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Grendrill
30-10-2008, 08:49
I was just searching through the GW Australian site and i found a heap of stuff on the 'Lost and the Damned' and they look pretty interesting to me, namely because I love Chaos and I just want to do something with the Imperial Guard.

I already collecting Space Marines and I thought Lost and the Damned would be a little side project to work on when I get sick of painting UM.

Point of this is to get views on the LATD and see weather it would be worth doing anything with or just go straight Chaos.

http://www.games-workshop.com.au/games/40k/chaosspacemarines/gaming/lostandthedamned/default.htm

T_55
30-10-2008, 08:57
There will be issues with rules and legality on occasion, but the theme and character will be great fun. You can even have great themed games with these guys. What do you plan to do though? Have any ideas currently on the force?

Grendrill
30-10-2008, 09:00
Not particulary, I've looked through the PDF I down loaded and liked the look of combining Chaos and IG. As for putting together a force I don't really know where to start with them.

Suggestions are always welcome :P

Mato Noupa
09-11-2008, 22:16
Hi guys

I've been away from the hobby for a while but is this army list still valid?
I thought the whole codex Eye of Terror is not usable anymore.

IF I'm right:
LatD players what have you done with your armies?
What rules do you use.

IF I'm wrong:
...well that would be tooo good, wouldn't it. :)

Cheers
Mato Noupa

AmKhaibitu
09-11-2008, 22:45
As a latd player what I did was stash my mutants away as they're not exactly useful any more, which sucks as I had a nice boss conversion :(

Victomorga
09-11-2008, 23:03
as has been mentioned, there is no legal list for LatD at the moment, and I don't think GW has any plans on writing one.

I would say your best option is to use IG rules. you could use mutant models with ogryn rules, take a lot of psykers, and model your commissars / commanding officers as chaos priests.

or you could use the WH codex, but I think they have a weaker rule set.

devik
09-11-2008, 23:47
as has been mentioned, there is no legal list for LatD at the moment, and I don't think GW has any plans on writing one.

I would say your best option is to use IG rules. you could use mutant models with ogryn rules, take a lot of psykers, and model your commissars / commanding officers as chaos priests.

or you could use the WH codex, but I think they have a weaker rule set.

That would be my recommendation as well.

My IG army that I'm building is a "separatist" army, a small cluster of worlds on the fringes of the imperium that have been all but forgotten -- and who have forgotten most of the Imperial dogma about technological stagnation and all that. They're supposed to have marginally better gear than most of the IG armies of the Imperium, but so far I've just been using the IG 'dex as the rules.

MrGiggles
10-11-2008, 01:16
I actually just took a look at the Canadian HoH site. They still list at least some of the Eye of Terror lists (including LatD) as being tourney legal. I'm not sure where that leaves the list for other countries though. I suppose the other thing to mention is that the list I saw was fairly out of date in terms of the Chaos book and the upcoming Guard Book. If you wanted to use all of the units to their fullest, you'll be needing the LatD list, the CSM book, the Guard book and possibly the old CSM book as well. Not really a reason to avoid the army, but definitely something to keep in mind. Book-wise, the folks who are suggesting a 'counts as' IG list definitely have a good idea since that drops you to a single book and gives you a more up to date army list to follow.

ShadowDeth
10-11-2008, 07:38
Not particulary, I've looked through the PDF I down loaded and liked the look of combining Chaos and IG. As for putting together a force I don't really know where to start with them.

Suggestions are always welcome :P

Foreword------------------------

Hi Grendrill. As a longtime LatD player, and one who still currently uses the list I have some advice to give.

Absolutely go for them. They aren't tourney legal, but I don't play them. If you don't want to or have other armies, then no issue right?

At that point it comes down to whether or not you think people will accept your list and agree to play against you in a casual setting. I haven't had any problems finding opponents (especially amongst ones I used the list against before when it was "legal"). The most I've had said to me "Isn't that illegal now?" My response is usually "The army got worse with the new chaos dex and it never was a powerhouse to begin with."


Legality------------------------------------
Now all that aside, here is how the list functions.

You use the ally rules, in conjunction with your listed units. You can ally 0-1 HQ, 0-1 Elite, 0-2 Troops and 0-1 Fast attack from the current Chaos Codex.

That means

HQ - Daemon Prince, Chaos Lord or Sorcerer (the intent of the "Arch Heretic" in 4th edition)

Elite - Chosen, Possessed, Dreadnought, Terminators, "Marked" marines, in 5th edition meaning Berserkers, Plague Marines, Noise Marines and Thousand Sons.

Troop - Unmarked, or Chaos Undivided Chaos Marines.

Fast attack - Raptors, Chaos Bikers.

The most reasonable way I've found to get your outdated army list played against is follow current rules. If you follow the new Chaos book in conjunction with the LatD army list, you find most everything still works.

Grey areas

You lose a few things, and a few others change.

The Aspiring Chaos Champion entry for your HQ references a bunch of stuff from the old book. Use the entries for aspiring champions from the normal entries : Skull Champ, Sorcerer, Plague Champ, Noise Champ, Normal Aspiring champion etc. That's a clean fix to the rules about their solo marks and is in line with 5th edition.

Fast attack references "Daemonic Beasts" that don't exist anymore. Forget about the entry.

5th(4th) edition Chaos says daemons are troop choices but don't count against the FoC. It's reasonable to play them like they were written in the LatD list, taking up elite slots.

Chaos Spawn received a new entry in the current Chaos book. I ignore it and use the Heavy Support one in the army list.

Mutants reference marks, but are unchanged. All their options are still present.

Traitor guard are, like mutants, a self contained entity and can play largely without referencing the guard book or chaos one. They are fine the way they are.

Some entries say things like "Agitators and Mutant bosses can take 15 points worth of stuff from the Chaos/Guard armory". Armories don't exist anymore, and I find it's easy to reference wargear from basic troop entries that the Champions/Sgt's would have access to.

Advice-----------------------------------

The LatD play like Chaos "lite", in the sense that they have downgraded options for most normal chaos options, loss of unit selections but gain unique entries that allow them to play vastly different from normal Chaos. The backbone of the army is either traitor guard or mutants. I personally prefer to play mutant heavy lists with aspiring champions attached to them to give them Ld10, and essentially play my army like a horde army.

You can do things like take two allied space marine units, an allied elite unit, allied Daemon prince, allied raptors etc and "look" like a normal chaos army but to get the most out of the army I would approach them from the viewpoint of "renegade/cult forces with light Chaos influences leading them". That's the fluff behind the army anyways, and I think it's fairly well represented in the army list.

In closing, I find the army list to be very satisfying to play with and to create from a modeling perspective. In my past experience (prior to 5th edition) I found them to be very balanced and hard to break. In my current experience in 5th edition, I've found they've gotten weaker from losses in unit choices, and the overall downgrade in power in the parent Chaos Codex. I've only ever had one complaint about the army, past and present, and it was from an Ork player who was angry at the fact mutants were better troop choices than Orks. Since the new Ork dex came out, I haven't heard that complaint.

Hope that helped, and I apologize if I wrote more than you wanted to read. :) This is just my favorite army so I have a lot to say about it.

Mato Noupa
10-11-2008, 13:47
Very nice post indeed!

Wonderful to see that there are guys out there who don't just let the list die.

Gave me the idea to build my army around the old 'dex to play with friends. My guys wouldn't mind but I never thought of it that way.

I used the LatD list to represent my Adeptus Mechanicus army as it is the rules set that fits the models most. I'm one of the guys who think of a theme and models first and then look for a rules set to represent those models on the board.

For tourneys I'll probably use IG rules and have my Knight Paladins be Leman Russes instead of Defilers. :angel:

Cheers,
Mato Noupa

St.Germaine
10-11-2008, 17:43
I have to agree with ShadowDeth's initial comments. I had been in the process of gathering the minis I wanted to use to do a LatD army when the new Chaos dex effectively made this list defunct. The idea went on the shelf but this thread keeps popping up on numerous forums. What finally was said and is worth repeating is that GW has never (to the best of my knowledge) officially stated that this codex is Dead. Several tourneys have not included it on their list of accepted codices (apparently Canada still includes it) and some people take this as a statement on GW's part as to the current viability of the codex. I tend to disagree with this assessment. I don't play at tourneys so the only important thing is to determine if your local group feels the same way. Then you need to determine which Chaos dex to use. Once again this is dependent upon your local group. It was written to be balanced with the older codex but some people may be bothered by using the old codex. As GW hasn't updated this dex to reflect the changes in Codex: Chaos, you're left to this make the corrections yourself or use one of several attempts at this process that have been posted on various forums, also assuming that your local group buys in.

ShadowDeth
10-11-2008, 21:11
I also agree with what St.Germaine has to say about the army, in retrospect? (A little weird because he's agreeing with me...)

I view LatD like anything that isn't "officially supported" anymore. It's up to you, and your opponents to decide if it's balanced. If everyone is in agreement, there is no issue with the army because it even has the stamp of "official" and theoretically balanced up until 5th edition. Hell, I've even gotten people to play against the Citadel Journal Harlequins because the average person likes to see something different across the table from them.

My personal stance on using the 5th edition Chaos Book is because people are familiar with it, are more willing to agree it's better balanced against the 3rd edition Chaos Book that left a sour taste in most people's mouths.

I'm prepared to take the good with the bad (mostly bad, I can't mutate my defilers anymore and I can't have furies in my fast attack), but such is life.

jfjnpxmy
10-11-2008, 21:57
I never got why GW doesn't pimp the holy Hell out of Lost and the Damned. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the army has, like, zero official models, being mostly made up of rags and tags from other armies and stuff you have to make out of other GW stuff. Which basically means that if only 60 people worldwide played LaTD, it'd still be all profit, since they'd be buying stuff GW was producing anyway. And really, how difficult can it be to whip up a codex for "Everything in this army sucks and is fodder exceeeept....this dude"?

Furthermore, it seems to attract modding-crazy crazy modders, who, when they make weird **** of sufficient coolness, draw in new hobbyists and make existing hobbyists have to spend more money when they destroy their own stuff trying to mod. Therefore, LaTD rules, and GW drools.

AmKhaibitu
10-11-2008, 22:26
The problem with LatD is that they have no official models, and thus there is no actual way for GW to keep track of them.

However if they were to release things such as an Arch Heretic model or some other dedicated items, then problem solved as they get to see what popularity there it.
Of course it would have to be a good one and not a metal possessed quality.

Misanthrope
10-11-2008, 23:54
LatD is one of my favorite GW initiatives. IMO they are the most characterful army out there, which in part has do to with the very fact that they have no model representation whatsoever -- leaving everything about them up to the imagination.

I really hope they bring LatD back, or atleast update the army list for 5th edition.

Devil Tree
11-11-2008, 01:09
Itís a shame GW didnít support LatD. I agree itís probably the most characterful army out there. Not only that, but theyíre the most common form of chaos army too. So instead of filling the Chaos background, GW decides to go and focus all their energy on yet another marine army.

If GW really wanted to find out how many LatD armies are being sold, then all they have to do is use statistic from their tournaments or circulate a questionnaire. I often find GW Ďs business practices incomprehensible. A LanD army would be pure gravy, a decent profit for little to no investment.

Eater of Small Things
11-11-2008, 03:23
Thanks for the info, ShadowDeth. You've inspired me to dust off my Lost and the Damned army and have another go at it.

How do you folks feel about the gradual replacement of LatD with the Vraks Renegades and Khorne-flavored IA6 list? While I'm grateful that Forgeworld has taken interest in non--power-armored traitors, these new renegade lists feel very timid to me.

Playa
11-11-2008, 04:38
Hey,


How do you folks feel about the gradual replacement of LatD with the Vraks Renegades

It sucks. Any waterhead can directly transplant IG Codex rules. I did. :- P
Besides, FW rules are no more "legal" in 40k than EoT rules . . .
What made EoT rule was the prototype Allies rules in LatD.

Other units made it into their own Codexes (c'mon Wulfen!).
But, LatD was brilliant in that it sold armies to very unlikely candidates -
People that already had armies!

Trivia question:
Q. What do WH, DH and LatD have in common?


these new renegade lists feel very timid to me

The worst part is that these "free-thinking rebels" are bound by IG doctrine.
And look at the LatD Apocalypse datasheet; it's a bad joke -

Att'n GW: Rebel PDF guys *start out* as basic, six point IG infantrymen.
Either they get worse, and cheaper; or better and more expensive.
If they got worse *and* more expensive, you just messed up.

Hint: One sells models by making them *attractive* unit choices.

For some reason, in a 3000pt match, Allied CSM and IG are perfectly okay.
Not just a few units - the whole damn Codex, special rules and all.
But at 2,500 points, this is suddenly "not legal".

It comes down to opponents;
Either they'll let you use IG units, or not. You can't force them.
FWIW, here's what I show opponents when I ask -
(This entire LatD "Codex" fits on a single sheet to slip under AD-DAR):

+++

5th Ed Codex: LatD

Special Rules: d3 Strategy Rating; Sentries use Units of 10 Rebels;
Sergeants may not be Vessels; Vehicles may only take Upgrades from
their parent Codex; Allied Units may not be taken as compulsory FOC
choices; Cult Allies = Elites; Greater/Lesser Daemon Units *do* use a
Chart slot.

HQ
0-2 Lord or Sorc, 0-1 Greater Daemon, 0-1 Champ Coven, 0-1 CSM HQ Ally -
Ally, Lord, Sorcerer and GD per Chaos Codex. Champions =
Number/Squad: 2-6 CSM Champions as a single HQ choice.
Champs must be attached to squads of Rebels prior to Deployment.

Coven Champion Costs -
Undivided (Glory): 30 Points.
Noise Champion: 35 Points.
Skull Champion: 36 Points.
Plague Champion: 38 Points.
Sorcerer: 60 Points (Includes Doombolt).

All HQ Units follow their corresponding Codex entries
for Wargear, Character upgrades and Special Rules.

EL
0-3 Possessed, 0-3 Lesser Daemons, 0-3 Mutants, 0-1 CSM Elite ally -
Ally, Possessed and LDs per Chaos Codex. Mutants =
25pt 4 2 6 4 3 3 2 7 5+ 3-10 per Unit w/ ccw only, but 0-2 per
Unit may take 6pt Flameguns. All may be upgraded to Nurglesque
(4+Sv but at -1I) for +5ppm.

TR
2-6 Rebel Guard Units, 0-2 Chaos Marine Allies -
Allies per Chaos Codex. Rebel = 6pt 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7 5+
10-30 per Unit w/ Frag, Pistol&CCW, or Frag&Lasgun @+1ppm;
add Krak @1ppm; Nurglesque (4+Sv@-1I) for +2ppm; 0-3 Personal
Icon Bearers @+3pts ea; 0-2 Flamegun @+3pts ea; 0-1 A2 Ld9 Sgt
per Unit @+10pt with up to 25pts of Wargear/ Officer-only Wargear
from Codex: IG.

FA
0-3 LatD Hounds, 0-1 CSM FA ally, 0-1 IG FA Ally -
Allies per parent Codices. LatD Hounds = 10pt 4 0 4 4 1 4 2 8 6+
2-10 per Unit. Move as Cavalry.

HS
0-3 Defiler, 0-3 Basilisk, 0-3 LatD Spawn Pack, 0-1 IG Ally -
Ally and Basilisk per IG Codex. Defiler per Chaos Codex. LatD Spawn =
20pt 3 0 5 5 2 3 d6 9 3+
1-3 per Unit. d6 S5 Attacks per Assault Phase; Fearless; Dim: Moves
vs Ld test at start of every turn. If failed, may not Move or Assault.

+++

Trivia answer:
A. All came out in 2003 attempting to sell new armies to current payers.
Note - Two out of three lists are still profitable and legal. What happened?

HTH


Playa

olmsted
11-11-2008, 05:32
legality is a wrong word. they may not be allowed in tournaments however no one can tell you that you cant play an army. as long as your gaming group says sure no prob then your good

ive played nothing but 13th company since 5th came out even took them to hubcon and destroyed 2 opponents, however got my **** handed to me by abbadon with a land raider and the lash Waac list

Sceleris
11-11-2008, 09:02
Still use the LatD rules for friendly games. For slightly more competative games Adepticon did a reasonable update list, which is pretty much on the lines that ShadowDeath mentioned above. For tournies run IG (mutants as conscripts, big mutants as orgyn) with WH & DH allies

alphastealer
11-11-2008, 10:08
I don't get what is so appealing about the LatD? They don't even have a valid codex or ruleset to work off, so why are guys so keen to keep playing them? Souldn't they just stay lost and damned? Like the genestealer cult.

TimLeeson
11-11-2008, 10:20
I don't get what is so appealing about the LatD? They don't even have a valid codex or ruleset to work off, so why are guys so keen to keep playing them? Souldn't they just stay lost and damned? Like the genestealer cult.

I'd assume/guess its because people seem to love the idea of fielding armies of traitor guard, mutants and zombie hordes - zombies are very popular too. The forge world traitor miniatures are quite appealing too, so that may encourage them. Personally I find chaos aliens more exciting..but each to their own.

Supremearchmarshal
11-11-2008, 11:28
I don't get what is so appealing about the LatD? They don't even have a valid codex or ruleset to work off, so why are guys so keen to keep playing them? Souldn't they just stay lost and damned? Like the genestealer cult.

As TimLeeson said - there's was a lot of stuff in that army: Traitor Guard, Mutants, lone Champions, Chaos Hounds, Zombies, Daemons etc.

Some people simply want to play Chaos humans. Not Daemons, not Marines, just "plain" humans. Some want a massive horde of mutants and zombies. Some want a Blood Pact army. Some want a mix of all these elements. LatD offers all this.

Another reason is the modeling: LatD do not have a dedicated model range and offer you great freedom in choosing what models you want, and converting and painting them.

Finally, some people put weeks or months of work into their army, only to have it declared illegal. How would you feel if your favourite army got axed?

Devil Tree
11-11-2008, 11:29
In the fluff, traitors and mutants are the most common Chaos army youíll likely face. Yes there are Chaos Marines looking to cause trouble, but there arenít nearly as many of them.

From a personal perspective, not everyone wants to play the unstoppable invincible superhumans that always save/ruin the day. Thatís why I play IG and yawn at the though at playing SMís.

On a side note, making your own armies is fun. Right now Iím converting an evil Hrud army based off Chaos Demons.

Llawwehttam
11-11-2008, 15:03
Doesn't imperial armour have rules for latd, If not correct me but im sure i saw somthing about them.
there are some interesting bits and pieces on http://www.tauonline.org/Article/101/TheLostandtheDamned/

I hope gw bring out a latd codex cos that would be fuuuuuuuuuuunn

TimLeeson
11-11-2008, 16:53
As TimLeeson said - there's was a lot of stuff in that army: Traitor Guard, Mutants, lone Champions, Chaos Hounds, Zombies, Daemons etc.

Some people simply want to play Chaos humans. Not Daemons, not Marines, just "plain" humans. Some want a massive horde of mutants and zombies. Some want a Blood Pact army. Some want a mix of all these elements. LatD offers all this.

Another reason is the modeling: LatD do not have a dedicated model range and offer you great freedom in choosing what models you want, and converting and painting them.

Finally, some people put weeks or months of work into their army, only to have it declared illegal. How would you feel if your favourite army got axed?

To be fair, while I dont care for the army myself - I do think they should be supported because there does seem to be alot of people who like them, and whats more it offers alot of conversion potential which I fully approve of. Hell, some people I know have even gone as far as sculpting and casting their own units, check out IceSword's work for example - amazing stuff.



Right now Iím converting an evil Hrud army based off Chaos Demons.

I'd love to see that! You should post it on here too ; http://flyingpolyp.proboards83.com/index.cgi

tinfoil
11-11-2008, 17:53
Doesn't imperial armour have rules for latd, If not correct me but im sure i saw somthing about them.
Indeed, IA 5 and IA 6 both have "renegade" army lists, with a fiew unique enteries (e.g., beastmen in IA 6), and (fairly tightly restricted) provisions for chaos space marine allies.
But the lists are pretty weak, and end up playing like corrupted guard with (say) a marine squad joining the fun. (Not surprising, considering how careful and over-compensating the FW folks get when it comes to adding list possibilities to 40k -- making each new thing cost a bit more in points than it really should.)
The FW lists have nothing like the character the LatD lists had in the Eye of Terror codex.

Supremearchmarshal
11-11-2008, 19:27
To be fair, while I dont care for the army myself - I do think they should be supported because there does seem to be alot of people who like them, and whats more it offers alot of conversion potential which I fully approve of. Hell, some people I know have even gone as far as sculpting and casting their own units, check out IceSword's work for example - amazing stuff.

Well thanks for being understanding. :)

IMO, if an army gets rules and catches on, it should stay supported, especially if - like you mentioned - offers many options for conversions and stuff. (bring back the Genestealer cult!)

And IceSword's work is indeed awesome, thanks for bringing it to my attention!

TimLeeson
11-11-2008, 19:46
Well thanks for being understanding. :)

IMO, if an army gets rules and catches on, it should stay supported, especially if - like you mentioned - offers many options for conversions and stuff. (bring back the Genestealer cult!)

And IceSword's work is indeed awesome, thanks for bringing it to my attention!

Thanks, I feel It's important to be objective with things. Personal Bias never does any good - I think Latd fans should not be so harsh on the daemon codex though, as it dettered me a bit before in sticking up for them, especially after I wrote a letter to GW to ask for support for latd (this isnt aimed at anyone in this thread, just a general thought from what iv observed on warseer over the past year).

As far as im concerned though, all the armies of 40k have their place. I may not like all of them but I think they all in general add something unique and expand the diversity of the game and mythos. Everyone should be able to play the army they want to play.

And yes, I think if they catch on and have a fanbase it should stay supported definitly. I'd like to see space dwarfs back especially, even if they are a just an imperial guard regiment - plenty of people still seem to love them. Genestealer cults are cool, they wouldnt really need many models either just a magus and hybrids id imagine - they should add them to the next Nid codex for extra flavour.

and back to LatD. I can see the appeal in playing the real underdogs and scum of 40k, and I think LatD does exactly that with the mutants, zombies and traitor guard. They dont really have that "uber powerful" feel the majority of other armies have, instead they come across as poorly put together armies of the lowest of the low, trying to survive in a cruel galaxy, trying their hardest to please their uncarring gods. Yep, that has a unique flavour and alot of potential. IG are probably second most popular army to Marines too, so id of thought evil guard with zombies would be something that would be quite the money maker for games workshop.... I often feel GW should seek the help of BSI (british standards institution). My dad works for them and has helped countless companies get their act together and improve overall to make more profit.

dal9ll
11-11-2008, 22:45
As a latd player what I did was stash my mutants away as they're not exactly useful any more, which sucks as I had a nice boss conversion :(

I completely disagree. Theyre not just weaker Guardsmen. They can take Marks of Chaos, and they have INFILTRATE!! And at only 3 points a piece, you can get a lot done with these little freaks.

Take a look at this example unit:
15 Mutants w/ laspistols, Mark of Khorne, 1 Flamer
(85)

Base 2 attacks, plus the laspistol attack bonus gives 3, plus the charge gives 4 attacks each. When Outflanking with them, you walk on from a board edge right up to an enemy unit (and theres no minimum distance required!), roast the Flamer and shoot a ton of laspistiol shots, then charge with 60 attacks!

Their only drawback that I can see is their low Ld. I always use a Rabble Rouser so they can mooch his Ld8. In any case, they have tons of uses.

I wouldnt use them as an army of their own though. I like to use 500 points worth as a detachment to my Chaos Space Marine army. They make up for one of CSM's biggest weaknesses -- their low numbers.

totgeboren
12-11-2008, 18:19
What rules are you using? Mutants in the LatD codex cost 6 pts per dude, and cant infiltrate...

Or are you using the Apocalypse formation for standard games maybe? :)

Just remember that the formation requires 3 units, and cost 30 pts before buying any units. so, well, hmmm....


though it must be said that those rules for mutants and traitors are the most fitting ones in my mind

junglesnake
12-11-2008, 18:55
There is a data sheet that sort of represents the lost and the damned for appocalypse which is totally legal so far as I know. Otherwise just use counts as and the Imperial Guard codex.

You could go for large mutants as ogryns, fast mutants as rough riders and also have standard troops with warrior weapons if you so desired?!!

dal9ll
12-11-2008, 19:39
There is a data sheet that sort of represents the lost and the damned for appocalypse which is totally legal so far as I know. Otherwise just use counts as and the Imperial Guard codex.

You could go for large mutants as ogryns, fast mutants as rough riders and also have standard troops with warrior weapons if you so desired?!!

Yeah this is what Im talking about. Stupid GW making these rules so hard to find/hard to figure out whats legal... Anyway I guess we werent talking about the same thing. Luckily I printed out the datasheet because now I cant find it anywhere online!

GOD I hope they add Cultist/Mutant/LatD rules to the Traitor Legion Codices when they come out... Cultists are the most common Chaos troops yet there are pretty much no legitimate rules for them!

totgeboren
12-11-2008, 20:42
the rules from the datasheet are quite nice actually. :)

I use the rules from Chapter Approved 2001 (damn time flies when you are having fun) for cultists.

Almost the same as the mutant datasheet, but made more to represent rebels/mobs/cultist rather than mutant. :)

I too would really like to see some proper rules for cultist. I mean, Word Bearers are not Word Bearers without a horde of depraved human followers! Thats their trademark thingy.

Word Bearers without cultists is like Blood Angels without a death company. :(

olmsted
13-11-2008, 05:13
I don't get what is so appealing about the LatD? They don't even have a valid codex or ruleset to work off, so why are guys so keen to keep playing them? Souldn't they just stay lost and damned? Like the genestealer cult.

actually all the rules still work for them and any book is a valid codex as long as there are lists for them.

any list from the eye of terror codex is still valid. heck the 13th have been brought back to life and are extremely deadly in 5th.

DarkReaver
13-11-2008, 16:06
All I can say is that I still use my Latd from time to time. For a while I used Supremearchmarshals fan made one (awesome one too) but have gone back to the one the Staff made official for me.
What do I mean by "Staff made official" well I'll tell you. After I mentioned at my local GW store that I was sad I couldn't use my Latd because of the new Chaos Codex one of the staff said to me just adapt the two together. Since I wasn't sure if I could manage making changes by myself the staff member sat down with me and together we went though the Chaos Codex and the Latd army list making changes that were in acceptable levels. After just over an hour we had finished and had modified the Latd army list to an acceptable one for use in the store.

Mostly everyone was happy with the changes and the few people who weren't happy with the changes were told by Staffers to shut up and play. I was suprised the Staff were willing to help me make changes to bring the Latd to current standards with a little modding. I honestly thought they were gonna tell to change armies or try and con me to play Space Marines *shudders*

St.Germaine
13-11-2008, 16:09
I don't get what is so appealing about the LatD? They don't even have a valid codex or ruleset to work off, so why are guys so keen to keep playing them? Souldn't they just stay lost and damned? Like the genestealer cult.


In the fluff, traitors and mutants are the most common Chaos army youíll likely face. Yes there are Chaos Marines looking to cause trouble, but there arenít nearly as many of them.

From a personal perspective, not everyone wants to play the unstoppable invincible superhumans that always save/ruin the day. Thatís why I play IG and yawn at the though at playing SMís.

On a side note, making your own armies is fun. Right now Iím converting an evil Hrud army based off Chaos Demons.
I've got the beginnings of one of my favorite ideas currently sitting on the shelf because of GW's mixed signals about this codex. I fell in love with the FW Red Scorpions figures but do not want to do a whole army of them. I fell into the idea of a small band of RS (20 or so) caught behind enemy lines and acting as a raiding force until they can get back across the lines. As they move around they stumble across small groups of IG stragglers that they incorporate into their band of guerilla fighters. This would also allow me to paint up small units of IG that I didn't want to do full armies for. The LatD Codex is the most accurate way of doing this in a single list. It can be done with Codex: Daemonhunters but not so cleanly. Basic Chaos Marines are closer to Marines than Grey Knights are in the options available. Stay away from obviously Chaosy options and you have an Imperial army out of this codex. The Daemonhunter solution allows for a limited selection of real IG but "Marines" that are farther away from real Marines. LatD beats Daemonhunters for me. This provides for me a very flavorful army, if a little underpowered due to not using some of the key options available to regular LatD armies.

Beyond MY wanting to use the list, Devil Tree is correct. In GW's description of Chaos, the variants possible with this codex make up 90% of the actual Chaos forces that would be faced on the battlefields of the 41st century. It's an error on GW's part not to actively support this list. Selling miniatures is their number one priority and this list helps sell minis. That it's also the single fluffiest list they ever came up with is only a very tasty bonus that they have somehow managed to miss. I saw a comment posted some time back on one of the oodles of forums I prowl that the reason for this is that the bean counters(BCs) cannot pigeon hole the sales from this list as the minis that are used come from several lines. The money you spend on this army therefore doesn't boost the sales numbers for a particular line in a manner that thus justifys the existence of that line for the BCs. If the BCs can't justify it, it isn't supported. This concept obviously isn't documented but it sure makes a lot of sense to me. If it's true, we'd best not hold our collective breath waiting for GW to update the fluffiest codex they ever did.

Supremearchmarshal
13-11-2008, 16:50
All I can say is that I still use my Latd from time to time. For a while I used Supremearchmarshals fan made one (awesome one too) but have gone back to the one the Staff made official for me.
What do I mean by "Staff made official" well I'll tell you. After I mentioned at my local GW store that I was sad I couldn't use my Latd because of the new Chaos Codex one of the staff said to me just adapt the two together. Since I wasn't sure if I could manage making changes by myself the staff member sat down with me and together we went though the Chaos Codex and the Latd army list making changes that were in acceptable levels. After just over an hour we had finished and had modified the Latd army list to an acceptable one for use in the store.

Mostly everyone was happy with the changes and the few people who weren't happy with the changes were told by Staffers to shut up and play. I was suprised the Staff were willing to help me make changes to bring the Latd to current standards with a little modding. I honestly thought they were gonna tell to change armies or try and con me to play Space Marines *shudders*

It's refreshing to hear about players and staff members actually communicating in this way. And I agree it's very easy to adapt the old LatD to the new codex. GW should have done the following:

1. Say we're sorry, but the LatD are no longer legal at tournaments.

2. Explain how they work with the new CSM codex in a White Dwarf article (which can later be out on their website). It would take up what... 2 pages?

Btw, I'm going to update my codex in a week or two, so you might want to take a look over at Rules Development then. I know you won't be using it, but who knows, you might find something you particularly like.


The money you spend on this army therefore doesn't boost the sales numbers for a particular line in a manner that thus justifys the existence of that line for the BCs. If the BCs can't justify it, it isn't supported. This concept obviously isn't documented but it sure makes a lot of sense to me. If it's true, we'd best not hold our collective breath waiting for GW to update the fluffiest codex they ever did.

Indeed, this is the main reason they're not supported anymore (outside Apocalypse). Jervis Johnson said it himself a long time ago. So if they're ever going to get a codex, it must be accompanied by a model range.

dal9ll
13-11-2008, 19:24
It would be cool to see a LatD model range, I would certainly get some, but I personally think its much more fun and rewarding to convert your own. Its pretty easy. I made a batch of 50 of them out of Cadian, Catachan, CSM, Daemon, Chaos Spawn, Ork, Chaos Warrior, Skaven, and Eldar parts, plus lots of green stuff of course. Theyre going to look really impressive when theyre all painted...

As far as rules go, I would like to see a few entries for Cultists/Mutants/Zombies in (all of)the new Traitor Legion Codices when they come out. Its complete BS that GW doesnt have a legitimate model range and rules for them, since theyre the most common Chaos troops and all.

DarkReaver
14-11-2008, 14:37
It's refreshing to hear about players and staff members actually communicating in this way. And I agree it's very easy to adapt the old LatD to the new codex.
I might go into detail about every change that was made in a future post just to show what we found acceptable, but for now I won't bore people.


Btw, I'm going to update my codex in a week or two, so you might want to take a look over at Rules Development then. I know you won't be using it, but who knows, you might find something you particularly like.
I'll be checking indeed. There are actually a few things I have found very interesting from your Latd Codex which sparked ideas for mine, though bear in mind I do run them all by the staff first and get their thoughts on it too. So yeah I'm looking foward to the new changes you'll of made.


Indeed, this is the main reason they're not supported anymore (outside Apocalypse). Jervis Johnson said it himself a long time ago. So if they're ever going to get a codex, it must be accompanied by a model range.
If there was a model range for them I'd reserve all all available models at my local GW store. I like making my own Latd models but it would be great not to have to convert all the time (I have numerous cuts on my fingers and thumbs thanks to conversions and I nearly cut my left thumb off entirely one time thanks to one Mutant)

Vedar
14-11-2008, 18:14
The LatD should return. It would be nice to see as a subset of the Chaos Legion Codex. Yes all Pipe dreams at this point but one can only hope.