View Full Version : help with the lost and the damned!

Lord Asuryan
12-11-2008, 16:03
Recently, I was looking for a new army (3000 points of daemons and I'm done) and chanced upon the lost and the damned pdf. to my surprise, I really liked it, pArticularly the ability to combine chaos and guard-and mutants look fun to model. Anyway, I have a few questions about the codex in regard to other codices.

1. How do you use daemon packs/beasts/greater daemons? would you use the old rules (3rd ed CSM) for clarity-this is the book the pdf was written with, after all, use the profiles from the daemon books,with the normal rules for summoning, or (I really hope not) use the rules for generic greater/lesser daemons from the new codex CSM (sounds boring):cries:

2. What codex should I use for CSM allies? old or new? normally I'd say new, but several fundamnetal things have changed, and using the new one disallows use of incredibly fluffy obliterators and replaces them with ot-so-fluffy chaos dreadnoughts.

3. same question for the up and coming IG codex-when it comes out, should we use new sentinel rules? leman russ rules? rough riders? etc.

thanks for your time. ;)

12-11-2008, 16:38
As you said, the LatD armylist is based on two codices where one is no longer "legal" and the other will soon stop being legal too. Also, the list in itself is also no longer "legal".

So, you can really do whatever you want. Its opponents consent anyway, since almost everything in the list will have new rules compared to what was in play when the list was written (Chaos characters, daemons, oblits, chaos marines, chaos marks, spawns, Defilers, possessed, chaos veterans, wargear and soon most of the IG parts too, like the tanks and rough riders.)

There really is no way of telling if the list is balanced or not. Only using the old rules will produce some powerful units (oblits, chaos champions and arguably chaos marines with some veteran skills), some balanced units (mutants and spawns are priced about right for their abilities) and some very weak units (Guardsmen with Ld6 for 8 pts was way to much when the list was released, and if the new guardsmen go for 4 pts a head its really just absurd).

Using the new rules will take some thinking and compromising, and could easily result i a horribly overpowered list (4 pt guardsmen with their tanks, supported by Chaos marines from the new codex and a new defiler will steamroll many armies I think.)

Whatever way you do it, it will require that you and your opponent sit down and discuss what is a fitting solution.

Or you could just make a Chaos Marine army, an IG army and use the mutants from the Witchhunter codex and play apocalypse.

12-11-2008, 16:41
My best suggestion would be to use the siege of Vrakks books from FW.

Otherwise, as has been said, you're likely to end up with some weird combos rules and 'fairness' wise

Lord Asuryan
12-11-2008, 16:42
insofar as traitors go, the only change I was thinking of maing was making the 5 points per model, allowing infiltrate for 2 points per model (you end up paying WAY too much for infiltrate when in a transport,led by an aspiring, etc. also allowing the traitors to take a second special weapon if they forgo the heavy.

also, assuming I used the old rules, I would obviously have to be careful to deliberatel avoid any possible cheesiness, at least until the list is generally accepted by the people I play against. still, haven't really gottwn an answer to my q's.

12-11-2008, 16:56
I have/had a LatD army, and I always want to be able to take a second special weapon, and not have to pay for infiltrate when in a chimera for the Traitors, but the list was the list way back when it was still legal. IG don't get to take 2 special weapons in their Armoured Fist squads, and I don't think the Traitors should be better equipped than the loyalists.

I also felt that 5 pts per model was a reasonable price for the guardsmen. But when I played the list, I realized that guards with orks (mutants are almost like orks) with marines is a really powerful combination, and they are alot better in combination than on their own. so the points was quite fitting.

Or really, the guards should cost less, the mutants are about right, and marines should cost more, but then they would need to give em a complete codex.

Anyway, the answer to your question is
"no, you cant use that armylist. Its for a different edition of the game, and does not work for this edition. You might as well try and start a Squat army. both armies are dead and gone."

But thats not really true, since you can do whatever you want if your opponent is ok with it. It does require you to discuss this with those you play against before you play.

For example, i have some Collossus Mercs (a sort of tyranid creature, mentioned in the nid codex), with homegrown rules based on creaturefeature and the nid codex. My friends all think the rules are fine and balanced now (after some playtesting and tweaking), so now I can include them without asking beforehand.

Using this armylist is essentially the same thing as using your home-grown rules, so it would require you to ask you opponent beforehand, and playtest them quite alot. You are more or less making your own armylist, so be prepared for people not wanting to play you.

Lord Asuryan
12-11-2008, 17:26
I suppose, then, the best way to plat it is as is, with the old chaos book, and current IG one, as that is how it was balanced to begin with.

12-11-2008, 22:43
Just use the Tempus Fugitives list. It updates it wonderfully and you're going to be playing friendly games with it anyway, so "legality"* is no issue. If you want it just drop me your email in a PM ;)

*Not that there are any hard and fast tournament rules, as TO's can make up their own rules.