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MadDoc
30-10-2008, 06:59
Was looking through something and had a bravewave...




CUSTODIAN GUARD SQUAD.................................160 points

...........................WS..BS..S...T...W...I.. .A...Ld...Sv
Companion.............5....4...4...4....1....4...3 ...10...2+
Custodian...............4....4...4...4....1....4.. .2...10...2+

Unit Composition:
1 Companion
2 Custodians
Unit Type:

Infantry
Special Rules:

Fearless
Honour or Death (Companion only)

Wargear:

Artificer armour
Guardian spear (Relic blade + bolter)
Frag grenades
Krak grenades

Options:

May include up to seven additional Custodians for +50 points per model.
The Companion may take:
- digital weapons for +10 points.
Any model may take:
- melta bombs for +5 points.


Does this seem familiar to anybody, it should.

I looked at the inspiration for this and the thought suddenly dawned on me. :D

Comments, crits, etc. welcome.

Hellebore
30-10-2008, 07:46
The new marine Honour guard?

Looks good to me...

Hellebore

MadDoc
30-10-2008, 07:56
The new marine Honour guard?

Got it in one Doug. ;)


Looks good to me...

Hellebore

It just seemed so obvious when I thought about it. I also had some ideas for Foot Knights, Custodian bolter squads and Custodian Terminators (complete with fire lances (can't recall the correct name :()).

Hellebore
30-10-2008, 08:27
I was trying to think of a justifiable reason to have a custodes army post heresy.

The idea I had was that the custodes require extremely well trained warriors and the only way they can BECOME superbly skilled is in active combat. Training can only produce so much, live fire can turn good soldiers into excellent ones (or dead ones but hey, there are plenty of humans).

So the idea I had was training fleets that travel the galaxy with custodes aspirants, throwing them into the fiercest warzones and battefields in order to weed out the weak and strengthen the mighty. They might start out with 1000 aspirants only to whittle them down to 5 or 6 (a bit like the Last Chancers in the novels).

Then the veteran aspirants are inducted into the custodes and sent to earth to take over from those already there.

The training fleet would obviously require a cadre of veteran custodes to train the aspirants.

Thus you have an army that is led by custodes and has custodes squads in it, but its main infantry are scouts or scoutesque units. It seemed to get over the hurdle of the custodes - that they never leave earth.

My reasoning is if they never leave earth then they won't be very good soldiers and the won't be very good at fighting the different races found in the galaxy. Real practical experience coupled with the training of a custodes work together to produce a soldier superior to anything in the Imperium.

That was basically my idea for how to justify a Custodes army in 41st millennium...

Hellebore

MadDoc
01-11-2008, 06:08
The thing is, they don't necessarily have to be out and about in the 41st Millenium, there are more than enough Heresy Era armies floating about to attest to that.

I've always thought it'd be nice to have a list, and the idea of tweaking new Honour Guard just came to me all of a sudden and I thought "hell yes". :D

Hellebore
01-11-2008, 06:29
The thing is, they don't necessarily have to be out and about in the 41st Millenium, there are more than enough Heresy Era armies floating about to attest to that.

I've always thought it'd be nice to have a list, and the idea of tweaking new Honour Guard just came to me all of a sudden and I thought "hell yes". :D

True, but then I wanted a reason to use them now and also an explanation for how such an important bodyguard is trained if they never leave a planet surrounded by weapons. I would be rather disappointed if they were completely ornamental...


Hellebore

MadDoc
01-11-2008, 07:51
Fair dos... just not something that I'd given any consideration mainly due to the Custodes being restricted to Terra now according to the background).

Heres alittle something... albeit very WIP...




CUSTODIAN FOOT KNIGHTS.................................250 points

...........................WS..BS..S...T...W...I.. .A...Ld...Sv
Centurion...............5....4...4...4....1....4.. .2...10...3+
Foot Knight.............4....4...4...4....1....4...2... 10...3+

Unit Composition:
1 Centurion
4 Foot Knights
Unit Type:

Infantry
Special Rules:

Fearless

Wargear:

Power armour
Knight Gladius (power weapon + bolter)
Storm shield
Frag grenades
Krak grenades

Options:

May include up to five additional Foot Knights for +45 points per model.
The Centurion may take:
- digital weapons for +10 points.
Any model may take:
- melta bombs for +5 points.

Orthodox
01-11-2008, 08:00
You are still implying that if you take an entire continent and flood it with qat and cheap assault rifles, in a few generations the entire population of Africa will have whittled down to African Rainbow Six.

Maybe you aren't saying that. It still has some sardaukar fallacy in it, and it forgets that the first word in bodyguards is indoctrination, not skills training. I think the custodes expeditionary training is fluff already, though.

The rules are kind of boring, because they aren't very different from Honor Guard. They should have shield of faith, for their emperor connection, and maybe a fancier leadership rule. Also the spear is awkward. Firing a bolter on a stick should be different than firing a bolter, and rapid fire guns on a cc unit just aren't going to used in game, which makes the wargear kind of irrelevant because it doesn't flavor the gameplay. The hellfires are also just buffs that don't connect to anything in the fluff besides general super-ness.

The captain at least should have I5.

Hellebore
01-11-2008, 08:24
You are still implying that if you take an entire continent and flood it with qat and cheap assault rifles, in a few generations the entire population of Africa will have whittled down to African Rainbow Six.

Maybe you aren't saying that. It still has some sardaukar fallacy in it, and it forgets that the first word in bodyguards is indoctrination, not skills training. I think the custodes expeditionary training is fluff already, though.


No, I am not saying that. They would recruit in exactly the same manner as the space marines (who put their wouldbe initiates through similar exercises, just not for as long as I am proposing). So unless you think that marine initiate training is flawed in the same way I don't know what you're getting at.

Just as the Penal Legion led by Schaeffer was whittled down to a few neversaydie's.

In fact your arguement breaks your own rules. You say that they would be great bodyguards with nothing but indoctrination, you can't get rainbow six out of a room full of people staring at a board that says 'protect the emperor' any more than you can running a bunch of plebs through a meatgrinder.


As for 'boring' there aren't that many variables in the game to toy with. Unless you fundamentally muck up the marine statline or create outlandish special rules, then a marine is a marine so they will all be boring.

Hellebore

Orthodox
01-11-2008, 10:13
Excuse me. "Maybe you aren't-" meant "Actually you are not going so far as-"


So unless you think that marine initiate training is flawed in the same way I don't know what you're getting at.

In fact your arguement breaks your own rules. You say that they would be great bodyguards with nothing but indoctrination, you can't get rainbow six out of a room full of people staring at a board that says 'protect the emperor' any more than you can running a bunch of plebs through a meatgrinder.
I did not say that, and I do believe some popular conception of marine training is flawed. I said that the first word in bodyguard training is indoctrination, and it is true. It is actually worse to have powerful bodyguards if they cannot be relied on. The space marines' function is as a conquering army, the custodes and companions secure the emperor's person, and in fact protect him from his actual vassal armies, who are obviously dangerous to be around.

The sardaukar fallacy (which you have little if any of) is that marines recruit from warrior cultures for martial aptitude. They only want the basic traits of physical and mental hardiness generally, not real combat experience, which they could not get from such young candidates anyway. Their purpose as a martial formation is to sneak into villages and ruin everyone's stuff. They can be trusted to do that with a certain character, because the implantation itself makes them think and act the way their primarchs did. Hopefully they can be corralled into doing it to the bad guys' villages and not the Emperor's.

The purpose of custodes is to stop the Emperor's face getting ruined, or kidnapped, or otherwise coerced. To do his job, the Emperor needs to be secure from the threat of other armies, and furthermore not dependent on other armies for that security.

Custodes are made, then they can make spurious arguments on the internet, not the other way around. The custodes' expeditions are for fully trained custodes who need to keep their hands in.



As for 'boring' there aren't that many variables in the game to toy with. Unless you fundamentally muck up the marine statline or create outlandish special rules, then a marine is a marine so they will all be boring.

Yes space marines all have the same statline and economic rent is their main trait. However, honour guard do things that tactical marines do not, that various terminators do not, that command squads do not. They play appreciably differently, in regards to their combat ability, the transports they can ride, their deployment options, &c. These custodes are mostly rehashed honour guard.

A jumppack is a special rule, in the least literal way. Armor that prevents rhino embarkation, a bunch of power weapons, fnp, and a bike option is a special rule, also in that way that is not a Special Rule. Stubborn really is a special rule. Everything has special rules. Why would they not have special rules? If they do not have special rules, why would you not just use honor guard /who are functionally identical/, or heaven forfend such prosaism, grey knights?

Well because grey knights aren't quite in character. They have psychic stuff the custodes wouldn't have. Why are greater custodes in 2+ armor with relic blades while lesser custodes are in 3+ with power weapons? They should have some modifier to their no retreat wounds, or limited sweeping advance to reflect their holding-action training, or something that makes them different and also more represenational.

Why not silly-hatted capey types?

MadDoc
01-11-2008, 11:43
Yes, because basically ripping my idea to shreds without actually considering that these units occupy different slots to the Honour Guard, may well have additional army wide rules (which they do, but which are WIP as yet), or that you've seen only a very small selection of units is so constructive. :rolleyes:

So how about rather than simply panning the idea out-of-hand (and insulting both me and my intelligence while you're at it), you instead try and offer something constructive. Think you could manage that?

Orthodox
01-11-2008, 14:36
these units occupy different slots to the Honour Guard, may well have additional army wide rules (which they do, but which are WIP as yet), or that you've seen only a very small selection of units is so constructive. :rolleyes:
You are saying that you presented prematurely and without context.


insulting both me and my intelligence
Excuse me.


constructive. Think you could manage that?
Potentially. Make first an abstract summarizing the force org and other army characteristics, specifying initially that it is an army and not a stand-alone or add-on unit. Include also in the unit entries some explanation of their function, relation to other units, and why they they have the gear they do.

MadDoc
02-11-2008, 03:35
You are saying that you presented prematurely and without context.

Patronising and insulting comments like that one, make me even less inclined to give your remarks the consideration the may be due. If you want to continue insulting my intelligence go right ahead, but don't dare patronise/condescend to me again or your comments will be summarily ignored.


Excuse me.

Would be much easier if this weren't preceded by patronising/condescending comments like the one above.


Potentially. Make first an abstract summarizing the force org and other army characteristics, specifying initially that it is an army and not a stand-alone or add-on unit.

Since the initial post was to try and get the ball rolling and encourage others to help contribute. A Custodian Guard squad, would as the name suggests, be the mainstay unit of an Adeptus Custodes force. But I was of course working under the presumption that people contributing would be familiar enough with the Adeptus Custodes background to realise this. Clearly I was in error.


Include also in the unit entries some explanation of their function, relation to other units, and why they they have the gear they do.

Such as the fact that the equipment I gave them is that which they are potrayed with (the hellfire rounds were more to give them something to make the bolter worth firing). The Foot Knights are shown in less ornate Thunder Armour (Mk. I Power armour) and carrying power weapons incorporating a bolter of some kind (possibly a storm bolter or bolt pistol, this could do with changing I think) and large shields. The most common Custodes (Sentinals) are shown wielding Guardian Spears (described in the background as power halberds with integral bolters, so that they have both ranged and melee capabilities, you have to choose which to make use of (whichis why their bolters and not bolter-carbione esque Range 18", Assault 2 bolters)) and ornate Thunder armour suits (likely artificed, hence artificer armour, that, and they're the Emperor's personal guard, so access to the best equipment is a given), there are also Custodians in similarly ornate armour shown with bolters (junior/frontline Custodes perhaps?).

Now see, that wasn't too difficult. You at least managed to contribute something constructive in the last paragraph. :p <- Note the smiley to denote humour, as quite frankly I could see this potentially getting very heated, very quickly.

Firaxin
02-11-2008, 05:06
Eh, I've always assumed custodians would be S/T 5. But other than that it looks like you're on the right track, though personally I would have made the guardian spear a storm bolter.

Weren't custodians described as having rosariuses, too?

MadDoc
02-11-2008, 06:06
Eh, I've always assumed custodians would be S/T 5.

The thing to remember is that Toughness 5 is a big step up from Toughness 4, just as Toughness 4 is a big step-up from Toughness 3. Toughness stats on the TT (due to the restrictive nature of the TT game) represent a wide range, just look at Inquisitor, humans (Toughness 3 , and including the likes of arco-flagellants, Techpriest Magi and Inquisitor Lords) have a Toughness range of 47-87, while Marines (Toughness 4) have a Toughness range of 129-165, see big difference. Although this is far from a perfect method though as there is some overlap, for example, in Inquisitor Genestealers (Toughness 4 TT) are Toughness range 82-92.


But other than that it looks like you're on the right track, though personally I would have made the guardian spear a storm bolter.

Why does everybody insist on giving Guardian Spears storm bolters? They're clearly bolters, they're even described as such in the background.


Weren't custodians described as having rosariuses, too?

Not in any of their current discriptions, at least not that I've read.

Firaxin
02-11-2008, 06:52
The thing to remember is that Toughness 5 is a big step up from Toughness 4, just as Toughness 4 is a big step-up from Toughness 3.
That's exactly the point though. Custodes have always been compared to marines as marines have been compared to guardsmen. They have been described as taller (Constantine Valdor was as tall as Alpharius, for example), stronger, and faster than normal marines. False Gods indicates that the time, effort, and expense put into engineering a member of the custodes was far longer and greater than that of a normal astartes. Thus I see their basic across the board stat to be 5.



Why does everybody insist on giving Guardian Spears storm bolters? They're clearly bolters, they're even described as such in the background.
Because I'm willing to bet the Custodes are trained to such an extent that they can use a mere boltgun as if it was a stormbolter. Rapid fire out to longer ranges, actually knowing how to charge and shoot at the same time (personally i rationalize that bit of the rapid fire rules by imagining the marines using the butt of their bolters as clubs. But a spear... well, the bolter would be pointing towards the enemy rather than away)


Not in any of their current discriptions, at least not that I've read.
Hmm... I coulda sworn they did... I'll have to check up on that.

Post heresy custodes have power fields for sure though. In their helmets. Normally I would equate this to a storm shield, but seeing as its supposed to be the best in the imperium, it's probably a 2+ invul save. And they use lances which on the TT I'd say are about equivalent to an eldar star lance.

ManOfRust
02-11-2008, 09:59
Mad Doc, I can see what you're trying to do here and it's just a shame that some people arn't getting into the spirit of it.

A whole army of Custodes would probably have the same difficulties as Grey Knights in that they are a desperately small and elite force but without the advantage that they are entirely devoted to fighting one foe. I can see you having difficulties trying to compose balanced forces without either failing to do justice to the bad-assery that are the custodes or just being so hard as to be un-fair.

And in response to Custodes being so much tougher than regular Astartes, a 1st company veteran is also supposed to be far superior in near every respect to a regular marine (better marksman, better cc skills, tactical know-whats) but all they have to show for it stat-wise is an extra attack and +1LD.

It's a bit of a cop-out but I feel that custodes are just too elite to field a whole army of, when I first saw your post subbing them in as honour-guard (a great and very convenient idea by the way) I had the sudden image of using them in a Heresy era Defense of the Emperor's Palace kind of army, the last desperate defence and the retreat from the walls. Survivors of Imperial Fist, White Scars and Blood Angel squads hashed together and forced into ad-hoc units as a last stand held together by a few squads of Custodes and mighty heroes of the Legions. This is still a cop-out though as it's using 'counts as' rules from the SM codex and what you're aiming at is a complete, new army list which is a whole lot of work but I'd be very interested in the kinds of support that a pure Custodes army might field.

MadDoc
02-11-2008, 14:01
That's exactly the point though. Custodes have always been compared to marines as marines have been compared to guardsmen. They have been described as taller (Constantine Valdor was as tall as Alpharius, for example), stronger, and faster than normal marines. False Gods indicates that the time, effort, and expense put into engineering a member of the custodes was far longer and greater than that of a normal astartes. Thus I see their basic across the board stat to be 5.

I feel you're being alittle too liberal in your interpretations there, but that could just be me. I should point out that the Custodian Guard Squad presented is a basic/core Troop selection, meaning that the "basic" Custodes unit is much better than those of Marines or even GK.


Because I'm willing to bet the Custodes are trained to such an extent that they can use a mere boltgun as if it was a stormbolter. Rapid fire out to longer ranges, actually knowing how to charge and shoot at the same time (personally i rationalize that bit of the rapid fire rules by imagining the marines using the butt of their bolters as clubs. But a spear... well, the bolter would be pointing towards the enemy rather than away)

Marines are depicted in several places in the background as charging towards the enemy bolters blazing before smashing into them and tearing them apart in close combat. Are marine bolters Assault 2? Nope. Hmm, odd then that they should be depicted as being used the same way as you mention Guardian Spears being used. Guardian Spears have an integral bolter, it should therefore function as just that, a bolter.

While I appreciate your motivations, for me doing that would rankle and make the unit too good without any real appreciable downside (high points cost aside). Consider the bolters acting as bolters (and being Rapid Fire) as being as much a balance consideration as a fluff based one.


Hmm... I coulda sworn they did... I'll have to check up on that.

Not in their current iteration. No mention anywhere in the background.


Post heresy custodes have power fields for sure though. In their helmets. Normally I would equate this to a storm shield, but seeing as its supposed to be the best in the imperium, it's probably a 2+ invul save. And they use lances which on the TT I'd say are about equivalent to an eldar star lance.

You're getting this from Rogue Trader era (and early-mid Second Edition) sources, which have been superceded.
All of which is completely irrelevant, as these are clearly Pre-Heresy Custodes, they have their armour on (their cloaks are even red ;), rather than the black they changed to after the Emperor's Ascension into the Golden Throne).


Mad Doc, I can see what you're trying to do here and it's just a shame that some people arn't getting into the spirit of it.

Thank you, always nice to have another person who gets what you're trying to do.


A whole army of Custodes would probably have the same difficulties as Grey Knights in that they are a desperately small and elite force but without the advantage that they are entirely devoted to fighting one foe.

A small and Elite force is fine, afterall thats what the Adeptus Custodes are (the Elite Companions tend to be the limited ones more than the Custodes as a whole). They also tend to act more in support of other forces, but can act independently when need. The Custodians dispatched by the Emperor during the Crusade to "assist" (read: act as proxy reminders of who is really in charge) various Expedition Fleets are examples of the former, and the Custodians battling against the Daemons trying to breach the Imperial Palace through the breach Magnus' warning caused in the Imperial Webway conduit in the dungeon laboratories is an example of the latter (although they did fight alongside the Sisters of Silence/Silent Sisterhood and some Mechanicus Adepts, they still bore the brunt of the fighting).


I can see you having difficulties trying to compose balanced forces without either failing to do justice to the bad-assery that are the custodes or just being so hard as to be un-fair.

Its not too difficult, the high cost of the Custodians will limit how hard they are, and mean you have to be more sensible in choosing a force. As for units, the background gives us Custodian Guard Squads (ornate/artificer armour and Guardian Spears), Custodian Foot Knights (armed with a Gladius with integrated bolt weapon and carrying large shields), mounted Custodian Knights (on bullock jetcycles :cool: carrying laser lances and large shields), Custodian Tactical Dreadnought Squads (with vertically stacked storm bolters, which just look cool, and power fists and some form of flaming lance, also very cool looking), Custodian frontline bolter squads (spiffy armour and bolters, unique helmets). Thats a fair few units and thats not taking into account things like Chief Custodian Constantine Valdor, Shield Captains and Sentinals.

And even if the list had to be reimagined as a Hands of the Emperor list and altered to include Silent Sisterhood units (Hunter Squads, Prosecutor Squads, etc.) that'd hardly be a bad thing.


And in response to Custodes being so much tougher than regular Astartes, a 1st company veteran is also supposed to be far superior in near every respect to a regular marine (better marksman, better cc skills, tactical know-whats) but all they have to show for it stat-wise is an extra attack and +1LD.

This (the broader representative range nature of the TT stats) is what I was trying to get at with my more long winded Inquisitor analog.


It's a bit of a cop-out but I feel that custodes are just too elite to field a whole army of, when I first saw your post subbing them in as honour-guard (a great and very convenient idea by the way) I had the sudden image of using them in a Heresy era Defense of the Emperor's Palace kind of army, the last desperate defence and the retreat from the walls. Survivors of Imperial Fist, White Scars and Blood Angel squads hashed together and forced into ad-hoc units as a last stand held together by a few squads of Custodes and mighty heroes of the Legions. This is still a cop-out though as it's using 'counts as' rules from the SM codex and what you're aiming at is a complete, new army list which is a whole lot of work but I'd be very interested in the kinds of support that a pure Custodes army might field.

Its alot of work but I love the whole ethos of the Heresy era, and the new/expanded background now coming out of GW further fleshing it out, has me all inspired. :o I've even got plans to construct a full-sized, wearable, suit of Custodes Armour for myself (complete with Guardian Spear, and helmet with back-lit eyes) at some point (time and finances willing, at the risk of sounding conceited, the skill is there although otherwise employed at present). But thats a whole other story...

Mr_Rose
02-11-2008, 17:07
The thing is, they don't necessarily have to be out and about in the 41st Millenium, there are more than enough Heresy Era armies floating about to attest to that.

I've always thought it'd be nice to have a list, and the idea of tweaking new Honour Guard just came to me all of a sudden and I thought "hell yes". :DTrue, but then I wanted a reason to use them now and also an explanation for how such an important bodyguard is trained if they never leave a planet surrounded by weapons. I would be rather disappointed if they were completely ornamental...

Hellebore
This is why I always preferred the theory that the Thousand Companions were in fact the ultimate result of the Primarch/Space Marine programme; 1000 immortal, perfect guardians, each individually created by the Emperor. That would make them somewhere in ability and durability between a space Marine and one of the original twenty Primarchs, effectively making them a blend of Marine and Primarch, to the extent that they were used as the source of the Grey Knights' gene-seed.

MadDoc
02-11-2008, 22:29
That would make them somewhere in ability and durability between a space Marine and one of the original twenty Primarchs, effectively making them a blend of Marine and Primarch, to the extent that they were used as the source of the Grey Knights' gene-seed.

At the risk of further derailing my own thread, this completely fails to take into account the fact that its very strongly hinted in the background material related to the HH that the Loyalists from the Traitor Legions (Nathaniel Garro et al.) are the basis of the Grey Knights.

But again I don't want to derail my own thread by taking it off on a tangent, or delving to much into background discussion. Afterall, this is the Rules Development Forum.

Firaxin
03-11-2008, 01:36
I feel you're being alittle too liberal in your interpretations there, but that could just be me. I should point out that the Custodian Guard Squad presented is a basic/core Troop selection, meaning that the "basic" Custodes unit is much better than those of Marines or even GK.
I realize the rules you're suggesting for them are much hardcorer than regular marines. I'm still of the opinion that its not hardcore enough. Custodes were proto-primarchs. Closer in height, closer in reflexes, closer in mental ingenuity and loyalty to them than regular marines are. They do not age, unlike regular marines. They don't even have a geneseed (or if they do, it comes from the Emperor himself). It is through them that the Emperor learned enough to create the primarchs. Everything I've read about them suggests they are stronger and more resilient than normal marines.

Consequently, my rules for custodians will make them S/T5. You don't have to do the same, I'm just letting you know my opinion.



Marines are depicted in several places in the background as charging towards the enemy bolters blazing before smashing into them and tearing them apart in close combat. Are marine bolters Assault 2? Nope. Hmm, odd then that they should be depicted as being used the same way as you mention Guardian Spears being used. Guardian Spears have an integral bolter, it should therefore function as just that, a bolter.
Then make them regular bolters. I offered the counts as storm bolter rule to replace the hellfire rounds you've given them, which makes no sense to me.

One other question, why would they have auxillary grenade launchers or digital lasers?

MadDoc
03-11-2008, 02:59
I realize the rules you're suggesting for them are much hardcorer than regular marines. I'm still of the opinion that its not hardcore enough. Custodes were proto-primarchs. Closer in height, closer in reflexes, closer in mental ingenuity and loyalty to them than regular marines are. They do not age, unlike regular marines. They don't even have a geneseed (or if they do, it comes from the Emperor himself). It is through them that the Emperor learned enough to create the primarchs. Everything I've read about them suggests they are stronger and more resilient than normal marines.

Have you read the story about the Raising of Prospero? It provides a good comparative example of Marines versus Custodes (quiet literally in fact :p). They're good but they're not as hard as a Daemon Prince, thats just going alittle too far I feel.

In all honesty, I think a better way of representing how hard the Custodes are based on their portrayal in the background, would be to give them the Feel No Pain universal special rule. (Which I was considering as part of an army wide special rule anyway, possibly alongsie Eternal Warrior for characters. Although, I'm loathe to give anything even remotely mortal Eternal Warrior.)


Consequently, my rules for custodians will make them S/T5. You don't have to do the same, I'm just letting you know my opinion.

I took your comments as suggestions rather than as being purely informational. Which was why I offered the reasoning behind my design choice.


Then make them regular bolters. I offered the counts as storm bolter rule to replace the hellfire rounds you've given them, which makes no sense to me.

The hellfire rounds were perhaps too much. But I stand by the call that their Guardian Spear's bolter should be treated as a bolter.


One other question, why would they have auxillary grenade launchers or digital lasers?

The grenade launchers I was iffy about to begin with anyway, and I was already considering removing them (already had in fact). As to the digital weapons, the Custodes are the Elite, its not unthinkable that they'd have access to these and much more esoteric wargear. so I see no problem with having them as an option.

As an aside, I was initially considering giving the Custodes the Relentless universal special rule, to represent their skill and fire discipline. But I thought that'd be abit much, maybe not though. *shrug* Who knows...

Firaxin
03-11-2008, 21:17
Well its not like they have heavy weapons. Relentless with bolters is a fair combination IMHO.

Feel No Pain is an interesting idea. The only thing with that would be since they have primarily anti-infantry weapons (bolters in particular), plus feel no pain and low manueverability, would they play too similarly to a death guard force? I dunno, I'd have to see the rest of the army list and do some test battles.

MadDoc
03-11-2008, 22:56
Well its not like they have heavy weapons. Relentless with bolters is a fair combination IMHO.

The units are already insanely expensive (a basic 10 man squad at 510 points) so it'd would be too much of a stretch.


Feel No Pain is an interesting idea. The only thing with that would be since they have primarily anti-infantry weapons (bolters in particular), plus feel no pain and low manueverability, would they play too similarly to a death guard force?

In conjunction with the other units, I don't think they would, but as you say some playtesting is in order just to be sure.


I dunno, I'd have to see the rest of the army list and do some test battles.

There's also the Custodian Terminators (storm bolter & power fist, teleporting, all of whom can upgrade to Incinerator equivalent fire lances (pricey though to balance how insanely good the upgrade is)), Custodian Knight squads (shield and lance wielding jetbikes). The Terminators add a different dynamic, and the jetbikes add some maneuverability.

I was also considering giving the whole army Deep Strike to represent Teleporter deployment (the Custodes had access to some of the best tech (including advanced Teleporter arrays) available to the Imperium thanks to their poistion as the Emperor's Praetorian guard). But I'm not sure if this would be abit too much, or not. :confused:

Firaxin
03-11-2008, 23:19
The units are already insanely expensive (a basic 10 man squad at 510 points) so it'd would be too much of a stretch.
Well, it is apocalypse...

Actually I think you could give them relentless and keep the same price.


Incinerator
As in the invul-ignoring flame thrower? Interesting...


jetbikes add some maneuverability.
Very true.



I was also considering giving the whole army Deep Strike to represent Teleporter deployment (the Custodes had access to some of the best tech (including advanced Teleporter arrays) available to the Imperium thanks to their poistion as the Emperor's Praetorian guard). But I'm not sure if this would be abit too much, or not. :confused:
Well daemons can do it... keep in mind it would drive costs up 1 or 2pts per model.
What about something similar to grey knights? Regular doodz can deep strike for free but they become fast attack choices.

MadDoc
03-11-2008, 23:49
Well, it is apocalypse...

Actually, this is for Standard 40k, Apocalypse as well, but...


Actually I think you could give them relentless and keep the same price.

That was the plan...


As in the invul-ignoring flame thrower? Interesting...

Thats the ones, the fire lances look very nasty and very ornate, I could also very easily see the Custodes using "sanctified" (although due to the secular nature of the Imperium of the time it wouldn't be referred to as such) promethium in these badboys.


Very true.

Also very cool looking. Gotta love those Bullock Jetcycles. :D


Well daemons can do it... keep in mind it would drive costs up 1 or 2pts per model.

My only concern is that the only thing which begins to differentiate the Terminators is their armament...


What about something similar to grey knights? Regular doodz can deep strike for free but they become fast attack choices.

This is the idea I was leaning towards. Simple, doesn't overcomplicate things and still maintains a clear distinction between Terminators and Custodian squads (beyond armament).

Firaxin
04-11-2008, 00:24
Still think relentless for free wouldn't be too OTT. It's better than hellfire rounds.



Thats the ones, the fire lances look very nasty and very ornate, I could also very easily see the Custodes using "sanctified" (although due to the secular nature of the Imperium of the time it wouldn't be referred to as such) promethium in these badboys.
I still think you might want to check out the eldar star lance idea. I know the post-heresy custodes lances are laser based weapons, so I'm going to assume the pre-heresy lances were too.



Also very cool looking. Gotta love those Bullock Jetcycles. :D
;)



My only concern is that the only thing which begins to differentiate the Terminators is their armament...
I suppose to represent their awesome-osity, you could give the terminators a buffed stat, like WS5 or something, or else a mild special rule (can't think of one atm).



This is the idea I was leaning towards. Simple, doesn't overcomplicate things and still maintains a clear distinction between Terminators and Custodian squads (beyond armament).
Good then. :cool:

MadDoc
04-11-2008, 07:13
Still think relentless for free wouldn't be too OTT. It's better than hellfire rounds.

Thats what I said, wasn't it? :confused:


I still think you might want to check out the eldar star lance idea. I know the post-heresy custodes lances are laser based weapons, so I'm going to assume the pre-heresy lances were too.

Aquila Terminators (http://www.geocities.com/mcbuff.geo/Aquilaterm.jpg)

Umm, perhaps I wasn't very clear, I meant the fire lances (not sure of their proper name, fire pikes maybe?), the ones wielded by the Aquila Terminators in the above (also attached below) picture.


I suppose to represent their awesome-osity, you could give the terminators a buffed stat, like WS5 or something, or else a mild special rule (can't think of one atm).

I was thinking WS 5 anyway, so I probably should have factored that into my assessment. Whoops. :o


Good then. :cool:

But of course... :evilgrin:

Hellebore
04-11-2008, 08:35
The statline I was going to give Custodes when I was thinking of representing them in modern games was:

WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W2 I4 A2 Ld10 Sv2+

With squad leaders at:

WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W3 I5 A3 Ld10 Sv2+

And the HQ


WS6 BS6 S4 T4 W4 I5 A4 Ld10 Sv2+

Hellebore

Firaxin
04-11-2008, 16:44
Aquila Terminators (http://www.geocities.com/mcbuff.geo/Aquilaterm.jpg)


Oooooooh.

Incinerators are good then.

MadDoc
07-11-2008, 06:40
Oooooooh.

Incinerators are good then.

Yea, those bad boys...

I'm thinking perhaps fire pikes might be a better name? Or maybe Imperator pattern Heavy Flamers? Until we hear an official name its alittle hard to know what to call them... :(

Anyway...



.........................Range....Strength....AP.. ..Type
Fire lance.........Template.........5...........4...... Assault 1, Ignores Invulnerable Saves

Note: Counts as a power weapon in close combat


For the Terminators I'm thinking...




CUSTODIAN TERMINATOR SQUAD............................??? points

................................WS..BS..S...T...W. ..I...A...Ld...Sv
Sentinal.......................5....5...4...4....2 ....4...3...10...2+
Terminator...................5....4...4...4....1.. ..4...3...10...2+

Unit Composition:
1 Sentinal
2 Terminators
Unit Type:

Infantry
Special Rules:

Fearless

Wargear:

Terminator armour
Fire lance

Options:

May include up to two additional Terminators for +?? points per model.
The Sentinal may take:
- digital lasers for +10 points.
Any model may replace its fire lance with a twin-linked bolter and Eagle's talon (Rending power fist) for +20 points.


Well?

Firaxin
08-11-2008, 03:18
The Fire Lance rules look fine (as is calling them lances... IIRC the chinese invented a weapon called the firelance which was basically a spear with a tube full of gunpowder strapped near the point. Not sure how it worked, but when they thrust the gunpowder would fly out and ignite, like a flamethrower with a range of as far as someone might throw sand).

Maybe it's just me but the upgrade to powerfist/stormbolter feels a little lame.
Clearly they would have storm bolters (or twin-linked bolters, actually, seeing as that's what chaos termies have) as this picture implies:
http://www.adriansmith.co.uk/sales/large/c_as_2081.html

But this picture:
http://www.adriansmith.co.uk/sales/large/c_as_2071.html
seems to show them as weilding some type of power/lightning claw. So perhaps an upgrade to twin-linked bolter and a lightning claw with snazzy new rules?

MadDoc
08-11-2008, 12:20
The Fire Lance rules look fine (as is calling them lances... IIRC the chinese invented a weapon called the firelance which was basically a spear with a tube full of gunpowder strapped near the point. Not sure how it worked, but when they thrust the gunpowder would fly out and ignite, like a flamethrower with a range of as far as someone might throw sand).

Yep, the fire spear/fire lance 火枪 (huǒ qiāng).

Actually, if I'm totally honest, I think thats probably where the name came from. Somewhere in the deep, dark recesses of my memory. :D


Maybe it's just me but the upgrade to powerfist/stormbolter feels a little lame.

Really? Its the standard boarding action configuration for Terminators. Perhaps a slight tweak (see below).


Clearly they would have storm bolters (or twin-linked bolters, actually, seeing as that's what chaos termies have) as this picture implies:
http://www.adriansmith.co.uk/sales/large/c_as_2081.html

Well to be honest if anybody is gonna have storm bolters (or as near as) back then, then it'd be the Custodes.


But this picture:
http://www.adriansmith.co.uk/sales/large/c_as_2071.html
seems to show them as weilding some type of power/lightning claw. So perhaps an upgrade to twin-linked bolter and a lightning claw with snazzy new rules?

I'd prefer to stick with Storm bolters, access to the lastest developments further emphasizes how special the Custodians are. Although there's nothing wrong with combi-bolters (twin-linked bolters).

Gotta say, don't you just love those vertically stacked storm bolters they've got? :D

As for the power fists in the above picture, I'm familiar with the pic and my read of it has always been that their power fists are simply stylised like the rest of their weapons, with an eagle motif, and so the fingers are styled as talons (just like the big E's power fist, only less so than his). Perhaps call them Eagle talons and make them Rending power fists?

Firaxin
09-11-2008, 23:05
Ha. Rending powerfists... In that case why not make them counts-as chainfists? They're only 5pts more for regular terminators anyways...

Well, if you don't like that then Rending powerfists are fine.

MadDoc
11-11-2008, 08:13
Ha. Rending powerfists... In that case why not make them counts-as chainfists? They're only 5pts more for regular terminators anyways...

Well, if you don't like that then Rending powerfists are fine.

I think chainfists might be somewhat OTT. I feel Rending adds a nice bonus without being OTT (borderline perhaps).

Anybody have any ideas for rules for the laser lances of the Mounted Knights?

crandall87
11-11-2008, 15:54
I was thinking that maybe the Knight Gladius should count as a relic blade with a built in bolter.

Firaxin
11-11-2008, 21:20
Anybody have any ideas for rules for the laser lances of the Mounted Knights?
Eldar Star Lances. Pg 37 of the Eldar codex. Not their laser lance, the exarch star lance.

MadDoc
11-11-2008, 22:57
I was thinking that maybe the Knight Gladius should count as a relic blade with a built in bolter.

Um, why? They're short powered blades. The Guardian Spear makes sense as a Relic blade, they're halberds after all. But the Gladius? They're short broad blades not really Relic blade material.

Some pictures are attached below to illustrate the differences. Plus a bonus image of a Custodes Tactical squad. :D

The attachments are as follows:
-Foot Knights (w/ Knight Gladii and Shields)
-Custodian Guard (w/ Guardian Spears)
-more Custodian Guard (w/ Guardian Spears)
-Adeptus Custodes Tactical squad

MadDoc
12-11-2008, 10:22
Eldar Star Lances. Pg 37 of the Eldar codex. Not their laser lance, the exarch star lance.

Really? This...



.........................Range....Strength....AP.. ..Type
Laser lance.............6".............8...........4......Assault 1, Lance

Note: Models armed with a laser lance count as being armed with a Strength 8 power weapon on any turn in which they charge into close combat


A unit full of Strength 8, Initiative 4 power weapons on the charge (3 Attacks with charge bonus), isn't that abit much even for Custodian Guard?

I'm not too sure, but its late and I'm tired, so I'll sleep on it for now...

Firaxin
13-11-2008, 16:43
isn't that abit much even for Custodian Guard?
Never! ;):angel:

MadDoc
14-11-2008, 04:23
Never! ;):angel:

:evilgrin:

So mounted knights...




CUSTODIAN MOUNTED KNIGHT SQUAD........................??? points

................................WS..BS..S...T...W. ..I...A...Ld...Sv
Centurion...................5....5...4..4(5)..2... .4...3...10...3+
Mounted Knight...........4....4...4..4(5)..1....4...2...10 ...3+

Unit Composition:
1 Centurion
2 Knights
Unit Type:

Infantry
Special Rules:

Fearless
Skilled Riders

Wargear:

Power armour
Las lance
Storm shield
Bullock jetcycle (with twin-linked bolters)

Options:

May include up to two additional Mounted Knights for +?? points per model.
The Centurion may take:
- digital lasers for +10 points.


Exceedingly rushed job, but I'm hungry and need to eat. :D

quelbane
09-01-2009, 13:01
Here are the rules my gaming group came up with for them:

Adeptus Custodes Squad: Apocalypse Battles ONLY. If you have 3+ squads of Custodes, a single Captain may lead them. A single standard Custodes model may be used as a 2nd HQ choice in non-Apoc. battles provided he takes no upgrades.

Number/Squad: 1 Centurion, 2-9 Custodes

350pts Captain: WS 7, BS 7 S 5(7), T 5, W 4, I 7, Ld 10, Sv 2+/3+
250pts Centurion: WS 6, BS 6, S 5(7), T 5, W 3, I 6, Ld 10, Sv 2+/3+
200pts Custodes: WS 5, BS 5, S 5(7), T 5, W 2, I 5, Ld 10, Sv 2+/4+

Wargear: Artificer Armor, Custodes Halberd, Storm Shield (3+), Power Gladius, Sacred Incense, Frag Grenades. The Custodes Halberd is a two-handed, +2 Strength power weapon with a bolter attached. The bolter fires special ammo providing AP 3 and Rending. The Power Gladius is a one handed power weapon (only useful if the model trades his halberd)

Options: The Centurion may trade his Storm Shield for a Power Fist for free. He may buy a plasma pistol for +20 pts. If the squad numbers at least four models then one Custodes may trade his halberd and storm shield for either a multimelta or lascannon for free. If the squad numbers at least five, then one other Custodes may trade his Storm Shield for a Power Fist for free, in order to bear a Banner of Terra for +175 pts.

Banner of Terra: One Custodes may be chosen to bear a sacred banner from the Eternity Gate of the Imperial Palace on Terra. This has has the same effect as the Crusade Banner strategic asset - friendly models within 24" and line of sight are Fearless. Also, one turn per game the standard bearer can call upon all those who serve the Emperor to redouble the fight, bellowing out mighty battle cries while thrusting the Banner aloft. All friendly models within 24" and line of sight have +1 Attack. This may be performed in the enemy's turn if you wish. The banner pole is made of the finest metalwork, and may be held in a Custodes power fist (and swung!) in exception to the normal rules.

Special Rules: Eternal Warrior, Fearless, Relentless, Furious Charge, Counter-Attack, Feel No Pain, Nimbus of Purity, Emperor's Grace, Pinnacle of Creation, Dread Guardians, The Truest Bladeand Unflinching Gaze.

Eternal Warrior: immune to Instant Death. A new USR for 5th Edition.

Relentless: models counts as stationary for the purposes of firing, and may charge normally in the assault phase (Slow and Purposeful without the Slow part). A new USR for 5th edition.

Nimbus of Purity: immune to any and all psychic powers and effects of psychic powers.

Emperor's Grace: the Adeptus Custodes shine with the light of the Emperor's chosen. Any army including them benefits from The Emperor's Tarot (DH Codex). They have a benevolent aura affording them a 4+ Invulnerable Save. Any unit including any Custodes is Fearless.

Pinnacle Of Creation: created by a longer, more arduous, and ultimately superior genetic program than the Adeptus Astartes, a single Custodes is a match for a squad of veteran Marines and as symbolically important as a flagship of the Imperial Navy. As befits these most important of Imperial organizations, they are equipped with the best wargear the Imperium can produce. ALL weapons wielded by the Adeptus Custodes are master-crafted, including their upgrade weapons.

Dread Guardians: The Adeptus Custodes are the most formidable defensive formation in the whole Imperium. To face them is to invite the surest death. Non-Fearless enemies within 6" of a single Custodes suffer -1 Ld and -1 Attack. If a squad of Custodes are fielded the range of this effect is 12". Custodes are adept at forming superior formations for each engagement. They may add 1" to their Consolidate dice role, and may choose to re-roll it.

The Truest Blade: Centurions in the Adeptus Custodes function as squad leaders in much the same way that Justicars do for the Grey Knights. As such, they have considerably more experience than even their "normal" Custodes brothers, resulting in phenomenal feats of martial skill. All close combat attacks by a Centurion rank or higher count as Dire.

The Watchful Gaze: A Captain of the Custodes is a warrior so steeped in his trade that only supernatural enemies even have a chance of surprising him on the fireld of battle. All friendly Imperial forces benefit from Combat Tactics. His formidable perception of the enemies weakness grants his close combet attacts Rending.