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Nicha11
06-11-2008, 07:06
What is the best way to use WOC magic?

What are some tips, tricks (and cheese)?

Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaneesh?

FurryMiguell
06-11-2008, 09:56
Tzeentch is the way my brother;). Tzeentch mages can become extremely powerful, not only as a sorcerer, but also as a CC character. Slaanesh and Nurgle lores are somewhat unpractical, unfortunately. Just have a look at the difrent spells you get from the lores, and decide which you like the most. (dont decide on one spell, your not always likely to get to use it;))

You could always see if its in the magic tactica:D http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124089 ( I checked and it is:p)

happy_doctor
06-11-2008, 11:34
Unfortunately, the magic tactica hasn't been updated with the latest chaos lores.(still looking for volunteers - it probably won't be up for the next month or so, while the veterans playtest the new book)
The ones posted are there for the Beasts of Chaos players who still use the 6th edition chaos lores.

As for the OP question, I'd say go with whichever god you like best! :)

Not being a WoC player myself, from what I've seen all 3 lores have taken a significant boost in power with the new rules.

The black tongue plus the thingy that lets you modify the miscast by D3 can help a lot, letting you either kill a wizard (thus lowering your opponent's dispel capabilities) or giving you a free spell (quite handy when using the rather costly Lore of Tzeentch).

FurryMiguell
06-11-2008, 11:36
oh, so its not the new one. Ok, my bad:p

My advice stands though

bork da basher
06-11-2008, 13:32
tzeentch is the best all round lore, slaanesh is neutered by ITP armies like demons and VC and thus wont be used too often, nurgle is good but not great.

i play tzeentch so i'll start here.

flickering fire - cast on 3+ (awesome) you get between 2-7 hits at S2-7. it can be hit or miss but roll well and its a superb magic missile capable of wounding anything if the dice gods are with you. 3+ to cast should ensure every tzeentch sorcerer has this.

baleful transmogrification - OK not great but it'll punish low LD armies like goblins or skaven and even better if you cast pandemonium first.

pandemonium - cast this on the turn your main charges take place, fear, terror, panic, break tests will benefit hugely, this cast at the right time can be a gamewinner.
if your facing magic heavy armies this should be cast every turn if possible, combine with infernal puppet for miscast massacres.

treason of tzeentch - my favourite spell of the lore, target high strength low toughness troops if possible, anything with great weapons, haberds, flails etc. hammerers, greatswords, swordmasters will learn to fear this spell. the bigger the unit is the better. 20 hammerers take 20 S5 attacks, 15 or so hit, 10 or so kill, amazing spell.

call to glory - harder to cast but very nice if its timed right. having a combat beast pop up in a unthreatening unit of marauders that was doomed to die very often turns the tables of a combat your likely to loose. makes those "detachments" of 10 MoK GW marauders insanely powerful for the cost of 3 or so dice.

eternal gateway - this is the daddy, why most people will choose tzeentch. this is a gamewinner if you can pull it off. always aim this at the flagship unit. even if its just hits it takes its gonna hurt it, but for the slim chance the unit will vaporise its worth it everytime. this is very much an endgame spell, you put a MoT sorcerer on the table and garenteed a single scroll at least will be dedicated to waiting for gateway to turn up. draw out the scrolls and dont waste your chance.


my overall advise with Tzeentch magic is to go all or nothing. 3 mages at least, a lord if possible, all on discs and you have the most mobile, most offensive magic platform in the game. easily able to get 14 power dice, 7 dispel dice and in range on turn one. these guys should be taking off units at a time even without eternal gateway.

HraTaika
06-11-2008, 14:03
I agree totally with the previous poster;
the following set-up will not just dominate
the magic phase, but will also cause some
major damage in the form of FF and ToT.


Sorcerer Lord @ 376pts
Mark of Tzeentch, Barded Mount
Crown of Everlasting Conquest, Homunculus
Level IV

Sorcerer @ 206pts
Mark of Tzeentch, Barded Mount
Book of Secrets, Golden Eye of Tzeentch
Level II

Sorcerer @ 226pts
Mark of Tzeentch, Barded Mount
Power Familiar, Collar of Khorne,
Third Eye of Tzeentch
Level II

Sorcerer @ 206pts
Mark of Tzeentch, Barded Mount
Infernal Puppet, Talisman of Protection
Level II


They are all pretty survivable, but you
should consider putting them on discs
and finding points for Skull of Katan.

(I use the horses until I can convert
them to chaos pegasi, to keep up with
my horse theme.)

EvC
06-11-2008, 14:26
I would also heartily advise taking the armour that negates killing blow on any Lord with the Crown of Everlasting Conquest- the last thing you want is for a killing blow to kill your Lord and negate the regeneratin roll!

Goruax
06-11-2008, 14:38
Also consider investing in the Filth Mace on the Lord.
Makes the Lord 426 points with the Bronze Armour.

But, on a disc, whack him into a unit of Fast Cav. kill one and cause Terror and your Lord becomes not only a Terror-bomb, but also resilient to enemy charges because of it.
Expensive but then he is a Level 4 Chaos Sorcerer Lord.

Kalec
06-11-2008, 23:06
Or just take the bronze armor, and rely on his 2+ AS to see him through. Leaves points for a spell familiar and keeps him relatively cheap for a lord-level caster.

Shamfrit
06-11-2008, 23:57
Sorceror Lord
MOT, Disc
LVL.4
Enchanted Shield, Golden Eye of Tzeentch

---

Cheap, 3+ ward vs. Missiles. Sorted :D

etancross
07-11-2008, 14:51
OOO MAN! im glad someone put this into a thread...

i had been wanting to ask but didnt know if i'd get flammed and called a noob or what....

I really favor Nurgle but im starting to warm up to tzeench abit (im sure that comes as a suprise to those who know me :cool: )

**BACK ON TOPIC**

I look forward to seeing more ideas on magic, i would also like to see what others take on a Beefed up Nurgle caster would be? Im starting to like tzeench but i love nurgle.

Stezerok
08-11-2008, 05:40
my overall advise with Tzeentch magic is to go all or nothing. 3 mages at least, a lord if possible, all on discs and you have the most mobile, most offensive magic platform in the game. easily able to get 14 power dice, 7 dispel dice and in range on turn one. these guys should be taking off units at a time even without eternal gateway.

So are you suggesting that if I were to go like 2 lvl 2 mages, then I shouldn't use MoT? I'm just wondering because, I tried MoS and it really just didn't have very much punch, or at least not as much as I needed, and figured that Tzeentch would just perform better overall... Should I reconsider, and why?

Also, with Baleful Transmogrification, are monstrous creatures with handlers considered using the creatures Ld (like say if I use it on a DE Hydra) or the Ld of the handlers?

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Goruax
08-11-2008, 21:44
MoT is fine with 2 Mages at 2K.
My list has 2 in, the only problem I find is my 2 (most) regular opponents are magic heavy (Daemons and Vampires) and so against them I get shut down regardless.

But with Flickering Fire being 4+ (and don't forget the +1 to cast) you can easily throw a dice at that at any point in your phase and distract them with the other heavy hitters (Pandaemonium and Infernal Gateway)
IMO, Call to Glory isn't great unless you haven't got any other useful spells and is only worth the 2 dice and hope for Irresistable.

@Stezerok;
You'd use the highest Ld in the unit. If Pandaemonium is cast, I guess you'd use the majority Ld.

W0lf
08-11-2008, 22:51
Flickering fire is brutal.

You throw one dice at it and cast at knights its hard to ignore. The times you rollS 6/7 really hurt expensive knights of which there are often plenty.

Ozorik
11-11-2008, 00:45
I was thinking of trying this at 2k

Sorcerer lord, lvl 4 , MoT, tendrils of Tzeentch, disc, golden eye of Tzeentch, the black tongue.

lvl 2 sorc, MoT, disc, infernal puppet

lvl 2 sorc, MoT, disc

Exalted champion, MoT, book of secrets, shield

Plus 2 large units of marauders, 2 units of horsemen, 4 of hounds, a units of knights and a large unit of warriors with the banner of wrath.

Essentially 4 mages. One of whom can hold his own in melee, the other true casters use their speed and maneuverability to stay out of the way as much as possible while buring through powerdice. Even if my magic fails utterly I still have a soild backbone of combat troops.

It would be a nice counter point to my pure Khorne army.

Havock
11-11-2008, 00:49
Sorceror Lord
MOT, Disc
LVL.4
Enchanted Shield, Golden Eye of Tzeentch

---

Cheap, 3+ ward vs. Missiles. Sorted :D

If you have the points left, take the skull of katam as well, that way you can park him next to another sorcerer if required (say, a level 2 having spell number 6), it gets more expensive that way but with MoT, you have a whopping +2 to cast...

Goruax
11-11-2008, 01:46
Drop the Black Tongue and grab the Power or Spell Familiar, and a Dispel Scroll.
They are much more useful than the Tongue.

The Power Familiar just helps, especially when you have so many magic users, drawing from the main pool, it allows your Lord more freedom of himself.
The Spell Familiar helps in general, but would be of more use to a Level 2 to suprise an enemy.

Also, since you have a Lord, you're in 2K+ so you'll deeeeefinitely want at least 1 DS.
Keep the Puppet though, it is awesome sauce :)


Also, your Lord cannot take Tendrils of Tzeentch, he is only allowed 50 points of gifts and the Tendrils cost 60.
Give him the Third Eye, since it can be nasty to just nab an enemy power spell (Pit of Shades, Unseen Lurker, etc) when they least expect it.
On that note, you could only have the Golden Eye OR the Black Tongue, since they are both Talismans. So drop the Black Tongue, definitely.

Discord
11-11-2008, 09:38
I'm curious. How does this 1000+ points spent on spellcasting characters business really fare against magic-heavy daemons and vampires? The former can lug around ten dispel dice and -2 to your casting rolls, plus 16+ power dice, which you'll struggle to counter with your 7 dispel dice. Any experiences? Or even lots of number crunching and theory?

Goruax
11-11-2008, 10:26
Personally, I've not played versus Daemons much, but against Vampires, magic heavy did well.
I made tactical errors, but magic wise I was pretty solid.
11PD/6DD is nice, especially when you have a solid core of Warriors.
Destroyed his Blood Knights with an IF S7 Infernal Gateway causing 10 wounds.
Also, Baleful Transmogrification eats Undead un-live, and would've worked even better had I got Pandaemonium too.

Never got to try out Third Eye of Tzeentch, but some armies such as High Elves will hate you for it, as some of their stuff is awesome - 4+ ward save to a unit? Yes please.

The -2 was nasty when I did play against Daemons, but then I wasn't as magic heavy.

Shamfrit
11-11-2008, 10:51
To the Lore of Tzeentch?

It's only -1 then ;)

goodz
13-11-2008, 07:01
hmm want to waste a lot of points on a sorceror lord? :)

give him MoT, tendrils of Tzeentch, and blood of Tzeentch and make him level 4

he now has 5 dice and can re roll 2, (including a 1)

this gives you a good chance of getting an irrisitable force :D I find unless i get it irrisitable my gateway gets dispelled:(

it was my belief lord was allowed 100 points in items but my book is at a friends house atm!

Discord
13-11-2008, 14:21
He doesn't have a fifth power dice nor is he able to buy tendrils of Tzeentch. But apart from that, great advice for wasting a lot of points, with him being on foot and having no protective items or anything else of use. ;)

Goruax
13-11-2008, 18:18
Discord is correct.
You're right though, the Lord is allowed 100 points of magic items, but then the Tendrils of Tzeentch is a Gift of the Gods, and is limited to 50 for Lords, only Daemon Princes have 100 points of gifts, but they get no Magic Items.

IMO, the best 2 items for a Tzeentch Sorcerer Lord are the Power Familiar and Collar of Khorne.
5+ Ward and MR2 means snipes (such as Magnificent Bewblies) are nigh impossible to hit him with, so he's safe from that.
Power Familiar does give him 5 PD, and if you want you've got the 2 Pool dice too, so he's gonna get something cast.
Personally, I like the Third Eye of Tzeentch (chuckle). I've not actually used it yet, which is kinda worrying, but the idea that you can just nab an enemy spell to use at the right time is kinda neat.

goodz
13-11-2008, 20:54
ah didn't note the gift of the gods part :P

shoot

Axis
13-11-2008, 23:46
Don't underestimate the lore of slaanesh. Personally i am going to take a lvl2 slaanesh wizard and a lvl2 tzeentch wizard in my 2k list. If i come against ITP i will probably just use lash and give the full pool to the tzeentch wizard. Some of the slaanesh spells are devastating!!

Though i wouldn't take ONLY a slaanesh wizard. Or if you take only a slaanesh wizard you could give it the 3rd eye to borrow some other spells...

imo the biggest problem with WoC magic is the complete dearth of good looking sorcerer models.

Stezerok
14-11-2008, 03:34
IMO, the best 2 items for a Tzeentch Sorcerer Lord are the Power Familiar and Collar of Khorne.


lol there is definitely something wrong with this picture...

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Lord Khabal
14-11-2008, 08:09
Personally I think that the best lvl2 wizs are nurgle because of the sniping first spell, regen 2nd spell and leave the lord for tzeentch (gateway).
Personally I don't think that the lore of tzeentch is that good. flickering fire and gateway are good but very random. I cant remenber how many time got something like a 4S5 hits from a 15+ spell.
call to glory requires you to play with infantry, kills 1 of your models and even could give 100VP to your opponent. This spell is very, very bad for 12+
pandemonium is good but only against other magic heavy armies. the Ld clause alone doesnt justifies the CCost of the spell.
The Ld based spell is very specific and useless against a lot of armies. The best thing it has done for me so far is killing harpies...
So all in all, I think that the lore of nurgle is more "reliable" than tzeentch, but if you have lucky dice, then tzeentch all the way.
Allways play with the puppet!!!!

shredshredxx
14-11-2008, 08:33
imo the biggest problem with WoC magic is the complete dearth of good looking sorcerer models.

amen bretheren.

they're supposedly wearing chaos armour and have melee stats similar to an empire general,

so why do they look like undiluted weaksauce??

/:

Djekar
14-11-2008, 12:05
so why do they look like undiluted weaksauce??

They have to fool everyone into thinking they are - it gives them the upper hand in those close duels, sort of like:

Sorcerer: "Oh my, you are truly a skilled opponent, sir Elf"
HE Noble: "Thank you, you aren't bad for a squishy wizard yourself"
Sorcerer: "Thank you! I must admit, that I don't think I can win if we keep going on like this"
HE Noble: "Then why are you smiling?"
Sorcerer: "Because I know something you do not know. [switches sword/axe/bigass hammer hand] I'm not undiluted weaksauce!"

... or you know, something close to that.

EvC
14-11-2008, 12:25
Personally when I actually BUY my Warriors army, the Nurgle Hero on Daemonic Steed will be representing my badass Father of Blades-Armour of Damnation Nurgle Sorcerer Lord just fine. And the squishy new Nurgle Sorcerer should fit into a chariot perfectly, too. And then the Tzeentch Disc Sorcerer even has an enchanted shield- it's all just too perfect, really...

Havock
14-11-2008, 13:15
The tzeentch birdman is quite nice IMO, it's a bit older but I'd say one of the better sculpts of that time. You could of course simply use hero models for them.

Stezerok
15-11-2008, 22:59
So has anyone tried the Tri-Tzeentch Alpha Strike? its something I've heard about with like three Tzeentch casters on discs, that stay within 3" of each other for Skull of Katam, for a total of +2 to cast. With of course other assortments of items...

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Malice&Mizery
16-11-2008, 09:16
So has anyone tried the Tri-Tzeentch Alpha Strike? its something I've heard about with like three Tzeentch casters on discs, that stay within 3" of each other for Skull of Katam, for a total of +2 to cast. With of course other assortments of items...

Nope, but I plan to use this trio vs my friends magic heavy N.Gobbos.

With the Infernal Puppet I will wreak havoc on thier Shamans when they miscast :D