boost, I just can't see all of these being true. The idea of 9 medium/heavy tanks with blast/template weapons in addition to heavy bolters and/or lascannon, plus dozens of infantry with all sort of nasty guns just sounds too brutal. I could see it if LR's weren't allowable as Squadrons, but dropping two pie-plates, two lascannons and four heavy bolters onto something, and doing that three times a turn, is too much for me to reasonably see, although anti-tank CC units would likely put an end to them quickly, its just too much firepower to be believable right now.

Firaxin
04-11-2008, 05:10
Don't forget the abundance of cover saves largely negates the battle cannon now.

MadDoc
04-11-2008, 06:47
:D

Although if shotguns are strength 4, and lasguns are assault 2, it begs the question, what will be done with hellguns?

Remember though that Assault 2 lasguns supposedly cost, so if the same was done to hellguns (Assault 2 upgrade at cost) there wouldn't be to much of an issue.

I personally don't think hellguns are at all bad anyway, and I don't think they will (or should) change dreadfully much (if at all). And unlike like some people (you know who you are :p) I definitely don't think hellguns need Rending. :eyebrows:

Vaktathi
04-11-2008, 08:03
I personally don't think hellguns are at all bad anyway, and I don't think they will (or should) change dreadfully much (if at all). And unlike like some people (you know who you are :p) I definitely don't think hellguns need Rending. :eyebrows:Hellguns aren't that bad? An AP5 lasgun for a 10pt model?

If ST's were 6pts they wouldn't be bad. At 10pts, make it assault 2 S4 or Assault 3 S3, anything less and you need to drop them below 10pts. At 10pts each with AP5 lasguns, ST's really just never put out enough hurt to make much more of a difference than 16 guardsmen for the same cost with more bodies.

Ravensgard
04-11-2008, 08:25
imo Hellguns should be strength 4 AP6, since they are stronger than the casual lasgun. About the shotgun, I agree with the assault 3 rule.

Kriegschmidt
04-11-2008, 09:14
I read the rumours on page 1 and thought "OMG, that's terrifying!". But then the Imperial Guard is the one army that I would expect to be totally overwhelmed by (even the Molvanian 812th :D)

So bring it on :evilgrin:

MadDoc
04-11-2008, 09:36
Hellguns aren't that bad? An AP5 lasgun for a 10pt model?

If ST's were 6pts they wouldn't be bad. At 10pts, make it assault 2 S4 or Assault 3 S3, anything less and you need to drop them below 10pts. At 10pts each with AP5 lasguns, ST's really just never put out enough hurt to make much more of a difference than 16 guardsmen for the same cost with more bodies.

Yea, because its not like ST can Infiltrate and Deep Strike at all... :rolleyes: You can't selectively omit important considerations when trying to make a point, it only serves to lessen the point you're trying to make not strengthen it.

AP 5 Assault 2 would be the most they should have, they shouldn't be Str 4 they aren't boltguns (in spite of my support of Str 4 shotguns earlier, I'm not really a fan, but since Marine shotguns already are, then for consistency sake Guard shotguns should be as well).

I play Guard, amongst other things, I'm just not in favour of GW doing another broken Codex.

Frostea
04-11-2008, 10:33
I play Guard, amongst other things, I'm just not in favour of GW doing another broken Codex.

I think the new idea for GW is to make everything broken, so effectively everything would be balanced, as it's a matter of simple scissors paper and stone.

Morganstern
04-11-2008, 10:37
AP 5 Assault 2 would be the most they should have, they shouldn't be Str 4 they aren't boltguns (in spite of my support of Str 4 shotguns earlier, I'm not really a fan, but since Marine shotguns already are, then for consistency sake Guard shotguns should be as well).

Hellguns were strength 4 in 2nd ed. Even though in 2nd they were known as lasguns with a hotshot power pack. I see no problem with strength 4 hellguns as they are essentially lasguns that are overcharged almost to the point of failure.

Octavius_Maximus
04-11-2008, 10:45
Yea, because its not like ST can Infiltrate and Deep Strike at all... You can't selectively omit important considerations when trying to make a point, it only serves to lessen the point you're trying to make not strengthen it.

uhh...normal guardsmen can do that too.

Infiltrate costs the same and Deep strike is *Cheaper*



AP 5 Assault 2 would be the most they should have, they shouldn't be Str 4 they aren't boltguns (in spite of my support of Str 4 shotguns earlier, I'm not really a fan, but since Marine shotguns already are, then for consistency sake Guard shotguns should be as well).

Sooo...your saying noone should use Stormtroopers?



I play Guard, amongst other things, I'm just not in favour of GW doing another broken Codex.

...ok, so you want guard to be underpowered for ANOTHER iteration?

Jeez. Thats why you play the 'other things.'

The Dude
04-11-2008, 10:51
Isn't it funny people get so uppity about disparity between wargear of the same name when it's Marines, but they're more than happy for Guard to have different rules for their Shotguns?

Lord Solar Plexus
04-11-2008, 10:56
On the topic of being able to go to ground and still shoot, could other armies besides IG do it? It’s basic military doctrine with humans now and probably in the future, but would it apply with aliens?

Space Marines: Could try but are way too big and bulky with their size and armor, that and all the bright colors give them away.
Eldar: Have radically different weapons and army doctrines based on mobility.
Necrons: Seem to have no regard for their “lives”, so why bother, “We’ll be Back”.
Tyranids: Have the whole hive mind thing taking over their better judgment, if they have any that is.
Orks: Are too crazy to care.
Tau: I could see this applying to them fluff wise, but giving it to them rules wise wound be totally broken. That and getting up with those hooves must be a pain.

Yes, it would apply to aliens:

Space Marines (since when did they become aliens instead of basing their actions on human military doctrines anyways?) - can infiltrate unseen in that colourful armour, have higher Ini and CAN go to ground. Colourful armour is no reason not to shoot back when prone.

Eldar: Are a dying race. Why would they not employ such a simple tactic to die a little later?

Necrons: Who's that again?

Tyranids: The Hive Mind would surely command them to shoot whenever they can, not?

Orks: Care in fact a lot and will shoot from whatever position at whatever degree even without a target. The more dakka the better.

royalpain88
04-11-2008, 10:57
EGAZ! DOES ANYBODY LISTEN TO ME???? The 3-squad russ maybe a one time choice meaning YOU CAN SELECT THIS OPTION ONLY ONCE PER ARMY!!! That way, you can throw in some more Heavy Support Choices like 2 Basilisks. As for shot guns, I believe they need their Ap value increased to a 5 or 6. The Assault 2 Lasguns should be an upgrade at 5 pts a model. As for rough riders, I have heard nothing. With the way my brother has his set up, they're fine as they are. With the doctrines seemingly to stick around, those with rough riders, GIVE THEM CARAPACE!

esk34
04-11-2008, 11:05
As I'm trying to bring together all the various rumors in my head regarding what's been posted about IG, if they all turn out to be true we'd be seeing Leman Russ squadrons which can fire all their weapons along with 4pt guardsmen and presumably better stormtroopers, new LR variants, etc.


Assuming all this is true, IG start to look rather ridiculously gross. While 9 LR tanks would be almost all an armies points, for a 2000pt game it wouldn't be out of the ordinary to be able to fit 6 Leman Russ tanks putting out all sorts of nasty pain, 3 hellhounds, and 100 infantry with various weapons?

As much as I want IG to be competitive again, and as much as I think the LR needs a boost, I just can't see all of these being true. The idea of 9 medium/heavy tanks with blast/template weapons in addition to heavy bolters and/or lascannon, plus dozens of infantry with all sort of nasty guns just sounds too brutal. I could see it if LR's weren't allowable as Squadrons, but dropping two pie-plates, two lascannons and four heavy bolters onto something, and doing that three times a turn, is too much for me to reasonably see, although anti-tank CC units would likely put an end to them quickly, its just too much firepower to be believable right now.


It may sound overpowered but from my experince with tanks it wouldn't be.

If LRBT's can fire everything most likley points cost for sponsons will go up. (As it is I dont run them at the moment as they are a waste of points.) This move as a proper main battle tank and fire everything would make the IG a little bit special.

Besides even the best result from a penetrating hit or glancing will result in the tank not being ble to shoot anything next turn. So this rule will be defuct a heck of alot of the time.

I think this rule would make LRBT's worthwhile taking as they will be a good distraction so my infantry can do what they have to do now. At the moment most oponents pretty much ignore my russes and kill the soft sqashy gaurdsmen first. At least if the Russ is more killy they may bother shooting it first, buying me a couple of turns for the soft bits.

I don't think to many people would run more than 4 russes in a list,(most of the time anyway) and although it sounds nasty, it probably wont be that bad. If this rule is true I will probably go with 2 LRBT's, a demolisher, and basilsk. Plenty of templates, however not overpowering.


Even with all these new rumors, combined with some of the others, I don't see guard being cheesy. Well not compared to the other more competive lists anyway.

Lord Solar Plexus
04-11-2008, 11:09
EGAZ! DOES ANYBODY LISTEN TO ME????


Not when you're shouting.



The 3-squad russ maybe a one time choice meaning YOU CAN SELECT THIS OPTION ONLY ONCE PER ARMY!!!


Look, we were discussing lasguns and shotguns and hellguns all day long. Yes, squadrons may become a one time choice, or they might not, or I might win the lottery.

We will know when the codex hits the shelves, so why bother with whether one Anonymous' speculations?



The Assault 2 Lasguns should be an upgrade at 5 pts a model.

It is often helpful to keep to a very simple procedure: Think, then write. (Saying this is the politest way imaginable.)

5 points for making it assault on (rumoured) 4-5 point models? Are you serious?



Besides even the best result from a penetrating hit or glancing will result in the tank not being ble to shoot anything next turn. So this rule will be defuct a heck of alot of the time.
...
Even with all these new rumors, combined with some of the others, I don't see guard being cheesy. Well not compared to the other more competive lists anyway.

Indeed, all these rumours sound like all they're doing is a bit of restructuring. I would have hoped for something more substantial.

Please note that a 'immobilized' and 'weapon destroyed' result won't keep a Russ from shooting.

Badger[Fr]
04-11-2008, 12:41
Actually, there is a significant detail I forgot to mention. The new Leman Russ rules were described as "super-heavy like". It would imply that Leman Russes could, indeed, fire all their weapons while moving, as I wrote in an earlier post, but could also mean that they would not be able to move more than 6 inches per turn.

Bloodknight
04-11-2008, 12:58
That would be awesome. A lumbering Russ. :)

invinciblebug
04-11-2008, 13:00
Damn. I'm so excited about these news, this got to be the best thing to happened to Imperial guard since plastic cadians! And with platoon drill, more tanks and all, It's going to be awesome!

electricblooz
04-11-2008, 14:14
I lumbering russ would be just about perfect -

regarding the issue of Russ squadrons, I suspect, given everything that has been wirtten in the fluff regarding the organization of IG Regiments that if squadrons of Russes are not limited to 0-1 in the FOC then selecting multiple Russ squadrons will somehow limit the availability of line platoons beyond the point cost. For instance I suspect the ability to have multiple Russ squadrons will be tied to a special charater who will also require that all infantry platoons be mounted in chimeras (a'la the mechanized doctrine).

Vaktathi
04-11-2008, 14:30
Yea, because its not like ST can Infiltrate and Deep Strike at all... :rolleyes: You can't selectively omit important considerations when trying to make a point, it only serves to lessen the point you're trying to make not strengthen it. Either one makes them 11pts, not 10, and you can't take those when you take ST's as Grenadiers. For 11pts I'd much rather have a Sister of Battle or almost 2/3rds of a Chosen CSM.

As Deep Striking units, their firepower comes from the two special weapons, *not* the hellguns, and are best used as 5man suicide squads. As infiltrators, they work best as outflankers, but are really mediocre at best in this capacity.



AP 5 Assault 2 would be the most they should have, they shouldn't be Str 4 they aren't boltguns (in spite of my support of Str 4 shotguns earlier, I'm not really a fan, but since Marine shotguns already are, then for consistency sake Guard shotguns should be as well).

I play Guard, amongst other things, I'm just not in favour of GW doing another broken Codex. Neither am I, but 2shot S3 weapons just don't make ST's hit hard enough to justify their 10pt cost. At 10pts each, on average point for point they are less effective in terms of average wounds dealt compared with Fire Warriors, Dire Avengers, Space Marines, Shoota Boyz (yes really), while being either roughly as survivable or less so for the same points against such units hitting back.

Given a stormbolter equivalent weapon, they then are roughly on par for average equivalent wounds inflicted against the units above for the points cost paid. So either ST's need a drastic cost decrease, or a much buffed hellgun. Given that the Hellgun is a beefed up Lasgun with a massive powerpack for short engagements, I really don't see a problem fluff-wise, and gameplay wise it makes sense if they are to remain 10pts and not get access to a silly number of special weapons.

surprize
04-11-2008, 19:34
LR becoming superheavies sounds a bit fishy to me, especially as this is only the 2nd 5th Ed Codex, if they were going to introduce a whole new rule, by that I mean that we are talking about a type of vehicle class that does not currently exist in the main rules, then I would have thought they would introduce it in the main rule book.

Otherwise they are effectively making the main rulebook out of date just after it has been released.

I have a wild theory that maybe this is chinese whispers and that a move and fire everything russ is actually a variant, not a standard one. This could be in the form of a special character with associated rules, or possibly just a version of the russ with a non-ordnance turret weapon and then heavy stubbers as the hull/sponson weapons. This could fire its main gun (say annihilator - twin lascannon) and still fire its heavy stubbers under the normal rules.

There has been some heavy stubber creep into IG over the past few incarnations, and they feature in IA a lot.

Octavius_Maximus
04-11-2008, 20:15
LR becoming superheavies sounds a bit fishy to me, especially as this is only the 2nd 5th Ed Codex, if they were going to introduce a whole new rule, by that I mean that we are talking about a type of vehicle class that does not currently exist in the main rules, then I would have thought they would introduce it in the main rule book.


Thats not what they said. They said they should use a rule which only superheavies have currently, ie. Lumbering movement.

Ravenheart
04-11-2008, 20:52
Lumbering Leman Russ' sound fine and dandy; and while the LR is one of the hallmarks of the IG, I fear a too great dependance on them.

I'd really like to know if a IG army based around infantry and chimera cassis vehicles will be able to preform as efficent.

explorator
04-11-2008, 21:19
Lumbering Leman Russ' sound fine and dandy; and while the LR is one of the hallmarks of the IG, I fear a too great dependance on them.

I'd really like to know if a IG army based around infantry and chimera cassis vehicles will be able to preform as efficent.

I also like the idea of lumbering Russes, and I think the 3-for-1 heavy slot would be fine if it is once per army. My Russes need better rear armor. Tank riders would be cool.

The Chimera simply must come down in point cost--alot. When it does come down I see heavy Chimera armies being somewhat efficient, but I hope GW really follows through with more artillery (earthshaker platforms :), plenty of options for specialized armies, and rewards/incentives for IG commanders that use a combined-force approach.

MadDoc
04-11-2008, 22:20
Isn't it funny people get so uppity about disparity between wargear of the same name when it's Marines, but they're more than happy for Guard to have different rules for their Shotguns?

If, by some chance, that was a shot at me (and since I'm the only one who actually mentioned shotguns being universally the same, I fail to see how it couldn't have been) then you may want to actually read what I wrote, and I quote (bold added for emphasis):


(in spite of my support of Str 4 shotguns earlier, I'm not really a fan, but since Marine shotguns already are, then for consistency sake Guard shotguns should be as well)

Where in that am I suggesting Guard should have different shotguns? Don't tax yourself, I'll tell you where, nowhere, because I wasn't even suggesting anything of the sort.


uhh...normal guardsmen can do that too.

Yes, because basic Guard already come with Carapace armour and hellguns too... oh wait... :rolleyes:


Infiltrate costs the same and Deep strike is *Cheaper*

Yea, because 2 points less expensive per model (which they will be if you're actually going to make the squads remotely comparable by adding Carapace armour) for a unit with Infiltrate is such a huge difference. Thats without even figuring in the stats difference (ST are the same cost as Veterans (same stats) upgraded with Carapace but have hellguns. Veterans come with Infiltrate but it still only equates to a 1 point difference, which the hellguns would account for anyway).

As for the Deep Strike doctrine, wow you sure got me there... although lower stat, hellgun-less, Carapace-less (they cost 3 points less per model than ST with DS if they're upgraded to wear Carapace) units are hardly as good as ST. But hey, don't let a little thing like actually taking all the facts into account, distract from pushing the agenda.


Sooo...your saying noone should use Stormtroopers?

When did I say that? Just because I don't think hellguns should be Rending, borderline better than a bolter, weapons (or that ST should have uber stats, because according to you they're better trained than Marines, before you argue, you said that in your Guard codex thread) in no way suggests that I think (or said) that noone should use ST.


...ok, so you want guard to be underpowered for ANOTHER iteration?

In your opinion... If you had your way hellguns would be Rng 24" Str 4 AP 4 Assault 2, Rending and ST would be BS 5.

I wouldn't play (or field) that, it just plain doesn't fit relative to other armies/units within the background. I also wouldn't retcon the background to accomodate broken rules, but perhaps that just me.

Guard are weaker on an idividual basis than Space Msrines or Orks? Heaven forefend, they should actually be representative of the background. Your arguments smack alittle of "background be damned, I want my army to be the bestest ever!".


Jeez. Thats why you play the 'other things.'

Or perhaps I play the other things because I like their background too. Or do I play Feral Orks and Kroot Mercs because they're such hardcore armies? :rolleyes: Don't presume to tell me what my motives are, its just annoying, and could quite possibly lead to an argument (which for your sake I'm going to assume was not the intention).

The Dude
05-11-2008, 00:43
If, by some chance, that was a shot at me (and since I'm the only one who actually mentioned shotguns being universally the same, I fail to see how it couldn't have been) then you may want to actually read what I wrote, and I quote (bold added for emphasis):

Where in that am I suggesting Guard should have different shotguns? Don't tax yourself, I'll tell you where, nowhere, because I wasn't even suggesting anything of the sort.

Doc, write yourself a script for some chill pills ;). I was in no way refering to your comments, and find it strange that you assume so. There were plenty of other posts arguing for radically DIFFERENT rules for IG shotties, so why you assume I was referring to you is a complete mystery to me.

Please check the 'tude champ, it does you no favours :)

Devil Tree
05-11-2008, 00:59
I think Storm Troopers could warrant better equipment than the average guardsmen. Even if it reaches the equivalent of Space Marine gear, you have to realize ST’s are the best of the best in the IG and thus given the best stuff. I’m not arguing about giving them bolters, rending or power armor just something better than a flashlight. Something like strength 4 or assault 2 isn't much to ask. At 10 points each they should be something better than a plasma delivery system, because right now hellguns are crap.

MadDoc
05-11-2008, 01:27
Doc, write yourself a script for some chill pills ;). I was in no way refering to your comments, and find it strange that you assume so. There were plenty of other posts arguing for radically DIFFERENT rules for IG shotties, so why you assume I was referring to you is a complete mystery to me.

Possibly due to your post being so soon after mine (which happened to be the only post within a page or so that actually mentioned shotguns and consistent rules), and the number of (indirect) digs you took at myself and others in the DA FAQ thread.

Not to mention, that the tone of your post seemed to suggest that the others suggesting the vastly different rules for shotguns were the same people supporting parity of common equipment between lists. While this may be true in some cases, I somewhat doubt it to be the case in the majority of them.

Whatever the case, mea culpa, I misread the tone of your post and for that I'm sorry.


Please check the 'tude champ, it does you no favours :)

Being needlessly patronising doesn't do anybody any favours either. :D

Octavius_Maximus
05-11-2008, 04:01
Yes, because basic Guard already come with Carapace armour and hellguns too... oh wait...

They can get carapace and Hellguns, as they are at the moment, are never better than lasguns. Just the same.



Yea, because 2 points less expensive per model (which they will be if you're actually going to make the squads remotely comparable by adding Carapace armour) for a unit with Infiltrate is such a huge difference. Thats without even figuring in the stats difference (ST are the same cost as Veterans (same stats) upgraded with Carapace but have hellguns. Veterans come with Infiltrate but it still only equates to a 1 point difference, which the hellguns would account for anyway).


Hellguns arnt worth +1 point. Also, Veterans are better since they have better options.



As for the Deep Strike doctrine, wow you sure got me there... although lower stat, hellgun-less, Carapace-less (they cost 3 points less per model than ST with DS if they're upgraded to wear Carapace) units are hardly as good as ST. But hey, don't let a little thing like actually taking all the facts into account, distract from pushing the agenda.


um, why dont you talk like an adult?

Hellguns dont matter, Carapace can be bought. But theres no point since the upgrades are too expensive. Stormtroopers are ***** because they pay so much for upgrades which arent worth that.



When did I say that? Just because I don't think hellguns should be Rending, borderline better than a bolter, weapons (or that ST should have uber stats, because according to you they're better trained than Marines, before you argue, you said that in your Guard codex thread) in no way suggests that I think (or said) that noone should use ST.


I didnt say that, i said Stormies are better soldiers than marines.

What you are implying is that stormies should basically stay as they are, which means noone will take them.



In your opinion... If you had your way hellguns would be Rng 24" Str 4 AP 4 Assault 2, Rending and ST would be BS 5.

Actually no, i would make them Range 24" S3 Ap5 Assault 2 rending and Stormies would be BS4. I worked it out on an Imperial Guard forum.



I wouldn't play (or field) that, it just plain doesn't fit relative to other armies/units within the background. I also wouldn't retcon the background to accomodate broken rules, but perhaps that just me.

so you wont field a unit which is fluffy?

Stormtroopers are supposed to be the best. They need power, i gave it to them.



Guard are weaker on an idividual basis than Space Msrines or Orks? Heaven forefend, they should actually be representative of the background. Your arguments smack alittle of "background be damned, I want my army to be the bestest ever!".

Guard are stronger than Space Msrines, of course. But they are weaker than space marines, of course. Where did i say the opposite?

What, in fact, are you talking about?!

The Dude
05-11-2008, 04:35
Being needlessly patronising doesn't do anybody any favours either. :D

Wasn't trying to be patronising (just an innate skill I guess :p), but please accept my apologies for any offence ;)

Firaxin
05-11-2008, 04:36
Hellguns: 18" assault 2 Str 5 AP-- ? Replace krak grenades with meltabombs, so they can actually storm bunkers.

And then keep them at 10pts. Hell, I wouldn't even mind a raise to 12pts.

MadDoc
05-11-2008, 05:27
The Russ Squadrons (if true) sound interesting, and rather nasty. Lumbering Russes, yikes! That much firepower coming across the table at you, even at a crawl, is going to be nasty.

Mirumoto
05-11-2008, 05:28
Having the hellgun 24" assault 2 s3 ap5 is IMO the change it needs, it equates it to an Eldar lasblaster which is supposed to be a superior laser weapon (at least according to fluff), and as for some people suggesting that ST are better soldiers than marines, how's then that marines don't recruit from the same stock as STs? Kind of doubt I have...

Leaving them as they are but with somewhat better hellguns, including all kind of grenades to them (except meltabombs, wich could be an upgrade) and maybe giving them ld9 to represent their eliteness is IMO more than enough. They can be elite, but remember they're the elite in the army of regular joes...

Hope my english is quite enough for you lads, cheers!

MadDoc
05-11-2008, 05:45
Having the hellgun 24" assault 2 s3 ap5 is IMO the change it needs, it equates it to an Eldar lasblaster which is supposed to be a superior laser weapon (at least according to fluff),

That would be fine and not too unbalancing.


and as for some people suggesting that ST are better soldiers than marines, how's then that marines don't recruit from the same stock as STs? Kind of doubt I have...

You're right to doubt the validity of that remark, its a load of bull. :angel:


Leaving them as they are but with somewhat better hellguns, including all kind of grenades to them (except meltabombs, wich could be an upgrade) and maybe giving them ld9 to represent their eliteness is IMO more than enough. They can be elite, but remember they're the elite in the army of regular joes...

I agree with everything you've said there, although I'm not too sure on the Leadership 9 thing. 8 is the standard stat for the Leadership of IG Veterans, I think 9 should be kept for Officers.


Hope my english is quite enough for you lads, cheers!

Your English is good. So no problems there.

Firaxin
05-11-2008, 07:05
Having the hellgun 24" assault 2 s3 ap5 is IMO the change it needs, it equates it to an Eldar lasblaster which is supposed to be a superior laser weapon (at least according to fluff)

It's better than the lasgun, according to fluff. I don't think it's ever specified as being better than a hellgun.

In any case, similar to a lasgun's 60 shot, rechargeable by sunlight ammunition, the lasblaster is its own self contained unit. The hellgun draws energy from a massive pack on the soldiers back, a pack just slightly smaller than the size of the charge pack lascannons and multi-lasers draw their power from. If the hellgun requires all that power to equate to a lasblaster, than without that backpack hellguns must be worse than regular lasguns.

Personally I believe it to be similar to plasma weapons -- the eldar's version is weaker but safer; finesse in exchange for stopping power. There's no reason for the hellgun not to be better than the lasblaster in this way. If the three weapons are using roughly the same power packs, then it stands to reason that the weaker versions are weaker because they're putting more shots out at a time.

Rather than suggest a Str 3 assault 6 hellgun, I figured stormtroopers probably dial up the power, and compromised with str 5 assault 2 (and reduced range).

See, I'm not just a nutter. I have a semi-valid reason. :angel:

CommissarTanith
05-11-2008, 07:15
I REALLY hate to ask this, but does anyone know of any kind of expected release date for the IG codex? Because I have heard everything from this Christmas to 2 years from now, so I'm hella confused!

Now, for the sake of hiding my question in the middle of important post, let me say a few things that might be useful.

I think that Assault 2 Lasguns would be nice, but one thing I thought would be good too, would be to give it an AP, even if it's 6. I think that this would work because fluff versions of lasguns always (to me anyways) seem to be able to actually PENETRATE armor. Unlike the game versions. And, especially now that GW seems to be moving towards Fluff based Codexes, it seems like it would make more sense.

Of course, this was before I read this thread, so I guess an Assault 2 lasgun would represent the seemingly better kill power of lasguns better than my idea...

Vaktathi
05-11-2008, 07:19
I REALLY hate to ask this, but does anyone know of any kind of expected release date for the IG codex? Because I have heard everything from this Christmas to 2 years from now, so I'm hella confused!

supposedly April-ish.

The Dude
05-11-2008, 08:21
It's better than the lasgun, according to fluff. I don't think it's ever specified as being better than a hellgun.

In any case, similar to a lasgun's 60 shot, rechargeable by sunlight ammunition, the lasblaster is its own self contained unit. The hellgun draws energy from a massive pack on the soldiers back, a pack just slightly smaller than the size of the charge pack lascannons and multi-lasers draw their power from. If the hellgun requires all that power to equate to a lasblaster, than without that backpack hellguns must be worse than regular lasguns.

And the disparity between power pack size could have nothing to do with advanced Xenos technology or anything, could it? ;)

Grenader
05-11-2008, 08:23
Of course not, we all know the bigger it is the better :p.

Bestiaparda
05-11-2008, 08:25
Forget about hellguns been Assault. Due to the maximmum charge the hellgun has, the new hellgun will be S3 AP3.

junglesnake
05-11-2008, 08:36
Hellgun theory people have posted is good and so far I like it. However one for the brain storming pot would be to have it as assault 1 - targeters.

Targeters - Targeters allow the storm troopers to re-roll rolls to hit, the second roll must be accepted.

I only say it like this because so far as I am aware fluff wise Hellguns have never been capable of a better rate of fire just a more consistant and more powerful shot. If people remember the originals - hot shot lasguns - and the power packs they came with it may reflect the technology a little better! So effectively making them twin linked which could be more balanced than giving them an 18" range.

T_55
05-11-2008, 09:09
And i was having such fun pre-measuring as well.....

That would be an interesting alternative i must admit.

Bunnahabhain
05-11-2008, 09:37
18" S3, Assualt 3, AP- or 6.

If something can die to lasguns, it will die quicker to Hellguns, as there are many more, more accurate shots coming that way.

The Hobo Hunter
05-11-2008, 09:48
Unless I've missed an important piece of fluff somewhere, what makes hellguns fire faster than lasguns? Or at least fire fast enough to warrant being changed from rapid fire? AFAIK, they are just more 'beefy' lasguns, hence the upped stats they have now. This seems to just stem from a hard-on for stormtroopers than any logical reason.

If you want assault weapons on stormtroopers (as you probably have every right to - they're meant to be involved in storming things right?), then maybe they could get a shotgun option, probably with manstoppers. You'd trade range for damage and potential mobility, and everyone's happy.

Interestingly enough, wasn't there a picture floating around a while ago of a kasrkin-looking chap with a shotgun?

Vaktathi
05-11-2008, 10:07
18" S3, Assualt 3, AP- or 6.

If something can die to lasguns, it will die quicker to Hellguns, as there are many more, more accurate shots coming that way.

Personally, that's the version I prefer, 3 shots, S3. It's equivalent to a 2 shot S4 weapon in terms of inflicted wounds against normal T3/4 guys, but still keeps it in sort of the "lasgun" category at the same time.



Unless I've missed an important piece of fluff somewhere, what makes hellguns fire faster than lasguns? Or at least fire fast enough to warrant being changed from rapid fire? AFAIK, they are just more 'beefy' lasguns, hence the upped stats they have now. This seems to just stem from a hard-on for stormtroopers than any logical reason.


If you want assault weapons on stormtroopers (as you probably have every right to - they're meant to be involved in storming things right?), then maybe they could get a shotgun option, probably with manstoppers. You'd trade range for damage and potential mobility, and everyone's happy.

Interestingly enough, wasn't there a picture floating around a while ago of a kasrkin-looking chap with a shotgun? A few big things. Stormtroopers are a very "move and fire" type unit, unlike most other IG units that are best when stationary to fire a heavy weapon. ST's need to be much more mobile. Second, S3 Rapid Fire doesn't put out enough wounds to justify their 10pt cost, they'd need to be roughly 6-7pts as is (with basic Guardsmen being 4). Third, the nature of Rapid Fire weapons greatly detracts from the "mobile" element of Stormtroopers, as when they are where they need to be to do the most damage, they are also where they are least survivable and least likely to be able to get in to do their damage. ST's can't take CC at all, and they don't exactly take rapid fire bolter (or equivalent) return fire well either, at least not for what they cost. One solid rapid fire round from ST's isn't exactly all that amazingly effective currently, they need some range so that they can keep enemy rapid fire weapons from being at their peak efficiency, as well as mitigate some of the (very likely) potential of their target simply charging them and overruning them in one CC round after absorbing a full round of hellgun light spam. And Yes there was a pic of a Kasrkin type guy with a shotgun. However, S4 shotguns, while putting out the right damage amount, are simply far too short ranged, they really are better on a unit thats capable of hurting something in CC after dumping shotguns into it, which ST's are not. As is, Shotguns, even at S4, really don't have much of a place in an IG army except on Ogryns, who already have (much better) Ripper Guns.

T_55
05-11-2008, 10:44
Well personally i quite like Junglesnakes suggestion with the targeters, re-rolls to hit is very fancy. Just think of that in combination with Vaktathi's str 3 assault 3 hellgun and i reckon thats a pretty solid baseline.

Trogdor
05-11-2008, 11:18
Apologies if this has been suggested already, but might the 3 Leman Russ as a heavy support option be a fixed, 0-1 HS choice? In other words, you may take 3 Leman Russes as one heavy support slot, leaving two slots more to be filled, but they are the only Lem's that you get to take?
inb4 slowpoke.jpeg

Orcboy_Phil
05-11-2008, 12:43
Persoanlly I think Shotguns should stay as S3 as whilst I can easily see marines "borrowing" Manstopper rounds from the Arbities I really can't see Guardsmen doing the same at least not on the sort of scale you would expect in a guard army. However I would also like to see the shotgun become more common place in Guard armies with platoons allowed to take them instead of Lasguns.

As for Hellguns i think these weapons deserve to become multi purpose weapons like the Sternguard bolter. Currently I'm thinking a Sniper Rifle style setting for long range firefights and a shorter Assault type firemode at S4. Because unlike one of the above posters the Hellgun IS as powerful as bolter at least according to 2nd Ed where they both shared the same profile.

Draconian77
05-11-2008, 13:00
My group is thinking the following changes are needed from a competitive standpoint.

-Cheaper Chimeras(By about 30pts)
-Cheaper or better ST's
-Better Ogryns(T5)
- Minor tweaks to the other units.

On the stormtrooper thing.
They should definately not have rending. Ranged, multi-shot, accurate rending weapons would be quite broken, taking down a Wraithlord with Hellguns just wouldn't feel right.
Rng 18" S3 Assault3 Ap- (already suggested)
Rng18" S4 Assault2 Ap- (or something strange like:
Rng 24-30" S4 Assault 1 Ap4
I definately think that they should be assault weapons.

Shotguns. Keep them as they are now and allow them to be upgraded to Manstopper rounds at 2pts a model? Not sure.

I like the rumours about the Russ.

x-esiv-4c
05-11-2008, 13:27
I'd half expect taking a high ranking officer would allow you do lay down an artillery barrage similar to the SM:Chaptermaster orbital strike.

Any word on sanctioned psykers? Would be nice if they were worth taking this time 'round.

invinciblebug
05-11-2008, 13:47
I'm hoping for Rng18" S4 Assault2 Ap- hellguns, that seems like the sensible thing. It makes them mobile, and forces them to move forward, while still not making it as powerfull as a bolter.

Shotguns really should get better at short range, They could be something like: Rng: 12'' Str:4 assault:1 AP:- and when they are within 6'' the str is upped to 5.

RedSarge
05-11-2008, 14:20
I blame DoW for the Assault 3 Hellguns, it is ridiculous to make it Assault 3.

The Hellgun was, and is, just a more powerful Lasgun....BUT


Guardsmen have fire discipline that prevents them from emptying the entire lasgun clip into a target, thus rapid fire. But for the Storm Troopers who have a power pack, they can fire on full-auto for much longer and are probably permitted to doing so.

That's my 2 cents. :evilgrin:

totgeboren
05-11-2008, 14:26
I don't understand why people want IG shotguns to be S4?
Ogre Ripper guns, frikkin huge automatic shotguns are S4. Bolters, i.e. rocket-propelled grenades are strength 4, heavy machine-guns are S4.

People want a standard little shotgun (generally used for hunting small animals) to have S4?

(I know SM got S4, but then again, they are supposed to get the best equipment the Imperium has to offer, whilst the IG are supposed to get the cheapest but most reliable stuff instead.)

The only thing I would want to see done to the shotgun is change it to "Shotgun/Sub-las". I want them to introduce a sub-machine lasgun, with the same profile as the shotgun.

Shotguns might be kinda kewl, but they don't really fit with the "huge army"-feel of the IG.

The weapon-profile on the other hand fits very well with a compact weapon like a sub-machine-gun used for close-combat fighting in trenches and buildings. My veterans got converted "sub-lasguns", which count as shotguns. They work really well, and fluffy, when I use em to clear out buildings and stuff that my regular Joe's just cant handle, since they don't have the right gear for that.

Hellguns would be better by a huge amount if they just made them assault 2. The stormtroopers would kill 2x as many enemies at range just with that. If that isn't enough, S4 would make em hit harder than marines at range (over 12"), whilst still allowing them to move and assault. I dunno if S4 is pushing it. Assault 2 would be quite a big boost, mathematically speaking.

Kendo
05-11-2008, 14:34
I'm a little sorry to see that valks are going to cost that much. I don't think I'll kitting out the wholw for with them even if I could. I still hope they are a command transport option.

Wolf Scout Ewan
05-11-2008, 15:26
Take a look in the update for IA:2 interesting that the chimera is an armoured firebase?

TheOneWithNoName
05-11-2008, 16:18
Take a look in the update for IA:2 interesting that the chimera is an armoured firebase?

Not only that, but it cost 55 points base already equipped with a multi-laser, heavy bolter, smoke launcher, and a searchlight.

Lord Cook
05-11-2008, 16:24
I blame DoW for the Assault 3 Hellguns, it is ridiculous to make it Assault 3.

Not if it's still only S3 with mediocre AP, if any at all.


I want them to introduce a sub-machine lasgun, with the same profile as the shotgun.

You're just talking about counts as. That's already in place.


Take a look in the update for IA:2 interesting that the chimera is an armoured firebase?

Excellent find!

Bestiaparda
05-11-2008, 16:53
Believe me, hellguns will be S3 AP3, there will be option for a massive barrage falling from the skies and sanctioned psykers are in the codex.

Orcboy_Phil
05-11-2008, 17:03
Believe me, hellguns will be S3 AP3, there will be option for a massive barrage falling from the skies and sanctioned psykers are in the codex.

I hope you being sarcastic here. Whilst I can see sanctioned psykers remaining and even a prilemiarly barrage I can't see AP3 hellguns. They would be marine killers and a whole squad with that much firepower would just be silly in the Guard army. As I said before a sniper rifle firing mode would be a far better option for them Hvy 1 wounding on 4's with rending as well as an assualt 2 18" Str 4 mode would suit them perfectaly and give them the tactical flexiability they need.

Firaxin
05-11-2008, 18:17
You will note that chimera didn't have the 6 lasguns on its profile. Perhaps armored firebase allows all (or a certain number of) the troops inside to fire out as if the vehicle was stationary? Coupled with the heavy/special weapons of the squad inside, that's pretty sweet.

Bloodknight
05-11-2008, 18:25
Yeah. Neither of its two special rules are in the IAV2, so I guess this is a glimpse at the new IG codex.

Draconian77
05-11-2008, 18:33
Ap3 Hellguns you say? Isn't that a little too good? I just don't see it happening but if it did happen it would certainly make the guard more competitive...

Vaktathi
05-11-2008, 19:30
Yeah. Neither of its two special rules are in the IAV2, so I guess this is a glimpse at the new IG codex.

It's a good start, however the lack of AV11 side armor still should hopefully get rectified.

I'm really wondering what exactly they mean by "mobile firebase" and "mobile command vehicle" mean, it would have been nice if they had indicated that, but it doesn't surprise me given that FW generally just seems to hit "CTRL-C, CTRL-V".

either, way, good start though.




As for AP3 hellguns, I think that's a bit overboard, they just need something that gives 2shot S4 equivalent firepower at over 12" (18-24" range). I'd much rather have greater average wound ability than AP3, especially against armies like Orks, which have become far more common.

electricblooz
05-11-2008, 19:54
After noticing the lack of the built-in lasgun in the profile, I think the Armored Firebase rule are probably, as someone said below, a rule allowing firepoints.

I would guess the the Mobile Command rule allows embarked Officers to use their leadership rule from the hulll of the vehicle. I'm not sure what survivability that would add to the Csquad when you can simply hide your officer and squad behind terrain and give them a mortar so they have something to do, but I suppose it offers mech IG some options.

Xenobane
05-11-2008, 20:59
Ap3 Hellguns you say? Isn't that a little too good? I just don't see it happening but if it did happen it would certainly make the guard more competitive...

Assault 3 Hellguns. Who's talking about AP3 Hellguns? That would be absurd.

On the Chimera rulds, it's great to see such a substantial points drop - they look genuinely worthwhile at 55 all-in. Shame to see no increase to the side armour though...:(

Lord Cook
05-11-2008, 21:22
It's a good start, however the lack of AV11 side armor still should hopefully get rectified.

I really can't see these rules changing now. Why would they? I know GW and FW don't exactly have the best track record for consistency, but these new rules have clearly come from somewhere, and Cruddace and Co. is the obvious explanation. We're not getting an improvement in side armour. Even so, this new chimera is still excellent value IMO, and it even has more turret options to boot. How long have we been asking for autocannons now?


Assault 3 Hellguns. Who's talking about AP3 Hellguns? That would be absurd.

Reading all the previous posts usually helps ;).


Believe me, hellguns will be S3 AP3

The Dude
05-11-2008, 21:39
Ap3 Hellguns you say? Isn't that a little too good? I just don't see it happening but if it did happen it would certainly make the guard more competitive...

I could see AP3 if and ONLY if it also had Gets Hot! It could concievably be an alternate fire mode, but I don't see it being the standard profile.

Vaktathi
05-11-2008, 23:30
I really can't see these rules changing now. Why would they? I know GW and FW don't exactly have the best track record for consistency, but these new rules have clearly come from somewhere, and Cruddace and Co. is the obvious explanation. We're not getting an improvement in side armour. Even so, this new chimera is still excellent value IMO, and it even has more turret options to boot. How long have we been asking for autocannons now? While I realize its unlikely to change, I can hope can't I?:cries:

I do have a creeping suspicion however that, just to maintain GW's standard "why did you do that" ratio, that Autocannon's and such may remain IA options instead of codex options, however I dearly hope I am wrong.

Ben Dejo
06-11-2008, 02:05
Well personally i quite like Junglesnakes suggestion with the targeters, re-rolls to hit is very fancy. Just think of that in combination with Vaktathi's str 3 assault 3 hellgun and i reckon thats a pretty solid baseline.

Oh boy, it's a twin linked Lasgun, and it only improves the to-kill percentage by 7% against MEQ.

I'm sorry, I just don't think it's that sexy. Though it does outshoot a bolter 12-24. Heck st3 assault 3 is effective as a storm bolter at the same BS against MEQ. twin linking makes it better than the storm bolter, and that will never happen with the Imperium.

T_55
06-11-2008, 03:43
Why so serious? :p

Obviously what i was inferring was that the targeters confer the ability to re-roll onto any weapon their using. As there are people against the idea of the hellgun going up to str 4, i thought i was a fair compromise. Arm them with plasma guns, 3 will hit with a 66% chance of getting the 4th so you'll kill 3 or 4 MEQs as well. This makes them reliable in certain roles which you may use them in. You have another suggestion perhaps?

However there is no need to address to people in that sense, i am well aware of the capabilities of a lasgun, Ben Dejo.

Kriegschmidt
06-11-2008, 09:37
I don't have a problem with hellguns being S4 AP5. They should hit pretty hard. After all, stormtroopers are likely to die quickly after they engage the enemy (being soft, squishy things!) so they deserve to kick a few nuts before they do.

MrBigMr
06-11-2008, 09:45
I say make hellguns Rapid Fire S4 AP-. This would be pretty much the same as an autogun with executioner rounds (or was it manstopper rounds, can't remember?), or a shotgun with executioner rounds. It would also allow people to field their stormtroopers with autoguns, which you seen done in some fluff and artwork, but never in the game really. It would also make them better vs. MEQ etc. as S3 AP5 is as good as an S3 AP- lasgun versus anything outside of the GEQ range, which is like over half of the armies in the game.

Octavius_Maximus
06-11-2008, 10:26
Looking at the Chimera, some things are evident:

1. The points drop to 55 which includes Searchlights, smoke launchers, Heavy Bolter and Multilaser is incredible.
2. The Weapons upgrades are priced well, with the possible exception of the twin bolter.
3. The normal Upgrades look strange, especially Camo Netting for +20 points!!! Im thinking Perhaps it is +1 cover save.

The most important thing i saw was that Valkyries have dropped to 110 points from 140 in IA Apoc.

shabbadoo
06-11-2008, 10:53
If the IA2 update is anything to go by, IG air and ground cavalry is gonna kick serious butt. Chimeras are nasty as they are now, but with this points reduction I expect to see a lot more of them fielded. I hope the extra turret options make it into the codex(and into the revamped model kit). Having just a little variety is a good thing when you only have two vehicle chassis.

x-esiv-4c
06-11-2008, 11:02
Too many SM players would squeal "Cheese!" if hellguns were ap3.

Octavius_Maximus
06-11-2008, 11:55
Too many SM players would squeal "Cheese!" if hellguns were ap3.

Why? We dont complain that their bolters are AP5

We may get 1 squad which wounds on 5's which ignores their armour.

Oh noe's!

While they get multiple squads which ignore our armour, and some which even ignore our cover.

To complaining space marine players:

"Deal with it!"

nagash66
06-11-2008, 12:12
I see no reason for the hellgun to be ap3 in game or fluff wise, 55 point chimeras sound sweet tho

General Maximus
06-11-2008, 15:46
I keep my fingers crossed reading all this and hope that the new Guard Codex comes soon. We will be the Emperor's finest then.

Bunnahabhain
06-11-2008, 16:40
Nope, not the Emperors finest, but rather the Emperors most numerous.

This is the first solid hint of a Guard codex without pernicious over-pricing. That would be a nice change.

Badger[Fr]
06-11-2008, 16:42
Chimeras are nasty as they are now, but with this points reduction I expect to see a lot more of them fielded.
They still have their crappy Av 10 side armour. They are much cheaper than they used to be, granted, but they are still far from being impressive, considering how easy it is to shoot their huge flanks.

Tynesh
06-11-2008, 16:58
Believe me, hellguns will be S3 AP3

I hope you being sarcastic here
I've heard this too. It represents the ST's training with their weapons. Basically they are going for headshots!

Draconian77
06-11-2008, 18:46
You know I'm really hoping this change happens for a few reasons:

A): I think too many weapons are Ap2-1, AP3 weapons seem to have been skipped which is odd...

B): It means you could field an IG infantry force with something to bust GEQ that isn't expensive and static.

C): I only play Tyranids so it makes absolutely no difference to me! Lets see its either 2+ or 6+... I'll be fine. This just leads on to a point that even if it seems absurd there are a lot of armies out there that it really wouldn't affect.

I hope my friend can take out his old guard army again, he stopped playing with it because the games were very one sided, now we can have that iconic matchup again, Guard vs Nids, nothing looks better!

Nym
06-11-2008, 19:13
I highly doubt Hellguns will become AP3 weapons, but I would sell my soul to Slaneesh to see the facial expression of marine players if that was to happen...

MrBigMr
06-11-2008, 19:18
I've heard this too. It represents the ST's training with their weapons. Basically they are going for headshots!
I would call BS on the whole deal if GW hadn't proven to me their insanity when it comes to rules development. Since when have Stormtroopers been such elite that they suddenly snap headshots like there's no tomorrow? Why aren't Marine bolters AP1 Rending?

I think it's a total overkill. I wouldn't want it.

Commissar Masyk
06-11-2008, 19:56
I think if hellguns were able to fire at AP3 they'd work like the AP3 sternguard shot - ie, "Gets Hot!" would be included, meaning they'd just be S3 plasma guns essentially.

To the people who believe that an increased number of shots from the weapon is "unfluffy" on the basis that hellguns are merely a more powerful lasgun and not a faster firing one, remember this: the rate of fire put out by a weapon is highly dependant on the training of the man (or woman!) behind it and not necessarily the weapon alone. A well-trained soldier will put out many more 'aimed' shots than someone with inferior training.

The lasgun seems to be more or less the 40k version of semi-automatic rifles in our time, the only difference being due to firing a beam of energy rather than a solid slug their ammo capacity is obviously much higher than modern conventional weapons. From everything I've read they seem more or less to be a futuristic M1 Garande.

Under the assumption that the lasgun is a semi-automatic rifle, then the training of the soldier using it is largely the deciding factor in the rate of fire. Your run-of-the-mill Imperial Guardsman is drilled in firing and according to the codex can sustain a very high rate of fire with his lasgun - using the Rapid Fire rules. Remember that fully-automatic weapons like the Bolter are also Rapid Fire. In other words, that Guardsman is sustaining one hell of a rate of fire to keep up with a fully automatic weapon.

It makes sense for Marines to be limited in their rate of fire since they aren't carrying a full pack of bolter rounds and would be firing to conserve ammo (and also with all the genetic implants and high-tech gadgetry they have, they don't need to fire as many bullets to hit people). But since Stormtroopers have that giant powerpack, and lasweapons in general have a much, much higher ammo capacity, they wouldn't necessarily be operating under the same ammo-conserving mindset.

It only stands to sense that a Stormtrooper, trained and tried to much more rigorous standards than the average Imperial Guardsman, would more than likely be able to sustain a much higher rate of fire than said average Joe Cadian. It's not that his gun fires any faster, it's that his reflexes and training are better, so he fires faster, not his gun.

Of course we all know that in 40k the 'Rule of Cool' reigns supreme and petty things like physics, reality and common sense go straight out the window.

I personally would like to see hellguns become S4 AP5 Assault 3 - to me that would adequately represent the increased power of hellguns combined with Stormtrooper's superior training represented in a higher rate of fire from the soldier himself.

tuebor
06-11-2008, 20:39
If that's the new listing for the Chimera, and if the rumour about Mechanized Platoon squads having 3 special weapons is true I'll be purchasing quite a few more Chimeras.

Gensuke626
06-11-2008, 21:22
2 things.

1. I second Tuebor's sentiment. I might start trying to build a Mech Guard list if the rumors pan out (To be Honest, I've been palying around with the Idea of a Mech Guard list for some time now)

2. I doubt that Hellguns will be AP3. It'd be neat, but the headshots thing doesn't make sense.

Now if it was more like the Eldar Ranger rule and their hellguns became AP3 if you roll a 6 to Hit or something, I can see that...

Bjorn Hellhammer
06-11-2008, 21:38
The idea of an AP3 torch is mostly retarded, at best it may be boltgun standard (2nd ed) and at worst a flashlight with better ap (current). I kinda like the idea of it being S3 AP5 Aslt2 18 inch range. The guardsmen behind the gun are still going to be basic humies, who have managed to survive a little longer than 15 hrs.

I see guard as US troops, mostly useless unless fielded in large amounts. There are special units like marines that are a bit better, but the kit is pretty much standard tat.

Rate of fire: Look at it as effective fire, a guard trooper is going to spray the balls off his lasgun like the hick he is and not hit much. A storm trooper isn't going to be much better, though his gat is a bigger hitter than a regular guardsman. His veterancy has no effect on the amount of firepower, can a 500 year old eldar guardian get a few more shots from his gat? Didn't think so.

This thread has gone a little into the realms of whimsey, think guard as grinding the enemy to dust by the application of human sacrifice, and they get the bare minimum of resources to do the job. Thats why they don't bother with side armour for the chimera, as its purpose is to go forward into the enemy in a wave.

Remember with guard it's not the size of your gun, it's how many you can throw forward to swamp the enemy. Even for elites like Elysians (who are dear to my heart), it's all in the numbers... Please give me lots of tank options!

marv335
06-11-2008, 21:43
I can't see Ap3 happening at all (well maybe with a points hike)
S4 Ap5, raising the Hellgun to the same level as a Boltgun (as the hotshot pack always used to do)

the neckbone
06-11-2008, 22:11
i always thought that the extra BS and leadership represented the stormtroopers training.

BS 4 i think is a good representation of getting off a headshot its nothing to do with the weapon its the fella shooting it.

Promethius
06-11-2008, 22:41
I think that low strength/high ap is a good idea, in much the same way as the multilaser is high strength/low ap. It makes the stormtroopers a good anti-meq unit even without special weapons, and a worthy elites choice. Still can't see it happening though.

Lord Cook
06-11-2008, 22:42
A well-trained soldier will put out many more 'aimed' shots than someone with inferior training.

While I fully agree with your reasoning, I think this is already represented with the storm trooper's ballistic skill 4. The fact that storm troopers have the same BS as marines without any of the genetic improvements shows that they are formidably trained and excellent shots.


It makes sense for Marines to be limited in their rate of fire since they aren't carrying a full pack of bolter rounds and would be firing to conserve ammo... But since Stormtroopers have that giant powerpack, and lasweapons in general have a much, much higher ammo capacity, they wouldn't necessarily be operating under the same ammo-conserving mindset.

I think this [ammo supply] argument is the only justification for giving storm troopers 3 shots as standard. But I think it's a good one nevertheless.


I personally would like to see hellguns become S4 AP5 Assault 3

Little too overwhelming in my view.


I kinda like the idea of it being S3 AP5 Aslt2 18 inch range.

Conversely, too underwhelming.

I really hate the idea of storm troopers just getting a boltgun in all but name. It's so boring and unimaginative. So to differentiate them from our power armoured comrades, let's have more shots at weaker strength. By making the hellgun...

Range 18" S3 Ap5 Assault 3

...you really hit all the right buttons. You've got a high rate of fire to represent the vast ammo supply that storm troopers carry. You've got Ap5 to represent the increased penetrative power of the hellgun itself. And as an assault weapon, you finally represent the fact that storm troopers are supposed to be front line troops, assaulting things. The low strength balances the high RoF, so it isn't overpowered. And it's unique, in that it isn't just a dull carbon copy of existing weapons.


The guardsmen behind the gun are still going to be basic humies, who have managed to survive a little longer than 15 hrs.

Remember that was just one, particularly brutal, war zone. We have nothing to indicate that 15 hours is the life expectancy of your average guardsmen elsewhere.

Mirumoto
06-11-2008, 22:42
AP3 is somewhat doubtful (saying it politely) to happen to hellguns; besides, to those nice men (and I suppose women too) who want to see the hellgun be AP3, remember what happened when the tau got their nice s5 ap3 rad blaster; do you want the same for your ST? I hope not, for i've not seen yet a unit of vespids fielded with those awesome ap3 weapons. Yet, ap3 will be overkill to the other half of the playing spectrum (i.e. non MEQ), so i think it will not happen, and much less as someone proposed s4 ap5 assault3 hellguns (better than a stormbolter, uh?).

By this i do not want to mean offense to anyone, but I sincerely think that is better to speculate more about s and rate of fire than ap, which will surprise me much if is not ap5 when the codex goes to print.

About making the ST more appealing, give 'em grenades, ld8 with stubborn (thanks Mad Doc for reminding me that ld9 is for officers) maybe deepstrike (or at least an option to purchase) and have them stay at 10 pts and voila, an interesting unit, or at least i think so.

Cheers mates.

MrBigMr
06-11-2008, 22:56
I somehow doubt the Imperium to get a superior version of the Eldar lasblaster (24" S3 AP5 Assault 2) no matter how big and bulky the gun. They've always had the better laser technology by far. Their scatter laser and bright lance makes Imperial multi-lasers and lascannons look weak. So at what point does the Imperium get the nerve to make a laser weapon that's superior to an Eldar design. I can live with Assault 3 hellgun if it gets Gets Hot!

And before anyone questions my loyalty, I'm a Guard player to the core, even a real life conscript. But I'm a Guard player in the real world, in the world where Guard sucks. I always thought Guard players were sensible, but this starts to sound like any other "omfg new codex!11124769#¤&"#¤%#%/25245" thread.

cailus
06-11-2008, 23:16
Remember that was just one, particularly brutal, war zone. We have nothing to indicate that 15 hours is the life expectancy of your average guardsmen elsewhere.


It's probably a lot shorter! :p

15 Hours is my favourite IG book cause it shows the absolute brutality of warfare and the absolute non-caring and often inept nature of Imperial bureaucracy and command structure.

I always think that the other IG books are rather poor because they descirbe total GI Joe/Tambo type actions - you know the one's where things such as military intelligence, logistics and morale play no role and it's all about shooting up "da bad guys" who attended the Imperial Stormtrooper School of Marksmanship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormtrooper_effect).

Vaktathi
06-11-2008, 23:17
I somehow doubt the Imperium to get a superior version of the Eldar lasblaster (24" S3 AP5 Assault 2) no matter how big and bulky the gun. They've always had the better laser technology by far. Their scatter laser and bright lance makes Imperial multi-lasers and lascannons look weak. So at what point does the Imperium get the nerve to make a laser weapon that's superior to an Eldar design. I hate this argument. Why does everything Eldar have to be better than everything else bar nothing? A Lasblaster is a small, lightweight weapon carried by jump infantry, a Hellgun is not only a much larger weapon, but that has a massive backpack powerblock and thick power cabling and requires extensive maintenance, carried on troops that aren't expected to see more than a couple hours of combat at a time. Assuming an S3 Assault 3 18" hellgun, The Eldar weapon can hit just has hard and greater range in a much smaller package, but with a slower RoF. What's so bad about that?




I can live with Assault 3 hellgun if it gets Gets Hot! And ensure that Stormtroopers never get taken in an Imperial Guard army. *EVER*

At that point you're talking about a third of the squad pasting itself every time they open fire. Even if they never took fire, you'd have none left by the end of the game.

Even with Assault 3 hellguns, ST's are still going to lose a shooting war with Dire Avengers for the same cost, as well as CC in all likelyhood.





And before anyone questions my loyalty, I'm a Guard player to the core, even a real life conscript. But I'm a Guard player in the real world, in the world where Guard sucks. I always thought Guard players were sensible, but this starts to sound like any other "omfg new codex!11124769#¤&"#¤%#%/25245" thread.Guard don't *suck*, they just aren't, man for man, on par with their contemporaries. Stormtroopers aren't normal guardsmen, comparing upgunned ST's to other armies Elites, and they still *suck* man for man (if you want to call it that), they just don't suck on a point-for-point base anymore.

Commissar Masyk
06-11-2008, 23:23
Range 18" S3 Ap5 Assault 3

You've convinced me... I like it, and I'd use it.

Now if only the guy writing the new IG codex were listening...

Lord Cook
06-11-2008, 23:40
I somehow doubt the Imperium to get a superior version of the Eldar lasblaster (24" S3 AP5 Assault 2) no matter how big and bulky the gun.

They didn't. The hellgun would be inferior because it has a shorter range. But because the storm troopers have the luxury of a huge backpack to power their guns, they can maintain a higher rate of fire as there's no need to stop and reload.


But I'm a Guard player in the real world, in the world where Guard sucks.

No it doesn't. That's just the trashy group mentality you get in a game where every other army is some kind of super-powered killing machine.


I always thought Guard players were sensible

So did I, but then we get suggestions like this:


I can live with Assault 3 hellgun if it gets Gets Hot!

...hence making it the most useless, retarded gun in the entire game. Every time a storm trooper fired he would have a 25% chance of dying. Assault 3 is not in any way overpowered, so long as you keep it S3. Just take a cursory glance at the numbers. A full squad of ten storm troopers firing three S3 shots each would kill about five fire warriors, two marines or one necron. Oh no! :eek:

MrBigMr
06-11-2008, 23:42
I hate this argument. Why does everything Eldar have to be better than everything else bar nothing? A Lasblaster is a small, lightweight weapon carried by jump infantry, a Hellgun is not only a much larger weapon, but that has a massive backpack powerblock and thick power cabling and requires extensive maintenance, carried on troops that aren't expected to see more than a couple hours of combat at a time. Assuming an S3 Assault 3 18" hellgun, The Eldar weapon can hit just has hard and greater range in a much smaller package, but with a slower RoF. What's so bad about that?
Not all hellguns run from backpacks. The previous models had magazines in their guns. Backpack only means they don't have to reload and overload anything (weren't the hotshot packs unreliable or something?) while using it. But the notion of an Assault 3 standard issue weapon even on an "elite" force is a little too much for me. Not many other armies have such. Hell, mostly only heavy weapons are 3 shot.

If the 3 shot function was Heavy 3 next to maybe Assault 2 (like with the Sonic Blaster), I could live with it, but a pure pwnage from the box seems a little over the top. If it was so, who wouldn't take them? It's not like they have much competition. Mostly Ogryns and Ratlings. I wouldn't count Techpriests into it as they're more of a special unit than something to compete with the Stormtroopers.

And why Eldar tech should be better, because it is. Many xenos tech is. Hell, you have S4 digi-weapons fitted into rings. It's just one of those facts of life. Guard is rugged, Marines are poster boys and Eldar have better stuff and skin tight uniforms.


And ensure that Stormtroopers never get taken in an Imperial Guard army. *EVER*
Weigh in my cup = none. Who needs some glory boyz?



But ok, to be absolutely frank for a moment, you wanna know number one reason why I oppose such a thing? Balance. If stormtroopers are made into a unit you can't leave home without, what does that do to armies that don't have them? They have to get them or get looked down with anything from "you should get some STs" all the way to "why don't you have STs, you stupid or something, they're just so good."

You have any idea how much I love all the crap I get for having a mono-god WHFB daemon army with a DP, which is like now the worse combo to have in terms of gameplay? Before it was a fairly good and fluffy force, but not anymore.

I should be able to work without stormtroopers and ogryns, but at the same time they should offer me new things, not invaluable things. I should be able to field a pure infantry force and I should be able to have a mechanized army and still manage it to some extent. Not some vanilla, down the middle, cross section of little bit of everything.

Vaktathi
06-11-2008, 23:57
Not all hellguns run from backpacks. The previous models had magazines in their guns. Backpack only means they don't have to reload and overload anything (weren't the hotshot packs unreliable or something?) while using it. But the notion of an Assault 3 standard issue weapon even on an "elite" force is a little too much for me. Not many other armies have such. Hell, mostly only heavy weapons are 3 shot.

If the 3 shot function was Heavy 3 next to maybe Assault 2 (like with the Sonic Blaster), I could live with it, but a pure pwnage from the box seems a little over the top. If it was so, who wouldn't take them? It's not like they have much competition. Mostly Ogryns and Ratlings. I wouldn't count Techpriests into it as they're more of a special unit than something to compete with the Stormtroopers. To be made actually worth 10pts, even with the upgraded basic gun, they'd need to come with infiltrate/DS, as they won't match up in CC and would still be at best on par in a shooting war for equivalent points.

"Pure Pwnage"?

Don't get distracted by the shot #, look at the average casualties. A 3shot S3 weapon gives identical average wound output to a 2 shot S4 weapon against T3 and T4 opponents. I'd hardly call that "pure pwnage".

10pts for a T3 S3 BS3 WS3 I3 Ld8 unit with a 3shot S3 weapon is hardly overpowered.

The problem is, right now, as a 10pt model, a Stormtrooper is only worth 7. Even with the upgunned hellgun, they still aren't defeating Space Marines, Dire Avengers, CSM's, etc point for point in a shooting war (and will lose in CC almost assuredly), and those are all basic troops, not an Elites than can be taken as a Troop in limited numbers.



And why Eldar tech should be better, because it is. Many xenos tech is. Hell, you have S4 digi-weapons fitted into rings. It's just one of those facts of life. Guard is rugged, Marines are poster boys and Eldar have better stuff and skin tight uniforms. I'm not saying Eldar stuff isn't more advanced, I'm saying that there *can* be weapons that are better than some Eldar weapons in terms of game stats. Such would likely be restricted to a handful of units of course, but I don't see why a massive hellgun rifle can't put out more hurt than an Eldar Lasblaster. It may require more maintenance, is far heavier and bulkier, and may only be operable for a couple hours, while the Eldar weapon may function flawlessly with minimal maintenance and carry hundreds of shots within a tiny powerpack. Both can make sense.



Weigh in my cup = none. Who needs some glory boyz?:eyebrows:


But ok, to be absolutely frank for a moment, you wanna know number one reason why I oppose such a thing? Balance. If stormtroopers are made into a unit you can't leave home without, what does that do to armies that don't have them? They have to get them or get looked down with anything from "you should get some STs" all the way to "why don't you have STs, you stupid or something, they're just so good." The stormtrooper changes should not be made in a vacuum, the vast majority of the rest of the army needs similar improvement. Ogryns, Ratlings, basic guardsmen, command squads, etc *ALL* need points drops, equipment & stat adjustements, etc. The Hellgun change should occur *with* all these other changes, with everything getting improved, and thus not make them a "must take". The entire IG army needs revamps in many cases similar to the hellgun suggestions.




I should be able to work without stormtroopers and ogryns, but at the same time they should offer me new things, not invaluable things. I should be able to field a pure infantry force and I should be able to have a mechanized army and still manage it to some extent. Not some vanilla, down the middle, cross section of little bit of everything.See above.

Scorpion
07-11-2008, 01:30
Range 18" S3 Ap5 Assault 3


Copy it, paste it, and take it to the presses! That's the kind of Hellgun I'd like to see!

(Though it would be interesting if it was Assault1 AP3...)

TheOneWithNoName
07-11-2008, 01:39
Storm Troopers getting AP3 Hellguns? Just in time for the plastic kits! :D

Thornz
07-11-2008, 01:40
HELLGUN = Range 18" S3 Ap5 Assault 3

...you really hit all the right buttons. You've got a high rate of fire to represent the vast ammo supply that storm troopers carry. You've got Ap5 to represent the increased penetrative power of the hellgun itself. And as an assault weapon, you finally represent the fact that storm troopers are supposed to be front line troops, assaulting things. The low strength balances the high RoF, so it isn't overpowered. And it's unique, in that it isn't just a dull carbon copy of existing weapons..

This is great and I fully support it ! :D :D :D

t-tauri
07-11-2008, 05:31
A quantity of posts which would see the thread head to P&R removed. This is no longer a rumour thread but an IG Fantasy List.

Moved to 40k general.

Devil Tree
07-11-2008, 05:35
While I personally prefer the 1942 Soviet style armies, I hope the new Codex is flexible enough to accommodate the more elite style armies. The Codex should be reworked to include all the options that we could get with the doctrines system.

Lord Cook
07-11-2008, 06:08
Weigh in my cup = none. Who needs some glory boyz?

All units should in an ideal world be viable choices.


But ok, to be absolutely frank for a moment, you wanna know number one reason why I oppose such a thing? Balance.

There's no balance issue, because it's in no way overpowered. Three S3 shots are exactly the same as two S4 shots against your average T4 opponent. Exactly the same. Then you're about 20% better against T3 opponents, and 25% worse against T5.

You're looking at the three shots in isolation, as though they're coming from a bolter, but that's not the case at all. What we'd actually be getting is a weapon that's better against small, numerous targets like hormagaunts, but worse against larger, tougher stuff. Isn't that exactly how it should be? You don't need a rocket powered explosive bolter shell to kill a termagant, so a hail of lasers is more efficient. But that same hail will bounce off plague marines, while the bolters will be more able to punch through.

In terms of balance, it should cost maybe 1 point/model more than a bolter, because you can assault after firing it. Having an extra 6" range when moving is largely balanced by having 6" shorter range when stationary.

MadDoc
07-11-2008, 07:22
Want a nice simple, yet (IMHO) elegant, solution for hellguns:



.........................Range....Strength....AP.. ..Type
Hellgun..................24"............3...........5......Assault 1, Twin-linked


Simple enough, and not (again IMHO) at all over the top, unlike AP 3 or Rending.

Devil Tree
07-11-2008, 07:26
I really couldn’t care less if they are strength 4 assault 2 or strength 3 assault 3. All I care about is that Storm Troopers are equipped with something better than a glorified laser pointer and that they are able to fire on the move. IG are seriously lacking in mobile firepower right now, which is one of the jobs ST ’s are supposed to provide.

Devil Tree
07-11-2008, 07:33
No offence, but would you actually use this in your own army? And please don't bring up the strawman argument about AP 3 or rending, very few people claim they want it.


Want a nice simple, yet (IMHO) elegant, solution for hellguns:


Quote .........................Range....Strength....AP.. ..Type
Hellgun..................24"............3...........5......Assault 1, Twin-linked
Simple enough, and not (again IMHO) at all over the top, unlike AP 3 or Rending.

MadDoc
07-11-2008, 08:52
No offence, but would you actually use this in your own army?

Yes I would. Why? Wouldn't you? Sure its not Assault 3 (better than the more advanced Eldar Lasblaster, why? The hellgun is never mentioned as having a particularly high rate of fire) or Strength 4 (as much power as a bolter? And don't bring up the 2nd Edition argument, hotshots may have been Strength 4 back then, but the stat scale has changed since then, assault cannons used to be the equivalent of sustained fire krak missiles, yet now are Strength 6, know why? Different stat scale), but then, I don't personally think it should be either of those anyway.

Also I had an alternate suggestion...



.........................Range....Strength....AP.. ..Type
Hellgun..................24"............3...........5......Assault 1, Re-roll Failed Wounds


After all, they fire hot shots.


And please don't bring up the strawman argument about AP 3 or rending, very few people claim they want it.

They were used as comparative examples, nothing more, nothing less... I could have just as easily said Strength 5 or Assault 3...

Vaktathi
07-11-2008, 09:09
Want a nice simple, yet (IMHO) elegant, solution for hellguns:



Simple enough, and not (again IMHO) at all over the top, unlike AP 3 or Rending.

Assault 1?


Comparative maths with Assault 1 TL, Assault 1 re-roll wounds, and current Rapid Fire versus various targets.

Assault 1 TL:
MEQ: .098 wounds
GEQ: .441 wounds

Assault 1 Re-Roll wounds
MEQ:.123
GEQ: .5

Rapid Fire (2 shots)
MEQ:.148
GEQ: .66

Rapid Fire 24" 1 shot
MEQ: .074
GEQ: .33


So while you get better performance against targets at 12-24", at 12" and under their effectiveness drops a *lot*, and makes ST's nigh useless against horde type units, especially where such close range is where the majority if ST's special weapons are truly effective.


Think about it. Would you really pay 10pts per model for a unit with an S3 1 shot weapon? Even with re-roll wounds, I don't think I'd even pay 7pts for it, maybe not even 6 (especially not compared with a Shoota boy, who while stuck with BS2 and only a 6+ save, has a better gun, higher T, 3 attacks on a charge, WS4, and S4 on a charge)

If ST's got a Shoota equivalent, I'd be fine with that too, but an S3 Assault 1 weapon, no matter what you put on it practically, won't cut it

MadDoc
07-11-2008, 09:33
Assault 1?

Comparative maths with Assault 1 TL, Assault 1 re-roll wounds, and current Rapid Fire versus various targets.

Assault 1 TL:
MEQ: .098 wounds
GEQ: .441 wounds

Assault 1 Re-Roll wounds
MEQ:.123
GEQ: .5

Rapid Fire (2 shots)
MEQ:.148
GEQ: .66

Rapid Fire 24" 1 shot
MEQ: .074
GEQ: .33

All very interesting... but fails to take into account the fact that Range 24" Assault 1 allows you to move and shoot (just as effectively regardless of range) upto 24", while Rapid Fire does not allow this. With Assault you can also assault/charge after shooting, which once again, with Rapid Fire you can not.


So while you get better performance against targets at 12-24", at 12" and under their effectiveness drops a *lot*, and makes ST's nigh useless against horde type units, especially where such close range is where the majority if ST's special weapons are truly effective.

By that, you seem to be suggesting that ST should be an anti-horde unit, which fits neither their background nor their in game role. Or am I reading that wrong?

Assault 3 is too much (its not representative of the background, since when have hellguns had a rate of fire faster than a standard las? The opposite has always been suggested (the higher output results in a slightly longer charge cycle)), Strength 5 is way over the top, even Strength 4 is dubious at best. Range 24" Strength 3 AP 5 Assault 2? Passable, but then its just an Imperial knock off of a Lasblaster.

The more I think about it, the more I prefer my 2nd suggestion.

Vaktathi
07-11-2008, 09:52
All very interesting... but fails to take into account the fact that Range 24" Assault 1 allows you to move and shoot (just as effectively regardless of range) upto 24", while Rapid Fire does not allow this. With Assault you can also assault/charge after shooting, which once again, with Rapid Fire you can not.I didn't ignore the fact that you could move and shoot, I pointed out that ST's are however most effective up close. 24" range shooting isn't their strong point, only half their special weapons can even shoot that far, and only one is maximally effective at that range.

And how often are Stormtroopers going to assault something? Lets be honest here. 90% of the units in the game can outfight them even after taking a full round of fire from the ST's. The only thing my ST's ever assault is vehicles to use their Krak grenades.




By that, you seem to be suggesting that ST should be an anti-horde unit, which fits neither their background nor their in game role. Or am I reading that wrong? I'm not suggesting they are an anti-horde specialist unit (although by their armament they would appear to be) but rather a close range firepower unit. Decreasing their effectiveness against horde units while maintaining a rough parity against MEQ units doesn't seem like much of an advantage.




Assault 3 is too much (its not representative of the background, since when have hellguns had a rate of fire faster than a standard las? The opposite has always been suggested (the higher output results in a slightly longer charge cycle)), Strength 5 is way over the top, even Strength 4 is dubious at best. Range 24" Strength 3 AP 5 Assault 2? Passable, but then its just an Imperial knock off of a Lasblaster. *ugh* why do people keep coming back to the Eldar thing (not trying to be offensive, it just keeps coming up and I find it to be a silly argument), I addressed it earlier, but it appears it got deleted. Not going to bother again, suffice to say there are plenty of reasons why something could be just as good if not better than Eldar stuff on special units for the duration of a battle.

S5 is over the top, no doubt. However people seem continually fixated on the 3 shots for the assault 3 version and not the end effect, which is identical in wound output to a 2shot S4 weapon. ST's as is are worth 7pts at best, point for point spent on them they *will* lose shooting wars with SM's, Dire Avengers, CSM's, Shoota Boys (yes really), and Fire Warriors, usually by a pretty big margin. I won't do the math again here (done it in other threads however if anyone cares to spend the time searching). 3 shots sounds horrendous at first, but its really not. Against MEQ's it gives you identical average wounds to a 2shot S4 weapon.

Now, losing on a model for model basis, thats fine against certain units, but when equivalent points are spent, thats not good, especially when the ST's will lose CC to all the above save the Fire Warriors as well. with an S4 assault 2/S3 Assault 3 weapon they'd be worth 10 if they came with DS/Infil as they'd be able to stand in a shooting war at least, even if not CC still.


And I'm still not seeing whats so unholy about S4 weapons in an IG army. If Orks can ramshackle a pipe and some burny powder to an S4 assault 2 weapon and S4 pistols, surely a specialist laser weapon with a massive powerpack could do the same?

shutupSHUTUP!!!
07-11-2008, 12:06
I also throw my weight behind the assault 3 arguement. It means 7 storm troopers (the number not equipped with special weapons or a pistol in the average squad) might generally kill 1 or 2 marines or about 5 Orks a turn.

That gives them enough punch to worry a 5-man combat squad whilst not being much of a threat individually to a full tactical Squad. Seems about right for the power scale of Storm Troopers in the tabletop game to me.

Scorpion
07-11-2008, 12:12
its not representative of the background, since when have hellguns had a rate of fire faster than a standard las?

Since the minute GW decides it does.

That's one thing that has been bugging me about your argument. The notion that you can define what the Hellgun does or does not do (or how it compares to other Xeno weapons) based solelly on the fluff is ridiculous, because the only concrete explanation of how a gun performs is found not on the fluff, but on the rules themselves! Therefore, basing what a weapon should be on what it is creates circular reasoning that makes change impossible!
Fluff is mutable, it is written to accomodate the rules, not the other way around. If it wasn't, there would be no point in making new codeci. There would be no new units, nor new rules for the old ones.

To define what a Hellgun should be, there should only be given consideration to the unit's playability and competitiveness. We should not chain ourselves to 10-yaer-old fluff. New fluff will follow. And if any of you doubt my word, I point you to the new Chaos codeci. Khorn and and Slaanesh are best buddies now, apparently...

And BTW, 18" Str3 AP3 Assault 3 doesn't sound that bad either! It's time those power-armoured sissy-pants glory-boys got a run for their money...

Brimstone
07-11-2008, 12:25
A number of off topic posts removed regarding real world armies, this is not a suitable place for that discussion so any repetition will have harsher action.

Stay on topic please.

The Warseer Inquisition

The Hobo Hunter
07-11-2008, 12:42
Assault 1?
Think about it. Would you really pay 10pts per model for a unit with an S3 1 shot weapon? Even with re-roll wounds, I don't think I'd even pay 7pts for it, maybe not even 6 (especially not compared with a Shoota boy, who while stuck with BS2 and only a 6+ save, has a better gun, higher T, 3 attacks on a charge, WS4, and S4 on a charge)

Who says they're staying at 10 points? If stormtroopers got a points drop, or some 'commando'-like rules to aid them (and not rules which directly translate into dice rolling math-hammer), would people be happy with their glorified lasgun? It is, after all, all a hellgun is.

@Scorpion: If we are going to talk rules, I'll discuss hellguns in Dark Heresy, since I never played Inquisitor. No-one in our party has gotten anywhere near one of these babies yet, but from what I can see in the Inquisitor's Handbook (I think thats the place with most/all hellgun variants), they are simply overpowered lasguns.

Even with the higher ammunition level due to the backpack, they do not have an increased rate of fire of any significance. In fact, without the backpack(ie, with a normal lasgun clip in there), they have an effectively lower rate of fire, as the clip runs out a lot more frequently than a lasgun - something like 4 times as quickly. I don't have my book handy, but I think they might pump out one 'bullet' per turn more per round, which in DH doesn't do a whole lot considering the way rules for automatic weapons work.

There was only one type of hellgun capable of sustaining a fully-automatic rate-of-fire (in DH gameplay terms), and it was a super-duper-ultra-rare-forgeworld-only variant. And even then, it fired less bullets than an autogun - which happens to be rapid-fire in 40k tabletop terms.

I still don't see why, except out of some perverse sense of balance, hellguns can be represented as assault weapons.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
07-11-2008, 12:59
I think you're missing Scorpions point. If hellguns are changed to be assault 3 and described as having a high rate of fire in the new dex, few will care what Dark Heresy says about them anymore because it will be obsolete. The fluff changes.

People want assault 3 because of the need for the weapon to be useful whilst not wanting it to be a bolter.

esk34
07-11-2008, 13:03
I dont run stormies now, but if they were to have enough punch to be the elite fist that my army is meant to have, I would in a second have at least 1 squad.

I propose shotguns at S4 like the marines seem to get, and the option of s3 a3 ap5 like has been suggested earlier.

This would give them a good amount of killy power, and would really allow them to be the unit I need them to be. I want people to worry about more than the tanks in my IG army.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
07-11-2008, 13:08
Exactly. Making lacklustre units cheaper doesn't necessarily solve the problems with the guard codex. So a lot of people will prefer better storm troopers rather than cheaper storm troopers. If this starts to step on the toes of other dexes, well big deal. They are only abstract representations of the 40k universe, balance and useful gameplay mechanics are what matter.

AtnaShadow
07-11-2008, 13:15
Hobo Hunter, you beat me to it, I was just looking for the Hellgun entry in DH when I got to your post.

Anyway, yes, Hellguns in the DH rules do seem to be just slightly scaled up lasguns. They have one higher base damage and have an armour pen value of three, which honestly would probably put them squarely in at around s3ap5 in regular 40k terms. That said, they also have a longer effective range than lasguns, so something could be done with that, potentially.


Also, since the ap3 idea kept getting thrown around so much, I was thinking stormtroopers could take an upgrade similar to Dire Avenger's bladestorm. Let them take Hot-shot packs for some amount of points. In DH they significantly increase a las weapons damage and penetration, but only contain enough power for one shot. So STs could arm their hellguns with the hot-shot packs, and each fire of one shot at increased strength and ap that turn, and then spend the next unable to shoot

shutupSHUTUP!!!
07-11-2008, 13:21
Because an infiltrating or deep striking squad needs a 30" range gun. :rolleyes:

AtnaShadow
07-11-2008, 13:24
Not saying that's a change that'd make them any more effective, was just pointing out what the DH difference between hellguns and lasguns was. I have no problems with them becoming assault weapons, personally.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
07-11-2008, 13:35
Fair enough.

I think it's silly to use Dark Heresy as a font for fluff at all actually. You may as well get your hellgun stats from Dawn of War or Gaunt's Ghosts. Is the hellgun in Dawn of War not a hellgun if it doesn't fit DH's description? Dark heresy does not say the hellgun is range a 24" str 3 ap5 rapid fire weapon for that matter either, or give any other stats to that effect. Gameplay =/= fluff (to an extent anyway).

No matter what GW does with the hellgun in the new dex, it will be no more and no less fluffy than it now.

MadDoc
07-11-2008, 13:47
Unless they make it AP 3 or Strength 5 or give it Rending...

Any of which would make them less fluffy (or just plain broken). :angel:

To be completely honest if lasguns really are becoming Assault 2, then that'd be all hellguns needed as well (hellguns are slightly buffed lasguns with abit more punch, hence AP 5 (any more AP than that would be stupid and C:SM style broken)). Even if it would give hellguns the same stats as Eldar lasblasters...

shutupSHUTUP!!!
07-11-2008, 14:02
I'm not convinced assault 2 would give them the needed punch though. I want storm troopers to be a bit more of a threat personally. And ffs, screw Eldar lasblasters. They could change stats with a new codex too for all we know, and you could argue any position you like on the fluff ("eldar have bettar tech! Well guard have backpacks! well eldar should be bettar they are moar l33t! lol they are pansies who fly liek tinkerbell, storm troopers have real guns! well eldar have better tech! Well guardsmen have backpacks!" etc).

Fellblade
07-11-2008, 15:21
On the "rumor" front, FW might have tipped GW's hand on what to expect from the new Chimera. In the IA:2 rules update that FW just released chimera cost 55pts with multilaser, heavy bolter, smoke, and searchlight included. They also include two additional special rules in addition to Amphibious; Mobile Command Vehicle and Armored Firebase. It doesn't say what those do, I'm sure we'll need to wait for the IG book, but we can speculate. The vehicle upgrade options also got a point adjustment to keep things in line with the new trends.

My guess would be Armored Firebase would relax the rules on firing main weapons on the move so it could fire both the multilaser and heavy bolter on the move. Perhaps the Mobile Command Vehicle rule would either extend an officer's command range or maybe just allow him to use it while mounted.

You can find the doc here (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/pdf/ia2-update.pdf).

MrBigMr
07-11-2008, 16:47
Hmm... 55pts. Chimera and 15pts. extra armour. That's 70pts. All in all it's the old Chimera with free extra armour, multi-laser and hull HB.

Commissar_Mike
07-11-2008, 17:06
Extra armor costs 5 points, not 15. Unless I'm missing something.

Multi-laser is 10. Hull H Bolter is 5. Total cost 75 w/ extra armor.

In essence, instead of 70+ weapons, it's 70 including weapons.

Commissar Masyk
07-11-2008, 17:30
Stormtroopers are more or less designed for up-close firefights; storming bunkers and popping tanks and such. They're the front-liners, the shock troops. They don't sit at the back and plink away at things, that's for grunts. Stormtroopers are supposed to be elite.

Why would they ever need to be firing at long ranges? It doesn't make sense. They have infiltrate and deep strike for a reason. They have grenades for a reason. They have better armor and Ld for a reason. Why? Because they're supposed to be up close and personal with the enemy, getting in their face and shooting the hell out of them.

They need a gun that properly suits this goal. A short-ranged, multi-shot carbine that fits their short-ranged firefight M.O. You know, like all the other special weapons they can take? Firing a single shot on the move doesn't make much sense at all. Even with rerolls (to hit or wound) at S3 it's only marginally better than an ordinary lasgun - so what's the point of taking them at all?

Range 12" S3 AP5 Assault 3 looks like the magic number to me. It's up-close and personal, allows firing on the move, and lays down enough shots for the smaller squad size to be worth something.

Lord Cook
07-11-2008, 17:38
Extra armor costs 5 points, not 15. Unless I'm missing something.

Multi-laser is 10. Hull H Bolter is 5. Total cost 75 w/ extra armor.

In essence, instead of 70+ weapons, it's 70 including weapons.

You're missing something ;). Read the document that Fellblade has linked to in post #244. Certain weapons come as standard, and the cost of upgrades has changed.

Vaktathi
07-11-2008, 18:52
Range 12" S3 AP5 Assault 3 looks like the magic number to me. It's up-close and personal, allows firing on the move, and lays down enough shots for the smaller squad size to be worth something.

The primary issue with a 12" range weapon is that it means stormtroopers are likely to be counterassaulted or double-tapped back (which they can't take much of) and thus get only a single round of shooting off. an 18" range would still keep them a very short ranged unit, but with enough range to get off some shots without immediately getting charged in the enemies next turn or (if the enemy is in terrain) a possibility of avoiding a rapid fire double-tap response.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
07-11-2008, 19:53
The average Chimera is going to cost 55 points because most people will consider extra armour inefficient at 15 pts, so overall they are significantly cheaper.

Current Chimera: multilaser, heavy bolter, extra armour and smokes 93 pts
New Chimera: multilaser, heavy bolter, searchlight and smokes 55 pts

Like I said in the locked thread, for the price of two current Chimera's, you can afford 3 and a half new ones (sans extra armour). Now that's the sort of price drop I'm talking about.

(This post was officially sponsored by Ursarkar Creed)
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