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Zapherion
11-11-2008, 08:58
Anybody know any decent tactics for neutralising dragons? my friend plays a 2000 pt dark elf list against my WoC and i just cant seem to get to grips with it.
Cheers

Nicha11
11-11-2008, 09:18
With WOC you can probably magic it to death, Hellcannons can work,
as can getting your own dragon.

An interesting tactic i have been experimenting with is the MOS on a Giant.
(ASF Yell and Bawl is the funniest move in the game).

Zapherion
11-11-2008, 10:08
the hellcannon has been nerfed though, the giant can be avoided and magic is to hit and miss :(
thanks anyway

Goruax
11-11-2008, 10:08
Hit it with the Glaive of Putrefaction.
Then it really isn't all that :p

Tzeentch Exalted with Glaive, Talisman of Protection and Shield propelled by a Sorcerer casting Steed of Shadows on him from the Book of Secrets will hit it and if not take it down, neuter it from the game, combat wise.

Zapherion
11-11-2008, 10:15
ah now thats pretty good. im going to try that at some point :D sorry nicha11, i dismissed your giant plan a little to quickly. i think im going to give that a shot actually. cheers :)

NecronBob
11-11-2008, 11:18
I know you said magic was too unpredictable for your taste, and I don't know much about WoC's magic phase, but one of the most successful ways I've seen to deal with a dragon that I've send is to use Lore of Beast and "The Beast Cowers" against it.

I saw a player pin a HE dragon for 4 rounds out of 6 that way. The rest of the army folded pretty quick without the dragon.

Leth Shyish'phak
11-11-2008, 12:31
So yes, all you have to do is cast Beast Cowers with your Chaos Sorcerers :rolleyes: :eyebrows:

Zapherion
11-11-2008, 17:17
and how exactly am i suppose to do that? since chaos sorcerers cant take lore of beasts....

Chain
11-11-2008, 17:44
Well you also have special character that should be able to do the work.

That Suneater/Starcrusher dragon Ogre should be more then enough

OldMaster
11-11-2008, 18:29
Don't take it for granted he may/wants to use special characters, Chain.

I think I'd make a combination of buying a dragon yourself and using the Glaive of Putrefaction. Maybe give the Glaive to the Lord?

I guess your friend won't charge a tooled-up unit head-on? Otherwise you wouldn't have problems with it..

Zapherion
11-11-2008, 18:33
nope, hes annoyingly sensible in that regard...he flies around my units flaming them until they are managably small n then charges in and wipes them out :(

vampalexjc
11-11-2008, 18:39
shoot it, and keep shooting it until it goes away. cannons, magic missiles, even S3 longbows. they are going to hit easily (large target), and even S3 will be wounding on sixes if it is T5. Dwarf handgunners are hitting on threes, long range, wounding on fives, if it has a scaly skin sv of 4+ then it has a sv of six plus - not good for it. 10 handgunners will give it about 2 wounds taken of, mebbe 1 if you are unlucky.
otherwise go 4 knights

Goruax
11-11-2008, 22:21
Dragons are standardly T6.
Most also have a Scaly Skin of 3+.

10 Dwarf Handgunners will do 1 most of the time, if lucky.
Long Range: 3's to hit: 7 hit
6's to wound: 1 wounds
-1 armour, 4+ save: 0.5 wounds.

vampalexjc
12-11-2008, 17:56
s'pose, though they are also armour pierceing. i guess they would take an awfully long time to kill them, and by then it would be there

then i guess its cannons you'll have to use, or knights
blood knights - 4 with a champ have 13 attacks
WS 5 so they might be hitting on 4's.
6 hit, S7, with lances. Wounding on 3's with no sv. mebbe 4 wounds.

Von Wibble
12-11-2008, 18:18
(ASF Yell and Bawl is the funniest move in the game).

No it isn't

ASF stuff an entire unit down your trousers is.

Magic - lore of slaanesh has a lot of good spells. Only 1 magic item that can make dark elves itp on a dragon (and if he has it he won't have the pendant). Titillating delusions will neutralise it and open it up to a rear charge from your troops of choice. Chances are he won't be in range of hotek.

FigureFour
12-11-2008, 18:46
shoot it, and keep shooting it until it goes away.
While that is a valid tactic, he DID say he was using Warriors of Chaos . . .


Don't take it for granted he may/wants to use special characters, Chain.
I think that's a little harsh. Not everyone is so irrationally opposed to special characters that they balk at even the suggestion of using one. It works, and is just as valid as taking the Glaive or another dragon.


To actually contribute, I think all the best options have been suggested.
Being WoC limits your options, you can try Infernal Gateway for magic (There are other spells that may work as well. The Nurgle spell that reduces S and T could help.) or try to tool up a character to take it down.

If you go the character route, you might want to invest in a source of mobility to be able to catch the dragon. The Steed of Shadows spell is good, as is a Disc of Tzeentch of Steed of Slaanesh.

w3rm
12-11-2008, 21:27
I HATE dragons. Chosen Knights probably wont be able to do it but 9 chosen with lances and a hero with glaive thingy(note i do not play WoCvso i dont know the ponts of items). the tricky part would be charging it :(.

John Wayne II
12-11-2008, 21:33
Dragons are standardly T6.
Most also have a Scaly Skin of 3+.

10 Dwarf Handgunners will do 1 most of the time, if lucky.
Long Range: 3's to hit: 7 hit
6's to wound: 1 wounds
-1 armour, 4+ save: 0.5 wounds.

Dwarven handgunners are armour piercing. So the Dragon would have a 5+ save against their fire.


then i guess its cannons you'll have to use, or knights
blood knights - 4 with a champ have 13 attacks
WS 5 so they might be hitting on 4's.
6 hit, S7, with lances. Wounding on 3's with no sv. mebbe 4 wounds.

What drugs are you on? Because I want some. Either that or you should improve your reading comprehension; the guy plays WOC. Cannons and Blood Knights...lolz. :wtf: :p

theunwantedbeing
12-11-2008, 21:56
Hellcannon.
St5(10) D6 wounds.

Prettymuch any chaos hero has a noticable chance of taking off at least one of its limbs.

Note that dragons are st6 in general.
So an armour save of -1+ will mean you get a 2+ save against hits from one.
Even a star dragon only reduces that save to a "mere" 3+.
Considering a hero on a juggernaught has a 1+ save before he wonders about bothering with a sheild or not, you can easily get a 0+ save or that -1+ save to make yourself virtually impervious to damage from a dragon.

Father of blades.
Dragons do hit plenty hard enough to hurt another dragon (more so in the case of a star dragon).

Firestorm blade, D3+1 wounds per wound inflicted. With 5st5 attacks you can quite easily take down 2+ wounds from a dragon. Slight bit of luck and you can remove the entire thing in a single go.
(2 wounds caused you roll average for the D3, that's 6 wounds caused...one dead dragon)

Catching a dragon merely requires you to get it to commit to an attack against something where you can either hold it in place a turn, or get it to charge and stop in a specific location through either overrunning or not bothering to persue (or maybe you simply fled and got caught).

A dragon that is flying around using it's breath weapon is not working to its full potential.

Goruax
12-11-2008, 22:43
There are no 'Chosen' Knights anymore, only Knights.
With Warriors in particular, I'd go for a Spawn to hit it and hold it, then whack in a Lord/Exalted with the Glaive, maybe with the Helm of Many Eyes, if you can bait him into charging his unit.

Kahadras
12-11-2008, 23:15
Dragons are a problem for WoC. I'd sugest trying to magic it or take a giant and try to ward it away from your vulnerable flanks. Many armies suffer against Dragon unfortunatly (my all elf Wood Elves are going to hate it when my mate finaly gets his High Elf Lord on Dragon painted up).

Kahadras

Daemonia
13-11-2008, 00:38
Depending on the type of Dragon and its rider (geared Prince on Star Dragon FTL), I'm guessing my planned WoC army will have to rely -sadly- on a Khorne Lord with Khorne Knights charging and chewing him up if at all possible...there really isn't anything else in my list that can do it.

CGLover
13-11-2008, 06:04
A Q not fully of topic:
If using the Helm of Many Eyes and trying to bait the dragon, when do you declare that you have a magic item that does (smth)? When you test for stupidity for the first time or when you ASF in combat?

OldMaster
13-11-2008, 13:53
While that is a valid tactic, he DID say he was using Warriors of Chaos . . .


I think that's a little harsh. Not everyone is so irrationally opposed to special characters that they balk at even the suggestion of using one. It works, and is just as valid as taking the Glaive or another dragon.


To actually contribute, I think all the best options have been suggested.
Being WoC limits your options, you can try Infernal Gateway for magic (There are other spells that may work as well. The Nurgle spell that reduces S and T could help.) or try to tool up a character to take it down.

If you go the character route, you might want to invest in a source of mobility to be able to catch the dragon. The Steed of Shadows spell is good, as is a Disc of Tzeentch of Steed of Slaanesh.


A Q not fully of topic:
If using the Helm of Many Eyes and trying to bait the dragon, when do you declare that you have a magic item that does (smth)? When you test for stupidity for the first time or when you ASF in combat?

You must declare the item when it's effect is used first. So, when you test for Stupidity.

By the way, theunwantedbeing, since when do Hellcannons do D6 wounds?

conatchi
14-11-2008, 12:03
Prettymuch any chaos hero has a noticable chance of taking off at least one of its limbs.

Note that dragons are st6 in general.
So an armour save of -1+ will mean you get a 2+ save against hits from one.
Even a star dragon only reduces that save to a "mere" 3+.
Considering a hero on a juggernaught has a 1+ save before he wonders about bothering with a sheild or not, you can easily get a 0+ save or that -1+ save to make yourself virtually impervious to damage from a dragon.


sorry but i think you are mistaken here, unless specified on the item itself no armour save can go below 1+, so your math is of, at best you have a 4+ armour save against dragons or a 5+ against star dragons

idiotproof dalek
14-11-2008, 12:39
You'll get the glaive trick off once, until your opponent gives his high elf lord the talisman which nullifies your magic weapon, and hits your lord with the star lance ignoring his -1+ armour save.

Raverrn
14-11-2008, 12:46
sorry but i think you are mistaken here, unless specified on the item itself no armour save can go below 1+, so your math is of, at best you have a 4+ armour save against dragons or a 5+ against star dragons

It's the other way around. Your Armor save CAN go below 1+, unless specified on the item.

Godgolden
14-11-2008, 14:40
asf giant would be effective.. but he could dance around it all day

your own dragon with lord would be a good match up but he has many more options of killing a dragon...

is a tuffie, and if hes any kind of sensible, would avoid knights and characters.

slaanesh lore if getting off could decimate it of course... making him compulsory move infront of your line to recieve the charge from evey unit there would be so sweet.

or casting the one where he needs a leadership test to hit you.. thats always funny, its risky but again.. funny lol

then again many lores can kill it if your super lucky.

edit: thats a swear word? lol

Havock
14-11-2008, 15:49
The spawn will probably die before holding it beyond the first CC phase :p

Answer: Your own lord on a dragon should do the trick, just butcher the dragon, the pointy-eared limpwrist on top probably has the reverse wardsave.

Von Wibble
14-11-2008, 17:09
Oldmaster - the hellcannon is a S5/10 stone thrower. The model under the hole takes D6 wounds becasue this is the rule for a stone thrower.

Hauclir
17-11-2008, 01:12
The dragon in question is ridden by a Dreadlord, with the Armour of Darkness, Pendant of Khaeleth, and the Crimson Death, with a Repeater Crossbow. Thought Id weigh in here out of interest and ensure im not caught out next time we battle :P

Godgolden: I always try to be sensible, more because im terrified of most of his army as theyre fully capable of knocking the mount out from under me!