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View Full Version : WYSIWYG and 'Counts As'



Anton
01-11-2008, 17:51
Hello, I find it quite important to follow WYSIWYG, but I also find it important to have models that look the way I want them to look.

According to WYSIWYG in Warhammer, any armour or a shield you have bought for a model must be visible, as well as any weapons. Mounts must look like what they represent, and barding must be visible.

Magical equipment must only be shown if it also counts as a mundane piece of equipment. For example, a model with a magical spear must only display a spear if the magic weapon actually counts as a spear.

Did I get it right? Anything I missed?
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However, lots of people like freedom when painting/modelling, and I am one of them. 'Counts as' seems to be encouraged when it is done in the spirit of creativity and theme, but not when used to fool opponents.

So, where does the line go? Can I equip my character with a great weapon, even though the model has an ordinary one-handed sword? Maybe it's an especially sharp sword, and especially small great weapon, or the wielder uses a fighting style which would represent the rules for great weapons? Making it not a case of failing to follow WYSIWYG, but rather a case of 'counts as'.

And what about 'borderline' equipment? What about a spear that resembles a lance, or a lance that resembles a spear? What about Full Plate Armour contra Heavy Armour? Who decides what's what?

theunwantedbeing
01-11-2008, 17:52
Looks right to me.

Thommy H
01-11-2008, 18:35
If it causes confusion, then it's wrong. That's the only rule. If a model has a lance, but you didn't pay the points for it then that's confusion - your opponent should be able to see what he's up against during the game. If you pay for a lance but model it as a very sharp hand weapon, that's also a problem unless it looks different enough to act as a memorandum during play (so you'd have to point it out at the start of the game).

When is a spear a lance and a lance a spear? I'm pretty sure there's no examples of units which can get both, so that shouldn't ever be a problem. When is heavy armour full plate? Well, it's only a fairly small difference and I doubt anyone's going to reassess their strategy mid-game based on a character maybe having a 4+ save instead of 5+. Equipment like that is rare enough that you can fudge it. My Chaos Marauders have light armour, despite having bare torsos (I guess it's the shoulder pads...) but I can't imagine anyone taking issue with that.

Anton
01-11-2008, 18:48
So, what of a character with a sword held in one hand. Could it be used as a GW?

KillbotFactory
01-11-2008, 21:04
If a character has a sword in one hand and nothing in the other then it would be fine to represent as a GW. If he has a sword in one hand and a shield in the other then that would be confusing if you then claimed it was GW once in combat.

The real golden rule is to just tell your opponent anything that isn't crystal clear before the game starts.

Braad
01-11-2008, 22:03
If he holds a sword in one hand, but the sword is bigger than the average paintbrush, it is also quite safe to assume a great weapon.

I think its not too strict, as Thommy H says, there can be a very thin line between full plate and heavy armour. But a shield is a shield. That's about it.

I'm not sure if a magic weapon has to represent its mundane counterpart though. For some things, this might give an easy guess for your opponent of what he is carrying...

SolarHammer
01-11-2008, 22:10
A difference between light and heavy armour can be confusing a lot of the time too.

Things like Ogre Maneaters can have either, with no real options for any of the models (I don't think any of the models have anything more than a gutplate).

Also it is confusing across armies, because Skaven light armour is basically a shirt, while High Elf light armour is head to toe Ithilmar chainmail. Elves must be really crappy craftsmen if that armour provides as much protection as a Skaven shirt.

Lord Dan
01-11-2008, 22:18
Interestingly, in the Ogre book it specifically mentions that using other weapons to "represent" things like the sword of striking or the sword of battle is perfectly acceptable.

Anton
01-11-2008, 22:26
Yes, but that's for magic items, which I mentioned earlier.

MrBigMr
01-11-2008, 22:46
I like to do all sorts of conversions and when it comes to things, I think that if you can explain it in a few words with a sound logic, it usually flies. I have a Dwarf Miner champion with a power fist as a steam drill. Why? Power fist doubles your strength, steam drill adds +3 to the Dwarf's strength, which is 3. Every opponent that asked about it at a tournament thought "logical, I can see where you're coming from." One even talked to a judge demanding that I get extra points for conversions on my judging.

I also remember in another tournament a guy got into some argument with judges because his hero had a flail in rules, but not on the model. I suggested that he'd cut the hero's sword into pieces and with a wire make it into a segmented sword. He did it in like 10 minutes, even slapping some paint on it and bang, he got full points for paint, conversion and WYSIWYG.

I have to say the really the only unit that I have that's not WYSIWYG per se are my Dwarf Hammerers. They all have hammers, but not all of them are big, two-handed ones. Also, the champion has a two handed sword, but the rulebook allows it, so I'm not too worried.


As for armour, I don't know. I mean it all depends on the material and such. I would say that a guy with a breast plate or a chain mail would count as light armoured, enything above that would be heavy. But even a fully armoured trooper could be light as the materials could be light and not cover him that well. I think that if there's a distiction between a light and heavy armoured troopers in your army, it doesn't matter if the enemy's light armour is more than your heavy.


Magicks. I guess hat as long as the item type is presented correctly, it doesn't matter. Good thing with daemons is that gifts mutate all the time, so I can have all sorts of gifts without having to models them really. At least that's what I understood from the FAQ. I haven't modelled any of my daemonic gifts and so far no one has whined about it.

Lord Dan
01-11-2008, 23:26
Yes, but that's for magic items, which I mentioned earlier.

Right, but it sort of cues a different point. Who's to say that big halberd-looking thing isn't actually a great weapon?

I never have a problem with proxies or non-WYSIWYG models, so long as my opponent can give me a fluff-supported reason for why the weapon or equipment isn't visible. :p

speedygogo
01-11-2008, 23:43
To be honest WYSIWYG is more of a 40k thing. Most of the awesome fantasy armies IMO are highly converted. About half of fantasy players are not into warhammer for gaming they are more about modeling and converting. "Counts as" models are part of the hobby part of the game.

What irks me is people who do absolutely no painting or modeling ever. Playing against a sea of grey or black primed models sucks. With the high costs of miniatures, I don't see why people don't at least try to paint their heroes.

Cost is another reason "counts as" is great. You can proxy one about to represent another and test play it. Alnong those lines I've seen two or three orcs counting as the warriors of chaos and they have all looked great.

Anton
01-11-2008, 23:51
Right, but it sort of cues a different point. Who's to say that big halberd-looking thing isn't actually a great weapon?
True, I guess they didn't really write that line with this in mind. My guess is that they meant weapons that look like hand weapons.

I never have a problem with proxies or non-WYSIWYG models, so long as my opponent can give me a fluff-supported reason for why the weapon or equipment isn't visible. :p

Good to hear. I am of the same mind. As long as the entire army isn't so 'counts as' that the game becomes hard to play. But that hasn't happened to me.

Lord Dan
02-11-2008, 01:58
True, I guess they didn't really write that line with this in mind. My guess is that they meant weapons that look like hand weapons.
Agreed. I just thought it was an interesting thought.



Good to hear. I am of the same mind. As long as the entire army isn't so 'counts as' that the game becomes hard to play. But that hasn't happened to me.
I used to work in a comics and games store, and once we had a player come in and try to proxy an entire 20-man unit of greatswords with a GF9 movement tray and dice.

He didn't understand our concerns, unfortunately.

Drow__Warrior
02-11-2008, 17:26
*sheds a tear for fat cats comics* :cries:

Anton
04-11-2008, 16:44
What about 'Counts As' in tournaments? For example, using WoC rules to represent an army of Middenheim elite warriors? Or Dwarfs rules to play Chaos Dwarfs? Or as Verm1n's modelling and painting log, using Halflings in an OK army instead of gnoblars?

Griefbringer
04-11-2008, 17:01
What about Full Plate Armour contra Heavy Armour?

Well, going by strict WYSIWYG requirements, one probably could not use the current GW models for Empire greatswords, since it is stretching imagination a tad to claim that they are actually wearing full plate armour. :cool:

Anton
05-11-2008, 14:20
True. And Greatswords aren't the only example of this. But what about my question about 'counts as'?

What about 'Counts As' in tournaments? For example, using WOC rules to represent an army of Middenheim elite warriors? Or Dwarfs rules to play Chaos Dwarfs? Or as Verm1n's modelling and painting log, using Halflings in an OK army instead of gnoblars?

BEEGfrog
05-11-2008, 14:34
What about 'Counts As' in tournaments? For example, using WoC rules to represent an army of Middenheim elite warriors? Or Dwarfs rules to play Chaos Dwarfs? Or as Verm1n's modelling and painting log, using Halflings in an OK army instead of gnoblars?

As long as the "counts as" are clear and other obvious items are either obviously WYSIWYG or not incongruous and part of the "counts as" description it shouldn't be a problem unless differently covered in the tourney house rules.

Lord Dan
05-11-2008, 17:32
*sheds a tear for fat cats comics* :cries:

You're a Fat Cat refugee? Who are you?

N810
05-11-2008, 17:48
sheesh try this with a lizard man saurus character...
to start we have one model for both the Scar-vetern and the old blood.
this model has a shield and a hand weapon only.
this model may take 2 or 3 sacred spawings that are representted by color schemes.
so you may have to paint the poor guy pink purple green and blue to be wysiwyg,
not to mention their are little to no descriptions for any magic items he may take,
and no way he may hold a 2 handed weapon.

So wysiwyg in WHFB is not so relavent or important...
at least by the models that are available to us.

Griefbringer
05-11-2008, 18:15
unless differently covered in the tourney house rules.

Worth checking the tournament rules and, if necessary, getting in touch with the tournament organisers beforehand.

Essentially, organisers of any tournament are free to set what ever rules they want to. If the tournament rules say that all participants are required to wear pink skirts for the duration of the whole event, then you better show up wearing one.