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Da Boyzz
05-11-2008, 08:31
Last edition Slaanesh was near the best lore in the game, tzeentch was also good for its direct damage.

This edition Why am I only hearing about tzeentch magic and nothing at all of Slaanesh, formerly I very good lore?

I was thinking Slaanesh should be still up there, picture the Slaanesh movement manipulation coupled with a Khorne/Slaanesh army, so that my sorcerers move the opposition into place for tactical frenzy charges, while my Slaanesh warriors travel across the board behind the marauders and dogs free of panic.

What is BAD about Slaanesh in comparrison to tzeentch this book compared to last?

Ward.
05-11-2008, 08:46
I had this same debate a few weeks ago, can't remember with who though.

Nicha11
05-11-2008, 08:47
Slaanesh loses much of it's power against VC and Demons the two most
common (and some say overpowered) armies.

And Tzeentch has potentially the scariest spell in the game (Gateway).

Da Boyzz
05-11-2008, 09:19
Last time i played a game of fantasy was before VC release, around january so why is it that it loses power against VC and deamons? sorry for stupid question.

The Lore has not actually changed with the book am I right? So i cannot see how its powers of manipulation would not be still as clinical and useful as ever.

Nicha11
05-11-2008, 09:23
VC and Demons are immune to pyschology

2 of the Slaneesh spells only effect units that are not immune to psychology

And one spell makes your a unit cause fear, relatively useless against immune to psychology.

And one spel cause an enemy unit to take a panic test, against pretty useless against immune to pyschology.

Lord Malorne
05-11-2008, 09:44
Very true, it is because the Slaanesh lore is more focused than the Tzeentch one (I used to play Tzeentch so yay!) as the Tzeentch one is a lot more versatile, normaly it would not matter but with all these ITP armies popping up (2 of 5 players here...I do WE so 3 of 5 really, then there is the lizards...:p) so Tzeentch is more...useful.

bork da basher
05-11-2008, 10:45
tzeentch is easier to cast and generally is alot more destructive damage wise, slaanesh can work wonders tactically but its circumstantial alot of the time and thus hit or miss, with tzeentch theres nothing like hurling tonnes of magic missiles about or getting an entire unit to attack itself (cant wait to try that out on nice elite units like white lions or swordmasters) or the game winner than eternal gateway can be. its more bang for your buck basically and far more versatile against every army wheras slaanesh is fairly useless against ITP armies etc.

HraTaika
05-11-2008, 10:49
I was thinking something like this for
my 2000pts heavy magic / cavalry list.
Do you think it could work?


Chaos Sorcerer @ 215pts
Mark of Tzeentch, Demonic Mount
Level II, Staff of Sorcery

Chaos Sorcerer @ 215pts
Mark of Tzeentch, Demonic Mount
Level II, Power Familiar

Chaos Sorcerer @ 215pts
Mark of Tzeentch, Demonic Mount
Level II, Scroll

Chaos Sorcerer @ 215pts
Mark of Tzeentch, Demonic Mount
Level II, Scroll



That's 860 points,
12 power dice and 6 dispel dice.

Neknoh
05-11-2008, 11:19
I would most deffinately get ridd of the scrolls and the Staff of Sorcery, 6 dispell dice should leave you with enough dice since there are a few items you forgot to put in.

Infernal Puppet, Blood of Tzeentch, Book of Seecrets and Conjoined Homunculus.

Blood on one, Puppet goes on another, Book of Seecrets on your third, Homunculus goes on either Book or Blood guy.

HraTaika
05-11-2008, 12:45
I've checked the armybook on those items,
do you think they will really be useful?

Also, I guess I might have too many points
on those sorcerers, maybe I drop in favor of
more horsemen or knights?

EvC
05-11-2008, 12:46
Add: Staff of Katam to one. Infernal Puppet to another. Easily done by removing the Staff of Sorcery and moving a scroll onto the guy with power familiar. Why all the Daemonic Mounts though?

Neknoh
05-11-2008, 12:52
Those items WILL be useful, Conjoined Homunculus and Blood of Tzeentch both raise the chances of casting, they can be put on the same character or on different characters. The Infernal Puppet is actually a MUST in magic heavy armies, what you should remember is that you can not only change the rolls of your opponent, you can change your OWN miscasts as well, this item can make or break entire magic phases (make yours, break theirs).

The book is a Spell Familliar that generates a powerdice, and as such, it gets a plus from me, it can be a very effective way to add another magic missile, for, if combined with the Homunculus, you should be able to cast any of the basic spells of the three lores of Death, Shadow or Fire on a single dice with guaranteed success.

Skull of Katam is another possibillity to add as well, on that I agree, however, I would hesitate in NOT breaking out the Blood of Tzeentch when you have four casters in the army, one should go with it in my opinnion, simple as that.

HraTaika
05-11-2008, 13:09
Ah, understood.

Not that familiar with the magic system
in FB, but I'll trust your word Neknoh and
add them to the list.

Oh and the mounts are there because of the
full cavalry theme and to keep the sorcerers
away from the harms way.


EDIT:
What do you mean by the Homonculus? I can't
find it in the book, do you mean the Spell
Familiar?

GodlessM
05-11-2008, 13:18
And one spell makes your a unit cause fear, relatively useless against immune to psychology.

Actually this is a brilliant spell to have vs VC and DoC, because it means no fear test when charging, which can be a big bonus.

GodlessM
05-11-2008, 13:19
The Homunculus is a Chaos Gift

HraTaika
05-11-2008, 13:27
Goodie, cheers GodlessM, was looking
from the equipment list. ^^

Neknoh
05-11-2008, 13:32
One last thing, since they are all Tzeentchian, I would replace their Daemonic Mounts with Disks of Tzeentch lest you want them in actual units, mobile firepower was never this devastating.

bork da basher
05-11-2008, 14:04
yep get rid of the mounts and get discs, faster, cause fear, flaming attacks. im running a tzeentch sorcerer/cavalry list, im not going OTT on the magic items though

Sorcerer lord / lvl 4, MoT, disc, golden eye of tzeentch, conjoined homunculus / 355
Sorcerer / lvl 2, MoT, disc, skull of katam / 210
Sorcerer / lvl 2, MoT, disc, book of secrets (lore of death) / 185
Sorcerer / MoT, disc / 125

all kept together to form an extremely fast and supremly deadly magical force, golden eye of tzeentch gives a nice 3+ ward save to the lord and the homunculus will ensure i get eternal gateway off with relative ease, two lvl 2 sorcerers, one with the skull of katam will be letting them all cast with a +2, and the other with book of secrets using the death lore which can be truly devestating, doom and darkness especially combined with pandemonium (and if you use it doom banner) at the right unit and the charge of a unit of chaos knights will open up a nice big unit sized hole in the enemy army.
i threw in a lvl 1 sorcerer because i had the points spare.

in practice the amount of magic missiles it can throw out is sick and at a pinch could be used to charge warmachine crews or skirmishers and hammer them in CC should your magic phase be screwed with somehow. im not bothering with puppet, tongue, scrolls etc i dont think they really justify the points spent on them, i just want to throw out tonnes of easily cast spells and burninate things. (+2 to cast = epic win)

Goruax
05-11-2008, 14:08
I agree with Neknoh, Discs are awesome for mobile Tzeentchian casters - march-blocking with Flickering Fire? Very tasty.
Whilst they are tougher than other mages in combat, they shouldn't be exposed to it without reason.

SolarHammer
05-11-2008, 14:30
Slaanesh magic will never be used in pickup games or tournaments because it's almost completely useless against 1/3 of the armies and 20% of the units in the other 2/3 of armies.

I thought GW was moving away from making stuff useless against ItP units by making the Banshee and Daemon magic/items usable against everything, and then they go and flush the WoC Slaanesh lore down the damn toilet.

Idiots.

HraTaika
05-11-2008, 14:36
I don't know about the discs guys. I'd like
my guys to ride on horses rather than on
random ufo discs, though they are cheaper
and marginally better I think.

Neknoh
05-11-2008, 14:40
Make the discs pegasi instead them, grab an old box of Pegasus Knights, do some greenstuffing and headswaps on the casters.

Pick up the old Chaos Knight steed heads for the Pegasi.

Model flames on top of the wings.

Discs of Tzeentch that looks like horses and not random UFO discs

HraTaika
05-11-2008, 14:56
Good idea Neknoh! Consider the idea
taken! ; ) So, how do they look?

A whopping 14 (+2) power dice, now
that's something! But a price tag of
915pts / out 2k.


Sorcerer Lord @ 370pts
Mark of Tzeentch, Disc of Tzeentch
Book of Secrets, Infernal Puppet
Level IV

Chaos Sorcerer @ 225pts
Mark of Tzeentch, Disc of Tzeentch
Power Familiar & Stone, Homunculus
Level II

Chaos Sorcerer @ 160pts
Mark of Tzeentch, Disc of Tzeentch
Level II

Chaos Sorcerer @ 160pts
Mark of Tzeentch, Disc of Tzeentch
Level II

Neknoh
05-11-2008, 15:08
I'd swap the book for the Eye of Tzeentch.

Give book to one who doesn't own it and move the Homunculus to either that one, or I'd give the Spell Familliar to the one left and give him the Homunculus, I'd even be tempted to give the Homunculus to the Lord choise so as to REALLY fire stuff up.

And again, the Skull of Katam could otherwise be tasty in there.

Nerhesi
05-11-2008, 15:20
12 power dice - not 14 on that list.

Also power generation is garbage now for MoC - especially tzeentch - horrible.

The above listed wizards would also be killed .. at a rate of 2 per turn. Discs are just +1 armor, and you can't join ANY unit any more - Tzeentch also have pretty high casting levels..

you don't want a powerfamiliar - you want a spell familiar, because you need the #6 spell for your lord. If you notice, it doesn't require LOS at all, and is not a magic missile - still can't be cast into close combat though.

You'd want something like:

Level 4 tzeentch sorceror lord
Disc of Tzeentch
Third eye thingy + the bellowing roar for more nukage
Regen Crown
Enchanted Shield
Talisman of Protection
Spell Familiar
Eye of the Gods of Favour of the Gods whatnot

around 460 or so points. But this Character now has a 1+ armor save, 5+ Ward save, 4+ regen save.

In addition, he's got 5 spells from lore of tzeentch, basically giving him less than a 5% chance of not getting the spells he wants (due to re-rolls when determining spells - never just roll 1 dice to find out which spell you don't have) -Also, he's got a bonus 12" nuke with no armor save (sure it is str 1, but it is not dispellable...)

Finally - he can dump all his spells for whatever lore he has LOS to which is awesome. Can't wait for Lore of the Old Ones! bring it on!

Your other 3 tzeentch sorcs you want:

Level 2 sorcs of tzeentch
third Eye for each one and then a barded steed (2+ armor)

items:
1) Black Tongue

2) infernal puppet + whatever

3) 2 X scrolls

-----

Your tzeentch spells are cute, but not amazing - but what you do is absolute punish anyone else for daring to use magic in your game.

High Elf Sorc lord or Teclis? Thanks - I'll take that Vaul's unmaking and kill your book of hoeth!

Any caster date to cast something? even with 1 dice? did you just roll a 1 or 2? or fail any cast? It s now a miscast thanks to the black tongue. And I also modify it by +/- d3 almost always guaranteeing that your magic phase is over, or I get a free Infernal Gateway out of it (at 15 cast value, awesome) - or worse, roll a 2,3 or 4 and your sorc lord just died with no saves.



Sam W.

Havock
05-11-2008, 15:25
yep get rid of the mounts and get discs, faster, cause fear, flaming attacks. im running a tzeentch sorcerer/cavalry list, im not going OTT on the magic items though

Sorcerer lord / lvl 4, MoT, disc, golden eye of tzeentch, conjoined homunculus / 355
Sorcerer / lvl 2, MoT, disc, skull of katam / 210
Sorcerer / lvl 2, MoT, disc, book of secrets (lore of death) / 185
Sorcerer / MoT, disc / 125

all kept together to form an extremely fast and supremly deadly magical force, golden eye of tzeentch gives a nice 3+ ward save to the lord and the homunculus will ensure i get eternal gateway off with relative ease, two lvl 2 sorcerers, one with the skull of katam will be letting them all cast with a +2, and the other with book of secrets using the death lore which can be truly devestating, doom and darkness especially combined with pandemonium (and if you use it doom banner) at the right unit and the charge of a unit of chaos knights will open up a nice big unit sized hole in the enemy army.
i threw in a lvl 1 sorcerer because i had the points spare.

in practice the amount of magic missiles it can throw out is sick and at a pinch could be used to charge warmachine crews or skirmishers and hammer them in CC should your magic phase be screwed with somehow. im not bothering with puppet, tongue, scrolls etc i dont think they really justify the points spent on them, i just want to throw out tonnes of easily cast spells and burninate things. (+2 to cast = epic win)

You always need a 3+ before any other modifiers, regardless of the spell cast. Is it 3+ and you have +1? Still fail on a 1-2. Not that the Skull isn't incredibly useful for the spells beyond the first ;)

OldMaster
05-11-2008, 15:31
Nurgle magic isn't all that bad, too. Got a problem with 1+ save Dreadlords with the Pendant of reverse ward? Take a few Nurgle Sorcerers with the Skull of Katam and blast the heck out of him.

Neknoh
05-11-2008, 15:33
Nerhesi, daemonic gifts cannot be multiplied like that, furthermore, it is not every spell of whatever Lore it is he has LoS to, it is merely the spells known by said wizard. I do agree on the survivabillity of casters needing to be beefed, however, I disagree that discs are bad, flying casters are ace, especially if you do consider the fact that currently, we are running very, very low on marchblockers and the likes.

HraTaika
05-11-2008, 15:55
Should I rather put them to my Horseman
blocks for safety, as they can't be targeted
there?

Also, should I really use close 1000pts of my
army to magic only? I'm new to FB but that
seems somewhat, too much : D

Neknoh
05-11-2008, 16:20
It's Hordes of Chaos, period :p

MarcoPollo
05-11-2008, 17:21
I would trust alot of what Neknoh says. I have always found his advice to be spot on.

It is true that flying casters are good to have, although mighty fragile. You must be careful how you use them. Plus assembling/painting them can be tedious.

As for investing close to 1000 pts in magic. Well, if you want to dominate the magic phase, then you should invest in there. Personally, I dislike playing with/against lots of magic. And a good balance is nice.

I think a better balance would be to save a spot for a combat hero (or a wizard that can dish out some punishment in combat). It is always good to have a mobile, hitty character to provide some balance to an already strong magic phase.

Latro
05-11-2008, 18:44
When it comes to flying Sorcerers, their best protection has always been their movement ... simply stay away from the dangerous spots and you'll be fine. An enemy with no-line-of-sight-needed spells will make you cry though.


:cool:

Da Boyzz
05-11-2008, 19:28
>> Attention <<

HraTaika... You have totally and utterley Hijacked this thread and your original post had nothing to do with the topic in the first place... Sorry guys, but this has nothing to do with what my OP was about.

HraTaika
06-11-2008, 06:46
Ah, it would seem so. Sorry about that.

But then again, your tittle is implying to magic
in general in WoC, rather than the question you
were asking; ie. tzeentch vs slaanesh magic.

So, if you are so picky or feel challenged by the
matters that are discussed in this tread, you really
should go and change your topic to really reflect
your question, rather than magic in general, so
that somebody may start a new topic with the
appropriate content.

Cheers,
HraTaika

Latro
06-11-2008, 07:13
Yes, we did wander off a bit there ... discussions usually do. Anyway, I think that most about the topic has been said already. Slaaneshi is good, but in a tournament setting you can't risk having most of your spells not working against the two most common and dangerous opponents ... not when you pay that much points for it.


:cool: