PDA

View Full Version : Warriors of Chaos vs Dark Elves



Von Wibble
05-11-2008, 17:06
Hi all

A 2500pts pitched battle. No piccies I'm afraid. I was using dark elves againt my opponents warriors of chaos.

I am going to annotate any mistakes I feel either I or my opponent made with (?) Both of us made several....

My list
(written in order of deployment from my left to my right)

5 Dark Riders, musician
War Hydra
11 crossbowmen + level 2 sorceress, dispel scroll, pendant (on a hill with the hydra)
5 harpies, in front of 6 cold one knights, champ with ring of hotek (?)
17 executioners + hag bsb, Hag Graef, manbane, RoKhaine, mus, champ
5 harpies, in front of 14 black guard, full comm, Crimson Death, Banner of Murder.
14 Warriors + Supreme Sorceress, L4, Sacrificial Dagger, 2 x Nullstone, Scroll.
Barebones cauldron behind this unit
War Hydra
10 crossbowmen (in 1 line)
5 Harpies

His list, also as deployed from my left to my right

6 hounds
Chaos Lord of Tz on Manticore, Runesword, Runeshield
Spawn
Chariot
Nurgle L2, warrior familiar, palanquin, scroll, leading 14 chaos warriors, nurgle, shields.
BSB, banner of the gods, leading 24 marauders, nurgle, la, sh, full comm.
Warshrine
15 marauders, Khorne, banner, gr weapons.
Spawn
Chariot
6 hounds
Sorceror of Tzeentch, L2, disc, 3rd Eye, Golden Eye

Everything between and including the 2 chariots was very centally deployed, opposite everything from my cold one knights to my ground crossbowmen

Terrain - impassable lava pit on left hand side of the table (in line with the hill my crossbows were deployed on), a few buildings and woods on right hand side.

Von Wibble
05-11-2008, 18:03
Spell selection

My sorceresses both went fo metal as every spell had a use. I got everything except transmutation and rule of burning iron for the L4. The L2 got these exact 2 spells, plus Distillation of molten silver.

His nurgle sorceror got plague squall and the first spell (TAKE A WOUND). The tzeentch sorceror got pandemonium and flickering fire.

Dark Elf Turn 1

I won the rolloff even though he had +1. I elected to go first to get the harpies into effective positions and generally improve my deployment.

Movement

The cauldron gave a 5+ ward to the nearby hydra.

I redeployed the dark riders as I felt there wasn't much for them to do (?) The crossbowmen moved forwards off the hill - I wanted them in range of the manticore opposite and as it was a large target all would get to shoot anyway. The hydra inched forwards to avoid the attentions of a manticore charge, whilst the left harpies positioned themselves ready to get behind the chaos lines

Most units moved forwards but not at full pelt, with the exception of the (warded) hydra which moved at full pace, its mission to remove the chaos chariot opposite. With a ward and regenerate I fancied its chances should the chariot charge.

The other 2 harpy units both moved directly in front of the chaos lines, in position to flee if needs be. One unit angled itself to make the khorne marauders expose their side to war hydra breath should I want that option.

Magic + Shooting

The level 2 cast power of khaine followed by distillation, which eeked out a scroll. Rule of burning iron failed to wound. After throwing a total of 7 power dice into casting with her, I remembered the nearby ring of hotek - I had been very lucky not to throw any doubles. I revealed it to my opponent even though this had happened (not sure exactly what the etiquette is but I thought it only right as there was a chance of it effecting things)

The L4 killed the opposite spawn with distillation (irresistable, 12 hits!). No other spells were in range/sight (the hydra unfortunately blocking a lot of models)

The crossbowmen shot at teh manticore rider and caused 3 wounds on the manticore. I feel this monster should have been deployed away from any missile fire, although this was a very lucky volley.

Chaos Turn 1

The army as a whole advanced. The chaos warriors and khornate marauders charged the harpies in front of them - both units fleeing. The manticore redeployed behind the nurgle marauders whilst the disc rider moved into the right hand crossbowmen's flanking zone. The warshrie granted MR 3 to the khorne marauders.

Magic

Plague squall was cast on 3 dice, scoring 15 (highest possible score bearing in mind it targetted within 12" of ring of hotek). I scrolled it. Pandemonium was easily dispell with 2 bonus MR dice. I would have managed without them however.

Dark Elf Turn 2

The crossbowmen near the Disc were given a 5+ ward (?)

The Hydra charged the chariot, even though this opened him up to a combined charge from the khorne marauders and manticore. The chariot fled off the table.

1 unit of harpies rallied, the other carried on running. The 3rd unnit flew near the manticore, behind enemy lines.

The rest of the army, with the exception of both crossbow units, advanced at full pelt towards the enemy, including the supreme sorceresses unit (?)
The L2 moved out of the unit of crossbowmen, away from the ring of hotek's radius. The war hydra moved between the sorceress and hounds, still allowing her los but preventing them from charging her. The dark riders returned to their turn 1 position with the left flank competely open.

Magic/Shooting

The net total of all of my magic and shooting this turn was 1 dead hound on the left flank and 4 dead hounds on the right flank (failing to cast POK on 2 dice with the L4 and forgetting about the dagger the main reason! - all of this was shooting damage)

Chaos Turn 2

The manticore and marauders charged the hydra, and the disc rider charged the crossbowmen. The hounds near the other hydra failed their terror check and fled. The spawn moved in front of the cold one knights with the nurgle warriors behind, in such a way that a cold one overrun would clip. I didn't spot this until too late...The marauders of nurgle confidently advanced into the black guard charge range. That unit must have a sneaky item to be that confident....

Magic/Shooting

The nurgle sorceror miscast Plague squall thanks to the ring of hotek, and allowed me to cast a spell - I chose law of gold on the BSB. He failed his dispel with his remaining 3 power dice so the banner of gods was nullified for a turn. I had achieved more in my opponents magic phase than my own!
The warshrine gave the marauders of khorne +1LD.

Combat

The chaos lord, in the tradition of all chaos lord on flying things I have ever faced, caused no wounds at all. Neither did the manticore. However, the marauders caused a wound, and to be fair I had passed a huge number of regenerate rolls.

The hydra in return had to just cause 1 wound on the manticore, and then kill 3 marauders to get a draw. 13 hatred attacks against a foe with no armour should achieve that! Several 1s to wound later, I managed to kill 1 marauder and not dent the manticore. The hydra failed its break check and ran.

I had forgotten that in multiple combat, instead of running from the most dangerous foe, you run from the highest unit strength. This combined with the fact that that manticore was still alive, meant that the hydra ran in the direction of the warriors and supreme sorceress, and was cut down by the manticore, which then attacked the warriors. The manticore rider claimed MR 3 for killing the hydra.

The disc rider caused 1 wound on the crossbowmen and the combat was deadlocked.

Dark Elf Turn 3

The cold one knights charged the spawn (thankfully passing their stupidity check), and the black guard charged the marauders, with +1A from the cauldron to boot. The executioners declared a charge on the spawn due to frenzy, but because the cold ones moved first this charge failed (no LOS)

The fleeing harpies ran off the table. The rallied harpies tried to charge the disc rider but failed their fear check.

The dark riders moved to intercept the hounds should they rally, whilst the hydra moved into position to get into the flank of the chaos lines (now very near to the chariot, out of its sight)

Magic/Shooting

Again no effect from magic thanks to ring of hotek scaring my L2, and some good armour saves from the chariot. Shooting caused 1 wound on the chariot.

Combat

The disc rider killed a single crossbowman again.

The L4 refused a challenge and hid whilst the chaos lord and manticore killed 7 warriors. Despite this the warriors held.

The black guard champion was challenged by the BSB, and caused a single wound - and was cut down for his troubles. With 4 hatred S6 attacks he had a genuine chance of winning that fight but it was not to be. The black guard chopped up several of the marauders for no loss but thanks to higher static CR, overkill, and a BSB, the marauders held.

The cold one knights easily dispatched the wounded spawn and overran, clipping the nurgle warriors. (2 in contact including champion).

Chaos Turn 3

Movement

The chariot charged the cold one knights. The warshrine charged the black guard, and the 2 hounds charged in to help the disc rider.

The fleeing hounds fled off the table, and the khornate marauders moved into position for a flank charge on the black guard next turn.

Magic/Shooting phases saw nothing of note happen except a 2nd scroll used.

Combat

The chaos lord made no mistakes and this time broke the warriors, riding them down. The hounds did nothing in their charge but the disc rider killed a couple of crossbowmen and as a result this unit also was eliminated - I now had no right flank and my general was dead.

The cold one knights killed 2 chaos warrios on charge, whilst the champion fought the sorceror in a challenge. Before he could strike the warrior familiar killed him. Although several more attacks were rolled for overkill I made all of the remaining armour saves. The chariot charge caused 5 wounds on the cold one knights, but they made all their saves to my opponents disbelief (I had made stupendous amounts of 4+ rolls) Despite losing, with the bsb in range the cold ones had a Ld 6 reroll break check which they passed. With the executioners and hydra in position to charge in this was bad news for the forces of chaos.

The warshrine killed 1 black guard. The black guard cut down the bsb and teh entire front rank of the marauders, except the champion who killed a black guard in turn. This time the nurgle marauders did break, though the warshrine held in place. With a harpy unit 2" away from them and my turn next the nurgle marauders had not got away however.

The chaos centre at this point was all but smashed whilst the dark elf army had no general and an angry manticore rider behind its lines.

I will post turns 4-6 plus analysis later.

warlord hack'a
05-11-2008, 20:51
nice read so far but are corssbowmen not move or fire? Or is this different iwth repeater crossbowmen?

Asfaloth
06-11-2008, 09:50
@warlord hack'a: repeater crossbows are essentially bows with multishot:2 and armour piercing

@von wibble: very interesting battle report with two well rounded armies. I spotted a small mistake though. The Chaos Lord should not have gotten a gift from the gods as he only overran the hydra (instead of slaying it).

Briohmar
06-11-2008, 10:13
I haven't gotten my book in the mail yet, so I'll ask this here: As far as I know, running something down when it breaks is still killing it, so why wouldn't the lord get a roll on the table? Does the book specify that killing something by running it down does not grant you a roll on the Eye of the gods?

Neknoh
06-11-2008, 10:52
Yes

It must be a kill in direction relation to, well, a kill by chopping up wounds, not by running the character down

EvC
06-11-2008, 11:10
It specifies you don't get it for running down character while he's in a challenge. Large targets are different, so it was played right. Maybe.

Briohmar
06-11-2008, 13:00
So you have to intentionally not win a combat if you're in a challenge that you don't kill the other character outright? That is absolutely ridiculous. I'm sorry, but it just seems to me that if you charge a unit of whatever with your Khorne Knights with Exalted Champ, and they end up winning by 8 or so, but your exalted doesn't kill the other character with the 2+ Wardsave and regeneration, but runs away instead, then you don't get to roll. Man what a bummer. That goes against the whole point of the game which is to "crush enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of the women."

Von Wibble
06-11-2008, 17:27
Carrying on (I will respond to posts later...)

Dark Elf Turn 4

The Hydra charged into the chariot whilst the executioners (boosted with +1A by the cauldron) charged the chaos warriors.

As expected the harpies near the nurgle marauders charged and ran them down.

The harpies that had tried to charge the disc rider in the previous turn tried again. They failed their fear check.

The crossbowmen turned to face and shoot the manticore whilst the sorceress rejoined them.

The dark riders moved behind the chaos lines in position for a rear charge in the large melee, and in position to kill any fleeing chaos troops.

Shooting/Magic

Nothing of note happened in the magic phase, whilst the crossbowmen managed to finish off the manticore in shooting.

Combat

The black guard took a casualty against the warshrine but somehow managed to wound it despite the armour and 3+ ward. The shrine failed its break check and was overran. This also put the black guard out of sight of the khornate marauders.

The hydra managed to show it was just as competant as its cousin causing all of 2 wounds on the chariot, both of which were saved. The charging executioner champion accepted a challenge frmo the nurgle sorceror (?), and somehow was not cut down by the warrior familiar. He then wounded the sorceror before dying to the return attacks.

The death hag attacked (8 attacks!) and killed 4 chaos warriors. The executioners then killed another 5! The chaos champion in return took out 1 executioner. The cold one knights managed to wound the chariot once. Not surprisingly, with all the damage done by the executioners, both chaos units fled, but both eveded their pursuers (because the chaos warriors had taken so many casualties they were out of contact and so the cold one knights and hydra pursued the chariot whilst the executioners pursued the warriors).

Chaos Turn 4

The mountless chaos lord charged the cauldron whilst the disc rider charged the harpies that had spent all battle gawping at it. Unsurprisingly they failed their fear check and would need 6s to hit.

The chariot rallied but the sorceror and warriors fled off the table. The khornate marauders moved to charge a choice of dark elf infantry next turn. Nothing else remained in the chaos force.

In combat the disc rider killed a harpy for no return damage. The chaos lord killed the hag in a challenge but the cauldron crew held their nerve - the chaos lord got +1 attack as his gift.

Dark Elf Turn 5

The cauldron gave itself a ward save (?)

The cold one knights passed their stupidity check and charged the chariot. The rest of the army turned to face the marauders whilst the harpies and dark riders moved to challenge table quarters.

In combat the disc rider again killed a harpy for no damage. The cauldron crew were easily killed by the chaos lord. The cold one knights eliminated the chariot and overran off the table.

Chaos Turn 5

The khornate marauders charged the black guard (should have given them the ward!). The lord moved towards the crossbowmen (no choice really!)

In combat the disc rider killed 2 harpies and finally caused them to flee, wiping them out.

The marauders did enough damage to bring the black guard below half strength. My opponent was not impressed when I told him that was 134vps to him ;) The black guard return attacks removed a rank from the marauders who fled and were wiped out.

Dark Elf turn 6

The only action of consequence was between the sorceress, crossbowmen and chaos lord, as the lord was not in charge range of anyone else. The crossbowmen elected to shoot rather than charge the lord, whilst the sorceress left the unit. Shooting caused no damage thanks to T5 and a 3+ save.

Chaos Turn 6

The chaos lord charged the crossbowmen whilst the disc rider moved to try to blast the sorceress.

No spells were cast yet again. Magic had been a real damp squib in this game.

The chaos lord rolled poorly killing just 3 crossbowmen, and the crossbowmen held as a result.

End result - Solid victory to the dark elves (about 100 off a massacre)

Von Wibble
06-11-2008, 17:41
Conclusions

1) Do not take ring of hotek if you have a level 4. I thought mobility would be enough but never really accounted for the fact that enemy units can effectively get protection too! It really scuppered my chances of doing damage to the chaos lines in the magic phase.

2) The chaos list was very character heavy - perhaps too much so (1250pts spent!) I felt that the disc riders role would have been better suited to an exalted hero, or at least a character with more combatty magic items - he din't use the 3rd eye at any point and was fast enough that I didn't really have the ability to shoot at him (maybe a different story if I had used RBTs). Had the list had a couple of chaos knight units instead of so much investment in characters I would have had a much harder time.

3) My magic had virtually no effect on the game at all. Apart from an early Spawn the one thing I did was to nullify the banner of the gods - which actually had no effect in game terms as the model carrying it died before his unit broke. Next time I have a level 4 I need to really think carefully about her deployment and mobility - I may well try a pegasus (I don't want to lose a hero for a dragon)

4) My hydras had a huge psychological effect on the battle without doing any real damage. They rolled appallingly this battle and still had quite an effect (letting my supreme sorceress die being the low point however).

5) My supreme sorceress wouldn't have died had I taken the pendant (not unreasonable no a model with T3 and no armour) and invested just a few more points in her unit - a block of 25 with shields and full command would have been less than 100 more points.

On the hydra and roll on eotg - the rule states you only get the rollm for a character directly killed by the character. It makes no such stipulation for monstrous creatures. We both agreed on this before the battle. It would hardly be fair if a chaos lord on dragon charged another dragon, reduced it to 1 wound, made it flee, and overran it, and yet didn't get a roll for it after all.

Also note - it may seem like a lot of attacks were made by troops in combat - our interpretation of the challenge rules is that models in a challenge fight to one side of the unit so a different model takes their place to fight in the front rank. Not sure if that's the official ruling - its just a convention we have.

I feel sure I will be facing chaos knights next time round....

SolarHammer
06-11-2008, 17:56
Also note - it may seem like a lot of attacks were made by troops in combat - our interpretation of the challenge rules is that models in a challenge fight to one side of the unit so a different model takes their place to fight in the front rank. Not sure if that's the official ruling - its just a convention we have.

It's certainly not the rule, and I'm glad. Something like that only benefits armies with strong killy models. For example, if some Chaos Warriors of Khorne get into combat with a unit of Skavenslaves, the Skaven champion can issue a challenge to try and tie up the Chaos Champion, but all that does is get the Chaos player another 4 attacks to kill more slaves!

Awful! It totally does away with most of the uses of tactical challenging.

The SkaerKrow
06-11-2008, 18:05
Awful! It totally does away with most of the uses of tactical challenging.I fail to see the negative here, since "tactical challenging" is gimmicky at best.

SolarHammer
06-11-2008, 18:08
No it's not! It's one of the only tools units of fodder have against devastating characters and elite units! I have no idea how you can think that. The guy already gets his benefit in the overkill rules. To provide further benefit by giving his overstrong unit more attacks is ridiculous.

eagletsi1
06-11-2008, 18:10
Briohmar:

The rule is not intended for that purpose. The rule is intended, so when fighting, Chaos Units and characters, and challenged you will not just sacrafice a unit champion, because the Chaos Character will gain a power from the eye. It's intended to make the opponent use his characters in challenges more because if he throws a champ the chaos character will gain abilities.

It really is a very clever rule when you think about it. Most armies have to pay for a magic item to force character to challenge, but with Warriors of Chaos it's almost free.

Mireadur
06-11-2008, 22:01
well, gimicky or not the rule is as Solarhammer points out... I believe to remember it was like Von wible uses it back in 5th edition (not sure in 6th)... I believe back in the day you really separated both challenging models and put them on the side of the main fight... Not anymore however.

SolarHammer
06-11-2008, 22:26
No, you moved them in the fighting ranks to face each other, and if that was inconvenient you placed them beside the unit, but you never replaced them with other troopers.

Briohmar
07-11-2008, 10:53
The rule is not intended for that purpose. The rule is intended, so when fighting, Chaos Units and characters, and challenged you will not just sacrafice a unit champion, because the Chaos Character will gain a power from the eye. It's intended to make the opponent use his characters in challenges more because if he throws a champ the chaos character will gain abilities.

It really is a very clever rule when you think about it. Most armies have to pay for a magic item to force character to challenge, but with Warriors of Chaos it's almost free.

I get the intent, but the side effect is that you don't get it if in the challenge you only do two wounds to the Saurus Oldblood, Black Orc Warboss or whatever, and then the unit around you proceeds to pummel the enemy unit. It would seem that you have to intentionally not fight with at least half of your force (say Khorne Knights or warriors with two hand weapons) if you wanted to get the eye of the gods for killing the enemy general in this situation. The rule is, in my opinion, off-base from the rules for killing units or characters. If I kill a general by breaking his unit, I still get victory points for killing him, even if I challenge him and he doesn't get killed outright, I still get 100 points for killing him. Why not an Eye roll if I did challenge, but he ran away after the first exchange.

Svarog
07-11-2008, 15:49
As a fellow Dark Elves player I have one question, dosent the Couldren of Blood only bestow the abilities to Druchii, not to mounts, which i assmue include hydra. Therefore if you ward the hydra wouldnt only the beast masters get the 5+ ward not the hydra itself? Cause then you could have a 7A monster with hatred and killing blow potentially...

Von Wibble
07-11-2008, 16:23
The hydra is a monster not a mount. It states in COB's rules that mounts and creatures pulling charitos don't get the benefit.

Mireadur - I'm sure you're right on it being a 4th-5th edition rule. I don't think the results in the combats would have changed in context of this game anyway - maybe one or 2 more of my models would have died. Personally I prefer combats to be decided by troops being killed rather than just standing there and comparing numbers.

Briohmar - I personally think the eye table should have a lot more effects (D66 or one table for each of the gods) and more negative effects in with that, and be rolled a lot more. At the moment that chances of them severely effecting a battle are minimal.

Mullitron
08-11-2008, 19:45
Nice battle report, was a pleasure to read. Youve just got to love the black guard their soo good! I was actualy thinking when reading the report how good the eye of the gods rule seemed. For a rule that comes as standard combined with some of the toughest characters in the game i think its pretty nasty. There may be a situations where you fail to kill another hero and you dont get the bonus but all the times you do get a bonus for killing heroes surely has to balance it out? Suprised to see no shades been told by many people there amazing. Congrats on your win and thanks for posting a good report