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Lordmonkey
03-11-2008, 10:16
1: It states in the Warriors of Chaos book that models with the Eye of The Gods special rule may roll on the Eye of The Gods table every time they slay an enemy character.

Do unit champions count as characters for the purposes of this rule? In the challenges section of the BRB it states that unit champions are treated exactly like characters while in a challenge.

2: There exists an item* (some sort of amulet) that allows the model bearing it to modify the result of the Eye of The Gods roll by +/- 1 whenever that model rolls on the table.

If I give this to a Chosen Champion (who may be given a magic item), may I modify the free Eye of The Gods roll that they make at the start of the battle using this item? Technically, the whole unit is making the roll, but the unit champion is part of that unit...

*Sorry that I can't remember the name of the item - I only got the book yesterday ^-^

Atrahasis
03-11-2008, 10:35
In the challenges section of the BRB it states that unit champions are treated exactly like characters while in a challenge.No it doesn't.

Champions are not characters.


2: There exists an item* (some sort of amulet) that allows the model bearing it to modify the result of the Eye of The Gods roll by +/- 1 whenever that model rolls on the table.There are several threads about the item on the first page of this forum.

The answer is "not by the rules of the item, but apparently by the intent of the author".

gortexgunnerson
03-11-2008, 10:51
For the first question I would say no as the warchrine has the ability to make all champions within a distance effected by the eye of the gods and hence impies they are not before as though they are treated as chracters they are not characters in the sense of a character selection.

For the second question i'd say no, as the effect is limited to him ("rolled by the bearer").

Goruax
03-11-2008, 22:50
Killing a Champion would grant a roll to a Character, but unless you have a Warshrine, your Champions don't get to roll, since they don't have the "Eye of the Gods" rule.

Champions Issue and Accept Challenges like Characters, which means that if they accept one, they are a Character for the duration of that Challenge.

FigureFour
04-11-2008, 01:49
Killing a Champion would grant a roll to a Character,
This is wrong.

but unless you have a Warshrine, your Champions don't get to roll, since they don't have the "Eye of the Gods" rule.
This is right.

Champions Issue and Accept Challenges like Characters, which means that if they accept one, they are a Character for the duration of that Challenge.
This is made up. They are able to accept challenges like a character. They are not like a character in any other way. They do not become a character in order to accept the challenge.

Lordmonkey
04-11-2008, 08:19
Champions are not characters.

Agreed. I rechecked the wording - it was that bit about "following the rules for characters" that confused me. :D


This is right.

No it isn't - Chosen make the roll without that rule :rolleyes:

The second question was not about the warshrine. The Chosen have a rule that allows them to roll on the table at the start of the battle - note that this is not the same rule as the Eye of The Gods rule.

Now, given that they make a roll on the table, and given that the unit contains a champion with an item that affects any roll made on the Eye of The Gods table "by the bearer", would this allow the unit to modify the roll? If not, would it instead allow the champion to modify the effect upon himself alone?

logan054
04-11-2008, 09:23
what i think is dump is that even unit champions with the eye of the gods rule cant roll on the chart, only characters, Trolls (states in their rules) and scyla can roll on the chart. Makes me wonder is that if the intend was that champions are classed as champions.

One-S
04-11-2008, 15:46
If the book says that models with the Eye of The Gods special rule may roll on the Eye of The Gods table every time they slay an enemy character, then a unit champ with that rule can roll on the table if it slays an enemy character.

I don't have the book, so I can't check the actual wording, but if it 's printed as mentioned in the OP, then champs with the special rule can benefit from this effect.

logan054
04-11-2008, 16:12
the book dosnt state models at all, i suggest you reread, it states model that may issue challenge must issue challanges, its states that characters that kill an enemy character in a challenge or a large target must roll on the eye of the gods table. I do however have the book hence why mentioned it because it is a rather odd thing.

OldMaster
04-11-2008, 17:43
I strongly believe the issue with the Eye of the Gods will be FAQed.
Maybe I'm being too positive, but letting the champions roll on the table and for killing unit champions, too, would be a major buff for the book.

Mireadur
04-11-2008, 18:55
IF you dont get a roll for killing enemy champs then the rule is more like O&G animosity than an army buff, since your chars will be killing champions most of the time.

logan054
04-11-2008, 19:34
It does however seem strange (as i said) that unit champions with the eye of the gods rule dont get to roll on the eye of the gods table if they kill a enemy character (which might suggest that character is meant to include champion). I actually dont think it would be such a bad thing if you got to roll for killing champions, it might mean enemy characters actually have to fight them or risk the exalted champion becoming even more power, in other words people couldnt just accept with unit champions and the heroes never get to see the chart (making the eye of the gods pretty worthless). The only way they would see a roll is if you could goad someone into accepting with hero.

Lordmonkey
05-11-2008, 07:25
It does however seem strange (as i said) that unit champions with the eye of the gods rule dont get to roll on the eye of the gods table if they kill a enemy character

It would, if there actually existed a non-character with the Eye of the Gods rule...

But there doesn't. Chosen do not have Eye of The Gods. They simply get one free roll on the table before the battle begins.

To reiterate...


Now, given that they make a roll on the table, and given that the unit contains a champion with an item that affects any roll made on the Eye of The Gods table "by the bearer", would this allow the unit to modify the roll? If not, would it instead allow the champion to modify the effect upon himself alone?

Atrahasis
05-11-2008, 08:15
There do exist non-characters with the Eye of the Gods rule - as long as there is a war shrine on the table.

Whitehorn
05-11-2008, 10:41
I strongly believe the issue with the Eye of the Gods will be FAQed.
Maybe I'm being too positive, but letting the champions roll on the table and for killing unit champions, too, would be a major buff for the book.

I'm not sure it's required at all.

Since the Warshrine grants the ability, what's the point if all 'models' have the effect anyway?

Only models with Eye of the Gods get to roll for killing a character.

To answer Monkey. The chosen champion cannot modify the unit's roll, but if you have a warshrine and the champion kills a character in a challenge, then he or she may affect THAT roll. Assuming he has the item.

logan054
05-11-2008, 10:54
It would, if there actually existed a non-character with the Eye of the Gods rule...

Unit champions with a warshrine in the army have the eye of the gods rule, they are not characters, this is why i mentioned it, to reiterate...


It does however seem strange (as i said) that unit champions with the eye of the gods rule dont get to roll on the eye of the gods table if they kill a enemy character (which might suggest that character is meant to include champion)

My mistake here was assuming people would take into account that for them to have the eye of the gods rule the rule is on the table and this creates this rather strange thing.

Atrahasis
05-11-2008, 11:21
The chosen champion cannot modify the unit's roll, but if you have a warshrine and the champion kills a character in a challenge, then he or she may affect THAT roll. Assuming he has the item.

Champions do not get to roll on the Eye table for killing characters, only characters do, even if the champion has the rule.

Whitehorn
05-11-2008, 12:24
Well then that clears up that item being useless to Chosen then.

So, Warshrines simply force all champions to challenge :/

FigureFour
05-11-2008, 13:57
To answer Monkey. The chosen champion cannot modify the unit's roll, but if you have a warshrine and the champion kills a character in a challenge, then he or she may affect THAT roll. Assuming he has the item.

By RAW the champion cannot modify the units roll, but the army book's author has implied that it was intended to.


Well then that clears up that item being useless to Chosen then.

So, Warshrines simply force all champions to challenge :/
No. Champions are already forced to challenge by the Eye of the Gods rule. The Warshrine allows champions to roll on the Eye of the Gods chart when they kill a character in a challenge or a large target as if they were a character. This would allow him to use the Favour of the Gods to modify that roll.

Goruax
05-11-2008, 14:14
I fail to see why the Unit Champion cannot affect the Unit roll.
They are an inseperable part of the unit, and they gain the benefit of the unit's roll, thusly it is 'theirs' as well as the rest of the unit's.

It can be seen either way TBH.

FigureFour
05-11-2008, 14:43
I fail to see why the Unit Champion cannot affect the Unit roll.
They are an inseperable part of the unit, and they gain the benefit of the unit's roll, thusly it is 'theirs' as well as the rest of the unit's.

It can be seen either way TBH.
Because he doesn't make the roll, the unit does.
He may be a part of the unit, but he is not the unit. GW has made it clear that the effects of the item do not stretch beyond their bearer unless it explicitly says so. Even in the case where they are the same MODEL, like a rider and mount, and the item says it effects the model.

If it doesn't say it effects the unit, than it doesn't.

Some people have argued that he could modify a part of the roll, and thus wind up with a different result than the rest of the unit, but both cases are obviously stretching the wording.

However, like I said, Phill Kelly (at least I think it was Phill Kelly) has said that when he wrote the book he intended a champion to be able to use it to modify the units roll.

Whitehorn
05-11-2008, 15:24
No. Champions are already forced to challenge by the Eye of the Gods rule.

Please explain why and how? Champions don't have Eye of the Gods...


The Warshrine allows champions to roll on the Eye of the Gods chart when they kill a character in a challenge or a large target as if they were a character. This would allow him to use the Favour of the Gods to modify that roll.

As mentioned before it clearly states CHARACTERS can roll on it when they kill. Before it states MODEL in regards to challenges. How is a champion a character?

logan054
05-11-2008, 17:41
Please explain why and how? Champions don't have Eye of the Gods...

It states you need the eye of the gods rule and need to be a character to roll on the chart, it just says "all models that may challenge must challenge". In other words the rule says the Eotg rule is a requirement to roll on the chart (well part of), it is not a requirement to have the forced challenge rule, will of chaos is also worded in a similar way.




As mentioned before it clearly states CHARACTERS can roll on it when they kill. Before it states MODEL in regards to challenges. How is a champion a character?

I do wonder if its meant to include champions otherwise it is a very lame rule that effectively screws chaos players over.

FigureFour
05-11-2008, 17:48
Please explain why and how? Champions don't have Eye of the Gods...
It's actually a little contentious. However, the Eye of the Gods rule is worded in a way that makes it seem like it applies to models without the rule. It needs to be FAQed.


It states you need the eye of the gods rule and need to be a character to roll on the chart, it just says "all models that may challenge must challenge". In other words the rule says the Eotg rule is a requirement to roll on the chart (well part of), it is not a requirement to have the forced challenge rule, will of chaos is also worded in a similar way.

What he said.


As mentioned before it clearly states CHARACTERS can roll on it when they kill. Before it states MODEL in regards to challenges. How is a champion a character?

The Warshrine does NOT give champions the Eye of the Gods rule. It does allow them to roll on the Eye of the Gods TABLE as if they were a character with the Eye of the Gods rule.

Sort of confusing, but if you read the Warshrine's rules there's really no doubt. It explicitly states it lets champions roll on the table like characters.

Atrahasis
05-11-2008, 18:12
The Warshrine does NOT give champions the Eye of the Gods rule. It does allow them to roll on the Eye of the Gods TABLE as if they were a character with the Eye of the Gods rule.I'm sorry, but the Warshrines rules do not say that at all. It gives champions the EotG rule, and allows ONE UNIT to roll on the table.

FigureFour
05-11-2008, 18:44
I'm sorry, but the Warshrines rules do not say that at all. It gives champions the EotG rule, and allows ONE UNIT to roll on the table.

Hmmm . . . I'm going to have to check my book again then. It's possible I'm full of ****.

If so, that's a hilariously poorly written rule.

Ivan the Black
05-11-2008, 19:10
To take this thread in a slightly different direction, if you have a character with the Eye of the Gods rule and a champion in a unit (and no Warshrine is anywhere near them), can the champion declare a challenge or does the rule stating that the character with the Eye of the Gods "must declare a challenge if possible" take precedenc? In other words, does the rule force the character to declare (or accept) a challenge before the champion is allowed to exercise it's optional challenge?

Thanks.

logan054
05-11-2008, 20:10
Yes i believe the unit champion can issue a challenge because if both models have to issue a challenge then you just choose which model is issuing it.

Ivan the Black
05-11-2008, 21:33
logan054,

That's just it. The champion does not have to issue a challenge. He has the ability to, but nothing says that he has to. The character does have to issue a challenge if possible. The question is whether the champion can issue his optional challenge first, therefore meaning that there's already a challenge in the combat so the character can't issue one, or whether the Eye of the God's rule forces the hero to issue the challenge before the champion can do so.

g0ddy
06-11-2008, 03:18
Many of the rules surrounding this whole EotG debackle.. get a whole lot simpler and sensible if you consider champions to be characters....

~ zilla

Lordmonkey
06-11-2008, 07:38
Many of the rules surrounding this whole EotG debackle.. get a whole lot simpler and sensible if you break the rules

Yes, well, that would defeat the object of having the discussion.

madden
06-11-2008, 08:31
So doesa caracter who kills an enemy unit champ get a roll on the table or not?

Atrahasis
06-11-2008, 08:45
No, because champions are not characters, though if the champion was a large target he would (Thunderlords being the only example I can think of).

Whitehorn
06-11-2008, 09:11
I wish people would actually read the rule(s) before saying something 'explicitly states' what it clearly doesn't :P

The Eye of the Gods rule has its own paragraph and then a separate one below it. Does that second paragraph apply to the rule or is it independent?

Let's agree on a few things before moving on.

The definition 'character' does not include unit champions. They fight 'as if characters' but they are not characters. This means they can fight challenges and be allocated hits separate from the 'rest' of a unit. Since they can fight challenges, this is the headache with the rule...

The chaos book says any model that can challenge, must do so. BUT, this is stated in the Eye of the Gods rule. This implies only 'models' with Eye of the Gods must always challenge where able to. This includes champions ONLY if you have a Warshrine on the table.

Killing a champion is not killing a character, so does not give you a roll on the EotG table.

A champion killing a character is NOT a character killing a character (or large target). So, a Warshrine giving EotG to champions RAW simply forces all champions to challenge. RAI really needs to be FAQed.

Case: You have a champion and a character in a unit. The character must challenge if able to. It does not state his challenge overrides or take precedence over that of another - probably because it would cause an issue with 2+ characters being involved. So if a champion challenges, that character is thus unable to challenge. This allows you to stop your sorcerers committing suicide.

Please say if anything above is not correct.

logan054
06-11-2008, 10:54
logan054,

That's just it. The champion does not have to issue a challenge. He has the ability to, but nothing says that he has to. The character does have to issue a challenge if possible. The question is whether the champion can issue his optional challenge first, therefore meaning that there's already a challenge in the combat so the character can't issue one, or whether the Eye of the God's rule forces the hero to issue the challenge before the champion can do so.

Aside from the eye of the gods rule, any model that may issue a challenge must, if you continue to read (guess i need to repeat this again) characters with the eye of the gods rule who kill a character in challenge or kill a large target roll on the eye of the gods table.

At no point does it say that you eye of the gods rule is required for the forced challenge rule, if you real will of chaos again its states you need to will of gods rule to get reroll painc tests. Why do i mention this? its because its a example of how he has written a different roll, looking at this it tells us that he will state if you need a rule written within the unit/model entry in order to have it.

Atrahasis
06-11-2008, 11:06
The rules for the Biting Blade say that "any blows struck" are at an additional -1 to armour saves.

You can't apply rules to models that don't have that rule.

fredster4050
06-11-2008, 11:57
The question to ask is; When a Warshrine is in play did Phil Kelly intend Unit Champions to 1) Always declare challenges 2) Then benefit if successful.

The wording around champions 'fighting as if characters' in the WFB rulebook is confusing the situation, having read the thread it will be interpreted differently by different players.
For optimistic Chaos players it will mean that (Warshrined) Champions will get a roll on the table if they kill a 'character' and that the term character could mean both real characters and enemy unit champions. i.e

Unit Champion kills Unit Champion - Roll
Unit Champion kills Character - Roll
Character Kills Unit Champion - Roll
Character kills Character - Roll

That will be countered by others saying EOTG forces all characters and champions to challenge but that you only the character derives a roll if you kill another character i.e.

Unit Champion kills Unit Champion - Do not Roll
Unit Champion kills Character - Do not Roll
Character Kills Unit Champion - Do not Roll
Character kills Character - Roll

Also challenges are not issued by units but individuals therefore in a unit with a sorcerer and a unit champion both must declare a challenge if the EOTG rule is in play. Who accepts each challenge is up to your opponent.

Atrahasis
06-11-2008, 12:42
You can only declare one challenge per round per combat, and only one challenge can be ongoing per combat.

logan054
06-11-2008, 15:09
The rules for the Biting Blade say that "any blows struck" are at an additional -1 to armour saves.

You can't apply rules to models that don't have that rule.

glad you didnt use a ridiculous example which really isnt the same thing, by that line of thinking orcs and goblins dont need to test for animosity as they dont have the rule either.

Atrahasis
06-11-2008, 15:38
No, because Animosity is listed as an Army Special Rule, and specifically says that each unit must roll.

Eye of the Gods is a Special Rule (not an Army Special Rule) and so applies only to the models that have it.

logan054
06-11-2008, 16:08
Thats funny i thought it was army special rule section i was looking at in the warriors of chaos book, oh wait, i am! btw looking at the wording reminds me of something, might be the eye of the gods rules:


all your units on the table are subject to animosity

(im not writing out the whole rule)


Chaos models that may issue a challenge must do so whenever possible

I see nothing here that states you need the rule list unlike will of chaos


units with this special rule always reroll failed panic tests

Its worded in a very different way isnt it

Do i really need continue.

Atrahasis
06-11-2008, 16:16
It doesn't say "army special rule(s)" anywhere on page 43. In fact, it specifically says that the rules given apply to "particular models".

Harwammer
06-11-2008, 18:15
IF chaos champions ARE forced to challenge (on the basis of they are chaos models that may challenge), then how far does this logic go?

E.g. in a chaos versus chaos match, say warriors versus daemons, are daemonic characters going to be forced to issue/not refuse challenges? afterall they are chaos models that may challenge!


Edit: Question: Is the paragraph 2, columb 2 part of the Eye of the Gods subheading, or is it just an untitled part of the 'special rules' heading?

It seems to me champions are always meant to challenge, shrine or not (especially as you will always have at least one model with the eye of the gods special rule in the army).

Also, here is my proposed tempory errata, 'when a character with the eye of the gods special rule...' change 'character' to 'model'. This means there is reason for the shrine giving the eye of the gods rule to champion.

I think this is one of those situations where the rules are just wrong/lacking. Such as the teclis not being an elven mage* or the old HoC 'Poxes' spell RAW being a buff you could only cast on enemy units (subtracting minus one from a stat is the same as adding plus one, so +1Ws, Bs, S and Ld for an enemy unit. YAY!).

*I still think he doesn't deserve +1 to dispel, he can go hang with those dragon mage dossers ;)!

g0ddy
06-11-2008, 18:47
Le sigh...

Whether or not a champion is a character is quite subjective.

"Many of the rules surrounding this whole EotG debacle.. get a whole lot simpler and sensible if you consider champions to be characters...."

Quoting me and adding "break the rules" at the end of my statement is rather unhelpful.

Champions "act like" (I could honestly careless if you think using the term "act like" is accurate.. as it is irrelevant) characters in certain circumstances. The intent of my statement was to make "EotG" one of these circumstances where champions act like characters, when you do that everything starts to make sense. Whether or not champions are characters or not... or simply "take on" some aspects of being a character in some circumstances (in the normal scope of the game - EotG excluded) is quite irrelevant to my statement and the discussion at hand.

To be perfectly honest, the term "character" and , like wise in 40k, "upgrade character" serve little or no purpose in the game and only lead to confusion.

Lords and Heros are generally "characters" or act like them, with some exceptions, as are some monsters, again with some exceptions. Champions again fall under this balloon statement, whether or not they are "characters" is irrelevant it is just a useful way of thinking about them. If you take all of these things and group them together and call them "Pineapples". Then you take "Pineapples" and insert our new term into the rules for Eye of the Gods :

"When a Pineapple kills/defeats another Pineapple or a Large target, he is granted a boon by his patron god and may then roll on the following table."

And for warshrines :

"All unit champions in the army now qualify as "Pineapples" for the purposes of warshrines, and eye of the gods."

I realize this is not exactly what either of the two rules state exactly, but it fairly accurately portrays the intent of what is supposed to be going on here. As it stands the rules as they are written make very little sense if you start worrying about what exact terms are being used. The intent is there and I'm simply trying to highlight what it is.

Now this isnt perfect as it starts to open up a few more issues most notably, now we have a circumstance where a unit champion can miraculously become stubborn, how does this effect his unit? But that in all honesty is something people can work out on their own - maybe it has no effect, in the end it is rather moot.

Whitehorn
06-11-2008, 19:00
But what use would a Warshrine be if Pineapples are already considered pineapples? When are they prawns?

Mireadur
06-11-2008, 19:15
Le sigh...

Whether or not a champion is a character is quite subjective.

"Many of the rules surrounding this whole EotG debacle.. get a whole lot simpler and sensible if you consider champions to be characters...."

Quoting me and adding "break the rules" at the end of my statement is rather unhelpful.

Champions "act like" (I could honestly careless if you think using the term "act like" is accurate.. as it is irrelevant) characters in certain circumstances. The intent of my statement was to make "EotG" one of these circumstances where champions act like characters, when you do that everything starts to make sense. Whether or not champions are characters or not... or simply "take on" some aspects of being a character in some circumstances (in the normal scope of the game - EotG excluded) is quite irrelevant to my statement and the discussion at hand.

To be perfectly honest, the term "character" and , like wise in 40k, "upgrade character" serve little or no purpose in the game and only lead to confusion.

Lords and Heros are generally "characters" or act like them, with some exceptions, as are some monsters, again with some exceptions. Champions again fall under this balloon statement, whether or not they are "characters" is irrelevant it is just a useful way of thinking about them. If you take all of these things and group them together and call them "Pineapples". Then you take "Pineapples" and insert our new term into the rules for Eye of the Gods :

"When a Pineapple kills/defeats another Pineapple or a Large target, he is granted a boon by his patron god and may then roll on the following table."

And for warshrines :

"All unit champions in the army now qualify as "Pineapples" for the purposes of warshrines, and eye of the gods."

I realize this is not exactly what either of the two rules state exactly, but it fairly accurately portrays the intent of what is supposed to be going on here. As it stands the rules as they are written make very little sense if you start worrying about what exact terms are being used. The intent is there and I'm simply trying to highlight what it is.

Now this isnt perfect as it starts to open up a few more issues most notably, now we have a circumstance where a unit champion can miraculously become stubborn, how does this effect his unit? But that in all honesty is something people can work out on their own - maybe it has no effect, in the end it is rather moot.

This is what everybody believes in truth (even Phill kelly at some point, although some people now say he negates the previous position).

I think that people pointing out how RAW says different (which i agree) have lost their perspective at some point and although there was a time they would agree with your post, they are now encassed into the RAW position and thus opposing.

Anyway i have a bad feeling the FAQ is going to ''FUQ'' what is a nice rule atm (applying it from the perspective that unit champions grant an EOTG roll to your own characters). Maybe they started having games at the studio and saw the list was ''too strong''? Teehee.

I really have issues to understand how definitely overpowered rules get FAQ'ed to be even more powerful/annoying (see WE annoyance of the nettlings or daemons). While others get smashed in the FAQ's for no reason (HE white lion cloaks or supposedly the EOTG).

Thommy H
06-11-2008, 19:15
This is how I interpret things:

1) According to the Eye of the Gods rule, all things in a Chaos Warrior army that can challenge must challenge. This is just how Chaos conducts itself (and rightly so).

2) The Eye of the Gods rule also states that things which have this specific rule can roll on the table when they kill "an enemy character" in challenge, or a large target in any circumstances. I read this as "if win a challenge, you get to roll". I know enemy Champions aren't proper "characters", but I think the wording is just trying to get around the idea that you don't really "win" challenges (there's no provision in the rulebook for this circumstance), which is what's intended. You kill the other guy, you roll.

3) The Warshrine extends 2 to apply to unit champions too, which it currently doesn't. 1 does - because 1 applies to everything in the army, including champions and Daemon Princes - but 2 only applies to models which have the "Eye of the Gods" rule listed.

The mistake here was putting the thing about everyone having to challenge whenever they can in with a rule which doesn't apply to everyone.

Mireadur
06-11-2008, 19:20
This is how I interpret things:

1) According to the Eye of the Gods rule, all things in a Chaos Warrior army that can challenge must challenge. This is just how Chaos conducts itself (and rightly so).

2) The Eye of the Gods rule also states that things which have this specific rule can roll on the table when they kill "an enemy character" in challenge, or a large target in any circumstances. I read this as "if win a challenge, you get to roll". I know enemy Champions aren't proper "characters", but I think the wording is just trying to get around the idea that you don't really "win" challenges (there's no provision in the rulebook for this circumstance), which is what's intended. You kill the other guy, you roll.

3) The Warshrine extends 2 to apply to unit champions too, which it currently doesn't. 1 does - because 1 applies to everything in the army, including champions and Daemon Princes - but 2 only applies to models which have the "Eye of the Gods" rule listed.

The mistake here was putting the thing about everyone having to challenge whenever they can in with a rule which doesn't apply to everyone.

Really nice catch Thommy... Really good observation.

Angelust
06-11-2008, 19:35
I don't post often, but a couple things that have not been mentioned yet but which may be pertinent...

1) Phil Kelly, in his WD Battle Report, rolled EotG when his characters killed dwarven unit champions.
1a) I know that it is VERY clear that WD does not represent an accurate demonstration of the rules, and that it has made numerous mistakes consistently in past issues
1b) However, seeing as it's Phil Kelly who is playing the Chaos army, I think it's quite clear that at the time of the Battle Report game, Phil Kelly obviously INTENDED the rules to give chaos characters with EotG a roll on the table when they won any challenge whatsoever, including lowly unit champions.
1c) RAW = clearly no roll for killing unit champions. RAI = clearly roll for killing unit champions, as displayed by the author's own interpretation of his own rules.
1d) Although we're generally instructed to interpret by RAW, which instructs the reader to treat the text as an artifact distinct from the author's intent, it's my personal literary philosophy that text-as-artifact view to a set of rules/laws that multiple readers must agree upon is completely untenable. This is the ridiculous paradox that GW proposed, and it leads to ridiculous rules-lawyering situations. Likewise reader-response view towards a text is unusable when trying to agree upon a text in praxis.

The Chaos Warshrine thing seems like an obvious result of ambiguity in the wording of the rules, but it seems obvious the warshrine was intended to both force the champions to challenge and allow them the chance of the benefits if they win the challenge. I understand that strict RAW may prevent this however.

Personally, when I play a game with my chaos army, I'm going to tell my opponent of the rules situation, and I'm going to inform him of what the author's intent clearly seemed to be, and I'm going to play the way he wants. Most all of the guys I end up playing games with couldn't give a fig about these ridiculous RAW nuances and just want to start playing.

FigureFour
06-11-2008, 19:51
I don't post often, but a couple things that have not been mentioned yet but which may be pertinent...

I'm pretty sure these things were all mentioned before.
It's also been pointed out that White Dwarf battle reports are often played with early test versions of the rules and that when Phill Kelly was asked about this very question he said that rolling for killing unit champions was too powerfull and was not how it should be played.

Sounds like the White Dwarf report was a playtest game and that it's outcome influenced the final ruling.

Atrahasis
06-11-2008, 19:54
WordsYeah, if you just make stuff up it works fine.

Angelust
06-11-2008, 19:57
I'm pretty sure these things were all mentioned before.
It's also been pointed out that White Dwarf battle reports are often played with early test versions of the rules and that when Phill Kelly was asked about this very question he said that rolling for killing unit champions was too powerfull and was not how it should be played.

Sounds like the White Dwarf report was a playtest game and that it's outcome influenced the final ruling.

Ah. I didn't realize Kelly made a statement like that. That reverses my opinion entirely then. Where did he say/write that?

Atrahasis
06-11-2008, 20:45
In a private exchange with the Polish tournament community.

g0ddy
06-11-2008, 20:46
Yeah, if you just make stuff up it works fine.

Thank you for such an eloquently written post. Thank you you enlightening me, I have now lost all respect for the Direwolf FAQ council.

-----

I am glad to hear that some others appreciate my position on this...
Maybe in a few more weeks of RAW Mining some others here can come to some sort of solution that satisfies themselves.

Tommy_H - pretty much spot on, seems to me to be the best way to play it as well.

I am aware of the battle report issue, I am also aware of the 'faq' phil kelly had posted on the GW warhammer forums talking about it and suggesting that champions shouldn't grant EotG buffs. I dont personally agree with this however, my position on it being somewhat reinforced by my other thoughts though. If enemy champions do not qualify to grant bonuses to chaos heros (or whomever the rule applies to) it in (my view) opens the door to a lot of shall we say 'anti-fluff shenanigans' (Players are encouraged to feed unit champions to your heros etc). The other aspect of this train of thought that bugs me the most is in a situation where a unit champion (Warshrine as appropriate) is fighting an enemy champion - and the associated EotG (or lack there of) benefits, that in my opinion detract from the intent.

Another thing that was mentioned in said FAQ (which someone else may have already brought up) was whether or not 'Favoured of the Gods' on a Chosen Unit Champion could be used to modify the rolls for the unit (A: Yes)

~ zilla

logan054
06-11-2008, 21:18
It doesn't say "army special rule(s)" anywhere on page 43. In fact, it specifically says that the rules given apply to "particular models".

You are correct, the and the forced challenge rule is given to any model that can challenge, thats the requirement, i'll be honest, im not going to trust the word of someone who tried to claim a warshrine gets +1 attack for additional hand weapon because it has the letter s, i think that speaks leeps and bounds about you interpretations of rules

@ Angelust: i think you forgot to say apparently in front of phil kelly, i assume this is the same text that had him not knowing the bases sizes for models which means one of two things

1) it simply wasnt him or someone has edited the answers he didnt like
2) it was someone speaking on his behalf
3) finished the army without even testing it otherwise how could he not know the base size of a disc rider.

Aside that it really makes no sense to have a fluffy rule like eye of the gods not applied in a fluffy way to unit champions (ie rolling on the chart)

Havock
06-11-2008, 21:38
If you must challenge whenever possible, isn't it just fair that you get the benefit out of it as well? ;)

Harwammer
06-11-2008, 23:22
Maybe champions are forced to challenge but don't get benefits from eye of the gods because try as they might, their efforts to please the gods are futile?

Only when a warshine is about to peak their interest are Gods intended to pay attention to the little ants that are unit champions.

slightly OT: I'm not really too pleased this guy is writing the new beasts list. I don't think he has what it takes to complete all the work it currently needs. Despite the fact he has been given well over a year to write it (according to FAQ).

Shamfrit
06-11-2008, 23:48
Precisely Havock/Harwammer.

We're forced to challenge...now, having a 12 attack Lord running around is great, but when that Lord has to challenge, and have his combat capped at +5CR and subsequently that unit retains pretty much all of it's ranks, we should get the benefit of killing another champion in the name of the Blood God...

Obviously, it's Raw/vs./Rai yet again, I for one am going for the unit champions are characters approach, in much the same way that Exarchs are in 40k, however, they're not Independant characters...I think that draws the line about...I dunno, it's a hard one, FAQ will see us through.

I will play it how my opponent interprets it once I read the rule to them, simple as.

Any problems? Roll.

I don't use combat characters anyway so frankly :D

Lordmonkey
07-11-2008, 08:12
Quoting me and adding "break the rules" at the end of my statement is rather unhelpful.

Right, but it's helpful if you don't bother to back up your statements with reasoning is it? If you decide something but cannot justify it within the rules, you are breaking them. Bear in mind that this is a rules discussion, not a "I prefer to do this" discussion.

It would indeed be nice to do what you suggest, and consider champions to be characters. In fact, I agree with your opinion that champions should be considered characters for the purposes of challenge.

But, if it were that simple, this discussion would not exist in the first place. There are no reasons, by RAW, to say that a champion is a character. Therefore he is not.


If you must challenge whenever possible, isn't it just fair that you get the benefit out of it as well? ;)

A Blood Knight Kastellan must always issue a challenge. Wheres the advantage there?

This needs an FAQ.

**Edit**


I don't use combat characters anyway so frankly :D

Dirty dang wizard :p

fredster4050
07-11-2008, 09:32
Given the heat in this debate and the Hellcannon move and fire debate, any ideas when FAQ's are due to be published?

Atrahasis
07-11-2008, 09:38
The list being compiled will be submitted on or after 30th November, so a while yet.

logan054
07-11-2008, 10:45
If you must challenge whenever possible, isn't it just fair that you get the benefit out of it as well? ;)

You mean when any bright spark just accepts with his champion and chaos character has to waste his attacks on a single model while the other guys character gets to rain death upon you unit. I dont think you have thought about this much have you


Precisely Havock/Harwammer.

We're forced to challenge...now, having a 12 attack Lord running around is great, but when that Lord has to challenge, and have his combat capped at +5CR and subsequently that unit retains pretty much all of it's ranks, we should get the benefit of killing another champion in the name of the Blood God...

thats exactly it, it will also effect wizards who have to challenge enemies combat lords, so it will effect you :P

gormthegreat
08-11-2008, 20:36
Having read this entire topic and checked the wording in the rulebok and army book I am of the opinion the rule is "intended" to mean the following:

Chaos unit champions must issue challenges where possible But are not forced to accept. (Though I would for character sake.) (this rule adds character to the army and also follows the wording in the EotG section.)

Chaos characters i.e. ones that specifically have the EotG rule in their special rules list must issue AND accept challenges and gain a roll from the EotG table for their trouble. This would include killing unit champions as the aforementioned negatives for having your lord trapped fitting a unit champion when he could wipe a rank off a unit are obvious. I understand this part is not exactly RAW and if agreed w/ an opponent would have no problem saying enemy champions don't confer a roll, mainly due to the wording in the challenges section of the rulebook.

The Warshine forces unit champions to accept challenges and gives them a roll on the EotG table for their trouble.

GodlessM
08-11-2008, 21:35
That's just ripping a rule apart