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aj40k
10-11-2008, 12:01
Well this is my clubs house faq in responce to GW's newest DA FAQ found here (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1810079_DarkAngels_Oct_2008_5th_Edition_FAQ.pdf).

Basically its a house addition to the first question. Just fixing old equipment to the newer versions of the identical items. And mainly so that for our club games we wont need to spend time clarifying the rules before each match, we will have these simple amendments that we have all agreed upon.

Page 25 Codex Dark Angels.
The Narthecium/Reductor entry should be replaced with the following
Narthecium/Reductor: See page Command squad entry on page 55 of Codex Sapce Marines.

Page 28 Codex Dark Angels and page 48 of Codex Dark Angels.
The Cyclone Missile Launcher entry should be replaced with the following
Cyclone Missile Launcher: See the Termnators entry on page 64 of Codex Space Marines.

Page 38 Codex Dark Angels
The Psychic hood entry should be replaced with the following
Psychic hood: See the psychic hood entry on page 56 of Codex Space Marines.

Page 53 Codex Dark Angels
The Terminator Armour entry should be replaced with the following
Terminator Armour: See the Terminator Armour entry on page 102 of Codex Space Marines.

Page 54 Codex Dark Angels
The Combat Shield entry should be replaced with the following
Combat Shield: See the Combat Shield entry on page 100 of Codex Space Marines.

Page 54 Codex Dark Angels
The Storm Shield entry should be replaced with the following
Storm Shield: See the Storm Shield entry on page 101 of Codex Space Marines.

Page 55 Codex Dark Angels
The Dozer Blade entry should be replaced with the following
Dozer Blade: See the Dozer Blade entry on page 103 of Codex Space Marines.

Page 55 Codex Dark Angels
The Typhoon Missile Launcher entry should be replaced with the following
Typhoon Missile Launcher: See the Land Speeder entry on page 74 of Codex Space Marines.
Also note on page 85 of Codex Dark Angels the price of the Typhoon Missile Launcher should be changed from +10 points, to +40 points.

Page 87 Codex Dark Angels
The Dedicated Trasport Vehicles section should be replaced with
Dedicated Transport Vehicles: See page 135 of Codex Space Marines.

Page 87 and 88 Codex Dark Angels
The entries for 'Land Raider', 'Land Raider Crusader', 'Predator', Whirlwind' and 'Vindicator' should all be replaced with the relevant entry from Codex Space Marines on pages 142 and 143.

Rules not yet checked by local club
Page 36 and 80 Codex Dark Angels
The Company master stat line entry should be replaced with the following
WS 6 BS 5 S 4 T 4 W 3 I 5 A 3 Ld 10 Sv 3+

Pages 37 and 80 Codex Dark Angels
The Chaplain stat line entry should be replaced with the following
WS 5 BS 4 S 4 T 4 W 2 I 4 A 2 Ld 9 Sv 3+

Ok that brings the chaplains into par, well actually below par as their Ld is only 9, but I feel to keep the theme of the dark angels and interrogators it shouldn’t be raised.

Pages 38 and 81 Codex Dark Angels
The Librarian stat line entry should be replaced with the following
WS 5 BS 4 S 4 T 4 W 2 I 4 A 2 Ld 9 Sv 3+
Also the points cost should be changed from 120pts to 100pts.

Again brings the librarians under par but at least not above the norm.

Page 82 Codex Dark Angels
In the first paragraph of the Techmarines entry ignore the second sentence

Essentially making them take up a slot in the FoC.

Sorry if this is in the wrong section, wasn’t quite sure where to post. Basically im posting this here to get any advice and opinions on these rules, to see if there is anything these rules have missed etc. And most importantly would you agree to them if your opponent asked?

totaltyke
10-11-2008, 12:04
There has already been an FAQ to say they are not bringing the DA, SW, BT and BA codexes in line with the 'vanilla' marine book. Therefore, you should use the rules in your codex imho.

Bjorn
10-11-2008, 12:20
Hey guys I wrote some house rules for my Space Wolves it says I get everything for free and all my Troops get 10 Attacks cause they are awesome!

Please, no more DA whines for the Love of Russ.

Faust
10-11-2008, 12:44
Hey guys I wrote some house rules for my Space Wolves it says I get everything for free and all my Troops get 10 Attacks cause they are awesome!

Please, no more DA whines for the Love of Russ.

I am glad to see that the trolls are being kept feed today.

AJ40K

I understand the distress that many DAs are feeling right now. I agree with the recommended changes that you have proposed. Since this is a club vote then I leave it the club, but as another, more intelligent, post has been submitted remember that come an official tournament you will have to abide by the rules as written. Not the club amended rules. Though if you stay away from tournaments then great! Enjoy the game first and foremost.

Faust

aj40k
10-11-2008, 12:54
@ totaltyke Sorry I havnt found anything saying that, exceapt for maybe the vague answer in the DA FAQ. I understand in tournaments my army will more than likely have to use the rules from my specific codex. But these are more for our friendly/semi competitive matches. If there is an updated faq I’m not seeing can you please give a link, our club only made these house rules to make things clear for our games.

@ Bjorn I’m sorry if you got the impression that this was a whine, I’m simply trying to make our local games easier, as currently the faq I’m reading just makes everything very vague. If there is something I’m missing, please point it out, I would prefer to be using a GW rule than a house one. But in this case I think these amendments could help smooth our games and clarify things.

Bob5000
10-11-2008, 12:59
As a DH player , I have had to put up with inferior copies of the same SM weapons for some time now !

Coredump
10-11-2008, 14:55
Hmmm... why am I not shocked that it *doesn't* include using the C:SM psychic hood?

Yeah, lets take all of the good, and ignore the bad.

Bjornin
10-11-2008, 15:04
Really people, do we have to flame a guy for really trying to not screw his club's DA players? I fully support this adjustment. Personally I think that if its going to be done correctly, one should replace all common SM wargear and weapons in C:DA with their C:SM equivalent. Remember that not everyone plays in tournaments so a house rule is perfectly acceptable.

Bjorn
10-11-2008, 17:05
Hmmm... why am I not shocked that it *doesn't* include using the C:SM psychic hood?

Yeah, lets take all of the good, and ignore the bad.

Thank you. Yet more Proof DA are whiners. For every 1 Whine about Blood Angels and Black Templars there have been about 9001 Dark Angel Whines.

And I have yet to see any Space Wolves Players whining loudly about their Subpar HQ slots (which they are, but I love them anyway and would execute my gaming group for Heresy, Blasphemy and any other-y if they even consider letting me use C: SM HQ) which have been subpar since the 4th ed Marine codex (yes, that's right, Space Wolves have had 1 Codex in the same time as both Marines and Dark Angels have have gotten 3)

To be perfectly honest, these DA players should spend their energy learning how to use their army rather than trying to take all the good and ignore the bad from C: SM

Coredump
10-11-2008, 18:10
Really people, do we have to flame a guy for really trying to not screw his club's DA players? The DA players can't 'screwed'... they have a different codex with different rules, and different prices.

Sure the DA termies can't have a 3++ save, but then again, they get to come in first turn.

Lord Inquisitor
10-11-2008, 18:28
aj: you certainly got some unfair flack - this is at least a proactive stance and I think if it'll make gamers in your group more satisfied then it's a great idea. However, as coredump sarcastically pointed out, there ARE some negative aspects to the new codex.
- Psychic hoods
- Librarians/chaplains lower stats
- Scouts

Will you also be doing house rules for Daemonhunters, Witch Hunters, Blood Angels, etc?

afshinbb
10-11-2008, 18:41
well i see both sides, but i would say you cannot/should not take some of the gear and not all of it. either use all space marine gear or all your codex.

PotatoLegs
10-11-2008, 19:01
But these are just amendments for HIS club to use - if they all agree they are fair who are any of you to claim this guy's a whiner?

Coredump's being a prick about it, but his criticism that the inclusion of the SM rules is screwy is right - there needs to be more over-arching application of the SM rulesets than just bumping up all the weapons, as there are blaance issues at play here

Coredump
10-11-2008, 21:49
aj: you certainly got some unfair flack - this is at least a proactive stance and I think if it'll make gamers in your group more satisfied then it's a great idea. However, as coredump sarcastically pointed out, there ARE some negative aspects to the new codex.
- Psychic hoods
- Librarians/chaplains lower stats
- Scouts
But those are not the only negatives. The C:SM terminators can't DS on the first turn, The C:SM bikes can't come with a landspeeder, C:SM landspeeders are not scoring, C:SM bikes don't have a teleport homer, etc.

The codices are not made in a vacuum. DA termies have a distinct advantage over 'normal' termies; maybe there is a reason why they shouldn't get all the other toys...



But these are just amendments for HIS club to use - He posted the rules in a public forum.... the expectation is that people will comment on them. I find it interesting that everytime I hear about making things 'fair' it only includes getting the goodies.
I would never have gone to his gaming group and said anything, that is their choice. He decided to post here, so I get to comment.


Coredump's being a prick about it, Sarcastic maybe.... but your name calling is as incorrect as it is unwarranted.

PotatoLegs
10-11-2008, 22:06
He posted the rules in a public forum.... the expectation is that people will comment on them. I find it interesting that everytime I hear about making things 'fair' it only includes getting the goodies.
I would never have gone to his gaming group and said anything, that is their choice. He decided to post here, so I get to comment.
Well that all goes with out saying and that's exactly what I was agreeing with you on - this guy more obviously wants to run the inclusion of the rules past the people here to gauge whether he's heading in the right direction and your comment


Sarcastic maybe.... but your name calling is as incorrect as it is unwarranted.:rolleyes: Not that it matters anymore but your post was pretty hostile, as sarcasm tends to be

Shipmonkey
10-11-2008, 22:31
So DAs get to keep their non-elite slot using 2 wound Techmarines too?

Bob5000
10-11-2008, 22:53
Its of course up to the gaming club what they do , but as opinion has been asked ...

I have got to go with either using DA Codex , or SM Codex in its entirety , not a mixture .

Even with the best will in the world and a desire to be fair , I feel there could be an element of cherry-picking .

gunbunny242
10-11-2008, 23:12
I've done a rewrite of the DA codex for my friends to use (I'm fairly impartial as I play SW). I've used all the stats and wargear from C:SM, given them stubborn as a chapter tactic, as per the old, old dex and changed some of the special characters a bit.
One thing I did was to up the points cost of Belial, but keep termies the same as they only become overpowered when you can field lots of them as scoring. Also made Deathwing and Ravenwing command squads a proper entry so no 2+,3++, feel no pain scoring unit.
I think its pretty fairly balanced, DA keep their uniqueness but don't get access to all the new SM stuff, and the wargear all matches. I'm doing this for BA and Templars to, but not the Wolves, we don't need it....

aj40k
10-11-2008, 23:34
I am very sorry that this is causing such clash of views. I will add the psychic hood straight away, and thankyou for pointing it out. This is the feedback that I need, items that I have overlooked or didnít check because no one at our local club uses them, but they should still be in here.

Page 38 Codex Dark Angels
The Psychic hood entry should be replaced with the following
Psychic hood: See the psychic hood entry on page 56 of Codex Space Marines.

As for the chaplain and librarian having lower stats Iím trying to figure away to incorporate the newer versions fairly, I cannot simply drop the stats without changing either the price or wargear options. As the DA ones canít receive terminator armour, digital weapons etc.

But again I donít play with a chaplain or librarian so Ill ask my club what they think, if they are willing to take the change then great. The same problem arises with the Librarian. The points are higher in codex DA, and the psychic powers are debatably worse, giving less options etc. I think trying to lower their stats in that light might not work.

Soo, Iím thinking of maybe replacing both entries with the C:SM versions? The stats are lowered, but the restrictions are lifted so itís even for both codexs.
Any views and suggestions on this problem would be greatly appreciated.

As for scouts, points are different; they are elites not troops etc. They donít get any of the fancy equipment of C:SM version, most prominently the camo cloaks and free sniper rifles, along with the special sergeant.
For these reasons or club has decided to keep using the C:DA entry, it is not really 'better', and once again no one at my club uses them, the other elite options are just so much more appealing.
Also I feel that the only way to fix the entry would be a switch to the C:SM one, and that will make these amendments almost a complete copy of C:SM. Along with the questions dark angels players will be asking, 'what about the techmarines', I feel it will result in most units being cloned and that was not my intention. I was more focused on equipment and vehicles, admittedly because they are easier to fix, and are generally obvious.

@ Coredump: I see what you are saying about the deathwing and ravenwing units, but for them to become troops you must take a special character, just like C:SM can get bikes as troops if they take Khan or a captain on a bike, or get units like sternguard as troops if a specific character is taken. For that reason, along with the increased costs for both deathwing terminators and ravenwing bikes/landspeeders I do not see that as an issue.

Their are many special units that C:SM gets that C:DA do not, I accept that as the balancing force between the codexs, and keeps the distinct theme of the Codexs different and unique.


He posted the rules in a public forum.... the expectation is that people will comment on them. I find it interesting that everytime I hear about making things 'fair' it only includes getting the goodies.
I would never have gone to his gaming group and said anything, that is their choice. He decided to post here, so I get to comment.


I did post them in a public forum and you are entitled to your views and comments, I just ask that you can help me fix these amendments so that they are fair. I am not great at making rules, I am only trying to fix the current ones to be universal, for example a storm shield should have the same rules no matter who is using it. These rules are not perfect, a GW clarified FAQ would be allot better but our club feels the current stance or letting the players decide at the beginning of each match to be quite a pain. So if there is anything else I have left out please point it out, and even better offer a solution.

@ Lord Inquisitor: I will be doing one for Blood Angels, as our club has a player who uses them regularly, we have all already agreed to the ground rules, practically the same amendments here except for the transports and tanks, because of the overcharged engines. But those rules will be posted separately once we have completed this one. As for WH and DH, I am the only person at our club who has them, and I donít use them often, so they are lower in my priority, but will eventually get done. C:SW and C:BT Iím not sure about, I donít own a copy and no one at my club has them so they will most likely not be done, although I think they would be rather simple amendments.


Sorry again for any anger and frustration I have caused here, I am just trying to get help on making these rules fair, and getting peopleís views and opinions. Along with the question, would you agree to them if your opponent asked?

HiveFleetEzekial
10-11-2008, 23:49
Your idea would be best served in the Rules Devlopment section, rather than the general Rules section that deals with questions/clarifications/etc. on the actual rules as they are. (for future reference... http://warseer.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=17)

Just ask any mod/admin... they should be happy to oblidge, and relocate it for you. :)



And we've had more than enough 'whining' from all sides. Though it would server the public better if some people would keep their muzzles on, and get a broader picture, before jumping to conclusions and assuming that 1 to a few actual whiners equals 'all' of the Dark Angel opinions on the matter. (specialy when they've no right to counter-whine about their own codex.. since they actually do get to use some of the newere things and accompanying stats, because their codex tells them to) It does not. There have been plenty of (lengthy) threads detailing the broad spectrum of opinions from DA players.

HiveFleetEzekial
11-11-2008, 00:25
Oh, it's not *just* you... there've been several.. from all of the threads (space wolves, non-sm, and other 'nilla SM alike.. even a few, new, DA players still blind to GW's trends). 'Muzzle' was just a cute little catch-all term, for anyone that has their own knee-jerk reaction to a few whiners, instead of reading more, to 'shut their yaps'. :skull:

And 'secondly', *I* didn't ask for any opinions or feedback, nor did I say anything about anyone's responce of 'use your own codex'. Infact, I grudgingly tell people that, myself, plenty. (partly because it'll bring out GW's bad policies.. and get other people to not be so blind to them) I was refering, to the complaints against whiners, and your own 'complaint' that SW apparently... aren't so great anymore. Savvy?



And a quick note, just now catching this part. DA haven't had 3 codci since 3E. We had our 3E one, which got reprinted due to crappy designing, and our 4E one... which we're now forced to use as a 5E codex. (and ours, along with BA, nolonger say 'see codex SM' for 1/3 to 1/2 of our unit entries. SW, if any, are getting a buy, for now. being able to pull things, because their codex says they do, from the new SM 'dex)

Bjorn
11-11-2008, 00:46
And a quick note, just now catching this part. DA haven't had 3 codci since 3E. We had our 3E one, which got reprinted due to crappy designing, and our 4E one... which we're now forced to use as a 5E codex. (and ours, along with BA, nolonger say 'see codex SM' for 1/3 to 1/2 of our unit entries. SW, if any, are getting a buy, for now. being able to pull things, because their codex says they do, from the new SM 'dex)

Things were changed/added. IMO thats a new codex.

3 codex's and you still whinge. :eyebrows:

HiveFleetEzekial
11-11-2008, 00:53
In your opinion. Still doesn't change the fact that we'e only had 1 more codex than SW. It wasn't like they took out a whole design shift, just to fix 2 rules in the book. they simply changed it, in the midst of doing everything else, and slapped a 'second edition' stamp on it, and reprinted it. Same edition, 99.999998% the same rules. Same codex. (though it really makes one wonder, why the heck they couldn't simply do the same thing now, instead of taking the absolute lazy way out... )

And I'm not whining... I'm pointing out facts, and cautioning other people to be more open-minded about complaints. From my POV, your saying the SW are subpar is 'whining'. But go ahead and see them as you wish. I've moved on from GW 'the game'.

ehlijen
11-11-2008, 01:07
Given that the DA are really just minorly different codex marines, having been given that many codex editions is pretty good.

And wow, the DA have a slightly older codex. Tell that to DE, IG and Crons.

As it stands, the DA have some upsides and some downsides. Adding all the new stuff from the marine dex without also adding the downsides isn't really fair to the marine players. And if you add them too for balance, why not just play C:SM?

If anything, as a houserule try this:
Use C:SM
The following characters are allowed:
Azreal as C:DA, may take an honour guard. Chapter tactics: Stubborn
Sammael: 5 or more strong bikes become troops. May take a Command squad but it must be on bikes.
Belial: terminators become scoring. Command squad, if taken, must take termie armour + SB for 15pts a model
Ezekiel: use Tigurius rules
Or possibly cast one less power per turn but gain ezekiels stats.
I can't remember, was there a chaplain SC?

done.

Coredump
11-11-2008, 01:29
@ Coredump: I see what you are saying about the deathwing and ravenwing units, but for them to become troops you must take a special character,No, you don't. They are defined in the codex as a scoring unit, therefore they are a scoring unit.


for example a storm shield should have the same rules no matter who is using it.And this is where we will disagree. There are different chapters, they may/will have slightly different gear. Will everyone get overcharged engines? Baal Predators?
Why can't SM termies drop in first turn? Does everyone's bikes get teleport homers now?

There are two issues here (that I see) First is the belief that every storm shield, marine bike, landspeeder, terminator, etc must be the same. To me that is drastically limiting the distinction between chapters.
Second, is the game balance issue. Giving a termie a 3++ save is a big deal. Giving it a 3++ *and* letting them be troops *and* letting half of them DS in on the first turn. That is HUGE.

They always have the option of using the C:SM rules with the DA color scheme. If SM is better, go for it. But you give up all of the DA goodies. If the DA goodies are not worth giving up, then maybe you don't need all of the new SM toys.

HiveFleetEzekial
11-11-2008, 01:32
I can't remember, was there a chaplain SC?

There used to be. Two, total, at different times. Asmodai (the most recent, no fluff on where he went/what hapened to him) and Sapphon (the first, died).

PotatoLegs
11-11-2008, 01:36
Huh? Asmodai and Sapphon both came out with the AoD codex back in 2nd ed, and Sapphon was dropped from third onwards

HiveFleetEzekial
11-11-2008, 01:39
IIRC, AoD only had stats for Sapphon. It may have had both, in fluff and descriptions though. (need to go back through it. been a few years ;) )

PotatoLegs
11-11-2008, 01:45
I promise dude, Asmodai was a 2nd ed for the AoD codex release along with the models for Ezekiel and Azrael. He even had his own wargear cards for those special interrogation blades he has. I always used the model as Sapphon though, for the higher stats as well as the chance to take more and different wargear cards.

Lisiecki
11-11-2008, 01:50
GHASP!
WAITE
A fan FAQ that gives the DA all the best parts of Codex: Dark Angels AND C: Space Marines

My mind is boggled

BOGGLED!

Who POSSIBILITY could have seen this coming?

I mean, really, as long as were making up rules, why not just give storm shields a 1+ inv save and make thunderhammers Str 10 roll 32D6 for Armour pen, and automatically apply the "vehicle destroyed" result

HiveFleetEzekial
11-11-2008, 01:52
(yeay for going off-topic lol)

Well the figure everyone uses as Asmodai was originally supposed to represent Sapphon. Someone in GW at the time just goofed. The (Asmodai) stats may have come out in Dark Mellenium... again, it has been a few years (understatement lol).

PotatoLegs
11-11-2008, 02:07
I'll just add this one more reassertion than I'll stop going off-topic; no character rules were released with Dark Millenium, so they weren't in there. Not even the DA specific wargear cards were in there, they were only conceived and came out with Angel of Death.

Also i remember the codex and white dwarf when the model was released both label the model as being Asmodai. He may have been previously considered to represent Sapphon because the model comes with a power sword, and that's what Sapphon comes with his wargear. But as far as GW were considered when it came to release time, that particular model was Asmodai

I'm willing to bet money on this :P

Lord Inquisitor
11-11-2008, 02:08
As for the chaplain and librarian having lower stats I’m trying to figure away to incorporate the newer versions fairly, I cannot simply drop the stats without changing either the price or wargear options. As the DA ones can’t receive terminator armour, digital weapons etc.
Which is a reasonable position, you can just say you want to make the wargear and weaponry consistent and you don't want to touch stats or points if at all possible. Just bear in mind that this approach is almost universally a boost to the DA (with the exception of the hood). This isn't necessarily a bad thing - DA are generally slated as being somewhat underpowered, especially compared with the current SM codex - but it may feel some people feel that it is unfair, so be aware.


Soo, I’m thinking of maybe replacing both entries with the C:SM versions? The stats are lowered, but the restrictions are lifted so it’s even for both codexs.
You don't need to. Like you said, if you change too much, you can end up with what basically amounts to the SM codex, in which case why not just use the SM codex? Just be aware that there are aspects of the DA codex that are superior to the SM one.


@ Lord Inquisitor: I will be doing one for Blood Angels, as our club has a player who uses them regularly, we have all already agreed to the ground rules, practically the same amendments here except for the transports and tanks, because of the overcharged engines. But those rules will be posted separately once we have completed this one. As for WH and DH, I am the only person at our club who has them, and I don’t use them often, so they are lower in my priority, but will eventually get done. C:SW and C:BT I’m not sure about, I don’t own a copy and no one at my club has them so they will most likely not be done, although I think they would be rather simple amendments.
Fair enough. Obviously DA are the Codex that has attracted the most attention, and if this is the codex that's causing frustration in your group then that's what needs fixing. I guess it was more a poke at the Dark Angels players who seem to act like their army has been specifically snubbed, while there are a lot of other codexes that are equally out-of-date.


Along with the question, would you agree to them if your opponent asked?
Yes.

aj40k
11-11-2008, 04:09
Ok havnt ran this update through with the club yet, and wont get to for a couple of days but ive been thinking about it to much not to start working on it.

Pages 37 and 80 Codex Dark Angels
The Chaplain stat line entry should be replaced with the following
Ws 5 Bs 4 S 4 T 4 W 2 I 4 A 2 Ld 9 Sv 3+

Ok that brings the chaplains into par, well actually below par as their Ld is only 9, but I feel to keep the theme of the dark angels and interrogators it shouldn’t be raised.

Pages 38 and 38 Codex Dark Angels
The Librarian stat line entry should be replaced with the following
Ws 5 Bs 4 S 4 T 4 W 2 I 4 A 2 Ld 9 Sv 3+
Also the points cost should be changed from 120pts to 100pts.

Again brings the librarians under par but at least not above the norm.

Page 82 Codex Dark Angels
In the first paragraph of the Techmarines entry ignore the second sentence

Essentially making them take up a slot in the FoC.

@ Coredump:

No, you don't. They are defined in the codex as a scoring unit, therefore they are a scoring unit.
Where in the codex are they defined as a scoring unit, I cant find it so a page number would be great. The only way I can see is by taking Belail and taking them as troops.


There are two issues here (that I see) First is the belief that every storm shield, marine bike, landspeeder, terminator, etc must be the same. To me that is drastically limiting the distinction between chapters.

I’m sorry if I havn’t explained myself clearly, I believe all pieces of equipment would be almost universal equal in the Imperium, with STC’s and the adeptus mechanicus. Almost every vehicle would be as well, the structure would be the same, not necessarily the options available to it though due to chapter specific customizations to meet their particular environment and regular foes.

So a Dark Angels land speeder would be the same as a ultramarine land speeder in its structure, but the weapon options may be different. That being said, if both used a heavy flamer, both heavy flamers would be essentially the same, one wouldn’t be more powerful than the other, but one may cost more/be harder for the chapter to acquire.


Second, is the game balance issue. Giving a termie a 3++ save is a big deal. Giving it a 3++ *and* letting them be troops *and* letting half of them DS in on the first turn. That is HUGE.

I agree a 3++ save is a big deal, but I don’t see why two identical terminator squads would have different saves, especially when the weaker squad is listed at more points.
To make them troops as far as I’m aware, you MUST take the special character, this is no different to making sternguard a scoring unit, or taking bikes as troops.
To deepstrike first turn, only half your deathwing terminators squads come in. When you take into consideration their costs, and max unit size of 5 it really isn’t a huge bonus. Maximum squads your going to be able to deepstrike in first turn in a 1500point game is 3. That’s only 15 terminators arriving first turn, and that’s if you completely max out taking terminators and nothing else. Most people I play with would be able to deal with that quite well.


Why can't SM termies drop in first turn? Does everyone's bikes get teleport homers now?

Why can’t DA drop pods arrive first turn? No not everyone gets bikes with teleporter homers, but then again not everyone’s bikes cost as much or their chapter organization similar to dark angels.

Lisiecki
11-11-2008, 04:14
Iím sorry if I havnít explained myself clearly, I believe all pieces of equipment would be almost universal equal in the Imperium, with STCís and the adeptus mechanicus. Almost every vehicle would be as well, the structure would be the same, not necessarily the options available to it though due to chapter specific customizations to meet their particular environment and regular foes.


Yes...

Because the Space Marine chapter who, on a regular basis, randomly vanish in the middle of battles, and purge populations if they learn about the fallen would be given the same war gear as those decended from the most trusted warriors of the imperium, and those weapons given to Logan's warriors, Logan being the most beloved warriors of humanity...

Because, in the grim darkness of the far future... there are no factory defects...

chromedog
11-11-2008, 05:41
I call pfah!

Play them as 'green marines' using C:SM or as your beloved DA. You picked the army, you can lie in the bed you made of it.

Use them as listed in either codex - ONE OR the other. Not some mish-mash of both.

Sheesh! DA seem to whine about as much as CSM players.

Lisiecki
11-11-2008, 05:45
I call pfah!

Play them as 'green marines' using C:SM or as your beloved DA. You picked the army, you can lie in the bed you made of it.

Use them as listed in either codex - ONE OR the other. Not some mish-mash of both.

Sheesh! DA seem to whine about as much as CSM players.

No No

The Dark Angels deserve all the best toys from C:SM
Crisis Suits.
DA characters should have the same upgrade options as Tyrnids
and the Cover saves of Ork Bikes

its fluffy...

chromedog
11-11-2008, 06:08
How about a simple die roll.

In any game with a DA army and any other, roll 1d6. On result of 1+, the DA win, gain maximum killpoints, and get to do a victory dance. This then frees up the opponent to go play someone else.

In a DA vs DA match: Roll 1d6. On a 1+, they (the players) kill each other in an emo style suicide pact. This then frees up all other non-DA players from having to play against two less DA players.

Lisiecki
11-11-2008, 06:15
How about a simple die roll.

In any game with a DA army and any other, roll 1d6. On result of 1+, the DA win, gain maximum killpoints, and get to do a victory dance. This then frees up the opponent to go play someone else.

In a DA vs DA match: Roll 1d6. On a 1+, they (the players) kill each other in an emo style suicide pact. This then frees up all other non-DA players from having to play against two less DA players.

My god, its so clear to me now

Although i don't really care about it from a rules point of view
What makes my teeth itch is the idea that the DA and BA successor legions WOULDN'T get the factory defects.

"hey you guys, ya, you know the ones who are known to randomly turn on imperial citizens, ya, heres the good ****, so this why, when you inventively turn on us, youll be harder to kill"

CthulhuDalek
11-11-2008, 06:29
I actually recently wrote rules to incorporate like 6-7 Space Marine Special Characters from BA, Dark Angels, BT etc so that people could use them in Codex: Space Marines rather than using the new codex's rules for old dexes.

Lisiecki
11-11-2008, 06:33
I actually recently wrote rules to incorporate like 6-7 Space Marine Special Characters from BA, Dark Angels, BT etc so that people could use them in Codex: Space Marines rather than using the new codex's rules for old dexes.

So, instead of just encouraging people to use the rules for the chapters there playing. Your method to not get people to randomly mix rules, was to completly make some up?

hey why not

Dante leading a unit of 10 Assault termies with SS and Thunder hammers must be a thing of beauty

DarkstarSabre
11-11-2008, 07:05
Hmmm... why am I not shocked that it *doesn't* include using the C:SM psychic hood?

Yeah, lets take all of the good, and ignore the bad.

Literacy. It is your friend.


Page 38 Codex Dark Angels
The Psychic hood entry should be replaced with the following
Psychic hood: See the psychic hood entry on page 56 of Codex Space Marines.

Lisiecki
11-11-2008, 07:07
Literacy. It is your friend.

Dark Angels Librarians use the rules Elrod uses
Its fluffy

DarkstarSabre
11-11-2008, 07:08
Dark Angels Librarians use the rules Elrod uses
Its fluffy

Bad troll is bad.

Come back armed or not at all.

BACK TO THE KITCHEN.

Lisiecki
11-11-2008, 07:11
Bad troll is bad.

Come back armed or not at all.

BACK TO THE KITCHEN.

LOL
Am i a troll?
Eh i honestly don't think so, this has just become my reaction to DA and BA players saying they want all the cool new toys in C:SM.
For what i can see, no reason other than there bright and shiny and they want them.
Hey, maybe ill go for them, Deathwing with C:SM SS sounds cool

Shadowfax
11-11-2008, 07:13
Literacy. It is your friend.
So is deduction.


Last edited by aj40k : 11-11-2008 at 05:12.

Bob5000
11-11-2008, 07:22
Would this thread exist if the new Codex:SM has less shiny toys than the DA Codex ?

Would DA players be eager to downgrade their gear and options with a percieved worse SM Codex ?

Maybe it would be the other way around , with SM players eager to 'upgrade' to DA , who knows .

Lisiecki
11-11-2008, 07:29
Maybe it would be the other way around , with SM players eager to 'upgrade' to DA , who knows .

*COUGH*
STRENGTH 4 SHOTGUNS
*COUGH*

DarkstarSabre
11-11-2008, 07:38
LOL
Am i a troll?
Eh i honestly don't think so, this has just become my reaction to DA and BA players saying they want all the cool new toys in C:SM.
For what i can see, no reason other than there bright and shiny and they want them.
Hey, maybe ill go for them, Deathwing with C:SM SS sounds cool

Well, to be honest?

This old chestnut isn't about everyone wanting the new shiny toys.

I've not seen a damn DA or BA player asking for a Thunderfire Cannon, Land Raider Redeemer or Vanguard or Sternguard veterans.

What I have seen is people asking for items that are found in multiple codexes to have the same rules. They've even stated that they're willing to pay the points for it and take the good and the bad simply for the sake of consistency.

Things like Land Raider and Drop Pod carrying capacities. Things like the Storm Shield's save and the rate of fire of a Cyclone Missile Launcher.

What makes it even more amusing is that background-wise it would make sense. STCs folks, STCs. The Imperium by and large uses identical equipment across the board. A Storm Shield is a Storm Shield. A Land Raider is a Land Raider. For it to spontaneously be different based on the colour scheme is downright retarded.

You want different Land Raiders based on the preferences of the chapters using them? Modified Land Raiders? We call those the Crusader and Redeemer. The standard Land Raider is a universal pattern used by just about every loyallist and traitor SM legion and their dog. Until they start to provide us with different models for the different 'rules' for standard equipment it should function like what it looks like, regardless of who's using it. Imagine the outcry if when the IG codex was released they announced that IG bolt pistols would have 24" range and AP2. C:SM players would be fuming and demand this and that for it.

Now you know how DA, BA, Daemonhunter, BT and to a lesser extent CSM players feel about it.

It was never about the new toys. It was always about the standardisation of equipment across the board as it has always been and always should have been.

Lisiecki
11-11-2008, 07:43
Well, to be honest?

This old chestnut isn't about everyone wanting the new shiny toys.

I've not seen a damn DA or BA player asking for a Thunderfire Cannon, Land Raider Redeemer or Vanguard or Sternguard veterans.

What I have seen is people asking for items that are found in multiple codexes to have the same rules. They've even stated that they're willing to pay the points for it and take the good and the bad simply for the sake of consistency.

Things like Land Raider and Drop Pod carrying capacities. Things like the Storm Shield's save and the rate of fire of a Cyclone Missile Launcher.

What makes it even more amusing is that background-wise it would make sense. STCs folks, STCs. The Imperium by and large uses identical equipment across the board. A Storm Shield is a Storm Shield. A Land Raider is a Land Raider. For it to spontaneously be different based on the colour scheme is downright retarded.

You want different Land Raiders based on the preferences of the chapters using them? Modified Land Raiders? We call those the Crusader and Redeemer. The standard Land Raider is a universal pattern used by just about every loyallist and traitor SM legion and their dog. Until they start to provide us with different models for the different 'rules' for standard equipment it should function like what it looks like, regardless of who's using it. Imagine the outcry if when the IG codex was released they announced that IG bolt pistols would have 24" range and AP2. C:SM players would be fuming and demand this and that for it.

Now you know how DA, BA, Daemonhunter, BT and to a lesser extent CSM players feel about it.

It was never about the new toys. It was always about the standardisation of equipment across the board as it has always been and always should have been.

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166004


EDIT


Well honestly maybe were seeing diffrent threads.
I, personally, have seen quite a few talking about how DA, BA and CSM should get the new toys because they deserve them.

DarkstarSabre
11-11-2008, 07:44
So is deduction.

Then show me where those who leapt on the OP and ripped into him in a quite blatant display of trolling said 'Sorry, we see you added that.' The guy made a post, admittedly in the wrong forum, of a House Rules FAQ that attempts to do something with the DA due to the nature of GW's current vague DA FAQ.

His response, as opposed to suggestions of what he can do to balance and improve it is blatant trolling.

DarkstarSabre
11-11-2008, 07:45
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166004


Great. Always one who has to go and break the damn rule, isn't there? *Shakes fist* You guys! Stop being ******! You're not making it easier for me to try and defend you!

Lisiecki
11-11-2008, 07:49
Great. Always one who has to go and break the damn rule, isn't there? *Shakes fist* You guys! Stop being ******! You're not making it easier for me to try and defend you!

/me shrugs

Around the same time there was a thread about how Chaos Marines should get stuff, because, you know they should get toys that were invtened centuries after the fall. I know that you haven't commented on this, and im not trying to put words in your mouth, but pretty much every army with the word "Marine" in it has said that its "fluffy" to get the new stuff in the new codex.

Alot of people, have in the past few months said that there army should get cool stuff, and used fluff or "Because i want it" as a reasion

DarkstarSabre
11-11-2008, 07:52
Bugger fluff. I just want standardised equipment across the board. The ability of a Land Raider to carry more or less people depending on whether it's got spikes on, is painted grey, silver, blue, red, black or green is downright retarded from a gameplay view. Considering that they tried to simplify 40k down from what it had turned into in 2nd ed. (Oh. My. God.) they've started to go in reverse.

MadDoc
11-11-2008, 07:57
LOL
Am i a troll?

Your posts certainly suggest it.


Eh i honestly don't think so, this has just become my reaction to DA and BA players saying they want all the cool new toys in C:SM.

Your ignorance of what many DAs players actually want is far from a justification for trolling, which is what posts like yours basically amount to.


For what i can see, no reason other than there bright and shiny and they want them.

Oh really? So I want 6++ Combat Shields because they're bright and shiny? Or Chaplains with worse stats? Because, of course, they're so bright and shiny too... :rolleyes:

And before you try and counter with... "So why do you want the new stuff then?", who said anything about wanting new stuff? What most of us (at least from what I've gleened) want is for the common gear and troops we already have to be consistant between the lists.

To further head you off, before you yet again say something out-and-out wrong:
-Ravenwing bikers are different to SM bikers, always have been, and so they should be different in the rules (SM bikers are not Ravenwing, do not have RW training and serve a different role on the battlefield). Suggesting otherwise will only be a display of ignorance.
-Deathwing are different to standard Terminator Veterans. Why do Deathwing have DWA? Because Deathwing are the masters of the Teleport Assault (check the background). Why are they Fearless when normal Terminators aren't? Because DW are selected from the most mentally strong and resolute members of a Chapter noted as one of the most stubborn, unflinching and implacable Chapters around.

Alessio's flippant and ill considered attempt at a fluff justification for the discrepency, showed a total lack of understanding. To blithely say its because the Ultramarines and their fan-boy Chapters get their superior kit from Mars, which the DA/BA/BT don't (because its not like they send there Techmarines to Mars to train as well :rolleyes:) because they don't have as close a relationship with the Mechanicum of Mars (because they haven't given the Fabricator General a handjob like old Marneus has), completely fails to take into account several major things, not least of which is if the kit comes from Mars, then how come the Grey Knights (who also get their kit from Mars and are noted as getting the very best the Imperium and Mechanicus have to offer) kit is inferior to that used by the UMs and their besties? And lets not even get into why GK assualt cannons aren't Heavy 4 Rending...

Well thought out answer he gave there, I don't think...


Hey, maybe ill go for them, Deathwing with C:SM SS sounds cool

Go on, keep on proving how little understanding you really have of the situation...

Lungboy
11-11-2008, 07:58
Great. Always one who has to go and break the damn rule, isn't there? *Shakes fist* You guys! Stop being ******! You're not making it easier for me to try and defend you!

Ignore all his DA threads, he posts them ad nauseum, even though he has said several times that he doesn't even play the game.

Sekhmet
11-11-2008, 08:31
Also I feel that the only way to fix the entry would be a switch to the C:SM one, and that will make these amendments almost a complete copy of C:SM.

But you see, that's the point. The Dark Angels mostly follow the Codex, the main difference being their bike and terminator fetish, with smaller differences like mortis dreadnoughts, interrogator-chaplains, special characters and new librarian powers. But besides that, they really should be 90% "Codex."

And there is the problem of balance with the Deathwing.
DA terminators can teleport in first turn.
DA terminators are fearless.
DA terminators can be scoring.
DA stormshields give 4++ in closecombat only, C:SM stormshields give 3++ in closecombat AND shooting, a huge difference.
DA can take stormshields in their REGULAR terminator squads, meaning you can get a terminator squad with 2-3 models with a 3++ save to protect the heavy weapon. Hell, I'm sure everyone will upgrade their Sgt to TH/SS so they have at least some protection from plasma and lascannons, if not 1-2 more models as well. Basically you'll get 2-3 TH/SS equipped terminators in every DA terminator squad. No one's going to miss 4 bolter shots for double the survivability against anti-tank shooting.
Upgrading cyclone missiles will just make the obvious choice of maxing out on DA terminators even easier, especially since they're also cheaper in the DA codex than the SM codex.

Honestly, if DA terminators didn't get nerfed at all and just got the new stormshields and new cyclones, I'd make a DW army exactly laid out as above, probably 2 TH/SS, 2 regular and one with a cyclone... and maybe 1 squad as 2 th/ss 2 lightning claws and a heavy flamer, just for variety.

ehlijen
11-11-2008, 11:37
To all those who want standardised gear but not standardised stats and special rules:

How different can bikers be from one another when for example, apart from equipment, bikers and devestators are identical?

A space marine is a space marine. Every space marine is a tiny god of war in his own right, no matter the chapter or special training (apparantly).

Whether they train to snipe or fly and chop, they have the exact same statlines. If two space marines from to completely different training paths are identical in stats and special rules, why are two marines from different chapters but the same training path so different?

If you want your special marines to be different, you'll have to live with your special marines' special gear being different.

Bob5000
11-11-2008, 12:58
I am all for standardisation for identical equipment

Starting DH a few years ago I had a less than enjoyable time trying to figure out whether my Assault cannons were the same as SM ones , the Landraider and Crusader had POTMS etc . was told in semi-official GW FAQ on the old forums and by letter reply to GW that I could use the SM codex stats .

Later , GW tournies rules codeci to be used as written , and a general policy adopted of standalone codeci . which I wish they had just said earlier , I can accept that , makes life simpler .

Complicating matters now is GW in a FAQ contradicting the standalone policy ( by opponents permission of course ) perhaps to appease disgruntled DA players .

For goodness sake GW , either scrap the variant SM chapter codeci if you cant be consistent with the wargear , OR stick with the principle of standalone Codeci

Shadowfax
11-11-2008, 16:17
To all those who want standardised gear but not standardised stats and special rules:

How different can bikers be from one another when for example, apart from equipment, bikers and devestators are identical?

A space marine is a space marine. Every space marine is a tiny god of war in his own right, no matter the chapter or special training (apparantly).

Whether they train to snipe or fly and chop, they have the exact same statlines. If two space marines from to completely different training paths are identical in stats and special rules, why are two marines from different chapters but the same training path so different?

If you want your special marines to be different, you'll have to live with your special marines' special gear being different.
This is nonsense.

Differences between the way near-identical units function can be explained away as tactical/organizational predilections. Differences between identical wargear are unexplainable. Unless someone wants to propose that Dark Angels intentionally avoid training with their Storm Shields, or intentionally damage their Cyclone Missile Launchers, or intentionally leave unoccupied space in their Land Raiders (I guess the Watchers in the Dark have to sit somewhere).

Lisiecki
11-11-2008, 16:48
This is nonsense.

Differences between the way near-identical units function can be explained away as tactical/organizational predilections. Differences between identical wargear are unexplainable. Unless someone wants to propose that Dark Angels intentionally avoid training with their Storm Shields, or intentionally damage their Cyclone Missile Launchers, or intentionally leave unoccupied space in their Land Raiders (I guess the Watchers in the Dark have to sit somewhere).


Im really serious about this. In this grim dark future there are no factory defects, ever?
If there are factory defects, then Forge Worlds would send the good stuff, in equal measure to the most trusted of all space marines, an the least trusted?
If all technology is completly static, WTF dose Mentor Legion do?

Bjorn
11-11-2008, 17:21
Well don't forget the Dark Angels are really Chaos Worshipping untrustworthy scum so it makes sense that those Inquisitors in the know fiddle it so DA get crap Equipment :3

Coredump
11-11-2008, 17:23
Differences between the way near-identical units function can be explained away as tactical/organizational predilections. Differences between identical wargear are unexplainable. Unless someone wants to propose that Dark Angels intentionally avoid training with their Storm Shields, or intentionally damage their Cyclone Missile Launchers, or intentionally leave unoccupied space in their Land Raiders (I guess the Watchers in the Dark have to sit somewhere).
Again, there are two different ideas behind this. Fluff. Game balance.

Most here seem to be arguing on Fluff. Okay,
But it makes perfect Fluff sense that two landraiders are different.
Maybe one chapter has started using different materials, or a different design that is untested in battle so no one else is willing to try. Or maybe one chapter prefers more redundancy in the support systems, so they can't fit as many marines in the transport section.
Or maybe it *is* a function of the units. Perhaps DA termies are spending so much time learning how to do a rapid DS, that they are not practicing with the Storm Shield, so they are not as good with it. You can sell F-16s to another country, doesn't mean they will be as good with them if they don't spend as much time training.


But, there *is* game balance issues to deal with. As I have said, it is one thing to give a termie 3++ saves.
It is another to give it to a termie that can come in turn one, and has an option to count as troops, and to have a ton of termies.

Lisiecki
11-11-2008, 17:25
Well don't forget the Dark Angels are really Chaos Worshipping untrustworthy scum so it makes sense that those Inquisitors in the know fiddle it so DA get crap Equipment :3

How would the inqusition know that?
After all, all of the inquisitors that are sent to the rock, never report in,
or come back...

NOTHING suspicious there

Wintermute
11-11-2008, 18:14
I've moved the thread to the Rules Development Forum at aj40k's request.

Wintermute

CthulhuDalek
11-11-2008, 18:38
So, instead of just encouraging people to use the rules for the chapters there playing. Your method to not get people to randomly mix rules, was to completly make some up?

hey why not

Dante leading a unit of 10 Assault termies with SS and Thunder hammers must be a thing of beauty

Well, actually I made it that Dante allows you to take Chapter Tactics: Furious Charge. And he has some other cool rules. Made it so that he was more like the other Chapter Masters. He basically would allow you to field a Blood Angels army minus Death Company using the space marines codex. That's why I made him cost 250 points...

If you take Lemartes he allows Death Company to be an "upgraded" assault squad.

Dante can still lead thunder hammer and storm shield termies in the blood angel codex-- except they're weaker. In my "revision" Dante costs more, gets one less attack and the termies are in line with the new codex.

I also made a codex amendment: "If terminator armor is taken on a captain, terminators may be taken as troops. If a jump pack is taken, assault squads may be taken as troops."

That way you could have DW, BA, etc etc.

I also made rules for an Emp's Champ...

Lisiecki
11-11-2008, 19:27
Well, actually I made it that Dante allows you to take Chapter Tactics: Furious Charge. And he has some other cool rules. Made it so that he was more like the other Chapter Masters. He basically would allow you to field a Blood Angels army minus Death Company using the space marines codex. That's why I made him cost 250 points...

If you take Lemartes he allows Death Company to be an "upgraded" assault squad.

Dante can still lead thunder hammer and storm shield termies in the blood angel codex-- except they're weaker. In my "revision" Dante costs more, gets one less attack and the termies are in line with the new codex.

I also made a codex amendment: "If terminator armor is taken on a captain, terminators may be taken as troops. If a jump pack is taken, assault squads may be taken as troops."

That way you could have DW, BA, etc etc.

I also made rules for an Emp's Champ...

So...
You can take Terminators and assault squads, as troops?

solvay
11-11-2008, 20:19
hmm well in my opinion if any of you have noticed the uk gt heat 2 results youll notice that with only 2 marine qualifiers and quite a few dark angels with warseers own darkangel dentist coming 2nd i do believe (gratz to him)
this can sort of show people that dark angels dont need all the fancy marines wargear as they have there own combinations and options making them a stronger army

CthulhuDalek
12-11-2008, 09:17
So...
You can take Terminators and assault squads, as troops?

Yeah, if you want to take two captains...

Not like that army wouldn't be expensive...

Lisiecki
12-11-2008, 11:56
Yeah, if you want to take two captains...

Not like that army wouldn't be expensive...

expensive

but fluffy

And hey

Furious charge termies! :)

Lisiecki
12-11-2008, 17:47
Waite, this is cool
So i can take Termis as Troops.
take a death co
AND i can have an eperiors champion

Dude

Where do you play, i have to get in on this

I mean so far, ive lost one game with 5th ed Space Marines

Death Co with favored foe rules, would make sure i never did again

MadDoc
12-11-2008, 20:40
To all those who want standardised gear but not standardised stats and special rules:

Shared rules and units should be common, since Deathwing, Ravenwng and Company Vets (ugh, keep your Vanguard/Sternguard, who needs them...) are unique units they can't be compared on the basis of Special Rules with any equivalent UM unit (as they don't exist, you want Fearless and DWA on UM Terminators (quite apart from it being completely at odds with the background) if you pay the extra points that DW pay for those abilities (and want to suffer the added penalty of limited squad size) then go right ahead (I wouldn't play you though, because your army would be spitting in the face of the background)).


How different can bikers be from one another when for example, apart from equipment, bikers and devestators are identical?

Did you not read my post or were you just not paying attention?


-Ravenwing bikers are different to SM bikers, always have been, and so they should be different in the rules (SM bikers are not Ravenwing, do not have RW training and serve a different role on the battlefield). Suggesting otherwise will only be a display of ignorance.
-Deathwing are different to standard Terminator Veterans. Why do Deathwing have DWA? Because Deathwing are the masters of the Teleport Assault (check the background). Why are they Fearless when normal Terminators aren't? Because DW are selected from the most mentally strong and resolute members of a Chapter noted as one of the most stubborn, unflinching and implacable Chapters around.

Pretty straight forward there. Anything that I needed to expand on?


A space marine is a space marine. Every space marine is a tiny god of war in his own right, no matter the chapter or special training (apparantly).

Stats do not a unit make. Stats represent a models comparative physical capabilities, its only combined with a units Special Rules that you can fully define it.


Whether they train to snipe or fly and chop, they have the exact same statlines. If two space marines from to completely different training paths are identical in stats and special rules, why are two marines from different chapters but the same training path so different?

Oh, I must have missed the background stating that UM bikers have the same training as Ravenwing bikers... :eyebrows: Or perhaps the reason I haven't read that is because they don't.

Seriously, what are you talking about? Since when have UM (or whatever Chapter you choose (arguably WS, but only based on the shortlived IA retcon)) bikers been trained to be anywhere near as good in the saddle as Ravenwing, let alone on par with them?


If you want your special marines to be different, you'll have to live with your special marines' special gear being different.

Special gear being different is fine, shared/common gear being dfferent on the other hand is not.

@Lisiecki - Still trolling? Seriously man, give it a rest.

Lisiecki
12-11-2008, 20:43
@Lisiecki - Still trolling? Seriously man, give it a rest.

Who's Trolling?
I would honestly like to play with that list, sounds like the power level of movie marines, and I've always desired a way to use smaller, more elite marine lists

aj40k
12-11-2008, 23:33
Well I think this faq is almost done unless anyone else can point out any entries were identicle common equipment has differant rules listed, or identicle items with differant points values etc.

One last entry change, if the chaplains and librarians are to have their stats down graded I have been asked by the club to raise the ws of a company master to 6, so it is the same as a captain.

Page 36 and 80 Codex Dark Angels
The Company master stat line entry should be replaced with the following
WS 6 BS 5 S 4 T 4 W 3 I 5 A 3 Ld 10 Sv 3+

The next issue is Azrael, Belail and Sammael, would their WS attribute also be increased to 6. Im not sure about this one, it obviosly should but im not sure if their points should be increased.

I would greatly appreciate any feedback and opinions on this issue, thanks.

CthulhuDalek
13-11-2008, 04:31
Waite, this is cool
So i can take Termis as Troops.
take a death co
AND i can have an eperiors champion

Dude

Where do you play, i have to get in on this

I mean so far, ive lost one game with 5th ed Space Marines

Death Co with favored foe rules, would make sure i never did again

The way you'd want it to go would not actually work, the way I've designed it...

You *could* take Lord Dante, a Captain with Terminator armour and an Emperor's Champion.

The Emperor's champion, I designed as an upgrade character.

Plus, the Emp's champs vows, I made count as Chapter Tactics as well.

You could get Furious Charging terminators OR you could get preferred enemy terminators but not both.

I also changed the Emperor's champion's vows in order to make more sense for 5th ed.

So, for the build you want, it would cost a minimum of...

250 for my version of Dante.
+100 to upgrade a Chapter Champion to Emperor's Champion.
115 for a minimum honour guard unit.
At least 140 for a terminator captain.
Throw in Jump Packs for the honour guard(part of MY Dante's special rules.) and you have around 700 points in HQ units...

However, if you wanted to field a Blood Angels force with my rules all you'd have to do is take Dante, or a Captain with Jump Pack. Throw in Lemartes as a second HQ choice and you have almost every element of a Blood Angels list, but using the marine list.

also, you could now field a reserve company if you wanted by taking a Captain with Jump Pack, or ANY first company(not just deathwing) by taking a captain with terminator armour.

Lisiecki
14-11-2008, 05:57
@Lisiecki - Still trolling? Seriously man, give it a rest.

Oh, and, honestly, what trolling have i done here?
People keep asking for fluff related reasons that the Dark Angels wouldnt get as nice of toys as other chapters do.

Is the answer ive been giving incorrect relating to fluff?
Are they not mistrusted?
Do inquisitors that are sent to the rock, ever come home?

MadDoc
14-11-2008, 07:04
Does the Adeptus Mechanicus operate largely independent of the Administratum (and frequently at odds with members of the Inquisition)?

Yes.

Do Dark Angels send their Techmarines to Mars to be trained by the Mechanicum?

Yes.

Do Dark Angels Techmarines therefore have (basically) the same level of training as the Techmarines of other Chapters? And by extension, do the DA therefore have the same relationship/closeness to the Mechanicus as those same Chapters?

Yes, and yes.

Sorry Lisiecki, I must've missed the part in all that (the relevant) background that supports the DAs not having comparable equipment. :eyebrows:

More relevant... want a fix? Here (http://www.geocities.com/mcbuff.geo/DarkAngels5thEdAlt.pdf). Not unbalancing in the slightest.

CthulhuDalek
14-11-2008, 08:48
Does the Adeptus Mechanicus operate largely independent of the Administratum (and frequently at odds with members of the Inquisition)?

Yes.

Do Dark Angels send their Techmarines to Mars to be trained by the Mechanicum?

Yes.

Do Dark Angels Techmarines therefore have (basically) the same level of training as the Techmarines of other Chapters? And by extension, do the DA therefore have the same relationship/closeness to the Mechanicus as those same Chapters?

Yes, and yes.

Sorry Lisiecki, I must've missed the part in all that (the relevant) background that supports the DAs not having comparable equipment. :eyebrows:

More relevant... want a fix? Here (http://www.geocities.com/mcbuff.geo/DarkAngels5thEdAlt.pdf). Not unbalancing in the slightest.

It's missing the Redeemer. aha, nice changes!

MadDoc
14-11-2008, 09:03
It's missing the Redeemer. aha, nice changes!

'Missing' would suggest that it should be there, therefore it isn't 'missing' it... ;)

Kurisu313
14-11-2008, 12:20
If I was going to try and reconcile DA with C:SM, I'd probably just use the SM 'dex and replace all the special characters with the DA SC, buffing WS to 6 where appropriate. Telion and Chronus would stay, and I'd probably ditch the Vanguards and perhaps Thunderfire and Redeemer as conflicts of fighting style.

I'd suggest something similar for BA, but ditching the sternguard for the ability to upgrade 1 unit of vanguard to death company or something, along with Jump pack captains being allowed jump pack command squads.

I'd suggest that Black Templars and SW are less compatible, but I'm unfamiliar with them.

But that's it. For 99% of the time, DA and BA equal SM with different SC's. If an opponent just wanted to switch that, I'd probably be fine with letting him.

Lisiecki
14-11-2008, 13:17
Sorry Lisiecki, I must've missed the part in all that (the relevant) background that supports the DAs not having comparable equipment. :eyebrows:



Thats cool
Im not going to actively disagree with you any more, because all that dose is get me accused of trolling. I disagree with you, you disagree with me, however, im not just going to throw away every thought you have because i disagree with it.
Please count this as a win if you see fit

MadDoc
14-11-2008, 13:46
Thats cool

Its also fluff accurate.


Im not going to actively disagree with you any more, because all that dose is get me accused of trolling.

No, being purposely obtuse (note I did not say ignorant), blatantly sarcastic/mocking to the point of taking the p*ss, baiting people (knowingly making controversial/inflammatory remarks), and other troll like behaviour gets you accused of trolling. You should be able to disagree without needing to resort to troll like behaviour.


I disagree with you, you disagree with me, however, im not just going to throw away every thought you have because i disagree with it.

I'm a little perplexed as to how you can disagree with the facts of the background (which is the basis of my position in its entirety) within the framework of that self same background. :confused:

I honestly don't see the room for confusion within the strictures of the background.

Lisiecki
14-11-2008, 14:23
Its also fluff accurate.
No, being purposely obtuse (note I did not say ignorant), blatantly sarcastic/mocking to the point of taking the p*ss, baiting people (knowingly making controversial/inflammatory remarks), and other troll like behaviour gets you accused of trolling. You should be able to disagree without needing to resort to troll like behaviour.

WOW well i was going to try to be a nice girl here, and wow, this is what i get.
Lucky me




I'm a little perplexed as to how you can disagree with the facts of the background (which is the basis of my position in its entirety) within the framework of that self same background. :confused:

I honestly don't see the room for confusion within the strictures of the background.

yes, you are in fact correct.
The Dark Angels get Techmarines training on the same level as EVERYBODY else.
According to 3rd ED CSM, DA, and BT the TechMarines of the Dark Angels


Do Dark Angels Techmarines therefore have (basically) the same level of training as the Techmarines of other Chapters?

Yes, I aggree with you 100%


And by extension, do the DA therefore have the same relationship/closeness to the Mechanicus as those same Chapters?

No, sorry i honestly do not see how that works out here.
Just because the DA get the same training that is received by the rest of the chapters, i don't see why the Dark angels are going to immediately the same equipment and trust as other groups of space marines who are... well... more trusted.


Why the Consecrators and Angels of Redemption specifically would be getting the same, best equipment as every one else, confuses me.

I dont think I'm wrong, im just tired of being told that looking at the rule books, and making conclusions that are diffrent than yours, means that i should mocked, when i don't apply that same behavior to others

MadDoc
14-11-2008, 23:42
WOW well i was going to try to be a nice girl here, and wow, this is what i get.
Lucky me

Hey, I never said you were intentionally doing that, but several of your posts came across in a way very much like that. I was simply pointing out that you didn't have to do that in order to disagree with people.


yes, you are in fact correct.
The Dark Angels get Techmarines training on the same level as EVERYBODY else.
According to 3rd ED CSM, DA, and BT the TechMarines of the Dark Angels

[SNIP Quote of myself]

Yes, I aggree with you 100%

So then, Jervis' off hand remark about how DA Techmarines just don't know how to maintain their kit would be wrong. As was Alessio's ill-considered attempt at a fluff justification.


No, sorry i honestly do not see how that works out here.

Sorry, but how? The DAs having the same compacts and trade agreements with the Mechanicum as other Marine Chapters (ancient treaties at that) leaves little room for confusion in my eyes.

Hell, the DA Codex even mentions that the DAs maintain/hold some of the oldest (and most advanced) tech in their Armoury.


Just because the DA get the same training that is received by the rest of the chapters, i don't see why the Dark angels are going to immediately the same equipment and trust as other groups of space marines who are... well... more trusted.

By the Administratum, which is seperate to the Mechanicum of Mars. Their trade and training compacts with the Legions (later Chapters) date back to the earliest days of the Imperium (even predating the Heresy in the case of First Founding Chapters). The Mechanicum keeps its own council on all things and when it does act in concert with the Administratum is generally because it agrees with their own agenda or because they're compelled to by compacts they have with the Imperium.


Why the Consecrators and Angels of Redemption specifically would be getting the same, best equipment as every one else, confuses me.

Why would the Brazen Claws or Celestial Lions or Angels Porphyr, etc.? All Marine Chapters operate independently and are trusted to a lesser or greater extent by various people within the Imperium as a result.


I dont think I'm wrong, im just tired of being told that looking at the rule books, and making conclusions that are diffrent than yours, means that i should mocked, when i don't apply that same behavior to others

Who is mocking? I'm seriously curious as to how you're drawing your conclusions. I'm going to assume you have access to most of the same source materials that I do, that being the case, I'm confused as to how you're drawing your conclusions. It seems like there's quite abit you're not taking into account. :confused:

Its almost like the only thing you're taking into consideration is a single piece of information, that the DA are not fully trusted by some in the Administratum, to the exclusion of everything else.

Hankyaku
19-11-2008, 08:56
Guys, this is like the third thread which deals with a house DA FAQ, or house DA mini-dex or whatever. There are already multiple versions of it (including my own, or MadDoc's). I suggest to continue such conversations in those forums - namely for example the "Dark Angels Codex" in the Rules Development forum (especially, since I see people not reading things, but complaining, that "this and this negative side was not taken").

Wintermute
19-11-2008, 18:11
And I suggest you allow this thread to continue without any further interference and stop trying to promote your own, or Mad Doc's thread.

Wintermute

Hankyaku
20-11-2008, 15:30
Hmm... it seems that my message didn't get out the last time.

So Wintermute how cute you are to suggets that!
Well the reason why I'm "promoting" "my" thread (which was BTW a thread created by the moderators since another one got a bit off topic) is that I read these pages and I see that in the topic I'm "promoting" all of these issues have ALREADY been discussed and got some SOLUTIONS, and SUGGESTIONS.

So what I see here again, is ppl coming in and keep repeating the "stop whining and s*ck it up" phrase, and the DA players wish to make them understand their reasoning, and point out GW's lazyness (several time, DA is just one in the line).
But HEY, this has been done 3 times!!!! Why start it again?!

In fact if aj40k would've read those thread, he would have gotten an answer to his questions already... he wouldn't probably have created this thread, and saved himself a lot of defence, yet he'd have gotten the information.
So why start a new thread, when there are already some threads discussing the whole thing???

MadDoc
21-11-2008, 12:06
And I suggest you allow this thread to continue without any further interference and stop trying to promote your own, or Mad Doc's thread.

Wintermute

I don't have a Dark Angel's Codex thread... :confused:

Kurisu313
21-11-2008, 17:16
I don't have a Dark Angel's Codex thread... :confused:

Read Hankyaku's post before wintermute's to see where the confusion comes from. Wintermute was responding to that.

Hankyaku
21-11-2008, 17:21
I don't have a Dark Angel's Codex thread... :confused:

Doc: Wintermute was referring to the topic, where we were discussing our own versions of the DA FAQ, or minidex, or whatever we came up with. (Of course it's easier speak before you actually checking up things.)
Truth be told, the forum I was referring to was neither mine, nor MadDoc's thread. It was created by the moderators, after I came up with my version of the minidex in the Rumors& discussion forum. The starting message selected by the moderators was mine, with the attachment (similar to aj40K). After that in the topic we discussed most of the questions raised here as well...

MadDoc
21-11-2008, 21:48
I read the posts leading up to Wintermute's post, the thing is, in his post Wintermute specifically referred to threads, and since I don't actually have a thread about this topic (purposefully, because I can guarantee it would've seen me being flamed senseless by DA haters), that was where the confusion arose...