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blackjack
09-11-2008, 19:10
Does a Herald of Nurgle on a Palaquin, (Or a Herald of Khorne on a jugger for that matter) count as 4 Plaugbearers for the purposes of determining Ranks? That is to say can 11 plaugbearers and a Herald on a Palaquin count as having +2 rank bonus?

If you know the answer please cite a page number in the rules or FAQ, we are trying to resolve an argument.


Thank you.

SolarHammer
09-11-2008, 19:18
Can we please get a sticky for this specific question?

Geez. Every time there's a new army (or even an army that came out 2 books ago...) people keep coming in here and thinking it's the first time anyone has ever put something bigger than an infantry model in a unit of infantry!

How do Palanquins go in units?
How do Necromancers in Corpse Carts go in units?
How do Orcs on Boars go in units of Boyz?
How does a Carnosaur go in a unit of Saurus?

It's the same question! Please make a sticky!

Braad
09-11-2008, 21:38
Ow, relax. The world is not going to explode.

Well... it might, but you won't notice.

Anyway, there are no specific rules for fitting larger models into rank&files. Refer to the normal rules for rank bonus.
So, the front rank needs 5 models (in this case, 4 plaguebearers, 1 palanquin), and all ranks of 5 models behind give bonus. So no, they can't give a rankbonus of +2 in this case.

The only rules I know that give exceptions to this, are the Lizardmen palanquin and the bretonnia lance.

Also, @ Solarhammer, I believe the sticky in this thread is meant to hold answers to often asked questions, but someone should post the answers there first.
And I'm not holding you back...

blackjack
09-11-2008, 22:42
thank you Brad.

SolarHammer
09-11-2008, 22:57
I don't think he's right on that by the way.

The rules say the unit has to be 5 models wide:

If your unit's formation is at least five models wide, you may claim a bonus of +1 for each rank behind the first htat the unit had at the start of that combat turn, up to a maximum of +3. The bonus can be claimed for an incomplete last rear rank, so long as it contains at least five models.

So 3 wide with a Herald in the front is 5 wide, as long as you have a third rank that has 5 models (the formation will be five models wide).

The only statement about the individual ranks being less than five models wide specifically refers only to the last rear rank when it is incomplete.

Bear in mind that if you take casualties over the course of the game so that your rear rank is one of the ranks with the Herald in it, you will lose your rank bonus, as your formation would become 4 wide.

loveless
09-11-2008, 23:19
Well...there's the funny thing about "A Rank has to have 5 models"

xPPxxx
xPPxxx
xxxxxx

Where P is a palanquin and x's are plaguebearers...technically speaking, there ARE 5 models in each of the first 2 ranks...it just so happens that they share a model.

Of course, I'm sure the BRB says something about that, but I still call poor wording. Let's just write in "Each rank must contain 5 mutually exclusive models to grant a rank bonus" :p

Gazak Blacktoof
10-11-2008, 00:20
I'm going to scan the relevant section from my copy of the old annuals tomorrow and post that up as PDF.

I still don't understand why GW hasn't answered this question in the FAQs for the current edition.

WLBjork
10-11-2008, 07:54
Eiter because they think it's obvious and not worthy of a Q&A, or else they actually want us to do it as per T10's diagram (floating around somewhere).

Braad
10-11-2008, 08:18
Yeah, T10's diagram... That thing must be legendary by now.

Anyway, 3+1=5? No rules says so. Your rear ranks have the same amount of models, not the same width, so actually AFAIK ruleswise you should have 4 plaguebearers in the front rank + the palanquin (who should go in only one rank), and 5 in the ranks behind. It's weird yes.

BUT! I think it is totally useless to go into that argument again. There is a thread pages and pages long about it, so just re-read that, and hope for some final answer from GW, cause it is quite likely that people will forever disagree on that.

And Solarhammer, please note that the way you describe it, is exactly the way I play it, and I will totally agree that anyone should follow this approach. Its just a really vague spot in the rules, with no actual ruling regarding this situation.

Maybe I should add that for the OP.
My first answer is 'ruleswise' as far as I could conclude from a big thread we had a while ago, since you asked for references to the specific rules. But it doesn't really reflect how I actually think about it, and if someone likes to play that the palanquin fills the ranks as 4 plaguebearers, I wouldn't make much fuss about it... I believe the old annuals solved the problem exactly like this, but these annuals are not legal anymore since they covered an old edition. But if people still keep to this ruling, they have my full support.

Otherwise Skarsnik would be a bit screwed...

Gazak Blacktoof
14-11-2008, 19:10
I said I'd post up the relevant section from the old annual (2003 chronicles)so I've attached it as a PDF to this post. Those that want to can obviously ignore it but its there for those that want it and don't have access to the out of print material from when this issue was last addressed officially.