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Colonel Fitzgerald
30-10-2008, 13:43
Okay, I've used the search function (before the thread police swoop) & it came up with nowt - but then, it's never worked for me anyway. If this thread needs to be merged, let's merge it!

I have been considering Vampires lately, (I'm on my lunch so I thought I'd just throw this out there) & my thoughts have settled on the following.

WFB Needs Vampires - they are an integral part of the Fantasy setting - Blade, Anne Rice, Dracula - there's no getting away from them in a fantasy. My problems with them as an army are that they are too good at what they do. This was recently discussed on another forum (http://www.vampirecounts.net/showthread.php?tid=3030&pid=42468#pid42468) and last I checked, there was some sympathy with my position.

I say, quite simply, that having characters as good in combat as Vampire Lords, with the ability to cast the same spells over & over & over until they happen, with the cheapest infantry in the game (Cause Fear, Unbreakable, 4 points, can be brought back from the dead/raised anew altogether) & some of the most elite units out there (Grave Guard, Blood Knights, even Black Knights are VERY cheap compared to the Heavy Cavalry of other armies) is just too much.

I would rather they didn't have the ability to cast the same spell until it works, or that they couldn't field a Von Carstein/Blood Dragon/Nechrach/Strigoi combined force thanks to the double magic item/powers allowance, or that they JUST PAID MORE for their basic infantry (like three times the points.)

What do we think?

I think that GW should be big enough to admit that the current iteration of the Vampires book is a mistake & just write it again - they fight better than Chaos, Cast magic better and for cheaper than Lizardmen, are CHEAPER THAN SKAVEN and, to make matters worse, can start turn 2 with more models than they had at the start of the game.

This discussion is intended to examine the Vampires in detail - like I say, this game needs Vampires, but I think that they are too good all-round for their points cost. It is not my intention to upset anybody or start senseless arguments.

*straps on asbestos pants for the incoming flames*

Malorian
30-10-2008, 14:20
they fight better than Chaos, Cast magic better and for cheaper than Lizardmen, are CHEAPER THAN SKAVEN and, to make matters worse, can start turn 2 with more models than they had at the start of the game.

Ok lets see...

*Does some simulations between chaos troops and VC troops* Nope, chaos is better in combat. Grave guard aren't going to be smashing chaos warriors any time soon.

*Compares a vampire summing lord to a 2nd gen slann* Nope, slann can basically generate 10 PD to the 6 possible by the vampire lord, although each can cast 6 spells the slanns will go off more often.

*Compares VC troops to skaven troops* Nope, skaven are cheaper. (Hard to get cheaper than slaves.)

*Looks to see if they can get mroe models by turn 2* Hey, you got one there. Then of course they've always been able to do that so I don't know where you were going with that one...

theunwantedbeing
30-10-2008, 14:34
GW just needs to errata 1 word in the entire book.
They need to change the word "armour" to "any" in the rule about crumbling from combat resolution.

Ixquic
30-10-2008, 14:34
Personally I think that Vampires are going to be nearer to the bottom of middle tear once all the 7th edition books are out and there are more abilities and items that will screw over their magic defendant army. Just a few points though:

1. Blood line powers are great, but you have to also realize that in order to get certain things that are regularly upgrades for other armies (extra magic levels, mundane armor and weapons, mounts) you need to buy these powers in bundles. So if you want a guy mounted on a barded horse with magic armor, shield and a lance, you need to pay for the Dread Knight bundle, then rebuy the magic stuff. That's not to say stuff like Red Fury or Eternal Hatred aren't great powers, but it's not as simple as "50 points extra stuff more than every other character."

2. Not sure how you're getting that they are better at fighting than Chaos. Vampires as characters have been weakened in 7th edition in an attempt to balance out their stronger army (which still sucks as far as statline is concerned for the most part). Most combat stuff in the VC armory is weak or useless (like the Tomb Blade). The really good stuff is either Lord only (like the Dread Lance) or designed for the WS4 S4 hero (Sword of Kings).

3. Be sure that when Lizardmen come out in 4 months, Slann will be trumping VC magic phases at least in the offensive department. You can't really compare a 7th ed book to a 6th since the power increase has been pretty noticeable after the release of High Elves.

As a Strigoi/Lahmia player in 6th I don't really like the direction the new book took with a strong focus on Von Carsteins but overall I think it's not a bad design. The one nerf I think it really could do with is possibly making spamming Invocation more difficult. However if you took away the ability to do it entirely, you would ruin the army in its current state since a 4+ spell to raise D6 models is very weak on its own.


GW just needs to errata 1 word in the entire book.
They need to change the word "armour" to "any" in the rule about crumbling from combat resolution.

They need to give me back my no strings ward save and ASF then too.

EvC
30-10-2008, 14:37
Don't really agree. The power level is very high, but have you actually read the book, or are you just going off of what you've heard?

It is nigh impossible to make a Vampire Lord that is great at both casting and combat. 4 WS7 S5 attacks is not actually that good- especially when the guy making the attacks is unlikelt to have much defence. Just yesterday I was playing a game against High Elves, and my Vampire Lord - with pretty much the strongest combination of combat powers in the book - was simply unable to beat my opponent's BSB in a one-on-one fight, because he had a re-rollable 1+ save. And so my Lord crumbled, turning what should have been a clear win for me, into a draw (4 points away from a loss!).

It's also worth noting that VC troops are not cheap. They're not as expensive as they used to be, but the main problem is that it's still more points-effective to raise them then buy them in the first place. The magic system is flawed, because you reap exponentially greater rewards at higher magic offense levels, but all we can do is hope for player restraint in that area. I think it would be good if, say, you had to pay a 20 point premium for a bloodline power to recast spells (letting necros do it for free), but the book isn't totally broken without it.

Lord Malorne
30-10-2008, 14:39
Personaly I have not lots to the vamps...yet...

Has anyone here never beaten them?

Colonel Fitzgerald
30-10-2008, 14:46
Personaly I have not lots to the vamps...yet...

Has anyone here never beaten them?

I'm not saying they're unbeatable - just too cheap & good all round (yes, I've beaten them.)


Ok lets see...

*Does some simulations between chaos troops and VC troops* Nope, chaos is better in combat. Grave guard aren't going to be smashing chaos warriors any time soon.

*Compares a vampire summing lord to a 2nd gen slann* Nope, slann can basically generate 10 PD to the 6 possible by the vampire lord, although each can cast 6 spells the slanns will go off more often.

*Compares VC troops to skaven troops* Nope, skaven are cheaper. (Hard to get cheaper than slaves.)

*Looks to see if they can get mroe models by turn 2* Hey, you got one there. Then of course they've always been able to do that so I don't know where you were going with that one...

Hm - are slaves immune to psychology, unbreakable & cause Fear? Last I checked they were just lower LD clanrats with no armour?

& Yes, whilst a Slann has more spells & more dice, he hasn't got the ability to just keep on casting the same spell until it happens, making his magic less reliable than that of the undead.

& Chaos don't have to lose to the undead on turn one... turns two and three will do (although yes, they can - killing blow from troops that are S4 anyway really does work) but Chaos aren't as good as Blood Knights, for instance. It's a lot to do with the fact you can go wolf form on one lord & bat form on another & then the game's almost yours - if you're any good (just my experience)

EvC
30-10-2008, 14:46
GW just needs to errata 1 word in the entire book.
They need to change the word "armour" to "any" in the rule about crumbling from combat resolution.

No no noooo, that's not a valid solution. The only reason taking saves from crumbling is a problem is because of the Drakenhof Banner. I really do think that as separate ideas the Drakenhof Banner and saving crumbling wounds are great ideas- but put them together and you have a BIG problem. One simple solution is just to limit saves for crumbling to models with the Vampire rule. Okay, Varghulfs and Blood Knights with regen are annoying, but they should be!

Malorian
30-10-2008, 14:54
Hm - are slaves immune to psychology, unbreakable & cause Fear? Last I checked they were just lower LD clanrats with no armour?

& Yes, whilst a Slann has more spells & more dice, he hasn't got the ability to just keep on casting the same spell until it happens, making his magic less reliable than that of the undead.

& Chaos don't have to lose to the undead on turn one... turns two and three will do (although yes, they can - killing blow from troops that are S4 anyway really does work) but Chaos aren't as good as Blood Knights, for instance. It's a lot to do with the fact you can go wolf form on one lord & bat form on another & then the game's almost yours - if you're any good (just my experience)

You didn't say anything about ItP, you said cheaper, and there is no doubt that skaven models are cheaper. If you want to try something fun try a simulation between slaves and zombies.

A gatling slann can keep up with the summoning of a vampire lord. That +1 to dispel makes a big deal too.

Grave guard still can't keep up with the two attacks. In the end it will be a draw or the warriors will win if it's a straight fight.

EvC
30-10-2008, 15:01
Grave Guard will win, if the VC player pumps loads of dice into healing them and giving them ASF and re-roll misses. In which case we're not comparing Grave Guard to Chaos Warriors, but Grave Guard and Vampire magic to Chaos Warriors. Which isn't very fair, really ;)

Lord Malorne
30-10-2008, 15:04
I took a flanking unit of 5 grave guard...they were locked in combat with a unit of skinks the entire game, even with healing we kept drawing :cries:.

Voltaire
30-10-2008, 20:23
The problem probably comes with the ease the VC have to create and then maintain 'Super Star Destroyer' units without really sacrificing much in the way of points used up on core. What other army can field 240 points of core then make an army where everything is else is ridiculously hard to beat in combat? No other army can do it.

Col. Fitzgeralds more recent Vampire experiences have come as a result of fighting some of my own undead. He has been put up against, and used, units so horrendously efficient at what they do (20 strong Grave Guard with Blood Drinker/Red Fury Lord, 9 Black Knights with a Wight King BSB who Killing Blows an enemy on a 5+ and Blood Knights to wrap up the parcel) that it can become disheartening. It's a fair point as the Vampire List is one of two halves - substantially horrific core that are weak stat wise but are still fear causing and unbreakable, coupled with units that take multiple turns to kill and are simply healed when damaged.

Inversely, I have noticed through lengthy debates on this subject that Vampires, while being able to do everything (skirmish, fast cav, flyers) while being unbreakable and fear causing, they do it with panache. Can anyone else do this? Tomb Kings? Nooo they've not got the panache to back it up. A tomb King is good, but it isn't a vampire. The spamming of Invocation is something I agree with, in principle but Vanhels is a bit over the top.

The jury is still out on this one for me. I'll keep playing them and enjoy playing them but I am conscious of other players opinions of them.

Lord Malorne
30-10-2008, 20:33
Everyone seems to underestimate killing the general, it is far more devestating then some people think, some VC's players will give up as soon as he/she is dead!

I know the enemy can (and IMO should!) hide the general, but if you do manage to take it out, it is one hell of a blow to the army.

I believe when the WoC have been out for awhile...a similar thread will pop up :p.

isidril93
30-10-2008, 20:59
im sure 90 swordmasters can hack through zombies (and 2k armies with swordmasters is completely possible, i've almost designed one( but i wont use it; so much metal))

swordmasters style prince is also a nice way to kill vamps (mind you though i've never actually played against them)

Malorian
30-10-2008, 21:20
Swordmasters kill everything, but anything with multiple attacks does well against VC.

Hvidponi
31-10-2008, 12:09
I feel like VC is the best consistent book right now, especially their footslugger list with regenrating grave guards... But I have a hard time gettting enough VP with it, cause movement 4 infantry is just so damn slow!
As far as I can tell (also I belive a recent poll on this site support this) Deamons are a stronger list, although not that consistent...
But basically, the main flaw is regenration banner that works on static too, and recastable spells...

Colonel Fitzgerald
31-10-2008, 12:45
[QUOTE=Voltaire;3050521]The problem probably comes with the ease the VC have to create and then maintain 'Super Star Destroyer' units without really sacrificing much in the way of points used up on core. What other army can field 240 points of core then make an army where everything is else is ridiculously hard to beat in combat? No other army can do it.

Col. Fitzgeralds more recent Vampire experiences have come as a result of fighting some of my own undead. He has been put up against, and used, units so horrendously efficient at what they do (20 strong Grave Guard with Blood Drinker/Red Fury Lord, 9 Black Knights with a Wight King BSB who Killing Blows an enemy on a 5+ and Blood Knights to wrap up the parcel) that it can become disheartening. It's a fair point as the Vampire List is one of two halves - substantially horrific core that are weak stat wise but are still fear causing and unbreakable, coupled with units that take multiple turns to kill and are simply healed when damaged.
QUOTE]

Ah! Nemesis! My problem with them isn't the superstar destroyers, although it's a fair point to make that, as Carly Simon said, when it comes to Vampires, nobody does it better...

My problem with them lately has been (as illustrated by the wholly abusive build I keep using on you lol) that you can have a lord with wolf form and a lord with bat form in the same list - so all the bases are covered. You can't kill what you can't catch, so the assertion that 'bumping off the general will do' really isn't much of an assertion at all - you can't catch him!

Voltaire
31-10-2008, 13:58
The abusive build has its flaws but the overall impetuos remains the same. They can just be that good by moving like a cheetah on amphetamines that killing the general no longer becomes a viable option.

Lord Malorne
31-10-2008, 14:02
The abusive build has its flaws but the overall impetuos remains the same. They can just be that good by moving like a cheetah on amphetamines that killing the general no longer becomes a viable option.


I realy do not see how killing the general does not become viable. were there is a will there is a way ;).

him_15
31-10-2008, 14:20
have to disagree..
Although Undead troops cause fear, ItP and being unbreakable, they also suffer badly from low movement, weapon and Initiate, which would just cancel out their disadvantage, their chance to win combat is to auto break the enemy with both fear and outnumber, which is not always happening, that's the reason undead need magic to sustain lost model. Otherwise they don't even have a chance, while I don agree that vampire is very good in combat and magic, but they cost a lot of point!

EvC
31-10-2008, 14:20
Where there's a unit of 20 regenerating Grave Guard in the way, it becomes rather difficult...

Morph
31-10-2008, 14:38
No-one's mentioned Daemons yet, so I feel it my duty to remind people of that GW mistake. Vampires pale in comparisson.

To be honest, unless you're building some over-the-top magic list, VCs are merely a very good competative army, in line with Dark Elves, High Elves and others.

But Colonel, if you don't want to play Vamps because you think they are too powerful then the answer is simple. Don't.

Malorian
31-10-2008, 14:55
Where there's a unit of 20 regenerating Grave Guard in the way, it becomes rather difficult...

20 regenerating Grave Guard won't stop a dragon from flying over and hitting your bunker :D

EvC
31-10-2008, 15:02
Actually it will, because the Dragon will have nowhere to land if the two units are placed properly ;)

Malorian
31-10-2008, 15:07
Actually it will, because the Dragon will have nowhere to land if the two units are placed properly ;)

That saves you on turn one, but what about when it flies to your flank or rear on turn 2/3? Either you better hope you get a vanhels off (and are in range) with a tarpit, or else that bunker is history.

God help you when you are playing larger games and there are multiple large target flying monsters... you're only hope is the Von Carstein ring... and even that only saves you for so long (except for 1/6 games where it fails)...

Lord Malorne
31-10-2008, 15:17
Plus how many dispell scrolls does a typical VC army have...?

Not much for the magic defense are the VC's, I managed to get my wildriders into the general on turn 4...killed him, the army suffered crumble end of my turn and start of his...double whammy!

EvC
31-10-2008, 15:56
That saves you on turn one, but what about when it flies to your flank or rear on turn 2/3? Either you better hope you get a vanhels off (and are in range) with a tarpit, or else that bunker is history.

If the Dragon flies to the flank (which it should do if it's smart), then the Vamp player just has to make sure his unit champion is on the flank to take the challenge, give him WS7 with the Helm to limit the dragon's kills and then getting another unit into the Dragon is usually easy. if it flies to the rear, then it is definitely in range for a VHD, and magic defence is usually quite limited in a Dragon army. Worse comes to worst and the Lord can just go and join the Grave Guard (with nowhere for the Dragon to land), which isn't bad protection either ;)

Course good players can usually come up with counter tactic on the fly, but it's certainly not easy :)

g0ddy
31-10-2008, 16:05
Personaly I have not lots to the vamps...yet...

Has anyone here never beaten them?

I havent 'lost' with my vampire army yet? Ive even turned two general's death games into draws.. and one into a minor victory. Ive even had my caster lord die on turn one to a stone thrower...

Im not going to dwell one the "creative" points brought up in the OP.. as others have already pointed out. But ill leave you with this :

Let your local VC players get their 'goob' on for a few months - soon theyll realize there are better ways to play the army. Ones that offer their opponent (and themselves) a more interesting game. Ones that dont involve 14 power dice - and all of which are perfectly reasonable and effective.

For the time being Ive personally dropped down to playing 1500 pt games... without any regenerating graveguard, without a vampire lord. Over the last month or so people are actually telling me they 'enjoyed' fighting my army.

The moral of the story here - just because you can, doesnt mean you have to.

~ zilla

Malorian
31-10-2008, 16:10
If you have a champ in your bunker (and most don't), then you are looking at a dead champ plus whatever overkill he does. The flank cancels out the outnumber and so the bunker crumbles 0-6 models depending on how well the dragon and lord do. (If there is no champ then pretty much your bunker is gone.)

If you counter charge the dragon on your turn you probably won't break it and now you've presented your flank or rear to be counter-counter charged by your opponent.

Meanwhile your lord is trapped in that bunker and waits to die.

g0ddy
31-10-2008, 16:17
The problem probably comes with the ease the VC have to create and then maintain 'Super Star Destroyer' units without really sacrificing much in the way of points used up on core. What other army can field 240 points of core then make an army where everything is else is ridiculously hard to beat in combat? No other army can do it.

...


Thats not a fair comparison. Sure you can have 240 pts of core, but you better pray that enemy shooting doesnt wipe out a unit or 2 with their ranged on the first turn... Before your 1000 pts of wizards get to weigh in.

A less 'lop sided' statement would be ... I have 240 pts of core and 1000 pts of wizards... then 750 pts more of "cool stuff".

I dont want to advocate 14+ power dice builds, but people need to realize that Vampires require a certain amount of magic to go off simply to make their army usable.


Plus how many dispell scrolls does a typical VC army have...?

...

My vote goes with zero - they are not in any way cost effective for them to want to use. Vampire magic item allowance is FAR FAR too valuable.
Gateway is the ONLY spell (situationally speaking of course) I would 'want' a scroll to throw at - and this spell has only existed for the last 2 weeks?

- zilla

Lord Malorne
31-10-2008, 16:27
That may be the case for you but every area has a different skill level for the local players.

g0ddy
31-10-2008, 16:39
Im not sure what you mean? Vampire players in your locale use lots of scrolls?

Scrolls do not bring very much to the table for a 'casting' based vampire army. Losing models doesnt matter, losing units however does. Everything that isnt a vampire is expendable and they can all be healed or brought back whole sale. That being said, as an advocate of the 'non-use' of scrolls, Wall of Fire and Beast Cowers top my list of annoying spells that sometimes go off.

I cant fathom a logical way for me to include a scroll in anything smaller than a 3000 pt game without sacrificing something far more important first :S The armies greatest strength is consistency - something that IMHO applies to your magical defense aswell.

Balefire is your friend.

~ zilla

EvC
31-10-2008, 16:42
If you have a champ in your bunker (and most don't), then you are looking at a dead champ plus whatever overkill he does. The flank cancels out the outnumber and so the bunker crumbles 0-6 models depending on how well the dragon and lord do. (If there is no champ then pretty much your bunker is gone.)

Come on, do you seriously think I don't know these things? For a start, most bunkers do have a champion, for precisely this sort of thing. Often the bunker is a Ghoul unit so there might not be a standard. So your Dragon has charged in and killed the champion and a half dozen skeletons from crumbling- big whoop! Next turn the Lord needs to get off one raise to bring back that unit champion, and start bumping the unit back up to high strength.


If you counter charge the dragon on your turn you probably won't break it and now you've presented your flank or rear to be counter-counter charged by your opponent.

Perhaps. But if we are assuming a VC player who has allowed the Dragon to charge them in the flank, then he will almost certainly have better back-up. The number of times I've broken a Dragonlord with ease is just silly- and consider, this is with my dice, which are universally regarded as attrocious ;)


Meanwhile your lord is trapped in that bunker and waits to die.

Nah, Forbidden Lore means he can either save his skin with umpteen challenges and his support units and VHD, or will have taken one of the two most likely other Lores: Beasts, in which case the Dragon will probably never get there in the first time (Or if it does, then there will come a round in which it cannot actually make attacks = BIG loss for Dragon!), or Shadow, in which case the Lord can go flying out at his leisure ;)

Again, not to say that the VCs will definitely win, it comes down to the skill of the players involved, but tarpitting a Dragon is not a huge challenge for most VC armies. You are acting like it is simplicity itself- so how many times have your opponents assassinated your Vampire Lord with a Dragon then? :)

Malorian
31-10-2008, 16:52
If you try and tarpit the dragon and raise back up the champ and fill back up the unit, now you have to go through TWO turns of combat before you can heal up again (the second round you'll have no champ), which pretty much means it's toast .

It is really simple, and being that a lord on a dragon isn't much more than the vampire lord it's hunting it's not really over dedicating points to the task.

I've faced dragons and gotten away with it (so far... and once needing the ring to save me) but that was because my opponents still weren't used to what I was capable with my magic. Now that they have been 'educated' I wouldn't hope for the same mistakes.

Edit: EvC, I know I'm over explaining things, but I'm doing so not because I don't think you know them but becuase I want to make it clear to anyone else who reads this thread. I wouldn't want it on my head that a handful of VC noobs read this and think that their bunker can hold up a dragon...

EvC
31-10-2008, 17:09
Okay, so in actual gaming experience, neither you nor I have ever had our Vampire Lord's infantry unit exterminated by a big flying monster. If you were to use your Vampires against and your opponent turned up with a Star Dragon army, would you be scared?

Of course,a bunker can't stand up to a direct charge from the most powerful monster in the game, and no-one should just let it happen. However, it is perfectly within the realms of possibility for the VC player to a) Prevent it from happening at all b) mitigate the damage done c) repair the damage d) comprehensively beat the Dragon with static CR and break it (eventually). If the Dragon is well-supported, however, then it becomes a whole different game :D

Malorian
31-10-2008, 17:16
Of course I would be scared. When ever my opponent has a flying large target monster, be it even a manticor, I'm scared because all my opponent has to do is use it right and I'm in trouble.

Lets say I even ran Lahboura out of the unit, well what about the necromancer and the helm vamp? Where would they go? If I throw them all in the front line ghouls then they are sitting ducks for the rest of my opponent's army.

When I first beat the empire player with Franz on a griffin, and he thought it showed just how good VC was, I offered to have a rematch where we use the opposite team. He turned me down.

It might take some positioning, but there is nothing you can do to stop that monster from hitting your bunker, and once he's there you have to do everything in your power to stop him. Unfortunately this is also when he will be breaking out the scrolls and pushing hard with the rest of his army.

treben1234
31-10-2008, 19:27
Vc over powered? It comes down to your tatics, list and dice rolling. The same guy I was fighting with 3000 point magic heavy list vs his 3000 point High Elf list, I have 1 win 1 draw and 5 loss. Played that guys lizardmen 3000pt I lost 1. I played a differnt guy down there 3 times. He used High elfs I got 3 wins. Played agenst empire once. I got Slaughterd. First game with the new book.

Play a guy that used vampire counts for 10 years. He had great tatics, but his Vc list was badly made and just complained how he can't make his all mount blood dragon theme list work the way he wants to with doom wolfs and zombie unit with standard...ect. I magicly sapported my Casting lord with 2 up save, rest is all casting powers, staff, dice.... and killed Full Command BloodKnights that over ran into him in 3 turns.

If you play high elfs this is what you do vs Vampire counts. Get a unit of sword masters 14-20 7 wide. Have a unit of Phinx guard for the magic resistens agienst winds of death. Have some archers and a bolt thrower to ward of vamps on foot. And have 2 charators able to cast drain magic.

Get that spell off once and you have nootered is magic phase. Get it off twise and he will be miss casting his Nehec spell.

And hears another tip. If a vampire is in a not a uber combat vamp kill it. Keep going after the charators and they wont have maigc. There troops cant fight there way out of a wet paper bag.

Then you have blood knights if they taken them. If you have range attacks do nothen but shoot them. I they have a hero with the blood drinker well. Make sure you shoot them some more. I have'nt played Orce and goblens but from dwarfs to choas they are beatable.

Colonel Fitzgerald
31-10-2008, 23:37
All interesting points - even if I don't agree with many of them:)

Voltaire & I are going to do an "exhibition" game soon - one with 4k of Vampires (controlled by me - my third outing with them) versus 2k of mortal Chaos & all four Greater Daemons as tooled up as they like, controlled by the glamourous Voltaire. He makes dire predictions of outfighting & outmagicking me at every turn - we shall see. I've never seen that happen, & I've been watching Vampires since about 2001/2 (can't quite remember). I think I'm down by about 3 Lord Choices & something like 12 levels of magic & around 500 points, but it should be fun!

I have to agree with the poster who said just becasue you can, doesn't mean you should. The problem with that is that if gamers see an option or a combination that looks spicy, they'll use it. Like that Dreadlance/Red Fury thing. Or the ability to dance around the enemy in wolf/bat form like some kind of daemoniacal Errol Flynn, raising Zombies much like a cartoon rodent might make broomsticks to sweep the floor of themselves.

We will be posting on here the battle report of this titanic encounter - my last outing with Vampires was a loss (lost 3/5 Blood Knights on turn 1 to a Fireball - doh!) but the first was an off the chart massacre for the Vampires (using much the same list.) This new list will be much the same again (only bigger) & so at least it'll test my theory - that Vampires can be played like 6th edition only much better because bloodline powers are a free-for-all now, which does sort of point to my basic argument that the new combinations in the Vampire book makes them just a bit too good in larger games.

Our game won't prove anything of course, nor will it change anyone's opinion, but hopefully it'll make good reading!:D

Talonz
01-11-2008, 23:59
Play with the 6th ed. vampire counts book. I think that edition was excellent and far more interesting and balanced than the current 7th ed monstrosity.

Caine Mangakahia
03-11-2008, 00:51
A fairly experienced VC player, I usually play once a week against such opponants as DoC, DE HE and soon WoC.
The results are pretty much plain average I win some and I lose some. VC are just as much at the mercy of the dice as any other army especially with the low statlines in its core troops.
VC heroes are not all that great (especially in sub 2000 points) and Lords are very killable. You'll notice that their stats are pretty close to DE & HE Lords (if not worse) apart from Strength (maybe to make up for a fairly average weapons list) and T 5 (few good ward saves and protective magic items come with strings attached) and as has already been pointed out, dead General=win for opponant.
A lot of the 7th Ed armies have so much ammo with which to hammer undead into paste that I wonder what much of the complaining is about, demons are so much worse.
Hate the VC magic phase? Take a level 1 Wizard with 2 dispel scrolls (or Teclis)and put him in a forest & save him for the Vanhels that you dont like. Let undead raise as their troops are pretty bad for the most part anyway and mince em with black guard swordmasters etc.

Talonz
03-11-2008, 02:54
I think you're in the wrong topic...

Caine Mangakahia
03-11-2008, 20:12
Nope, just reckon VC are getting more flak than they deserve.
To make your own point, I enjoyed 6 edition VC. The only real problem I had with them was that Lords probably didn't need the extra Hero slot cost (and 6th Ed. Black Orcs too) and Skellies were a little overpriced (the new Skellie cost is very fair).
While the new spam uber magic phase seems to be a sore point, something had to be put in to replace all the great stuff they took out.

Mireadur
03-11-2008, 20:50
Current VC have really strong units. That crap of having super weak units is certainly history. The fact you can reraise those quite strong CC units just makes them quite insane.

Fortunately Gav made vampires killable now, still they are strongest in a challenge than a chaos lord due to their much better item/powers combinations.
Also crumbling, unless happens quite soon in the game, wont have an effect comparable to what it used to be: auto lose. If you cant see how crumbling after general is dead doesnt have that big impact on the game now (still can have a big impact under certain circunstances dont missread my words pls). The main effect of losing the vampire lord nowadays is losing 2-4 lvls of magic and your hardest CC baddie, just to like anyone else who puts all eggs in the same basket. Dont forget the vampire is outrageously cheap for its abilities.

W0lf
03-11-2008, 22:21
My biggest gripe with vampires is the list is not at all how i picture them.

At 2K i dont think their would be 4 vampires there, far more like one uber vampire lord (better then current) and his necromancer underlings.

Caine Mangakahia
04-11-2008, 02:17
Current VC have really strong units. That crap of having super weak units is certainly history. The fact you can reraise those quite strong CC units just makes them quite insane. .

Vampires have OK units but not as good as all that,Ghouls probably being the best core unit IMO giving up some protection and a standard for better combat ability than the skeletons,but generally undead die in sufficient quantities to require raising .Zombies are still fairly awful, even at 4 points per model. Dire wolves and Bat Swarms aren't wotrth the effort.
Grave Guard and Black Knights have always been solid units and are pretty much the same(except Ld).
Black Coach while still cool, was better in 6 ed. and most other units are plain expensive.


Fortunately Gav made vampires killable now, still they are strongest in a challenge than a chaos lord due to their much better item/powers combinations.
Also crumbling, unless happens quite soon in the game, wont have an effect comparable to what it used to be: auto lose. If you cant see how crumbling after general is dead doesnt have that big impact on the game now (still can have a big impact under certain circunstances dont missread my words pls). The main effect of losing the vampire lord nowadays is losing 2-4 lvls of magic and your hardest CC baddie, just to like anyone else who puts all eggs in the same basket. Dont forget the vampire is outrageously cheap for its abilities.


I have to disagree that VC are best in a challenge, other armies have equally good if not better combat models. (DE regenerating pendant of kaleth tank with 1+ Save, Empire Character with Van Horstmans Speculum, Any Khorne demon on a juggernaut) apart from the Str & T the stat lines are fairly similar and most armies have a better selection of magical weapons to even out that advantage. Eternal hatred is probably best edge that VC have, I dont rate Red Fury against non-infantry/non-light cavalry models.
A dead General for VC, quite frankly, bites for the VC player. With low Ld throughout and some bad rolling you can quite easily decimate the army.
Ourageously cheap? a fully tooled vampire lord will cost around 500 points, mildy tooled is still around 300. Still only a 4 attack 3 wound character.

sulla
06-11-2008, 02:42
A dead General for VC, quite frankly, bites for the VC player. With low Ld throughout and some bad rolling you can quite easily decimate the army.

Which you kindly decided to illustrate on Weds by popping a full unit of black knights for me in 2 tests... How generous ;):p

Ourageously cheap? a fully tooled vampire lord will cost around 500 points, mildy tooled is still around 300. Still only a 4 attack 3 wound character.

Your lord is certainly not cheap, but I think he's priced fairly for a caster and an above average fighter. He is vulnerable now but many heroes are. And you can still heal yourself if the other guy makes the cardinal mistake like I did last night, of only mostly killing one. The absolute best thing about him is he is probably the most versatile character out there. With 18 bloodline powers and access to the entire magic items list except for banners, you can customise him to a greater extent than almost any other army. While a straight out fighter or a super caster are the most efficient use of points, there is still enough wiggle room in the VC list to take a 'sub-optimal build' without it really sacrificing too much in your list. And there are combos out there not widely used. Consider a fighter-caster with Beguile, infinite hatred and the sword of kings. Reroll all misses, probably reroll all failed wounds and kb on 6's. Still leaves 50pts of powers and 75pts of magic for protection and casting. Or in a list with a few scrolls, an etheral great weapon toting flyer? Obviously more risky than most options but probably fun to use and more fun for your opponent than a bunker-fied ghoul excavator.:D

gorenut
06-11-2008, 08:13
My biggest gripe with vampires is the list is not at all how i picture them.

At 2K i dont think their would be 4 vampires there, far more like one uber vampire lord (better then current) and his necromancer underlings.

Which is the same gripe I have. I really don't have problems with the list as a whole.. I just think the imagery has been changed. Now it's possible to have like a dozen "vampires" in a 2k game. Ok, I'm overexagerrating with blood knights etc and they don't really count.. but I preferred having atleast an uber Lord vampire and the rest being more lowly.

Frankly
06-11-2008, 09:21
I think thats a fare call actually Gorenut and W0lf.

I could argue against it by saying that in times of war the elites of a vampire clan all get together for a common course, but I can't even see that happening in such a power hungry race.

I think the book plays really well and plays how an undead army should play on the table top, lots of zombies coming out of the ground, lots of scary stuff roaming around.

I think multi-casting IoN is fine and not as strong as people may think it is, but multi-casting vanses is pretty powerful ... maybe to powerful imho. But besides that I like playing and/or playing against V.C. will usually make for an interesting game.

Draconian77
06-11-2008, 10:23
In my experience developing games and more importantly, playing games two things push the Vampire counts ahead of the rest. (And they are ahead of the rest, check the tournament results, Demons are up there too)

Problem 1: Warrior Mages: I have said this a hundred thousand times by now but no race should really get Warrior Mages in the hero slot. You should not have the ability to cast every turn and still be a powerhouse in combat. Now people tell me that they aren't powerhouses but they are much better than any other Hero level Wizard when it comes to attacks... Tzeentch lost his Warrior Mages in the latest WoC book and hopefully this shows GW's new thinking on the issue. Warrior mages are just asking to be abused.

Problem 2: Over 50pts/100pts of magic items. This is just obvious. Races have a limit to prevent absurd combos. By giving the vampires more points to spend and more options you open up absurd combos to be abused.

But nothings going to change for years so theres really no point discussing it. Just hope that the other armies don't get warrior mages!

Count Demandred
06-11-2008, 11:12
In my experience developing games and more importantly, playing games two things push the Vampire counts ahead of the rest. (And they are ahead of the rest, check the tournament results, Demons are up there too)

Problem 1: Warrior Mages: I have said this a hundred thousand times by now but no race should really get Warrior Mages in the hero slot. You should not have the ability to cast every turn and still be a powerhouse in combat. Now people tell me that they aren't powerhouses but they are much better than any other Hero level Wizard when it comes to attacks... Tzeentch lost his Warrior Mages in the latest WoC book and hopefully this shows GW's new thinking on the issue. Warrior mages are just asking to be abused.

Problem 2: Over 50pts/100pts of magic items. This is just obvious. Races have a limit to prevent absurd combos. By giving the vampires more points to spend and more options you open up absurd combos to be abused.

But nothings going to change for years so theres really no point discussing it. Just hope that the other armies don't get warrior mages!

You might as well take out the Vampires themselves while you're at it.

Ixquic
06-11-2008, 11:18
For the most part the 50 Blood power/50 Magic items thing isn't what makes VC so much better. They are still balancing out the combos since it's not like you get 100 total points to play around with for heroes. Also the Blood powers incorporate stuff that are just regular upgrades for other race's heroes like weapons, armor and magic levels.

I do agree that warrior mages are nice, but if you are taking a guy who is good in combat and a level 2 mage, he's going to be upwards of 175 to 200 points which quickly eats into what you are spending on the other parts of the army. This can be mitigated by mix-maxing core then raising it during the battle which is probably what makes VC so good right now. If you aren't doing that sort of list it's much more balanced. Without upgrading a hero vampire to level 2 he's not going to be doing much other than helping out with an extra dispel dice and sometimes healing himself (which Warrior priests do a better job of).

Also although Vampires excel at murdering troops, they are pretty miserable fighting other heroes. Most other races can put together a build that will kill or at least have a very good shot of taking down even a combat Vampire.

The Clairvoyant
06-11-2008, 11:35
i don't play 2k games but if i did, i wouldn't be taking 4 vampires. It would be my fighty lord, a wight king, a necro and a wight BSB.

Vampire heroes, although you can take 50pts of both bloodlines and magic items, i rarely do.
If you give your vamp the book or arkhan or the rod of flaming death, it means you're not facing a vampire with much protection. Sure, he could have avatar of death and pay 20pts for heavy armour and a shield (or 25pts for the same but on a horse) but then you're not taking the extra magic level and if you have one of the summon powers so you can IoN his unit, plus having armour you're not getting any decent combat powers or any extra magic dice.

What i'm saying is that the vamp heroes are the best ones to kill, instead of trying to kill the lord (of course the lord would be preferable as well). The vamp hero has 2W and T4. Even an elf could kill him without breaking into a sweat.

All these people sinking all their points into 4 characters and then raising their army afterwards (if that is the generally accepted tactic) may well be onto a good thing, but its not my thing.

And i like to take 'different' vampires. If i take a 3rd lord in 4000pts (which more often than not i don't because of the cost), i generally make him ethereal or take a scouting bat which is much more fun.

A wight king is far better use for the points than another point-sink vampire hero in my opinion. You start out with heavy armour and shield, one more wound and one more point of toughness. And you don't feel the need to overload on bloodline powers just because you can.

Colonel Fitzgerald
06-11-2008, 12:56
I think, & have done since they brought out the new book, that the combination of bloodline powers & magic items on top is too powerful. It's not for opinion to say 'it's a waste of points to do x or y' but for the cold facts of what happens when some guy does do x or y with his vampire (i.e. makes a 500 point monster.) Once a unit or character is passed a certain tipping point, the point of critical mass as another poster once said, it becomes worth 3 or 4 times its own points cost in true table-top ability. Sure, you might be able to kill a 500 point vampire in a challenge or with a spell or with combat res - but what if you can't catch him? Against Voltaire, I had two ridiculous vampires in a 3k list - they not only ran rings around his whole army, but used repeated & unstoppable castings of raise dead to corral his troops into the places I wanted them to go, then charged the tender flank & rear of his general's unit, beat them, then (as we were pursuing on 3d6) caught them as though it were child's play.

Nobody ever, (& I really do mean, ever) has been able to describe to me one single reliable way of beating the Errol Flynn (hungry like the wolf with a charge range of 18" or fly by night bat form) Vampire Lord. They've got tiny wee bases too, making them even better at exploiting small gaps than any fast cavalry or flier out there. This situation has existed since at least 6th ed, with the Von Carstein Wolf Form & the Strigoi Bat Form. Now, in 7th ed, you can do both in the same army &, while you're there, throw in a Blood Knight style guy with 8 lance armed attacks that autohit. :wtf:
The fact that you can nip round the back of your opponent's whole army with what is essentially a quarter of yours by turn two, then use raise dead spam to your little heart's content, is indisputible. Sure, it may not be fair & god knows it's not the best way to make for a fun game, but the fact that the combination exists in the book is enough. Players will do it. There is no effective answer to the tactic.*

*No effective answer.

Back in 2000 it was explained to me that, like in 40k, Fantasy relied on the basic tenet that any 2k army from any race can beat any other 2k army from any other race, so long as the player's good enough. That, I can see (& can be seen from tournament charts) is a myth. Once you write into the rules a tactic that has no reliable non-tailored solution, then you force army list tailoring (which goes against the whole idea of tournament play.) The thing that makes the Errol Flynn Vampire Lord all the worse though is that, tailor your list all you like, his suits come from Saville Row & he's got the panache to put your lights out, even if the player using him is a total novice & you're a veteran.

Draconian77
06-11-2008, 13:04
Whilst I would say that ordinarily an expensive Warrior Mage class hero can eat into other things its just not the case for Vampires. For example 175-200pts is only marginally more expensive than your average Level 2 Elf mage and I would certainly pay the extra 20-30 ish points for the CR that the Vamp brings.

Added to that, even though you get a smaller army if you shrink you core selection(Which Vampire players often do) then its really a non-issue as they just raise the army as the game progresses.

I think nearly all Vampire armies are running heroes/lords with their maximum or near-maximum magic item allotment, nearly all armies do this becaue the scope for taking magic items is limited(Not so in the VC's case)

I agree that killing the Vamp heroes is the best way to win the game, every time my Druchii play against the Vamps I employ this strategy(Lots of M9, flying and killing blow involved...) but other armies don't have these options or certainly not in abundance.

More importantly, having to kill the heroes to have any chance of winning just smacks of hero hammer, if you can't win by attacking the Vampire Counts units then the game stagnates into hero sniping which is tedious and often leads to boring games.

But as I have mentioned before discussing it is pretty pointless, people won't agree on these things and its not like its going to change. Maybe GW will balance things next book, maybe not, all we can do is wait and see.

Frankly
06-11-2008, 22:01
I think, & have done since they brought out the new book, that the combination of bloodline powers & magic items on top is too powerful. It's not for opinion to say 'it's a waste of points to do x or y' but for the cold facts of what happens when some guy does do x or y with his vampire (i.e. makes a 500 point monster.) Once a unit or character is passed a certain tipping point, the point of critical mass as another poster once said, it becomes worth 3 or 4 times its own points cost in true table-top ability

.......Sure, you might be able to kill a 500 point vampire in a challenge or with a spell or with combat res - but what if you can't catch him.......

Nobody ever, (& I really do mean, ever) has been able to describe to me one single reliable way of beating the Errol Flynn (hungry like the wolf with a charge range of 18" or fly by night bat form) Vampire Lord.


Run flee bait ... shot ... stab ... magic death? Pick your option. Put big Franks on a griffin and give him a empire list with 2 S.Tanks or just 4 cannons and a lot of H.Rifles.

Duel with an old blood with jag charm and aura of quetzl.

You acting like its the only small target smashy unit in the game.


Dude really what are you trying to say, because you could say this about any armybook. Any book can write up top heavy, power gaming lists, most armybooks can chuck out some sort of CC monster on a large target, are you going to complain about all of them or their balancing issues?

For example the last tournament I went to was dominated by a NG player with a billion fanatics, thousands of hoppers and some great gaming. RaF ruined some V.C. lists, and another Brits horde core cavalry bet up DoC.

Every army book has it strong/weak/balanced points.

So was your point about the V.C. army book is that it can power build ... well congratz, everyone already new that from 6th Ed and before. I've also figured out after about 60 odd games with V.C. magic heavy armylist that they have weak points, but everyone already knows that too so I won't start a thread on it.

Talonz
07-11-2008, 01:38
the Errol Flynn Vampire Lord

Care to expand on what the loadout on this character is?

Colonel Fitzgerald
07-11-2008, 12:38
Run flee bait ... shot ... stab ... magic death? Pick your option. Put big Franks on a griffin and give him a empire list with 2 S.Tanks or just 4 cannons and a lot of H.Rifles.

Duel with an old blood with jag charm and aura of quetzl.

You acting like its the only small target smashy unit in the game.


Dude really what are you trying to say, because you could say this about any armybook. Any book can write up top heavy, power gaming lists, most armybooks can chuck out some sort of CC monster on a large target, are you going to complain about all of them or their balancing issues?

For example the last tournament I went to was dominated by a NG player with a billion fanatics, thousands of hoppers and some great gaming. RaF ruined some V.C. lists, and another Brits horde core cavalry bet up DoC.

Every army book has it strong/weak/balanced points.

So was your point about the V.C. army book is that it can power build ... well congratz, everyone already new that from 6th Ed and before. I've also figured out after about 60 odd games with V.C. magic heavy armylist that they have weak points, but everyone already knows that too so I won't start a thread on it.


My point is that with Vampires you can build a character that can do it all, for actually cheaper than the traditional Monster with Lord as rider build. What I'm trying to say is that yes, whilst armies have their balancing points, they seem to have forgotten to include them with Vampires - this point becomes painfully clear with the Errol Flynn lord. (See below.)



Care to expand on what the loadout on this character is?

The loadout hardly even matters - it's the stats of the lord with either the bat form upgrade or the wolf form Talisman of the Lycni. [That you can take both in the same makes it actually worse..] But the point is that you can take a casting heavy or combat heavy or both-in-equal-measure lord with one of these movement upgrades and, with almost no effort put froth, run rings around the enemy whilst engaging them with throwaway units of zombies to the front - then pop your uber fast character in at the rear of the enemy's formation. Do it either way, raise dead/vanhels spam or combat monster, it works, it works reliably, & there's very little in the game to actually stop it.

Saying things like 'well you could just shoot it' or 'you could just challenge it', whilst effective perhaps if you could - the fact is, you can't shoot what you can't see - you can't challenge him when you've already been challenged by something else in the same combat. Hell, the vampire can pick his moment to the point that he barely needs armour.

I just don't see the need for it - either upgrade. They give way too much to lord characters who can, as has been eloquently put elsewhere, max out on casting or hitting or both. Allowing the Vampires to play the Perils of Errol gives them one advantage too many - one that cannot be reliably countered in-game.

*A note on the term Errol Flynn.

Errol Flynn, that inspiring player of swashbucklers & adventurers of the tight-wearing variety, came to mind to us when Badbones' Ork Boyz fought Voltaire's Chaos Raptors in a deadly, 30 on 5 close combat brawl. The Raptor Champion, armed with his master crafted power weapon and 4 dice in combat, reaped a heavy toll amongst the Orks & was responsible for holding the whole flank of a 2000 points a-side game. Hence, for his heroism, he was dubbed, Errol Flynn, in honour of the now late Robin of Sherwood.
Later, the term Errol Flynn would come to be applied to any independent character who has wings or simply moves around much too fast to actually do anything about, and so can pick his moment much like a hunter might pick off Bambi's mother, like the Autarch with Swooping Hawk Wings, or a Vampire with Bat Form.
So, any time a character steams clear across the battlefield in one turn with a Hulk Hogan glint in his eye & the word 'Huzzah!' still tumbling from his lips & then does something horrible to which there was no effective answer, he too takes up the Errol Flynn mantle & the name lives on.

Ixquic
07-11-2008, 13:29
I think the rest of his kit is very important. A Vampire Lord that is running around by himself is very vulnerable. If he charges anything by himself he's one bounce away from crumbling to death and then it's all over and even in a combined charged there's still the risk. If he's setting himself up for a charge then SOMETHING can see him and should be able to turn and shoot. I'm not saying that a Lord with Red Fury/Eternal Hatred charging from 20" away isn't powerful but I think it's a risky move. Let's say it was pulled off perfectly and he charged into another combat and a challenge was ongoing so he could just slaughter at will and wins running down that unit. He's still by himself afterward and there's plenty of ways to take out a guy standing alone in the middle of the battlefield. I think that if you're willing to take up a risk that could cause your entire army to fade away if it fails it should come with an equally great reward should it work.

In either case you could do that is 6th edition anyway with a Flying Strigoi Lord with 5 strength 6 re-rerolling attacks or a wolf form Von Carstein Lord with a strength 7 great weapon so it's not really new to 7th.

eagletsi1
07-11-2008, 13:48
Colonel: I feel your pain.

They need to do two things to fix the Vamps. I don't think a new book is the answer.


1) They need to say that no saves (Ward, Armour, etc) work versus crumbling
2) Make only Necromancers allowed to cast the same spell in the same phase more then once.

The army would then be fixed with minimal effort.

Mireadur
07-11-2008, 13:55
yep, but it is not going to happen :p

eagletsi1
07-11-2008, 13:59
Yea, When has GW ever admitted they made mistakes? Only once the old Dark Elf book.

Beyond that they say just ignore the overpowerness of the book, and make a playable list.

loveless
07-11-2008, 14:33
Well, maybe no Ward Saves against crumbling, but Regeneration actually makes a sort of "Fantasy Sense" against crumbling. I'm not sure that a magical amulet that mitigates attacks should prevent you from turning to dust, but the ability to put yourself back together certainly should. Though, if said magical talisman from part one simply prevents damage by making bones not break or flesh not tear, then really it should work against crumbling as well. It can go both ways.

Of course, had they said "No armour or ward saves," rules-lawyers would have gone on to say "No regen!", since I think that regeneration is referred to as a special type of ward save in the BRB (don't quote me on this section, I don't take my BRB to work with me).

Jack of Blades
07-11-2008, 14:41
1) They need to say that no saves (Ward, Armour, etc) work versus crumbling
2) Make only Necromancers allowed to cast the same spell in the same phase more then once.

I would gladly house rule those things, but I guess not everyone would...

Ixquic
07-11-2008, 14:45
I would gladly house rule those things, but I guess not everyone would...

Yeah you can count me in the "wouldn't play in such an environment" group.

EvC
07-11-2008, 14:59
Nobody ever, (& I really do mean, ever) has been able to describe to me one single reliable way of beating the Errol Flynn (hungry like the wolf with a charge range of 18" or fly by night bat form) Vampire Lord. They've got tiny wee bases too, making them even better at exploiting small gaps than any fast cavalry or flier out there. This situation has existed since at least 6th ed, with the Von Carstein Wolf Form & the Strigoi Bat Form. Now, in 7th ed, you can do both in the same army &, while you're there, throw in a Blood Knight style guy with 8 lance armed attacks that autohit. :wtf:
The fact that you can nip round the back of your opponent's whole army with what is essentially a quarter of yours by turn two, then use raise dead spam to your little heart's content, is indisputible. Sure, it may not be fair & god knows it's not the best way to make for a fun game, but the fact that the combination exists in the book is enough. Players will do it. There is no effective answer to the tactic.*

*No effective answer.

I don't run that exact setup, but my own Vampire Lady has been caught by herself out in the open on numerous occasions, and died for it. Spells, bolt throwers, all kinds of stuff can take them down. This is a T5 3W model we're talking about here- one that probably doesn't have a good save.

Also dare I say, you can use your own tactics to take down the big guys. After the enemy positions himself, you have your own movement phase to counter that movement. So a Vampire Lord with Bat Form and a gazillion high strength attacks positions himself to take down your general's unit- line up your own units for countercharges, preferably one with a high save. If need be, flee with your general's unit- even if means having them run down: getting the Vampire Lord out in the open to help kill him is well worth sacrificing your own general. The first time I fought against Vampire Counts in 7th edition it was with my High Elves. I lost my Dragon Mage on turn 2. To Fell Bats. And he had a crazy combat Lord. I let him charge a mere spearblock, countercharged with phoenix guard, channelled my magic into giving my spears a ward save, used Vaul's Unmaking to weaken the Lord, etc. There are always options. Vampire Counts do just tend to be a bit stronger than other armies- at 3K it probably can get silly. Try games of 2999 points instead :D

the Khaki Campbell
07-11-2008, 15:41
vamps can be uber but you pay the points, a 500 point lord is allot and you should be able to counter it even if he flys (anvil of doom)(rune of flaksons, slayers) 200 pts easily pays for them (after your lord pts is spent)

The Clairvoyant
07-11-2008, 16:22
i've taken a flying lord before (admittedly, he wasn't my general and was just another lord i had room for)

I had him flying, scouting, causing terror and had the armour of -2 to shoot me (i forget the name!). He was my 'cheese' for a fun cheesey 8000pt game (along with a dragon lord and 2 lords on winged nightmares :D)

Yes he was awesome, started the game halfway across the board in cover then flew out turn one and stood between two units of bret knights. Firstly they were affected by terror and secondly, i wiped out the march moves for several units, and because of where he was positioned, he was in no position to be charged. The -2 to hit armour really came into its own though as he ended up facing the things you don't want to face when you're on your own in the middle of the enemy lines - skirmishing bowmen and repeater bolt throwers. When they're sitting on a hill, it doesn't matter where you stand (unless you're behind a big wall) as you're going to get shot. And get shot is exactly what happened. Like i said, fortunately the archers and RBTs had to contend with the extra minus modifiers and i survived.

That vamp lord did a good job all day (well, it was a 2-day battle, so did a good job both days!) and certainly was well worth the points. I should take him all the time.

But then something else kicks in: self-restraint.

Yes that vampire lord was great, but i've never taken him since. He is a nice luxury (very nice!) but in my normal games i'd never take him (normal to me is 3-4k)
In a 2k point army, he'd never make the cut. I don't care how 'efficient' it is for me to take him or the effect it'll have on my opponents strategy, this is a gentlemans game and so we follow gentlemanly conduct.

If others want to take a flying lord at 2k, thats up to them, but its not my style

Frankly
07-11-2008, 19:16
My point is that with Vampires you can build a character that can do it all, for actually cheaper than the traditional Monster with Lord as rider build. What I'm trying to say is that yes, whilst armies have their balancing points, they seem to have forgotten to include them with Vampires - this point becomes painfully clear with the Errol Flynn lord. (See below.)




I understood your point. But V.C. have balancing points. And course like any other army they have balancing issues as well.

Vampires are extremely costly, decked out lords are extremely costly, skellies are extremely costly for what they can do.

Having a V.C. Lord running around outside of units IS extremely dangerous and if the player wants to play like that, I don't see a problem with it, not with the tactics or the balancing issues(having 20% of your armylist flying around unaided by static CR is ballsy), L.M., WE and in some ways T.K. and DE can do the same.

SolarHammer
07-11-2008, 19:22
I agree with Frankly on all counts.

And I speak as someone who regularly has to contend with:
Vampire Lord
Level 3 Upgrade
Book of Arkhan
Forbidden Lore
Flying Horror
Infinite Hatred
Accursed Armour
Cursed Book
Power Stone

He typically takes Beasts, for Bear's Anger, and when he has S7 T7 A7 and re-rolls misses, you are in for a world of hurt. He's really great for killing Dragon Riders/Greater Daemons with Beast Cowers too.

Frankly
07-11-2008, 19:52
OMG what an animal character!!!

I'm gonna have to find my V.C. book and count up his points cost ... lol!

I've always thought about bear's anger, but I always thought it'd work like this on the table top:

turn 1; 'I cast bears anger' .... 'dispelled'
turn 2; 'I cast bears anger' .... 'dispelled'
turn 3; 'I cast bears anger' .... 'dispelled'
turn 4; 'I cast bears anger' .... 'dispelled'
turn 5; 'I cast bears anger' .... 'dispelled'
turn 6; 'I cast bears anger' .... 'dispel scroll!'

SolarHammer
07-11-2008, 20:05
445.

Sure you think "just dispel Bear's Anger," but that's what the power stone is for. Most opponents won't be expecting it. He uses turns 1 and 2 to draw out the dispel scrolls, then turn 3 he pops the stone and then he uses the book to propel himself into combat. It certainly isn't like the rest of the Vampire army doesn't have anything to draw dispel dice/scrolls. He runs his 2000 point list with 2 other level 2 Vampires, a necromancer (with Vanhels and 2 Power Stones of his own...) and 2 Corpse Carts. So there is magic aplenty to draw that magic defence.

It doesn't work 100% of the time, but I've had my Chaos Lord on Dragon and my Keeper of Secrets chopped up by him a couple of times each, and I've seen him demolish a Treeman Ancient even through an Annoyance of Netlings.

Even without Bears Anger he is more than capable of dealing with war machine crews (even Dwarfs), skirmishers and fast cav, so he still has things to do on turns 1 and 2.

Frankly
07-11-2008, 20:22
445.

Sure you think "just dispel Bear's Anger," but that's what the power stone is for .....

Right right right off course, I thought that was just over kill.

Jack of Blades
07-11-2008, 20:57
Think that's badass? I guess I'll show you what would make a Greater Daemon run for mama. He eats them alive in fact.

Vampire Lord - 440 Points

Red Fury
Forbidden Lore; Lore of Fire
Hand of Dust
Nightshroud
Wristbands of Black Gold
Wizard lvl 3

Support him with other stuff to draw dispel scrolls. You may mount him if you'd like to. For example, mounted on a Winged Nightmare/ZD and supported by a Heavens Wizard carrying a pair of Power Stones, you could cast Portent of Far on him. This is how things will look:

Hit on 2+, wound on 2+, re-roll all 1s to hit and wound, one more attack per unsaved wound caused, eliminates charging bonuses against him (lances etc. will be useless), eliminates ASF against him and reduces any model wishing to attack him to I1. Basically, this means you'll always strike first unless your opponent makes you strike last, and you eliminate all charging bonuses... take that, Star Lance-wielding High Elves! Oh and there's more. He also has a 3+ ward save against literally anything not made in close combat against him. He can inflict 2D6 S5 hits against units in base contact which presumably gets to re-roll 1s to wound thanks to Portent of Far. And you can mount him on a rank-breaking, flying, terror causing monster and if it's a ZD you'll also hit him on a -1 modifier. Oh, and the monster benefits from Portent of Far.

Assuming everything (except Hand of Dust; it's really just there because I love it, you can replace it) goes right, this thing will obliterate whatever's in his path, as long as it isn't immune to flaming attacks (ok HE lords, it's a 1-1 tie...). However, it's more of a one-trick-pony than a reliable outfit as you'd probably guess. Once your opponent knows you're going to do this, he'll expect it and prepare accordingly. But then again you could just overwhelm him anyway... if he's stopping the Lord's magic & Portent of Far, then he isn't stopping the rest, like Power Stoned Comets/Thunderbolts.

Iseult
07-11-2008, 21:54
Bring back the Bad Moon Banner, that'll learn 'em