PDA

View Full Version : Why none of the races can win



weissengel86
13-11-2008, 02:42
People always say one race or another will eventually win. The most popular contenders are tyranids, necrons, and chaos. The problem is none of them can really win some can and most likely will survive but winning is a very long shot.

The tyranids are probably the most poular contender for winning but people seem to miss the pretty much insurmountable challenges the tyranids have to overcome. We all know that supposedly just outside the galaxy are countless tyranids just waiting to devour us all. The imperium estimates that to stop the next invasion would require an increase in manpower for the IG of at least 500% which would make every able bodied person required to join the ranks. While this may sound like the galaxy has no hope it is very misleading for several reasons.
1) The imperium is not the only faction to oppose the tyranids
2) Many other factions that oppose the tyranids are extremely powerful themselves.
If the imperium faced the tyranids by themselves then the imperium probably would be destroyed but the fact is the nids are opposed to the necrons, chaos, tau, orks, eldar, and many other more minor races. none of these races would ever allow the tyranids to consume the galaxy. Chaos would not nor would the necrons nor the tau nor the eldar nor just about anybody else. Imagine what would happen to the tyranids if chaos or the necrons took an offensive stance against them? The necrons would be able to destroy th etyranids in massive amounts and the nids would not be allowed to recover any biomass at all against them. Nids versus necrons is a major loss for the nids. If chaos took to attacking the nids they would have to deal with corruption and possesion and mutation (a very bad mutation unlike what nids normally want). Nids really cannot win despite their massive amount of forces the opposition arrayed against them is at least as mind boggling large and powerful as the nids.

As for the necrons they have the same problem. For one chaos would be extremely motivated to stop the necrons as if the necrons succeed chaos will be completely and utterly destroyed in its entirety. The necrons must face evry single other force in the galaxy including the nids. If the nids consume the galaxy then the ctan will be forced to feed on stars or even be destroyed entirely. The necrons will have nothing and basically will be utterly useless to the ctan unless they possibly left to another galaxy but even then they will have to stop the nids.

Personally I think chaos is the only one that actually has any possibilty of winning although it is very slight. If the necrons succeed in sealing the warp off from real space though chaos will be destroyed forever and if the tyranids consume the galaxy the chaos gods will probably starve to death from lack of "emotional nutrient". If the emperor is reincarnated (or becomes warp god) or the eldar god ynnead ever awakens then chaos will be in serious trouble. Many things could happen that would be very detrimental to chaos and they have to overcome many different forces. If chaos hasnt been able to destroy the imperium in ten thousand years why should they be able to destroy not only the imperium but the necrons the tyranids the eldar the tau or the orks?

I dont see how any of these forces could actually defeat the entire galaxy without having impenetrable plot armour like the tau have or the ultramarines.

Kage2020
13-11-2008, 02:53
Chaos will win... eventually. In the distant future.

Amusingly since reading the book, I've always felt that a City at the End of Time (Greg Bear) adventure would be an interesting exploration of 40k RPG! :D

Kage

sydbridges
13-11-2008, 03:12
As for the necrons they have the same problem. For one chaos would be extremely motivated to stop the necrons as if the necrons succeed chaos will be completely and utterly destroyed in its entirety. The necrons must face evry single other force in the galaxy including the nids. If the nids consume the galaxy then the ctan will be forced to feed on stars or even be destroyed entirely. The necrons will have nothing and basically will be utterly useless to the ctan unless they possibly left to another galaxy but even then they will have to stop the nids.

I don't think the Necrons would (or could) destroy Chaos. They seem to be willing to settle for sealing off the Immaterium from the physical universe. Presumably the Warp would still exist, it just would have absolutely no way to influence the material world - certainly an unfavorable result for Chaos.


Personally I think chaos is the only one that actually has any possibilty of winning although it is very slight. If the necrons succeed in sealing the warp off from real space though chaos will be destroyed forever and if the tyranids consume the galaxy the chaos gods will probably starve to death from lack of "emotional nutrient". If the emperor is reincarnated (or becomes warp god) or the eldar god ynnead ever awakens then chaos will be in serious trouble. Many things could happen that would be very detrimental to chaos and they have to overcome many different forces. If chaos hasnt been able to destroy the imperium in ten thousand years why should they be able to destroy not only the imperium but the necrons the tyranids the eldar the tau or the orks?

I dont see how any of these forces could actually defeat the entire galaxy without having impenetrable plot armour like the tau have or the ultramarines.

I'd agree that Chaos hasn't even been able to conquer the Imperium, which is made up of beings it can influence easily - given that, it is unlikely to also be able to defeat the races where Chaos has little hold, such as the 'Nids, the Necrons, the Orks, or the Tau.

Personally, I think the 'Nids are the most likely contenders to win in the end given what we currently know - which is just that they're an alien race so powerful that they can actually enter our galaxy from another galaxy and so vast that they've felt any sort of need to leave their own galaxy rather than continuing expanding there. If they are as vast as they seem to be, by sheer numbers I would expect them to win. Even against foes with a poor or highly negative investment/return ratio such as the Necrons, the 'Nids appear to be easily able to afford to throw away the troops necessary to at least force the Necrons off their worlds under such a model.

Of course, if the reason they've left their own galaxy is that something there is even more horrible than them, and they're not so much invading our galaxy as fleeing their own, then that changes things quite a bit...

kylsnik ironhead
13-11-2008, 03:22
the Nids ate their galaxy so are moving into the 40k galaxy looking for food?

MrBigMr
13-11-2008, 04:02
I'd agree that Chaos hasn't even been able to conquer the Imperium, which is made up of beings it can influence easily - given that, it is unlikely to also be able to defeat the races where Chaos has little hold, such as the 'Nids, the Necrons, the Orks, or the Tau.
Why would Chaos need to take over by force? As long as there's things stirring up the place, the Gods are happy. It's usually the worshipers that want to conquer, want to use their powers for something.

Besides, humans just happen to be easy enough to corrupt and there's plenty of them to go around. 'Nids, Orks and even Tau are susceptible to Chaos corruption, it's just like renewable energy forms: no need for them as long as there's stuff to burn. If humans suddenly disappeared, Chaos would move onto other things.

Besides, Orks are rather Chaotic already, so why bother corrupting them?


What do I think? No one wins, everyone loses. In the end, when the dust settles and I had to pick a race that gets to stare blankly as the last star dies and darkness takes over the universe, I would say Necrons. Hear me out first. They're quite independent. They regenerate at a fast rate, have amazing durability, etc. They don't need food, air, anything of the sort. Their gods most likely get killed sooner or later, races come and go, but the living metal machines would carry on, as a testament to the Necrontyr.

So I think that when the end time comes, it'll be the undead machines that get to stand and watch the world end, like they have watched all the empires come and go. Maybe deep down they'll be happy, knowing within their consciousness that it is finally all over, that death is possible. Maybe one of them is able to summon up a mercury tear from the corner of its eyes before existence ceases to be.

abasio
13-11-2008, 11:55
Chaos has already won
They have a galaxy that continues to feed them more & more & more.
Isn't that what they want? They don't want to destroy everyone, then they themselves would disappear. This dark future of constant war & decay constantly feed Khorne & Nurgle. Only Slaanesh & Tzeentch have to even bother trying ;)

Adra
13-11-2008, 13:02
Only the squats can win....i mean they have survived GW destroying them so they must be the hardest race....

CthulhuDalek
13-11-2008, 23:02
Nids win.

Shadow in the warp absorbs Warp energy. They literally eat the immaterium and make it impossible to travel there until it fills back up.

The forces of chaos are of little concern to the nid fleet. All they really need to do is consume massive quantities of Human and Orks, avoid chaos and necrons for a while and once imperium and greenies are out of the way--the nids will have eaten enough.

Nids being a psychic race, as well as the most rapidly evolving, means within a hundred years they could develop psychic weapons capable of destroying C'tan eventually.

Havock
13-11-2008, 23:09
Of course, if the reason they've left their own galaxy is that something there is even more horrible than them, and they're not so much invading our galaxy as fleeing their own, then that changes things quite a bit...


Why won't they flee? We try everything, yet they stay, what atrocities must I inflict to get them on the run!? We have to run little ones, run!


So the 'nids would be the good guys in a grimdark kind of way :p

PotatoLegs
14-11-2008, 00:31
Why no mention of the Orks? psht

Koryphaus
14-11-2008, 00:35
For one chaos would be extremely motivated to stop the necrons as if the necrons succeed chaos will be completely and utterly destroyed in its entirety.

That's assuming that there is absolutely no other life in the galaxy whatsoever. A big assumption.

sydbridges
14-11-2008, 01:58
Why won't they flee? We try everything, yet they stay, what atrocities must I inflict to get them on the run!? We have to run little ones, run!


So the 'nids would be the good guys in a grimdark kind of way :p

I hadn't really considered the 'Nids as having noble methods... I figure it'd be more like an axe-murderer deciding to kill some of your neighbors and take up residence in your apartment building because the previous apartment complex he was living in was condemned. You might sympathize with his homelessness plight, but he's still not really someone you want next door.

TheOverlord
14-11-2008, 02:09
The Shadow in the Warp absorbs... I'm sorry what? I don't believe I've heard this before, isn't the Shadow of the Warp simply so much psychic noise that is DROWNS out the warp like the locusts blots out the sun?

Firaxin
14-11-2008, 02:56
The Shadow in the Warp absorbs... I'm sorry what? I don't believe I've heard this before, isn't the Shadow of the Warp simply so much psychic noise that is DROWNS out the warp like the locusts blots out the sun?
That was my interpretation of it too... certainly warp travel is still possible within the shadow, otherwise Kryptman would never have left Tyran. And the Hive fleet might have hit Macragge without forewarning. Meaning the Ultramarines would be all dead, without the help of the segmentum's fleets. The tau would be dead with no ultramarines to protect them (and against a hivefleet with super-bugs based on marine genetics).

Behemoth would be stopped eventually I'm sure, but it would do incredible damage to the galaxy first. Kraken might be the deathblow, certainly Leviathan would have finished off the Imperium without Kryptman around to divert the 'nids into the Orks.

WastedWhiteBoy
14-11-2008, 03:24
Chaos will win... eventually. In the distant future.

Amusingly since reading the book, I've always felt that a City at the End of Time (Greg Bear) adventure would be an interesting exploration of 40k RPG! :D

Kage

I'm curious...why do you think Chaos will be the ultimate winner?

CthulhuDalek
14-11-2008, 03:36
That was my interpretation of it too... certainly warp travel is still possible within the shadow, otherwise Kryptman would never have left Tyran. And the Hive fleet might have hit Macragge without forewarning. Meaning the Ultramarines would be all dead, without the help of the segmentum's fleets. The tau would be dead with no ultramarines to protect them (and against a hivefleet with super-bugs based on marine genetics).

Behemoth would be stopped eventually I'm sure, but it would do incredible damage to the galaxy first. Kraken might be the deathblow, certainly Leviathan would have finished off the Imperium without Kryptman around to divert the 'nids into the Orks.

I don't recall where I heard that it absorbs the psychic energy, but the fluff does say that warp travel is so dangerous and nearly impossible--while the nids are around that it's practically hopeless.

It also says that the passing of the nids basically "scars" warpspace around where they've travelled in ways that really freak out psykers.

They do say that most communication is cut off.

If it was true that they absorb warp energy, the warp energy would still try to fill the vacuum left in the nids wake--but it might take a while.

MrBigMr
14-11-2008, 03:39
I'm curious...why do you think Chaos will be the ultimate winner?
Because it has total of 3 fears:
-Necron plot to seal off the galaxy, which isn't going very well and seeing how the pylons on Cadia are starting to give in, it isn't going to be an easy thing to do.
-Starchild comes and kicks their ass. Maybe it'll happen, maybe not.
-Ynnead, though I think this only applies to Slaanesh.

Apart from that there's not much to stop Chaos. Everything corrupts. Hell, even rocks and weapons deform and become evil spirited little bastards. How do you fight something like that? With happy feelings and Buddhism?


But the great folly of Chaos is that it depends on us. If they destroy the world, they also destroy their powerbase and die in time. Chaos depends on the mortal world.

Kage2020
14-11-2008, 03:58
But the great folly of Chaos is that it depends on us. If they destroy the world, they also destroy their powerbase and die in time. Chaos depends on the mortal world.
We have a winner!

...Except if Chaos reaches a point where it believes in itself. Erm, whatever that might mean. Again, though, check out City at the End of Time. If that doesn't make you laugh your a*s off by going, "Hey, that could be the Emperor!" and "Hey! That's Chaos!" I will be surprised... ;)

Kage

TheOverlord
14-11-2008, 04:05
No I think you're misinterpreting how the Shadow works. It doesn't scar the warp, the warp is immaterial you can't leave a physical blemish on it like it was some kind of tunnel or something. Psykers go crazy in the wake of the Shadow simply because it is like living in a huge cave and a megaton bomb goes off, the sound would deafen you to the point of bursting your ear drums and jiggle your brains into mush.

The Shadow is simply billions upon billions of noisy little critters sending each other love/hate-mails or whatever over an incredibly large portion of warpspace, sending so much static over the area that any kind of psychic communication is lost in the lag of so many users at one time. Kind of like how too many players in a single place in an MMO crashes the server. It is also not impossible to travel during the Shadow, it's simply really dangerous because those critters are in the way.

Think of it this way. The Shadow are really just clouds, big big angry clouds that covers the sky in angry black thunderstorms and makes flying or telephone calls really dangerous, and blocks our your satellite from making internet connections. Sure sometimes it breaks enough that you can send maybe 1 message out, but that's only if you're lucky and you might also invite lightning to strike your satellite after you're done.

It doesn't do ANYTHING to the warp other than make a nuisance of itself for a brief period of time before passing on.

weissengel86
14-11-2008, 05:24
That's assuming that there is absolutely no other life in the galaxy whatsoever. A big assumption.
no that is assuming the necrons seal off the warp from realspace and since the chaos gods existence is based on and comes from the negative emotions of beings in real space they wouldnt exactly do to well.

Famder
14-11-2008, 06:55
Orks win. Either way there's a good fight to be had. Orks always win.

CthulhuDalek
14-11-2008, 08:32
No I think you're misinterpreting how the Shadow works. It doesn't scar the warp, the warp is immaterial you can't leave a physical blemish on it like it was some kind of tunnel or something. Psykers go crazy in the wake of the Shadow simply because it is like living in a huge cave and a megaton bomb goes off, the sound would deafen you to the point of bursting your ear drums and jiggle your brains into mush.

The Shadow is simply billions upon billions of noisy little critters sending each other love/hate-mails or whatever over an incredibly large portion of warpspace, sending so much static over the area that any kind of psychic communication is lost in the lag of so many users at one time. Kind of like how too many players in a single place in an MMO crashes the server. It is also not impossible to travel during the Shadow, it's simply really dangerous because those critters are in the way.

Think of it this way. The Shadow are really just clouds, big big angry clouds that covers the sky in angry black thunderstorms and makes flying or telephone calls really dangerous, and blocks our your satellite from making internet connections. Sure sometimes it breaks enough that you can send maybe 1 message out, but that's only if you're lucky and you might also invite lightning to strike your satellite after you're done.

It doesn't do ANYTHING to the warp other than make a nuisance of itself for a brief period of time before passing on.


I don't understand, then, how it could leave warp turmoil in its wake when it had already passed on. Not to mention, it isn't really all the individual creatures of the hive, but the overall big booming hive mind.

King Vyper
14-11-2008, 08:41
Everyone knows the the Orks will be the last race standing when the stars go dark. They are the cockroaches of the universe.

CthulhuDalek
14-11-2008, 09:13
Everyone knows the the Orks will be the last race standing when the stars go dark. They are the cockroaches of the universe.

Yeah, but something has gotta eat cockroaches, right? *devouuuuurrrr*

MrBigMr
14-11-2008, 09:21
Everyone knows the the Orks will be the last race standing when the stars go dark.They are the cockroaches of the universe.
We're all black orcs once all the stars go out.


We have a winner!
Thread closed.


Again, though, check out City at the End of Time. If that doesn't make you laugh your a*s off by going, "Hey, that could be the Emperor!" and "Hey! That's Chaos!" I will be surprised... ;)
The what now?

Havock
14-11-2008, 10:42
I hadn't really considered the 'Nids as having noble methods... I figure it'd be more like an axe-murderer deciding to kill some of your neighbors and take up residence in your apartment building because the previous apartment complex he was living in was condemned. You might sympathize with his homelessness plight, but he's still not really someone you want next door.

I know, but it would be funny, the hivemind trying to infiltrate governments to just get the sentients out of there, after which it would employ a 'scorched earth tactic' to deny whatever is coming after it. It owuld be funny, and wrong :p

Kage2020
14-11-2008, 13:38
The what now?
Best just to read it, but think re-born Emperor sits atop a new Golden Throne, the last vestiges of humanity surrounding him (a psychic humanity, of course), while Chaos boils around the last city of the humans, possibly the last city in the galaxy. All that protects them from annihilation is a thin field of psychic energy--a Geller Field that continues to fail. Innevitable destruction...

Tweak with a bit of additional information and, well, it might be a fun one-off adventure for RP. :D

Kage

MrBigMr
14-11-2008, 13:58
Best just to read it
Right after I read Pawns of Chaos, Blind, Eye of Terror, Eisenhorn Trilogy, Ravenor Trilogy, Eldar Prophesy, Liber Chaotica, Munitorum Manual, Dark Adeptus, finish my studies, get a job, cure cancer, write a new benchmark in literary history, win a Nobel for said writing, score a girlfriend, dump her, score a boyfriend, shrug it off as an experiment, get back with the girl, marry her, get kids, turn out to be a bad dad and husband, go through mid-life crisis, buy a bike, do drugs, run the bike into a wall, spend years in rehab, travel the world some more, grow old, realize at the tender age of 65 that I actually was gay all along and proceed to live the rest of my days as a crippled old fairy. Then I'll read it.

Man has to have priorities in life, you know.

weissengel86
14-11-2008, 19:45
Right after I read Pawns of Chaos, Blind, Eye of Terror, Eisenhorn Trilogy, Ravenor Trilogy, Eldar Prophesy, Liber Chaotica, Munitorum Manual, Dark Adeptus, finish my studies, get a job, cure cancer, write a new benchmark in literary history, win a Nobel for said writing, score a girlfriend, dump her, score a boyfriend, shrug it off as an experiment, get back with the girl, marry her, get kids, turn out to be a bad dad and husband, go through mid-life crisis, buy a bike, do drugs, run the bike into a wall, spend years in rehab, travel the world some more, grow old, realize at the tender age of 65 that I actually was gay all along and proceed to live the rest of my days as a crippled old fairy. Then I'll read it.

Man has to have priorities in life, you know. that should take what? 10-20 minutes? Just use your time machine. You do have a time machine right?

Wheres is City at the end of time? Id like to read it. It sounds familiar too.

The Overmind
16-11-2008, 03:36
The whole thing depends on how you look at it.

I believe that it will come down to Tyranids, Necrons, Tau and Orks. Why? Read On:

Tyranids: They've already eaten one galaxy, I mean really, there 2,321,544,210,867 to the power of fifty billion of them out there as far as anyone knows. They will eat everything, and dismantle or starve anything else (Necrons and Chaos, *cough cough*)

Necrons: Have a good chance of beating the Tyranids, but other than that they are too easily contained. From my list they are the first to die. They probably will seal the immaterium, how though i have no idea.

Tau: They will be bolstered by the Imperium as once the IG realise they can't win it's Gue'la all around. However they will eventually be pushed back into their small empire and then exterminated, probably by the Tyranids.

Orks: The main contender to Tyranids. Isn't there a fight going between 'Nids and Orks somewhere in the galaxy? (apart from me trying to decide which army to collect between the two) Whoever wins gets massive Kudos. Tyranids win: eat all Ork DNA, get huge power bonus, the other races are screwed.
Orks win: Will put on so much extra muscle from the long fight that they will be the strongest race in the universe. The other races are screwed.

That's how it will work. Chaos don't really stand a chance as far as I can tell. Since the Horus Heresy they haven't managed to do much more than convert the odd SM Company or IG Platoon.

Kage2020
16-11-2008, 03:39
Right after I read Pawns of Chaos, Blind, Eye of Terror, Eisenhorn Trilogy, Ravenor Trilogy, Eldar Prophesy, Liber Chaotica, Munitorum Manual, Dark Adeptus...
Those, as with any BL novel, you can pretty much ignore.


finish my studies
Well, since that's never ever - hopefully! - going to end, then you're in trouble.

On the other hand, if a book recommendation is a problem with you, then fair enough.


Man has to have priorities in life, you know.
Seemingly. Let me know when you get some. :P

Kage

Hellebore
16-11-2008, 03:41
None of the races can win because:

|
|
|

|
|
|

|
|
|
______>$

Hellebore

Kage2020
16-11-2008, 03:45
Hellebore winzah! ;)

Kage

avatar of kaine
16-11-2008, 10:54
according to several bits of fluff everyone will die...
Eldar: rahna dandra
imperial: some form of final battle when the primarchs are ressurected(don't know what its called)
Tau: the mon'tau (i think thats whta its called) although this is civil war. farsight enclaves vs. the greater good?

MrBigMr
16-11-2008, 11:10
imperial: some form of final battle when the primarchs are ressurected(don't know what its called)
Wolftime?


Tau: the mon'tau (i think thats whta its called) although this is civil war. farsight enclaves vs. the greater good?
Mont'au is more of a reference to chaos (as in the opposite of order, not Chaos), insanity and violence. It's what preceeded the time before the coming of the Ethereals and it is the danger they face if they don't keep themselves together.

genestealer_baldric
17-11-2008, 15:43
i reckon it will be nids because due to every battlemakes them stronger quicker ,smater and learns the enemys tatics means they can evolve to counter any single, race and once the wipe out humanity and it will damage chaos alot weaking it alot which will lead to its doom,

Eldar well there is only a few left of them they fighting a losing battle,

Necons well its all down to saftey in numbers they can only kill so many nids b4 being overwelmed

tau well a disgrunted ant could beat one up in combat

Dark eldar well i mean what they going to do but provide a moments distraction between meals

Orks are the only real problem but if the nids only win 1 more battle than the orks at a time then it will lead to long but slow loss of worlds and resorces to the nids and there doom.

then nids get board and drift of else where allowing the universing to slowly regenarate, think of the nids as re-formating the universe`s hard drive, 4 a fresh install of life

genestealer_baldric
17-11-2008, 15:45
opps pressed button twice

Leviro
17-11-2008, 17:35
re-formating the universe`s hard drive, 4 a fresh install of life

i like that idea, but itll be a few million years, and by then tyranids will be bored of eating things, and itll all come out the other end :D

spartainubzy
17-11-2008, 21:57
Only the squats can win....i mean they have survived GW destroying them so they must be the hardest race....

sorry nids full ate em n dey waS yummeh