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Cap'n Facebeard
06-11-2008, 04:54
Ok, it'll all be FAQ'd soon but these situations are likely to arise. I like the new book xcept for these questions:

1. If you Giver of Glory (GG from now) a unit with a character, does character get the benefit?
2. Can the Warshrine GG itself?
3. Can the Warshrine GG another Warshrine?
4. If you GG a unit with multiple profiles (cavalry) do they all get bonuses (ie Str)?
5. Like Q. 4, if you GG a chariot and get the Strength bonus, does it affect impact hits? B4 you answer, consider if you get the Toughness bonus it would be useless to a chariot if it didn't affect the chassis.
6. If you GG a unit with character (assume they both get bonus) and the character leaves the unit, do you get to choose who continues to receive the bonus?
7. If you GG a unit with more than one Warshrine, and both roll the same benefit, are they cumulative, do you re-roll, or is the 2nd result wasted? Keep in mind some results would be impossible to double up.

Looks like a big list, but I'm not bagging the book - I dig it heaps. I just dig the Warshrine and expect my Tomb King opponent to frown at a potentially Strength 7 chariot :evilgrin:

Atrahasis
06-11-2008, 09:50
1. Yes - he is a member of the unit n all respects
2. Yes - it is a friendly unit
3. Yes - it is a friendly unit
4. Who knows - the rule is written too specifically for characters to apply it with any certainty to units.
5. Possibly
6. Who knows? There's no rule covering it.
7. Reroll - duplicates are always rerolled.

fredster4050
06-11-2008, 13:11
6. GG says the unit benefits, the character only benefits by being there. However it does say the effect should be recorded on your roster, therefore if the character were to leave the unit it could be argued that the effect would last until the unit he left were to be subjected to another GG roll by the warshrine.

Goruax
06-11-2008, 15:46
For #5, the Chariot itself would benefit - think of it as a character in a unit.
They are all the same 'unit' so all parts gain the benefit.
#4 is the same - the horses are part of the unit, and gain the benefit too.

#6, this is the way I do it, but it tells you to choose a unit, so if they character leaves that unit, he looses the benefit. But there is no strict ruling so far.

BEEGfrog
06-11-2008, 18:39
#6, this is the way I do it, but it tells you to choose a unit, so if they character leaves that unit, he looses the benefit. But there is no strict ruling so far.

Characters are a unit of one when they are on their own. I would leave the benefit with the previous unit, but would the rules on spell effects when characters join or leave units not also apply here?

Goruax
06-11-2008, 20:45
Considering it isn't a spell and doesn't act like one either (no way of removing it by the enemy) it wouldn't technically follow those rules, though they are a good guideline.
It does require a ruling from GW to be cleared up.

But in this situation, the character is a unit, and so is the [Warrior/Whatever] Unit, so only one can thusly be affected - one has to lose it, since the Warshrine bestows the effects on one unit.

Cap'n Facebeard
06-11-2008, 22:41
Cool discussion, thanks guys, but I got more -
8: If you GG a unit and then the Warshrine moves more than 12" away, is the bonus lost?
9: If a champion receives a roll on the EotG due to killing a character under GG, will he lose his reward if the Warshrine is destroyed?

Goruax
06-11-2008, 22:51
8: No. Technically, the only way the roll is lost is when you choose to roll again, using the Warshrine.

9: No, because he has been granted that gift - it is permanent, as per the rules for Eye of the Gods, but the Warshrine granted roll (in the shooting phase) explicitly states it is lost when you roll again.

Cap'n Facebeard
06-11-2008, 23:12
Yeah, that was my impressions, still discussion is needed. These situations aren't some sort of wacky unlikely events.

Grimzilla
07-11-2008, 08:22
I got one aswell, and possibly the most discussed one there is.

10: does a character with Favour of the Gods infuence the roll from GG if he is in the targeted unit, if so do the unit and the character get different "gifts"?

DeathlessDraich
07-11-2008, 09:20
I got one aswell, and possibly the most discussed one there is.

10: does a character with Favour of the Gods infuence the roll from GG if he is in the targeted unit, if so do the unit and the character get different "gifts"?

Hello and welcome Grimzilla

GG targets and affects a unit and the character within it does not get a different 'gift'.



6. If you GG a unit with character (assume they both get bonus) and the character leaves the unit, do you get to choose who continues to receive the bonus?


This rule (of choosing whether an effect remains with a character or the unit) is taken from RIP.

Since EOTG is not RIP or even a spell, the rule does not apply.

A character with a GIFT joins a unit, which then is bestowed with GG:

1) The character should benefit from a Gift bestowed to the unit through GG but this probably needs an FAQ. One problem has to be resolved when this happens - if a (9) is rolled on the EOTG table.

2) If the character does benefit from GG, then to be consistent with the other WOC ruels, it should remain with him *and* the unit when the character leaves the unit.

Grimzilla
07-11-2008, 10:40
GG targets and affects a unit and the character within it does not get a different 'gift'.


Ok, so the unit and the character have the same 'gift'. But can Favour of the Gods change the outcome if the unit is target of GG and the character in that unit has Favour of the Gods?

cold0
07-11-2008, 20:36
Ok, I just want to add a question:

What happens if we have a hero mounting a monster that receives the "Giver of Glory" bless from a warshire? Technically the hero+moster is a unit, so they roll on the EoTG table and both received the effect, right? And what happens if the hero has the Favour of the Gods item? Can he modify even the result of the monster or is it possible to have 2 different results one for the monster and one (modified by the Favour) for the hero?

Edit: well I have seen the Phil Kelly FAQ (sse WoC: tactics topic) So I have found an answer: the Favour can modify the EoTG result even for the "unit" so even gor the mounted monster.

GodlessM
07-11-2008, 20:41
1. If you Giver of Glory (GG from now) a unit with a character, does character get the benefit?
2. Can the Warshrine GG itself?
3. Can the Warshrine GG another Warshrine?
4. If you GG a unit with multiple profiles (cavalry) do they all get bonuses (ie Str)?
5. Like Q. 4, if you GG a chariot and get the Strength bonus, does it affect impact hits? B4 you answer, consider if you get the Toughness bonus it would be useless to a chariot if it didn't affect the chassis.
6. If you GG a unit with character (assume they both get bonus) and the character leaves the unit, do you get to choose who continues to receive the bonus?

Yes to all.


7. If you GG a unit with more than one Warshrine, and both roll the same benefit, are they cumulative, do you re-roll, or is the 2nd result wasted? Keep in mind some results would be impossible to double up.

It specifically says if you are dealing with duplicate War Shrines effects stack so you would not have to re-roll.

OldMaster
07-11-2008, 22:01
It specifically says if you are dealing with duplicate War Shrines effects stack so you would not have to re-roll.

If it really overrides the normal rules of the EotG, the Warshrine gets even more awesome in my books....

Think of it, S6 additional hand weapon Warriors, or S7 Knights...
Khornate Chosen with a monstrous 5 attacks per model, or Chosen with GW and a 2+ Armour save (that's what the models deserve tbh)..


I <3 Warshrine.

cold0
08-11-2008, 10:29
Think of it, S6 additional hand weapon Warriors, or S7 Knights...
Khornate Chosen with a monstrous 5 attacks per model, or Chosen with GW and a 2+ Armour save (that's what the models deserve tbh)..

Right. I'm starting to see the biggest advantage of the new WoC army. In 2000 points ona can deploy 2 Warshire those use Giver of Glory on the same unit on the same turn. Then, on the next turn on another unit and so. Add Favour of Gods and/or Valkia.....

Mireadur
08-11-2008, 11:49
i dont think it affects mounts nor characters inside units...

DeathlessDraich
08-11-2008, 12:17
Right. I'm starting to see the biggest advantage of the new WoC army. In 2000 points ona can deploy 2 Warshire those use Giver of Glory on the same unit on the same turn. Then, on the next turn on another unit and so. Add Favour of Gods and/or Valkia.....

Yes, when I first read the EOTG and GG rules, I thought my whole army would eventually be improved by GG but it seems only 1 unit per warshrine will be 'Gifted'.

- "it will negate the Warshrine's previous effects"

So effectively the warshrine is a 'versatile *one* unit upgrade' which can be changed every turn.


Ok, so the unit and the character have the same 'gift'. But can Favour of the Gods change the outcome if the unit is target of GG and the character in that unit has Favour of the Gods?

I understand your question now. 2 versions:

1) Character with a Gift joins a unit who then gains GG:
A) If the GG is different, the character gains it in addition to the Gift he has.
B) If it is the same does he get a re-roll (or has to re-roll) or does the whole unit also has to re-roll? -
No answer provided in the rules. Hopefully the FAQ will cover this.
The GG rules *do not* stipulate that duplicates have to be re-rolled unlike the EOTG rules.

2) Character in a unit and has the same GG as the unit he is with. If the character then gains EOTG:
A) If the EOTG Gift, is different, the character gains it
B) If it is the same, the character has to re-roll to obtain another Gift.
The unit presumably does not have to re-roll but this is not absolutely clear.

cold0
08-11-2008, 14:17
"it will negate the Warshrine's previous effects"

I don't know, the phrase is not so clear; my first impression is that a new effect of Giver of Glory of a Warshire negate the previous effect of the same Warshire if a use again on the same unit.
Cleary if the Warshire is restricted to "one effect in play" (and it's possible) is pretty useless.

Mireadur
08-11-2008, 15:34
You guys seriously applying the resulting roll to characters inside units?

EDIT: i fail to understand the debate generated by the GG rule. It seems pretty clear. Maybe what im reading wrong are some replies here...

Mordhorst
08-11-2008, 16:01
You guys seriously applying the resulting roll to characters inside units?

It seems pretty obvious to me that a character, who is part of a unit, will get affected by things that affect the whole unit, i.e. the Giver of Glory rule. This is true for psychology, it is true for magic, and if would not be true for the EOTG effect of the warshrine, it surely would say so somewhere.

If mounts are affected, or if a character with the Favour of the gods item can manipulate the outcome of a warshrine-induced EOTG roll for his unit is debated, and IMO unlikely, but possible.

cold0
08-11-2008, 16:33
Yes, when I first read the EOTG and GG rules, I thought my whole army would eventually be improved by GG but it seems only 1 unit per warshrine will be 'Gifted'.


Daethless, you are right. I have re-read the english version and is clearer than the italian. Now it seems more balanced compared with the dark elf Altar of Khaine. Alas, after reading and re-reading the book, I have the impression that GW changed the rules of the EoTG bacause "too strong" at last minute. Now it's seem completely casual and rarely applicable. BTW the Warshire seems more and more a waste of points, as Avian says.

Mordhorst
08-11-2008, 16:58
Daethless, you are right. I have re-read the english version and is clearer than the italian. Now it seems more balanced compared with the dark elf Altar of Khaine.

At least the cauldron can choose the desired effect, so even with all the benefits that the warshrine could generate (affecting mounts, Favor of the Gods result manipulation possible) it would not be overpowered just because of the random effect.

Mireadur
09-11-2008, 11:50
I got a 12 finally on my lord.... Too bad he ended inside a giant's sack right afterwards! :eek:

About the GG affecting characters inside units... So you guys convinced me, couldnt think on anything really for this not to work.

cold0
10-11-2008, 09:37
At least the cauldron can choose the desired effect, so even with all the benefits that the warshrine could generate (affecting mounts, Favor of the Gods result manipulation possible) it would not be overpowered just because of the random effect.

Right. The Cauldron can choose the effect while with tha altart the effect is random. The cost is similar but the cauldron is less randomic; in the end the waraltar seems a poor choise to me.

Eidan
10-11-2008, 16:00
The rules of Chosen say, that they can roll on the EotG and Characters inside the unit are not affected. I know, that this is a similar rule, but ...

jrodrag
10-11-2008, 16:27
The points for the warshrine are much less than the CoB. In a Dark Elf army you are paying a minimum of 200 points and a hero slot for the Cauldron. This dosen't take into account any BSB upgrades or Gift of Khaine items. And you have a close combat oriented character stuck with a piece of kit that won't let her get into combat without receiving the charge.

The warshrine is only 130 points with no upgrade options. It does take up a rare slot but it dosen't tie up a character to keep it wrangled. The randomness of it is very keeping with the randomness of Chaos and other than 2 and 7 there arn't any really bad results. I would probably take one fairly often. Maybe not every army like the CoB but very regularly.

Mordhorst
11-11-2008, 00:12
The rules of Chosen say, that they can roll on the EotG and Characters inside the unit are not affected. I know, that this is a similar rule, but ...

It may look similar, but the Chosen roll on the EOTG table at the beginning of the game is very different from the Warshrine "Giver of Glory" rule.
One is inteded to benefit the Chosen (and only the Chosen) as you correctly point out, the other benefits a whole unit, with no other exceptions.

The Cowslayer
11-11-2008, 16:04
ok my first post here (jay many to follow:P)

and a question that is not exactly about the warshrine BUT about the EOTG rule

A chosen champion can have magic items, so he can have "favour of the gods".
The wording of this item says "after rolling on the eotg table the BEARER my add substract bla bla..." does this mean he can affect the roll of his UNIT (which he is part of so it is HIS roll, but not only his...) on the eotg table pre-game?

it would make sense if he could, but then again it would be very good. im not sure on this topic so please enlighten me :)

Atrahasis
11-11-2008, 16:12
The answer is we don't know.

You're new here, so a word of advice : it's good manners to use the search function before posting a question, especially in someone else's thread.

The Cowslayer
11-11-2008, 16:20
well i read the thread and only saw about the same question about characters in units with the eotg thingy (maybe i missed it) , but as a champion is part of the unit it might be different.

Thx anyway,
guess we gotta wait for the faq then :(

cheers